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High Horsepower Fiero's? How much is the limit. by Capt Fiero
Started on: 06-29-2016 03:23 AM
Replies: 76 (1957 views)
Last post by: Capt Fiero on 07-21-2016 03:58 AM
E.Furgal
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Report this Post07-03-2016 01:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Um what? First of all, how "light" is a "light" car? The bloody C6 ZR1 puts out over 500 HP at the wheels, as does the new Z06. Even at 3500 lbs, the Z06 is 1500 lbs lighter than a Tesla Model S, of which the P85D puts out quite an amount of power to all four wheels.

We're not talking about road race cars running at 7000 RPM constantly.

Having a 500 WHP street car is easily doable, even in one that's as light as a Fiero. There are plenty of Fieros rolling around, with 500+ WHP, and on the street. There are plenty of non-Fieros with as much WHP and in the 2500-3300 lbs weight range, too.

So stop trolling and trying to piss on someone else's thread when they want to do the same.


So I'm trolling, because I'm right about putting down to the ground 500hp on the street on street tires is not going to happen..
your post that a new vette, has 500hp is making my point.. if it can hook that 500hp why the need to have mapping in the ecu to manage the torque???
why does it need nanny aids to keep the driver from wrecking?? might it be that it's an unchontrollable mess at full song, at shift points, and any bumps in the road on the STREET.

When it's et and mph is faster at a track, with nothing done to it, only that it is on a prep'd track surface.. it's not putting that power down on the street, cause if it was. the et and mph would NOT change it be the same.. funny that's never the case..
Having 500hp 600hp iss the old my stick is bigger than your stick, pissing match.. on the street it's useless..
The hell cat has 707hp but at shifts it's putting 250-275hp to the wheels as the torque management pulls all that "bragging rights hp " out ..as the zf and rear can't take that "hit"

[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 07-03-2016).]

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Originally posted by Capt Fiero:

...... As to Archie, he was the first man I contacted when I started this whole wild direction, and got some great advice from him. I'll be he gets pestered constantly by people wanting information from him about every aspect of a V8 Fiero, and I don't want to add to his pile of people,



Feel free to call me anytime. I love to talk to people about their projects.

My number is 847-212-3909.

Archie
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Report this Post07-03-2016 01:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:
So I'm trolling, because I'm right about putting down to the ground 500hp on the street on street tires is not going to happen..
your post that a new vette, has 500hp is making my point.. if it can hook that 500hp why the need to have mapping in the ecu to manage the torque???
why does it need nanny aids to keep the driver from wrecking?? might it be that it's an unchontrollable mess at full song, at shift points, and any bumps in the road on the STREET.

When it's et and mph is faster at a track, with nothing done to it, only that it is on a prep'd track surface.. it's not putting that power down on the street, cause if it was. the et and mph would NOT change it be the same.. funny that's never the case..
Having 500hp 600hp iss the old my stick is bigger than your stick, pissing match.. on the street it's useless..
The hell cat has 707hp but at shifts it's putting 250-275hp to the wheels as the torque management pulls all that "bragging rights hp " out ..as the zf and rear can't take that "hit"


No, you're ignorant for saying that. You're a troll because you keep jumping into these threads saying how impossible something is, that's already been done, like everyone should build their cars to your specifications. That is trolling, and exactly what you're doing.

It's totally possible to put 500 HP to the ground, through street tires. Is it smart to shove 500 HP through tires that are sitting still? No, but this thread isn't about getting 500 HP to the ground at stand still. So stop trying to piss on other peoples' shoes because you are unable to comprehend basic physics.

All those fancy electronics that manage torque output, traction, etc… aren't required to keep all drivers from wrecking the car. They're required to have a car that is reliable enough to satisfy warranty requirements, allow drivers to retain more control in unexpected hazard situations, and for the case of cars with 600 HP at the crank, to have a car with 600 HP that still has a trunk, instead of 26" wide tires, and that can get more than 10 MPG.

But by your arguments, the Veyron can't actually reach 170 MPH either, because it could never put all that power to the ground with street tires.

Since your beliefs prevent you from providing any actually useful information in this thread, perhaps it would be best if you stopped attempting to piss on Capt Fiero's shiny new turbo.
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Report this Post07-03-2016 02:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Capt FieroClick Here to visit Capt Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Capt FieroSend a Private Message to Capt FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I don't really want to comment on the argument, However with say doughnut tires, in 1st gear you would have a hard time getting even 200hp to the ground. If the car is setup right, with decent tires, 245 or 255's with a mild compound I am sure you will be fine with lots more power. So you can't use a blanket statement that XXXX hp is unusable. When you have so many variables, like, setup, weight transfer, gears, and not the least of it, the drivers skill. If you have a dumb driver that dumps the clutch at launch, or power shifts each gear, sure he will blow the tires off every time. So you can't expect to launch it at FULL THROTTLE, and dump the clutch, as it'll usually spin, but wait till you grab 2nd or 3rd gear you will be able to get onto the throttle gradually till you can run WOT. I am also a huge highway guy, so if I can get her into 4th or 5th gear and drop the hammer, I doubt it will blow the tires off.


