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Fiero values -- a statistical anomaly by formulaWA
Started on: 05-10-2015 09:02 AM
Replies: 65 (1455 views)
Last post by: E.Furgal on 05-24-2015 08:27 AM
formulaWA
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Report this Post05-10-2015 09:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for formulaWASend a Private Message to formulaWAEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Interesting

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Report this Post05-10-2015 11:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
We knew it was going to happen....it just took a lot longer than expected. Is this true for other Fieros as well?
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Report this Post05-10-2015 12:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Now keep in mind what the conditions mean, colors and options to the value. Then the next issue is to find someone willing to pay it.

There has not been a thing wrong with Fiero value other than too many expecting too much too soon for them. It took many of the 60's muscle cars to hit 30 years old before they really saw increases. That is how I used to be able to afford 3 of them at once in prime condition. Too bad when I sold them at double what I paid was a mistake as they are worth much more now. LOLQ!
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Report this Post05-10-2015 05:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Talking strictly stock Fieros, Ive never seen one I was willing to pay more than $6-7K for with no miles and mint condition. Thats just me though. Even then it would have to be a #1 concours car.
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Report this Post05-10-2015 06:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JJFieroFanSend a Private Message to JJFieroFanEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think they will go up. Maybe not quite yet. I think condition and originality will end up being as important as miles. Obviously lower mileage is better, but so many have been modified that if the values do increase those that were modified may not go up as quickly. Who knows though. Not in it for money, just love of Fieros!
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Report this Post05-10-2015 08:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JJFieroFan:

I think they will go up. Maybe not quite yet. I think condition and originality will end up being as important as miles. Obviously lower mileage is better, but so many have been modified that if the values do increase those that were modified may not go up as quickly. Who knows though. Not in it for money, just love of Fieros!


You are correct on the Miles and Original. They will be added value.

Now for modified cars a lot will depend on different things.

For one if the engine has been changed or other major modifications done were they documented as to the quality and extent they were done. If you document the changes with bills, photos and other info this is a premium for a modified car. Too often cars are modified and some are hack jobs and other are well done but with nothing to document it many people will keep away.

Other modifications with older aftermarket parts like the DGP body panels, T tops and other hard to find aftermarket parts will also be of value on these cars. The Fiero was a car the aftermarket made many parts for but many are rare and difficult to find and the parts can be of great value on their own.

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Report this Post05-10-2015 08:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:

Talking strictly stock Fieros, Ive never seen one I was willing to pay more than $6-7K for with no miles and mint condition. Thats just me though. Even then it would have to be a #1 concours car.


And I would not pay anywhere near what the muscle cars are bringing now. They were not very good cars when new, cheap interiors, lousy handling and some of them are not at all fast in a straight line by todays standards. Back then 0 to 60 in 8 seconds was considered very fast.
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Report this Post05-10-2015 09:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Csjag:


And I would not pay anywhere near what the muscle cars are bringing now. They were not very good cars when new, cheap interiors, lousy handling and some of them are not at all fast in a straight line by todays standards. Back then 0 to 60 in 8 seconds was considered very fast.


Mostly true, but nothing has the style and appeal, character of a 60s-71 true muscle car. My old 318 Dodge sounded a lot badder than my 08 Bullet Mustang...even with the headers and cams. Plus it was a head turner going down the street where no one even saw the Mustang. New Camaros and Challengers, even if faster and better handling to me are a joke. Ill take an original 70 Challenger over any two new ones..even if its just a small block. Same answer with a 69 Camaro over the new version. New cars just dont have the right flavor...they dont put a smile on your face driving one. Ill admit prices on old true muscle cars are a bit over the top, but thats supply and demand at work. The average of a decent stock Fiero is pretty much under $1500-2000. You can find running and driving ones for less than $1000 all day long. I bought the 86 SE I built the Ferrari kit on in Missouri and drove it home with no troubles for $800. For those that really like them, you want them to stay cheap like that. They will never be an investment type car for another 40 years, if people even own private cars then. The only good things going for Fieros now is the low prices and the handling. They were also never very good cars either when they were new which is why their cheap now. Remember, only the body is unique all the rest is cobbled together from other parts cars like Chevette and Citation.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 05-10-2015).]