Ok now back to the thread, I don't know who said I needed 30psi to reach my goals, Just saw this on LSx Magazine, Bone Stock LQ4 with I believe only a cam swap, makes 800 wheel horsepower at 17psi, at that point the torque converter was the weak link. On the subject of links, here ya go to the article, at the bottom of the article is a Video of the truck on the dyno. http://www.lsxmag.com/featu...n-a-250000-mile-lq4/ I am SO GLAD I chose to use the LQ4. Bonus is, he is also a tuner and posts all his tune files for very detailed specs on engines, all his tune files are downloadable for free on his site. It will definitely give me a good starting point to get the car running, then take it to a Dyno to get some real data. I really WANT TO LEARN how to tune my own setups with a laptop.


Archie, HUGE PROPs to you, I am not even a direct customer yet and you are already offering to help me. Thank You Sir, and I am sure I'll be calling you in the next few days, to get a kit sorted out for my swap. There will be a few parts in your master kit I won't need, but a couple things I will need added. You and Dickman are 2 of my favorite Fiero people. If the trans does not blow up, I know I am going to piss off a couple of 3.8 turbo guys that have huge dollars into their engine to make big power and this V8 with next to no mods will make more power. Pound per Pound of Boost, its hard to beat bigger engines.

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Report this Post07-04-2016 04:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


No, you're ignorant for saying that. You're a troll because you keep jumping into these threads saying how impossible something is, that's already been done, like everyone should build their cars to your specifications. That is trolling, and exactly what you're doing.

It's totally possible to put 500 HP to the ground, through street tires. Is it smart to shove 500 HP through tires that are sitting still? No, but this thread isn't about getting 500 HP to the ground at stand still. So stop trying to piss on other peoples' shoes because you are unable to comprehend basic physics.

All those fancy electronics that manage torque output, traction, etc… aren't required to keep all drivers from wrecking the car. They're required to have a car that is reliable enough to satisfy warranty requirements, allow drivers to retain more control in unexpected hazard situations, and for the case of cars with 600 HP at the crank, to have a car with 600 HP that still has a trunk, instead of 26" wide tires, and that can get more than 10 MPG.

But by your arguments, the Veyron can't actually reach 170 MPH either, because it could never put all that power to the ground with street tires.

Since your beliefs prevent you from providing any actually useful information in this thread, perhaps it would be best if you stopped attempting to piss on Capt Fiero's shiny new turbo.


post up a vehicle that lays down 500hp.. no wheel slip, no wheel slip at shifts, no ecu pulling power out,, no having to lift in a turn because it come around on you..
I won't hold my breath..
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Report this Post07-04-2016 09:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:
post up a vehicle that lays down 500hp.. no wheel slip, no wheel slip at shifts, no ecu pulling power out,, no having to lift in a turn because it come around on you..
I won't hold my breath..


Even full spec race cars have traction problems, and in modern days, also have electronic traction control.

Do you have a valid point that is relevant to this thread? Or are you going to just keep trolling with your nonsense? Traction issues aren't something that will just go away, regardless of how much power is or isn't put down. I can spin the tires in a bone stock 2.5l Fiero. I guess 70 HP to the wheels is too much. I have to lift on a stock 2.5l Fiero, because the back end comes around in turns. OMG 70HP is going to kill us all.

Stop being an idiot and a troll already.
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Report this Post07-04-2016 01:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Even full spec race cars have traction problems, and in modern days, also have electronic traction control.

Do you have a valid point that is relevant to this thread? Or are you going to just keep trolling with your nonsense? Traction issues aren't something that will just go away, regardless of how much power is or isn't put down. I can spin the tires in a bone stock 2.5l Fiero. I guess 70 HP to the wheels is too much. I have to lift on a stock 2.5l Fiero, because the back end comes around in turns. OMG 70HP is going to kill us all.

Stop being an idiot and a troll already.


so, you can't get 500hp to the ground on street tires.. funny thing about that.. it's called a balance.. the most powerful set up is not always the fastest..

But I guess claiming 500+ hp is good bench racing..


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Report this Post07-04-2016 02:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Capt FieroClick Here to visit Capt Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Capt FieroSend a Private Message to Capt FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
@ Mr. or Ms. Furgal, (ya never know, your nick is Fur Gal. ) We are all aware that not all cars can put all power levels down in all situations, and you are correct that 500hp or even 350hp in a bone stock Fiero would be less than useless. Which is kinda odd that you are arguing the topic, when in fact that was the entire reason for the thread. I agree with you, and its why I started this thread in the first place.

The point here is to understand what modifications people have found that better make the car apply the power to the ground in a more predictable and controlled fashion. As Dobey said even 100hp can overpower a Fiero in some situations, however on other situations 300hp is not enough.

So please I politly ask you, if you have suggestions on how to give the Fiero the ability to better use high horsepower engines please speak up, but if you are here to just to say it can't or shouldn't be done. Please refrain from posting in this thread. I do not wish it to turn into a pissing match for no reason.

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Report this Post07-04-2016 02:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:
so, you can't get 500hp to the ground on street tires.. funny thing about that.. it's called a balance.. the most powerful set up is not always the fastest..

But I guess claiming 500+ hp is good bench racing..


So, cars on dynos that read 500+ HP at the wheels on street tires, didn't actually make 500+ HP at the wheels?

Production cars that can accelerate to 60 MPH in less than three seconds aren't putting down all their power through street tires, because why?

You're right, it is called balance, and that's exactly what the electronic throttle and traction control is for; performing the balancing act of getting the car moving as quickly as possible without spinning the tires, and allowing to put the full amount of power to the ground at speed when downforce is increased, traction is more controlled, and the power is usable.

I guess those 300" rail cars with 30" wide slicks on the rear couldn't put down 500 HP through the tires either, because sometimes they spin.

Seriously, stop trolling and trying to tell this thread that the goals mentioned are impossible, because you don't have any idea what the hell you're talking about.
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Report this Post07-06-2016 07:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by dobey:


So, cars on dynos that read 500+ HP at the wheels on street tires, didn't actually make 500+ HP at the wheels?

Production cars that can accelerate to 60 MPH in less than three seconds aren't putting down all their power through street tires, because why?

You're right, it is called balance, and that's exactly what the electronic throttle and traction control is for; performing the balancing act of getting the car moving as quickly as possible without spinning the tires, and allowing to put the full amount of power to the ground at speed when downforce is increased, traction is more controlled, and the power is usable.

I guess those 300" rail cars with 30" wide slicks on the rear couldn't put down 500 HP through the tires either, because sometimes they spin.

Seriously, stop trolling and trying to tell this thread that the goals mentioned are impossible, because you don't have any idea what the hell you're talking about.


oh brothe, it made it straped to a roller..
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Report this Post07-06-2016 07:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by Capt Fiero:

@ Mr. or Ms. Furgal, (ya never know, your nick is Fur Gal. ) We are all aware that not all cars can put all power levels down in all situations, and you are correct that 500hp or even 350hp in a bone stock Fiero would be less than useless. Which is kinda odd that you are arguing the topic, when in fact that was the entire reason for the thread. I agree with you, and its why I started this thread in the first place.

The point here is to understand what modifications people have found that better make the car apply the power to the ground in a more predictable and controlled fashion. As Dobey said even 100hp can overpower a Fiero in some situations, however on other situations 300hp is not enough.

So please I politly ask you, if you have suggestions on how to give the Fiero the ability to better use high horsepower engines please speak up, but if you are here to just to say it can't or shouldn't be done. Please refrain from posting in this thread. I do not wish it to turn into a pissing match for no reason.


To get more power to "hook" in this platform, takes re-engineering it.. even the 88 isn't engineered for it.. you need to "load" the contact patch.. and that takes leverage.
and moving the instant center forward.. not easy in this lay out.. you also have to be able to plant the inner drive wheel in turns, so in a turn your traction contact patch isn't cut down 1/3rd..
The stock anti roll bar is not up to this task, nor are the rubber bushings in the links/a arms, poly only makes it worse as they cause a bind.
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Report this Post07-07-2016 10:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by E.Furgal:


oh brothe, it made it straped to a roller..


making friends all over aren't you.

You do know even you can be wrong, I have driven many cars with over 300 HP most from the 60s. driving those was an art.

Wheel slip, controlled by clutch during shifting

I had a 67 Firebird convertible with the 400 engine auto that would lift the front wheels off the ground on a hole shot. and that was from the factory. But I could also spin the tires in all 3 gears if I wanted, it is all a matter of controlling the clutch release. Tire have a lot to do with traction, more than most people know, wrong tire for any situation and you can get yourself killed. Most road tires are a compromise to get the safest tires all around. But their are different grades of tires as well. police cars are equipped at the factory with high speed rated tire and so can you, available to anyone who wants to spend the money and do a little research.

Steve

[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 07-07-2016).]

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Report this Post07-08-2016 03:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Capt FieroClick Here to visit Capt Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Capt FieroSend a Private Message to Capt FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
@ E.Furgal, Stock Sway bars, you are correct not up to the task, nor is the rubber bushings, so I have a 1.25" front bar and a 1" rear bar to go on the car. It is already lowered 2" all the way around, has Poly in all the control arm and Sway Bar points, and solid aluminum in the cradle bushings. I know autocross is going to be hurt not having an LSD in the car, but that may come with time. Right now all my money is pretty much tied up in the motor and stand alone system. (rest of the stuff I had already bought and installed)

@84Fiero123 You are totally right, it will take a driver to drive this car, not driver aids. I have ran and always will run Z Rated tires for my daily drivers, with ratings to 149mph sustained. In most cases they have the best sidewalls for low speed cornering as well.