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Report this Post05-10-2015 10:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by formulaWA:

Interesting

Hagerty


I think this just means that Madcurl or Troy just switched to Hagerty.
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Report this Post05-10-2015 11:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blakeinspaceClick Here to Email blakeinspaceSend a Private Message to blakeinspaceEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:
I think this just means that Madcurl or Troy just switched to Hagerty.


lol,
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Report this Post05-11-2015 03:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:

Remember, only the body is unique all the rest is cobbled together from other parts cars like Chevette and Citation.


Not true with the 88's.

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Report this Post05-11-2015 04:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FrizlefrakClick Here to Email FrizlefrakSend a Private Message to FrizlefrakEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Csjag:


And I would not pay anywhere near what the muscle cars are bringing now. They were not very good cars when new, cheap interiors, lousy handling and some of them are not at all fast in a straight line by todays standards. Back then 0 to 60 in 8 seconds was considered very fast.


I own a near new looking 30K mile 1986 Fiero GT. I also own a nicely restored 1970 Mustang Mach 1. Anyone want to venture a guess which one garners more attention driving it around town?

The reason the 60's and early 70's muscle cars became so desirable was twofold. First, what came after them was slower, and many people (wrongly) assumed that performance had peaked in that era and was never coming back. Second, the Big 3 could literally do no wrong styling wise during that era. Some of the most beautiful automobiles ever built at any price came out of American factories during that period. Ironically, I think the Fiero fastback falls into the category of most beautiful at any price.

Whether or not this is a statistical blip in Fiero values remains to be seen. But I do know this much....I'm glad I bought the Mach 1 when I did...values have soared and it probably wouldn't be practical to buy it today. Might be a good time to buy that Fiero you've been yearning for as well just in case. But really, value only matters in two scenarios....if you're buying, or if you're selling. Beyond that, drive 'em and enjoy 'em.
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Report this Post05-11-2015 07:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:


Mostly true, but nothing has the style and appeal, character of a 60s-71 true muscle car. My old 318 Dodge sounded a lot badder than my 08 Bullet Mustang...even with the headers and cams. Plus it was a head turner going down the street where no one even saw the Mustang. New Camaros and Challengers, even if faster and better handling to me are a joke. Ill take an original 70 Challenger over any two new ones..even if its just a small block. Same answer with a 69 Camaro over the new version. New cars just dont have the right flavor...they dont put a smile on your face driving one. Ill admit prices on old true muscle cars are a bit over the top, but thats supply and demand at work. The average of a decent stock Fiero is pretty much under $1500-2000. You can find running and driving ones for less than $1000 all day long. I bought the 86 SE I built the Ferrari kit on in Missouri and drove it home with no troubles for $800. For those that really like them, you want them to stay cheap like that. They will never be an investment type car for another 40 years, if people even own private cars then. The only good things going for Fieros now is the low prices and the handling. They were also never very good cars either when they were new which is why their cheap now. Remember, only the body is unique all the rest is cobbled together from other parts cars like Chevette and Citation.



All valid but very individual subjective points.

Muscle Cars were also cobbled together with a bunch of basic family sedan parts. A GTO was just a Tempest with out the engine.

The Fiero will hold better value than most 80's cars but it is too early to tell if there will be any major value. The biggest issue is there still are too many to drive supply vs. demand. The only cars showing much value of the 80's is a GN or GNX. Everything else is kind of in limbo right now. Vette prices are cheap as well as Camaro and Trans Am. Even the Mustangs are dirt cheap.

Also these are not Sheby Cobras or Ferraris that have that freak value jump they enjoyed in the 90's.

At worst these will appreciate like a Corvair and easily be worth more than most sold new but as to how much more the market needs to determine that. Heck if the economy should crash none of these cars will hold much value.