Myself included, as a Fiero owner most can not afford 4 sets of tires for their car. 1st for daily driving, 2nd set for Road Racing, 3rd set for Drag Racing and a Winter set for Ice or below 50F temps. At this time I have 2 sets, one set of Z Rated driver tires and one set of full studded winter tires. I make do with what I can for drag racing at the track. Besides even a regular street tire will hook better at the track. So Sticky for the first 100ft. Gotta love it. I am sure if this car puts down the power I expect it to, I'll be buying a set of drag radials.

Alright guys, I am quite literally falling asleep at my keyboard, so I am going to call it a night. I think I have found my stand-alone system though. One of the key benefits it has 3 different types of traction control software built right in so when don't feel like being a race driver....... http://www.efisource.com/shop/package-ls-gold-box/

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quote
Originally posted by Capt Fiero:

@84Fiero123 You are totally right, it will take a driver to drive this car, not driver aids. I have ran and always will run Z Rated tires for my daily drivers, with ratings to 149mph sustained. In most cases they have the best sidewalls for low speed cornering as well.



SHH don't tell E.Furgal that, he is never wrong about anything. Problem is there are more people with more money than talent driving. and there ain't a auto dealer in the world that is ever going to recommend or better yet mandate that anyone who buys a car with over 300 HP take advanced driving classes at some of those racing schools we have all over the country.

http://www.advanceddrivers.com/serv08.htm

https://www.prodrive.net/

And anyone of the hundreds of other advanced driving courses. Most people who have a drivers license can't drive an advanced car with high HP without a lot of practice, hell most people can't drive a regular car. Practice on closed race courses done by people who drive at speeds above 100 MPH. You can't learn these skills without doing them and there is no place on public roads you can safely drive at those speeds. Another thing is they need to take these courses in their own High HP cars if they have one or what they plan on buying.

Steve

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Report this Post07-08-2016 08:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by Capt Fiero:
I know autocross is going to be hurt not having an LSD in the car, but that may come with time. Right now all my money is pretty much tied up in the motor and stand alone system. (rest of the stuff I had already bought and installed)


I wouldn't worry too much about having an LSD for autocross. You won't be going fast enough to need it. Brakes, traction, and power steering will help more than an LSD would.

Plus, you're already adding more weight on top of the rear tires with the heavier engine and all the turbo equipment. You'll need to worry more about the snap oversteer, than having an LSD. For the cost of the LSD, an electric power steering kit might be a better investment, for autocross and road racing. If you end up spending more time on road courses than autocross, then an LSD might make sense, but only if you start having problems with traction loss on the drive tire in corners.
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Report this Post07-09-2016 04:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by dobey:


I wouldn't worry too much about having an LSD for autocross. You won't be going fast enough to need it. Brakes, traction, and power steering will help more than an LSD would.

Plus, you're already adding more weight on top of the rear tires with the heavier engine and all the turbo equipment. You'll need to worry more about the snap oversteer, than having an LSD. For the cost of the LSD, an electric power steering kit might be a better investment, for autocross and road racing. If you end up spending more time on road courses than autocross, then an LSD might make sense, but only if you start having problems with traction loss on the drive tire in corners.


Part of an autocross is corner exit, you need traction, and you'll exit the corner faster and with more traction powering 2 wheels instead of one.. LSD is huge in autocross, as you are powering out of corners allot.. smoothness is the name of the game and planting the power with a wider contact patch helps big time, and I don't know about you, but two tires give a bigger contact patch to put the power down exiting a turn than 1 tire of an open diff.
autocross you want to exit a turn and enter the next as fast as you can, planting the power with one wheel isn't gonna do it, the more torque the engine makes the worse it'll be without a lsd..
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Report this Post07-09-2016 06:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by E.Furgal:
Part of an autocross is corner exit, you need traction, and you'll exit the corner faster and with more traction powering 2 wheels instead of one.. LSD is huge in autocross, as you are powering out of corners allot.. smoothness is the name of the game and planting the power with a wider contact patch helps big time, and I don't know about you, but two tires give a bigger contact patch to put the power down exiting a turn than 1 tire of an open diff.
autocross you want to exit a turn and enter the next as fast as you can, planting the power with one wheel isn't gonna do it, the more torque the engine makes the worse it'll be without a lsd..


"LSD is huge in autocross" because "Miatas are huge in autocross." A Fiero is not a Miata. There are very few mid-engine cars in autocross, and a whole lot of FWD and FR layout cars, especially the Miata.

You are making the assumption that a Fiero won't already be having full contact with two tires in the speeds at which autocross is performed. It will be, especially when one is adding weight in the rear. If you're breaking traction in autocross, in a Fiero, then either you are applying too much power, or you did something to seriously screw up the weight balance.
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Report this Post07-10-2016 01:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by dobey:


"LSD is huge in autocross" because "Miatas are huge in autocross." A Fiero is not a Miata. There are very few mid-engine cars in autocross, and a whole lot of FWD and FR layout cars, especially the Miata.

You are making the assumption that a Fiero won't already be having full contact with two tires in the speeds at which autocross is performed. It will be, especially when one is adding weight in the rear. If you're breaking traction in autocross, in a Fiero, then either you are applying too much power, or you did something to seriously screw up the weight balance.


MY ASSUMPTION IS physics, no matter how you try, doesn't change because you dream it.. the tire contact patch putting the power down works better when it is doubled..
open diff, is half the contact patch putting the power down than the lsd..
DARN THAT PHYSICS AND JUNK..
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Report this Post07-10-2016 07:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by E.Furgal:
MY ASSUMPTION IS physics, no matter how you try, doesn't change because you dream it.. the tire contact patch putting the power down works better when it is doubled..
open diff, is half the contact patch putting the power down than the lsd..
DARN THAT PHYSICS AND JUNK..


If you would understand physics, then you would understand there is more to making a contact patch, than having a locked diff, especially in a mid-engined car.

But hey, if you're offering to buy the $1200 diff for Capt Fiero, then by all means. But really, it's not something he really needs to worry about spending money on, for autocross, drag racing, or driving on the street, until everything else he wants done, is done.

Please stop shouting your poorly formed opinions as if they were fact in this thread. An LSD is not at all a requirement for Capt Fiero to meet his goals with his car, and yes, it will be possible for him to make power and get it to the ground, even on street tires.
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Report this Post07-10-2016 10:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by dobey:


 
quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:


Until either of you can post a video of you driving or autocrossing a 400+ hp Fiero, you both are speaking in theory and generalities without actual hands on experience to support your assumptions. Without actual experience or a detailed data set specific to the Fiero you are merely assuming what the issues will be and their order of significance, and without actual experience addressing these issues, you assume a solution that again is based on theory and generalities... and many or may not be applicable to the Fiero platform.
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Report this Post07-10-2016 11:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by fieroguru:
Until either of you can post a video of you driving or autocrossing a 400+ hp Fiero, you both are speaking in theory and generalities without actual hands on experience to support your assumptions. Without actual experience or a detailed data set specific to the Fiero you are merely assuming what the issues will be and their order of significance, and without actual experience addressing these issues, you assume a solution that again is based on theory and generalities... and many or may not be applicable to the Fiero platform.


If I recall correctly, your F40 doesn't have the LSD, and you autocross. Do you think you need one?

I am not speaking in theory or generality at all, and I don't need to drive a car on an autocross course to understand the physics involved, and how they apply to different types of cars, regardless of how much horsepower the engine in them can make. More weight over the drive wheels means more traction. That's no different in autocross than it is in winter driving. Autocross courses are short, with lots of turns, and so peak vehicle speed is going to be low. An iron block truck V8 along with a turbo and all the extra exhaust and intake piping, will add at least a couple hundred pounds to the rear of a Fiero, versus a stock 2.8.

Experience can be argued all day long, because even with experience, different cars are still different. But the physics doesn't change. Will an LSD help? Maybe. Is it something that Capt Fiero should spend a large chunk of his budget on? Probably not. Will an LSD change the amount of FUN that Capt Fiero will have with his car, on an autocross or elsewhere? Almost certainly not.

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Report this Post07-10-2016 11:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Capt FieroClick Here to visit Capt Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Capt FieroSend a Private Message to Capt FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hey FieroGuru don't you have experience with stand alone ECMS. I am looking at a kit EFI live that comes with computer stand-alone harness injectors and a 3 bar map sensor. It is up there in price at $1,500 but it is pre configured set up for a turbo LQ4. It's either that or I buy all the parts separately and make my own harness then buy HP tuners software. The bonus with HP tuners is I would be able to Tim our Grand Prix GTP and our Trailblazer. The Trailblazer really needs a tune as the cam phasing is horrible from stock.
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Report this Post07-10-2016 03:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by dobey:
If I recall correctly, your F40 doesn't have the LSD, and you autocross. Do you think you need one?


My F40 doesn't have a LSD, and I can't creditably say if it would be of any benefit since I haven't driven my car with one to see if having one would improve my times. I do have some opinions and theories about whether it would be beneficial at the autocross, drag strip, or daily driving... but those are just that... opinions, even if I believe these are supported by science.

Sure an iron block is heavier than an aluminum one and the turbo will add weight... but I also think it is premature to assume the end result will weigh more at the rear than a stock fiero for 2 main reasons... 1. the build isn't done so you are assuming he won't do his best to address the weight he is adding. If he removes the same amount of weight that he adds, then the rear could weigh the same. 2. You didn't specify which fiero 2.8. A bumper pad/4 speed with no options or the much heavier 88 2.8/125C w/ AC sunroof, GT, lumbar, etc... If you are that concerned with the potential weigh of someone else's car and truly want to help him, start by sharing methods to remove the weight.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 07-10-2016).]

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Report this Post07-10-2016 03:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by Capt Fiero:

Hey FieroGuru don't you have experience with stand alone ECMS. I am looking at a kit EFI live that comes with computer stand-alone harness injectors and a 3 bar map sensor. It is up there in price at $1,500 but it is pre configured set up for a turbo LQ4. It's either that or I buy all the parts separately and make my own harness then buy HP tuners software. The bonus with HP tuners is I would be able to Tim our Grand Prix GTP and our Trailblazer. The Trailblazer really needs a tune as the cam phasing is horrible from stock.