The basic key it the price will be market driven and it is up the demands of the collectors to see what is and what is not worth much on the market. At this point the car is just entering a phase where collectors may start to show interest over the next 10 years. It may then give indication of where this is all going. We have just played out the 70's and are just now seeing Trans Ams and other limited vehicles start to show some movement like the Coswoth Vega and Little Red Express. Like the 80's few cars of the 70's era have shown much interest in the collector market.

In the case of the Fiero fans we will not drive the price but those who are in the collector hobby are the ones who will drive the value if they should choose to jump in on the Fiero. As the older cars get more expensive they will continue to move into the 70's-80's and choose the cars they will deem collectable.

Bottom line if you are to buy a car buy one you like as at least if it is worth nothing you have a car you like.

Right now if I were to buy a collector car for investment of the 80's there are really only two strong models. a totally stock low mile GN or GNX or the Trans Am Turbo Pace car from 1989. There is some interest in the Monte SS aero coupe with T tops but out side of that it is too early to tell where the hot models will come from.

The bottom line is 30 years is really not as old for cars as some would like to think.

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Report this Post05-11-2015 08:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think resale value depends a lot on where you sell the car. A Barrett Jackson type auction where they really hype up the cars can bring higher prices. I've been watching the Barrett Jackson and Mecum auctions for several years and I always see cars up for auction again that were sold for a relatively high price at a previous auction. I think there is a lot of buyers remorse because once they get the car they wanted in high school and drive it they realize that it really isn't a very good car. I do miss chrome bumpers though
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Report this Post05-11-2015 11:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

Not true with the 88's.


I never had an 88 myself. What parts on it are different...arent they also just parts from the GM assorted parts bins ? I know suspension parts are different, but are they designed specificly for the Fiero ? Just asking.

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Report this Post05-11-2015 12:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes....Those suspension parts and the brakes are only on the 88 Fiero. Not good business sense, but that's what happened.

[This message has been edited by Gall757 (edited 05-11-2015).]

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Report this Post05-11-2015 01:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:


I never had an 88 myself. What parts on it are different...arent they also just parts from the GM assorted parts bins ? I know suspension parts are different, but are they designed specificly for the Fiero ? Just asking.


Most of the 88 Fiero suspension and brakes are unique to the 88 Fiero.
Steering rack, sealed front wheel hubs, brake rotors and calipers, the entire rear cradle and suspension geometry. They even moved the upper strut mounts in the rear. (That's why you have to relocate the top strut mounts to put an 88 cradle in a pre-88 car). It was a pretty comprehensive redesign with very little coming from the parts bin.

Some parts can be interchanged, like rear struts, but originally they were different.
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Report this Post05-11-2015 01:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Formula88

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quote
Originally posted by Gall757:

Yes....Those suspension parts and the brakes are only on the 88 Fiero. Not good business sense, but that's what happened.



IMO, the bad business sense was not going with the 88 suspension in the first place. I think that would have given the car a much better chance to be successful.
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Report this Post05-11-2015 01:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for css9450Click Here to Email css9450Send a Private Message to css9450Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Gall757:

Yes....Those suspension parts and the brakes are only on the 88 Fiero.



The '88 Fiero has the same rear calipers as the Pontiac 6000 STE All Wheel Drive. Just the rears. No big production numbers those cars! LOL

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Report this Post05-11-2015 02:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rednotdeadClick Here to Email rednotdeadSend a Private Message to rednotdeadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Interesting to see. I wouldn't get my hopes up too high about the value of Fiero's increasing drastically vis-a-vis similar cars of the late '80s era though, if the automobile section of another, nearly entirely young userbase discussion group I monitor is any indication. The most lusted after cars of 17-25 somethings there are the MR2s, CRX, NA Miata, and RX-7 and the like, and these feelings are very strong. The Fiero is mostly relegated to a punchline, or at best seen as a somewhat sad curiosity. I would expect a bit of halo effect though, but not too much. Imports is where it's mostly at.

I myself overpaid for a Formula (and perhaps inadvertently skewed the prices upward to the benefit of some). $3,300 for an example with faded paint and torn headliner but supposedly only 78k on the odometer. Eventually needed a new cat, belts, and shocks... and who knows what else. Runs fine though, for now. Fingers crossed...
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Report this Post05-11-2015 11:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shho13Click Here to Email Shho13Send a Private Message to Shho13Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Csjag:


And I would not pay anywhere near what the muscle cars are bringing now. They were not very good cars when new, cheap interiors, lousy handling and some of them are not at all fast in a straight line by todays standards. Back then 0 to 60 in 8 seconds was considered very fast.


Hell yeah man! I have never driven a muscle car that was a joy to drive handling wise. During a cruse around on a nice sunny day they may be cool, but overall driving enjoyment in a classic muscle car is very low IMO and I wouldn't even think about paying what a "classic" muscle car is worth these days. I paid $2600 for my 88 GT and about $2000 so far in the restoration and even after all the money I put into it so far the amount I spent towards parts including the purchase price is no where near what just a rust free shell of a dime a dozen muscle car costs these days. Plus, I hate Camaros, and Mustangs. They are the ultimate me-too cars. (I hope that statement doesn't start an argument!)

I recently took my buddies restored 68 Barracuda out for a spin (costed him well over 15k for just the car). It was a fun ride, can't argue that, but hold on when you make a turn... a solid rear axle and a massive boat anchor for an engine weighing down the front end really don't make for a nice ride...

------------------
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Red 1988 GT under restoration!

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Report this Post05-12-2015 12:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WKDFIROClick Here to Email WKDFIROSend a Private Message to WKDFIROEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Gotta wonder if the Chevy Corvairs are still waiting for their prices to go up...
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Report this Post05-12-2015 07:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by WKDFIRO:

Gotta wonder if the Chevy Corvairs are still waiting for their prices to go up...


Many are doing quite well. Not exactly GTO Judge numbers but they have gone up well in the last 5 years. Collector outside the Corvair hobby have taken notice and have been buying them. Even Jay Leno has several.

Not the Truck, Vans and Monza/Corsa models see the greatest interest.

Like the Fiero they made a lot of Corvairs and the increased demand just now is driving the price.

Like I said it I still early in the game of the Fiero. There are still too many vs. demand. Once the market takes a greater interest in 80's cars we will have a place there. Now the value increases will not Shelby like but we will be in the room with the cars collectors will have an interest in. Much like the 70's there is a limited number of cars of that era that hold much interest and the 80's will follow. We will not get rich but we will be worth more than a Chevy Citation of Ford Tempo.

The first thing to do if you own a Fiero is stop worrying how much it will be worth and that way you will only be surprised and not disappointed at the future. Car values are like rolling dice on many cars. Only a hand full can promise increase values and most of them cost a lot when new. Also many cars that were flops like the Superbird where few were made and no one liked then when new, then turn things around as that keep their numbers down and it pays off later in high demand low supply.
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Report this Post05-12-2015 11:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rodrv6Click Here to Email Rodrv6Send a Private Message to Rodrv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I just went through this with an early Porsche 911. Bought it 30+ years ago and sold it last year for many times what I paid for it.
My personal opinion, for what it's worth, is that the 88's will see the quickest rise in values since they are unique in many ways. The GT was relatively low production that year, especially compared to other cars of the time, so they may become more "collectible". In any event, it seems like the more original the car is will have the biggest impact. In my experience with the Porsche, buyers want a car that is complete and has not been molested. Mileage is not as big a deal as originality. My Porsche had aftermarket seats and carburetors, but I had kept the original components and that was a big selling point. I've swapped in a 3.4 in my GT, but I'm keeping the original 2.8 in case someone wants it with the car sometime down the road.
It'll be interesting to watch what happens...........

------------------
Rod Schneider, Ball Ground, Ga.
"You can't have too many toys!"
1988 Fiero GT
1988 Porsche 928S4
1987 Corvette
2001 Chrysler 300M
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Report this Post05-12-2015 12:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lorennerolSend a Private Message to lorennerolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Frizlefrak:Ironically, I think the Fiero fastback falls into the category of most beautiful at any price.