I have used a couple of the older systems (Holley Projection and Edelbrock Pro-Flo) and I didn't care for them at all. The newer aftermarket systems are worlds better than those, but so are the factory ecms. Unless there is a specific feature that you can not get with a factory GM ECM, I would stick with the factory ECM and tune it from there.
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Report this Post07-10-2016 04:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


If you would understand physics, then you would understand there is more to making a contact patch, than having a locked diff, especially in a mid-engined car.

But hey, if you're offering to buy the $1200 diff for Capt Fiero, then by all means. But really, it's not something he really needs to worry about spending money on, for autocross, drag racing, or driving on the street, until everything else he wants done, is done.

Please stop shouting your poorly formed opinions as if they were fact in this thread. An LSD is not at all a requirement for Capt Fiero to meet his goals with his car, and yes, it will be possible for him to make power and get it to the ground, even on street tires.


A lsd is not a lock diff.. but carry on.. why you tool with this I have to get ready to be up at N.H.M.S... checkers or wreckers,, see ya boys

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Report this Post07-10-2016 09:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by fieroguru:
My F40 doesn't have a LSD, and I can't creditably say if it would be of any benefit since I haven't driven my car with one to see if having one would improve my times. I do have some opinions and theories about whether it would be beneficial at the autocross, drag strip, or daily driving... but those are just that... opinions, even if I believe these are supported by science.

Sure an iron block is heavier than an aluminum one and the turbo will add weight... but I also think it is premature to assume the end result will weigh more at the rear than a stock fiero for 2 main reasons... 1. the build isn't done so you are assuming he won't do his best to address the weight he is adding. If he removes the same amount of weight that he adds, then the rear could weigh the same. 2. You didn't specify which fiero 2.8. A bumper pad/4 speed with no options or the much heavier 88 2.8/125C w/ AC sunroof, GT, lumbar, etc... If you are that concerned with the potential weigh of someone else's car and truly want to help him, start by sharing methods to remove the weight.


I am not concerned with the potential weight of someone else's car. However, he has already clearly stated that he is aware of the weight difference, and that his goals are more about having fun in the car, than necessarily winning all the races. After all, autocross, road courses, and drag racing all have a different set of requirements for the best possible setup to get the best possible times in each. I was simply stating that in the general case, an LSD is certainly not required in a Fiero, and suggest that it's not something that Capt Fiero should be spending his mental energy on.

I'm happy to offer suggestions for saving weight, if that's what he wants to know about, but it wasn't what he was asking about. My first suggestion would be of course to get an aluminum block instead. There's certainly plenty of stuff on the Fiero itself which could be removed in the rear as well, but since the thread was about what would be needed to make 1000+ HP in a Fiero, I'm mostly trying to stick to that topic. Yes, Furgal decided to try and derail us a bit, by making such outrageous claims as putting 500 HP to the ground in a street car is impossible, and now has turned to the exclamation that one must have an LSD in order to get what little power can be put to the ground, to the ground.
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Report this Post07-11-2016 06:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There is a reason some run up front most of the time and the others are field fillers..
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Report this Post07-11-2016 08:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Capt FieroClick Here to visit Capt Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Capt FieroSend a Private Message to Capt FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There is some old saying about being a jack of all trades, master of none...

The car will NEVER compete with a purpose built car. Unless of course that purpose built car is not at the top of the food chain. IE, I have seen some purpose built 1/4 Mile Honda civics that barley do a 12 second pass, or a stripped down Chevy Citation on the autocross course. I am also not a dedicated Professional race car driver. I can usually guide my car through an apex just fine, and pedal a launch with the best of them, LOL....

The most important thing is the grin I'll have on my face when I do a 3rd gear roll onto the throttle pulling harder than anything on 4 wheels. (and most 2 wheels for that matter)

Now as to weight, from everything I have read, in the Performance Fiero's book chapter on LS engines, to the How to Build a Gen 3 or 4 Chevy V8, the weight difference is a total of 80lbs. Now if I remember correctly from Archie's site, the weight penalty between an Aluminum Head V8 vs an Iron Head 2.8 was almost nothing. I should be good. I'll bet the weight of a 2.8 Iron head 125C is going to be the same as my Turbo LS. I have heard it mentioned, a few times, that all that Turbo stuff will add so much weight, well it'll ad some, but not that much, as frankly, I'll be removing as much weight in stock parts as I'll be installing. IE, remove stock Fiero Exhaust to replace with Turbo exhaust, the only 2 items of real addition will be the Turbo itself and the Inter-cooler. Which is about 10lbs of Turbo and 5 pounds of intercooler. Waste-gate, and Blow Off Valve weight is only about 1lb each.

I think the biggest weight addition will be the cage and or frame re-enforcement. However I am fairly certain whatever I lose in cornering ability I'll more than make up in 2nd gear sprints to 60mph. LOL, I am the guy trying to figure out if I can put 6 way power heated seats in my car, something Cadillac Cushy, without loosing leg room. I'm a big guy myself, at 6ft, 220lbs with a 34-36inch leg, so I need all the leg room I can get. I know I can shave a bunch of weight by going to one of the new mini batteries, I don't know what they are called, but are 1/2 the size and 1/4 the weight of a stock battery, but provide the same cranking amps. Some sort of Battery / Capacitor design. I remember at some point taking my car across the scales and it was 2500lbs with the 5spd Isuzu and Race Built High Compression 2.9 V6. (damn I loved that setup 7000rpm shifts)


So be it what may, this topic is about strengthening the Fiero chassis, I don't want to find myself ripping the strut towers out, or loosing another front upper shock mount. When I had built my first 85GT, I had not idea of the Fiero weaknesses. At the end of its life, I major cracks in both upper strut towers, one upper shock mount was gone, major cracks where the front cross member was bolted to the sub-frame, and Zero rust in the entire car. Living on the West Coast we do not have a major rust problem, and to top it all off, EVERY TIME, I have the car up in the air for brakes or trans swaps, I would always coat everything in either RED or BLACK anti rust paint. (black for frame and cradle, red for trans, brakes, sway bars and misc.) Rust was never a problem but twisting and eventually breaking parts due to constant abuse was. What would be considered abuse with a 2.8 or 4.9 Nitrous will be simply daily driving with a 600hp Turbo LS behind my head.

So uhm, ya.......

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Report this Post07-14-2016 08:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Have a good week end ..
I know I will


Checkers or wreckers boys..
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Report this Post07-14-2016 03:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FormulaSend a Private Message to FormulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The chassis is fine for the 500hp you want.

If you want 500hp out of an ls motor, just do heads, cam and intake manifold. No need to turbo for that.

http://www.superchevy.com/h...gine-power-packages/

Since you already have a built 4t65e, I would just do an l67 with a 60 lb/min turbo and make 500whp (and easily run 10s).

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Report this Post07-14-2016 10:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The real question here is what do you have to do and what would it take to put the amount of power you want to the ground.

Questions like this reveal the people who understand what they are doing and the ones who think they know what they are doing.

Kind of like at work when everyone that comes in the door claims 500 HP with a cam and intake change.

A old friend with one of the fastest cars in town showed me how he never lost a street race. Was it pure HP from his 440? No!

It was the fact the car hooked up and used all the power it made. He raced cars much faster than his but his car used all the power.

So the real question should be what hp do you want to make and what are you willing to do to make it all get to the ground.

Note the fastest winning cars do not do smokey burnouts.

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Report this Post07-15-2016 12:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Capt FieroClick Here to visit Capt Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Capt FieroSend a Private Message to Capt FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula:

The chassis is fine for the 500hp you want.

If you want 500hp out of an ls motor, just do heads, cam and intake manifold. No need to turbo for that.

http://www.superchevy.com/h...gine-power-packages/

Since you already have a built 4t65e, I would just do an l67 with a 60 lb/min turbo and make 500whp (and easily run 10s).



I had access to a 4t65hd, but I chose against it as I wanted to be able to row through the gears with a stick.
I probably won't ever put a 3800 S/C into a Fiero, its a good enough motor for our family car, but not what "I" want in a fun car.

Oh I am well aware that you can take the 6.0 motor and make 500hp N/A but I want the ability to drop the boost down, run regular pump gas, or crank the boost up and run E85 or C16 and have some real fun. I'd like the engine to be able to grow with the car as I add supporting mods.

Now as to what hyper said, you are dead on, and cranked to the max, if I don't explode the trans the first time I hit it, I'll probably just blow the tires off. The whole point of this thread is to talk to people and ask what "there" problems were and what solutions they came up with to make it all work together. The one guy with the 5.3LS Turbo car, runs 10.20s with 531 wheel horsepower. I would be OVER THE MOON if I did a 10 second pass. The ridiculous HP number on a dyno would be nothing more than bragging rights. If I had tires to handle or hold it, the trans would buckle if the trans did not let go the CV Shafts or Hubs would snap, and if all that held up, I am sure the front control arms would snap, as I came down from the biggest wheel stand in Fiero history.
Simply adding power does not make the ultimate street car, it actually can make the car dangerously unstable. Once again the reason for this thread.

On a note the guy running 10 second passes in his LS Turbo Fiero, its pretty much stock suspension, with a set of drag radial tires. I finally tracked down the owner, he owns a company that builds Racing Trans controllers for the 4T65 transaxles, as well as LSD's for several GM FWD trans axles. I am awaiting a reply from him.

About the only thing I know I SHOULD do and don't want to do is cage the car, after all this is a street car I want to take my 6 year old daughter to school in, or take my 3 year old out toy shopping. As a side not, that I am sure all the real gear heads are aware of, a normal front engine, rear wheel drive car that makes 10 second passes all day long at the track usually has a hard time with an 11 second pass, or even mid 12's on the street due to traction and not getting the weight transfer on launch to really plant the rear of the car.