Agreed. Below $100k, the two cars that most appeal to me visually are the Saturn Sky and the Fiero GT. I'm fortunate to own one of each

 
quote
Originally posted by Frizlefrak:Whether or not this is a statistical blip in Fiero values remains to be seen.


I spot checked my Sky and it showed a similar blip at another point in time. I think it's just a flaw or oddity in the way their algorithm estimates values, rather than an indication of a sudden surge. Completed sales on eBay are, I think, a better indication of real-world value.
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Report this Post05-12-2015 01:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Pace car replicas may see some value in the future. Today there are still too many of them that pristine original ones are still relatively cheap. And even though they are just crappy 84s under the skin the Indy mystique makes them a little more interesting. And the fact that most have not been modified makes it easier to have an all original one.
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Report this Post05-12-2015 01:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lorennerolSend a Private Message to lorennerolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:


IMO, the bad business sense was not going with the 88 suspension in the first place. I think that would have given the car a much better chance to be successful.


I just did a write-up on Hulki for our club newsletter last month. The entire budget to design, tool, build, and market the car ended up at $300,000,000. That it got built at all was miraculous, but sacrifices had to be made to complete it with the meager budget (which had been cut more than 25% from the original $410,000,000). Among other things, using the Iron Duke cost the project almost nothing (he originally wanted to launch the car with an aluminum block V6) and going to the existing parts bin for the front and rear was also not optional, since there was so little money in the budget.

The real idiocy was that GM spent $30,000,000 to redo the suspension for 88, then cancelled the car.
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Report this Post05-12-2015 03:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This again...
old muscle cars, cost a ton, because it's become a "status" item..
They are not fast, not well built, and are not special..
Those that say todays cars don't turn heads, forget that a 66 gto didn't in 66 either.. as it looked like every 66 Pontiac made... same with all of them, and why many went to "loud" colors..
Fiero's will go up, also but not as wildly as the old muscle cars..
just like you can buy a 70 chevelle 454 car for huge money, there is other 70 muscle for much less, the Fiero will be the 80's much less car, as the 80's had tons of other cars that will get the nod first..
The GNX is already huge money, the G.n. will be another, the first year areocoupe SS, the Pontiac 2+2, the hurst olds, 422, svo mustang, the t-bird turbo coupe, the Firehawk, the LE1 Camaro's,
the mopar turbo cars, and if it has the word SHELBY on it.. The Fiero has an issue, and it is the 80's vettes.. unless they start climbing in value a ton, to make the guy/gal looking for a 2 seater have to move to the Fiero because they are priced out of a vette. You also have a generation that when of age that be into these years vehicles, also where into the trucks.. as the late 80's early 90's trucks where HUGE.
I can see the first year of the new body g.m. truck (88) going for more than many Fiero's.. I think the mazda will command more than the Fiero..
This generation that loves 80's cars are also still more into v8's, 4cyl and v6's where not loved, and still are not..for the most part by those in this generation..
The 64-72 muscle cars values are high for the special cars the LS6,THE HEMI/etc that drag the other cars up with them.. What does the Fiero have as a "special" model to help drag the lesser ones up with it.. NOTHING.. The g.n. will drag the T-TYPE up with it.. the firehalk will drag the gta up with it, the LE1 will drag the Iroc up with it, the Shelby turbo mopars will drag the turbo mopars up, the other g-bodys, will not be dragged up with the special ones, , the mustang svo, won't drag the other mustangs with it.. The Fiero GT wasn't special to the nothie, the same v6, same trans, same power.. same everything but body.. I doubt even the Indy will gain value over the other Fiero's as the Indy 500 was an older guys race, and not the age group to lust 80's cars..
I think the well done, modded Fiero's (chop tops, widened, v8 ,etc will get more money than the as delivered Fiero's..

[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 05-12-2015).]

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Originally posted by lorennerol:


I just did a write-up on Hulki for our club newsletter last month. The entire budget to design, tool, build, and market the car ended up at $300,000,000. That it got built at all was miraculous, but sacrifices had to be made to complete it with the meager budget (which had been cut more than 25% from the original $410,000,000). Among other things, using the Iron Duke cost the project almost nothing (he originally wanted to launch the car with an aluminum block V6) and going to the existing parts bin for the front and rear was also not optional, since there was so little money in the budget.

The real idiocy was that GM spent $30,000,000 to redo the suspension for 88, then cancelled the car.


Well that was just the damaged culture inside GM that has just recently been replaced. GM was their own worst enemy as if Chevy and Pontiac had worked together they could have dominated the Asian makes. Instead they fought each other and did enough damage that Toyota and Honda really did not have to fight them.

The Whole Fiero program had many mistakes made both on GM and Pontiacs side. While GM did a lot of damage Pontiac also made some fatal mistakes on some risk they took that did not work out. Rolling the dice on that GM 80 to suck up the over capacity at the Pontiac plant was a major risk and they lost. At times I kind of think Pontiac never really expected the car to make it more than 5 years. I know they planned on more but I think anything over 5 was going to be thought of as bonus years.

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hyperv6

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I see the 911 brought up here. This is a case where we have something that can show you just never know.

The 911 was just kind of out there and not really doing bad but not really doing Ferrari like prices. Then about a year or so ago the air cooled 911 cars have rocketed up in price. The special models like the 70's Carrera cars like my teacher in high school drove are now worth over a million. Even later models like the mid 80's Carreras are now doubling and tripling in price.

The fact is the new cars are so expensive as they age to maintain the people are going back to the old school air cooled cars. No water cooling to mess with not awd issue and no major hard to fine electronic issues.

It just goes to show you never know.

Yet note the flagship car of the era the 928 is worth less than many Fiero's today because of reliability issues and cost to repair. You can buy a nice one for $5K but you can spend half that with just buying replacement parts if something breaks.
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Report this Post05-13-2015 02:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by hyperv6:


Well that was just the damaged culture inside GM that has just recently been replaced. GM was their own worst enemy as if Chevy and Pontiac had worked together they could have dominated the Asian makes. Instead they fought each other and did enough damage that Toyota and Honda really did not have to fight them.

The Whole Fiero program had many mistakes made both on GM and Pontiacs side. While GM did a lot of damage Pontiac also made some fatal mistakes on some risk they took that did not work out. Rolling the dice on that GM 80 to suck up the over capacity at the Pontiac plant was a major risk and they lost. At times I kind of think Pontiac never really expected the car to make it more than 5 years. I know they planned on more but I think anything over 5 was going to be thought of as bonus years.

Damaged culture,,??? maybe somewhat,, but there was other things at play? back then many vehicles from g.m./ford/mopar had long runs, so the way they kept the runs going was making them a little better every year, it wasn't just the Fiero.. you can go back to the 60's with this,, but in the 80's.. it was standard practice to slowly build on the platform. the 1982 firdbird t/a, the 83 was a little better the 85 was better the 87 a little better, the 88 with the new welding and glue made them stiffer, and a little better,,the 93 is the same car as the 82 only better, with A arm's instead of strut front end.. same with the Camaro, the vette, the g -bodys, the b-bodys.. ford did the same thing, and so did mopar.. it was the way they ran.. Toyota and Honda did the same thing, only difference is the first few years of a model was ironed out on the home turf, then we got it.. so the product was passed it's teething,
G.m. killed the Fiero.. as the vette was hurting back then.. and what the 88 Fiero was,was not what was "sold" to g.m. brass.. I passed a Pontiac dealer every day on paperroute in the 80's the Fiero GT was not cheap.. in87-88 16-17 grand was a lot of money, and on the same lot you had a t/a loaded that was the same money.. with the GTA being a 3000.00 package pushing them to low 20's..
by 88 you had other 2 seaters, in the market.. many thousands less.. The late 80's also saw the truck boom start.. Them spending 30 million on retooling the 88 was a product of one hand not knowing what the other hand is doing.. and sadly happens a ton in big business..
G.m. also had a problem of a v8 that was on death row, and needed a total rework, as the gen I small block was not going to cut it for the e.p.a. and c.a.f.e . Only way to make bean counters want to invest that much coin into a new engine is to sell a ton of product with it.. The fiero was taking sales from the T/A,CAMARO AND VETTE..
If, the Fiero factory was building or able to build another model along side the 2 seater it have not died in 88. but the 2 seater market was flooded by then and even if they kept it, they not move many per year.. and The bean counter more than management can't see or figure out how to make money when selling 30 thousand units a year.. many other car makers knew how.. but not the g.m. bean counters..