So I want to find the best possible balance between Caddy Cushy and Arial Atom agility or Viper acceleration. P.S. don;t know if I mentioned this but the Stand Alone I will be using has traction control built in, you just have to add a front wheel speed sensor and 1 or 2 CV shaft speed sensors on the back. Should make the car less of a handful on the days I want to be less than attentive.

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Report this Post07-15-2016 09:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by Capt Fiero:
So I want to find the best possible balance between Caddy Cushy and Arial Atom agility or Viper acceleration. P.S. don;t know if I mentioned this but the Stand Alone I will be using has traction control built in, you just have to add a front wheel speed sensor and 1 or 2 CV shaft speed sensors on the back. Should make the car less of a handful on the days I want to be less than attentive.


This is basically what I'm going for as well, with the added requirement of "sleeper," meaning I want to keep it looking/sounding as close to stock as possible. This is why I decided to de-stroke my 5.3 down to just under 4.8, retrofit VVT, use a cam with a very close to stock overlap and LSA, and going with a full exhaust and emissions controls. The shorter stroke means lower torque in the low end, but a higher redline, and the VVT should be able to make it a very broad and relatively flat curve. I'm also trying to lose a lot of weight in the car, to see how low and balanced I can get it. One part of that is I'm trying to get the engine weight down, with the goal of having a ~4.8L V8 that weighs less than the stock 2.8 V6. I'm also planning to go with custom knuckles to mount different hubs to, which have ABS sensors, to be able to have the traction control. I might even end up making custom aluminum hubs, for the weight loss. I also plan to make plenty of custom parts out of carbon fiber, for intake piping and filter housing, radiator fan mount, and interior components. Also looking into parking sensors, lane change warning sensors, and plenty of other convenience features. Outside will look like a relatively stock 80s Fiero GT, but inside and driving experience will feel like a brand new sports car.

But being somewhat of a perfectionist and an engineer, and having way too many other responsibilities, along with doing everything myself, means it's taking me a very long time to get anything done.
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Report this Post07-17-2016 07:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You're going to need one hell of a clutch, transmission and axles. I don't think you can grasp the difference between 500hp and 1000hp. Keep dreaming.

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Report this Post07-18-2016 10:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Capt FieroClick Here to visit Capt Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Capt FieroSend a Private Message to Capt FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Justinbart:

You're going to need one hell of a clutch, transmission and axles. I don't think you can grasp the difference between 500hp and 1000hp. Keep dreaming.



Thanks to a conversation with my clutch supplier I am well aware of that. The 6 puck with the heaviest pressure plate, will only hold 450lbs on a clutch dump, but said realistically should not slip up to about 550lbs if power is applied gradually.

Do I grasp the difference between 500 and 1000hp, to be honest, not really. The most I have driven in a Fiero was 450hp, and it was fairly quick. I have ridden in a 10 second 650hp Supra which was also a pretty damn fast car. However nope never been in or driven anything with a REAL HONEST 1000hp. I can't even totally grasp just how much power is being fed through a drive-train at that level. If tried in a Fiero, It would probably destroy anything short of a dedicated race transaxle with custom straight cut gears and a whole slew of other mods that would make it nearly impossible to run on the street.

Which if you had read the thread completely you would have seen that I said the Turbo is spec'ed for 1000hp, but I will probably never try to crank it up, as I know the Fiero will not handle it. Hell the 8x 80lb per hour injectors won't support that. Its just really nice to know that my engine, with the stock block, stock crank, stock pistons and stock heads can run 800 wheel horsepower, so my goals of 550-600hp at the crank, will very much be in the safe zone. As I have also said, for daily driving, I'll drop the boost down, so it only makes around 400hp. Which is MORE THAN ENOUGH to have fun with. Hell anything over 350hp and I'll spin the tires though the first 2-3 gears.

So have I experienced 1000hp in ANYTHING, nope, do I plan to try in a Fiero, nope.

Please have a great day. If you have some useful information, please feel free to add to this thread. It sounds as though you have a fairly stout setup yourself. With your multi disk clutch I would love to hear your impressions of it.

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Report this Post07-19-2016 10:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You might want to think about getting this car to start with (not mine).... http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/074353.html
http://www.ebay.com/itm/198...AOSwIgNXiUqj&vxp=mtr
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Report this Post07-21-2016 03:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Capt FieroClick Here to visit Capt Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Capt FieroSend a Private Message to Capt FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for the Link Guru, I had tossed the idea around of buying vs building, as you can almost always get more for your money buying someone else's project car vs buying all new parts one by one and building it yourself. However I want this build to be Mine and I want to know every nut bolt and how everything was put together so that went I inevitably do break it, I'll know how to put it back together, I'll know the weak spots and the strong points. You being an Engineer / Mechanic should be able to appreciate it. Today I ordered the 400 lph fuel pump, the LS Ceramic coated headers, the 7000 rpm capable valve springs, picked up the new Comp Magnum push rods, and tomorrow I order the stand-alone and the Archie kit. I spent the day degreasing the cradle, trans and suspension, in prep for anti rust paint on everything. (black for cradle / Red for trans).

This is going to be one epic build for me.

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