G.M. made a bunch of goofs in the 80's.. killing the g bodys was one... Buick lost it's sporty model g.n. and was getting a 2 seater, so I'm sure buick bitched that Pontiac had the t/a,firebird..
The buick 2 seater was a flop.. What g.m. should've done was taken the Fiero and for 89.. re-skined it, and handed it to buick.. with the 3.8 v6 in the back..
They teased us with the Impala SS for years, then built it, and then killed the b-body so they could build more trucks.. Then killed the f-body.. And like the Fiero, if the line had another model being build beside it, they wouldn't have killed it.. as the factory could "move" enough units to make keeping it open worth it.. Truth is if the f-body and nova wasn't almost twins parts wise, the f -body would've never lasted to get to the 80's..

Many of the things g.m. killed off would've not have been if they had the powerplants they do now, in 4cyl and v6 form.. the b-body was killed because they where selling tomany trucks and g.m. was v8 top heavy.. not many would by a b-body with the v6's they had then. and g.m. knew it.. remove c.a.f.e ratings and the b-body wouldn't have got killed..
The f-body.. was long in the tooth by 2002.. 20 year run of the same basic platform.. it needed a new one, and g.m. didn't have the money, that was the first signs that they where in trouble..
nevermind that by 2000 they had priced them out of the buyers that wanted them.. not many willing to part with 32k for a ws6t/a.. and dealers at least here it was sticker or you didn't get it..
Pontiac dealers did the same crap with the GTO.. sticker, no dealing... The one here would have 10 on hand but hide 9 of them.. and say this was the only one, and the next one was ordered but was 2 months out.. so people paid it, and then wow look another on the lot the next day..

g.m. when it killed Pontiac should've given the 2 seater to buick... but didn't..
I'm sure it's easy from the outside looking in, easy to say after the fact that ,the management was clueless.. but I'm sure it's not that easy when in those shoes..

G.m. biggest mistake was not killing off brands 15 years before they did.. They went to long with badge engineered products.. The days of just fighting AMC/MOPAR/FORD had long passed.. and instead of downsizing and making the products 100% better, they dragged out the badge engineering floor plan..

But back to the Fiero, I honestly think if the car looked not fast, not sporty, but was the same under the skin as the 88 in 88 it have not been killed.. if it still looked as bland as the base 84 did.. it have flown under the radar, and the powers that be wouldn't have been worry'n about it taking sales from the vette or f-body twins.. kinda like them never worry'n about the t-type even tho it was just as quick as the vette years before it put on that black dress..


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Report this Post05-13-2015 04:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I remember it a bit different Furgal. I was a car nut in the 60s. We would chase down a Mopar GTX , GTO or Camaro just to get a good look at it. We went to all the dealers in September just to get the first look at the new muscle cars from every brand. It wasnt uncommon to yell out to everyone in the car "LOOK, theres a SuperBee guys !!" We drooled all over ourselves for the muscle cars we couldnt have. We all cruised in 56 Fords, Chevies and other noncool cars. I had a 52 Plymouth and a 55 Oldsmobile that I thought was bad. I about peed my pants when a friends gf let me actually drive her new 65 GTO. Those were the cars the crowds swarmed around at the local cruise in restaurants. You had a late 60s muscle car...you were a rock star. They were cheap too. I remember when Daytonas and Superbirds were selling for under $3000 brand new on the lots. Of course you could buy a house for under $15,000 new and gas was 20 cents. My parents bought our house new, 3 bedrm, 2 car garage and finished full basement for $12,000 and my first car was $150 that ran and looked perfect for 3 years.
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Originally posted by rogergarrison:

and my first car was $150 that ran and looked perfect for 3 years.


So this just begs the question, what happened after 3 years was up?

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Report this Post05-14-2015 06:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
E.Furgal I agree with much of what you say but there was a lot more involves here than just GM's mistakes. All the American auto industry was complacent for much too long. Also GM's damaged culture goes even way back to the 60's if you read the history and issues Delorean had when he was at Pontiac even under Bunkie Knudsen.

The real keys to the Fiero demise was the Corvette people that pretty much did not want the Fiero to get more power at a cheaper price than the Vetter price that was going up. But they would not have had the issues if Pontiac had not made some major mistakes on some major risks.

The first issues was they over built the car the first two years. But they had to in keeping the plant viable. There is a limit to how many 2 seat cars you are going to sell over 10 years and if you sell most of them in the first three the production numbers will fall to where they need to be as great demand will only last so long. The Miata has always keep the number sold limited and global to make it viable. Pontiac did not do that.

Pontiac has risked that the GM 80 would be in the plant after several years and it would eat up the over capacity but when the program was canceled that put an end to that and opened the door for Chevy to do what they did. Then add on top how the recalls were covered it was a mess. Just imagine if the web had been around the damage would have even been worse.

This is only a part of the issues the GM, Fiero and Pontiac faced. This is why there is no simple answer why the car died as it did. It also is why it would be interesting to do a book on the car that tells the whole story and not the sanitized GM version. It would really be a case study in how GM operated with the divisions and why things lead to where they ended up in the bail out.

I know many hate to hear it but you are correct GM added divisions like Saturn and Hummer when they should have been cutting a few.

I would recommend the book Car Guys vs. Bean Counters by Bob Lutz. It tells of the mess he found at GM and the damaged culture. It is amazing they ever made the changes they have. Mary Barra has continued the changed Bob help bring and GM is much better off for it.

The interdivision rivalry did a lot of damage to many cars and the Fiero is the perfect case study. But it was only one on many issues and mistakes GM made over the years. Even today we see how Cadillac is now building much better cars but are yet struggling to gain their reputation back. It will take more time and investment that GM finally has given them but they will do it. Today even as good as their cars are they have stepped up and said they are not good enough and will replace and improve most of them including the CTS and ATS. In years past they would just dump a Chevy engine in and discount the price. Today they are investing $12 Billion and even will have their own engine lines again not based on the corporate engines.
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Report this Post05-14-2015 08:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:

I remember it a bit different Furgal. I was a car nut in the 60s. We would chase down a Mopar GTX , GTO or Camaro just to get a good look at it. We went to all the dealers in September just to get the first look at the new muscle cars from every brand. It wasnt uncommon to yell out to everyone in the car "LOOK, theres a SuperBee guys !!" We drooled all over ourselves for the muscle cars we couldnt have. We all cruised in 56 Fords, Chevies and other noncool cars. I had a 52 Plymouth and a 55 Oldsmobile that I thought was bad. I about peed my pants when a friends gf let me actually drive her new 65 GTO. Those were the cars the crowds swarmed around at the local cruise in restaurants. You had a late 60s muscle car...you were a rock star. They were cheap too. I remember when Daytonas and Superbirds were selling for under $3000 brand new on the lots. Of course you could buy a house for under $15,000 new and gas was 20 cents. My parents bought our house new, 3 bedrm, 2 car garage and finished full basement for $12,000 and my first car was $150 that ran and looked perfect for 3 years.


ya ok, sure... the gto looked the same as the lemans.. unless you called a tiny difference in the grill and that fake hood scoop, a huge difference,, the mopars, same deal.. other than crazy colors..
Camaro, really, the only one that looked bad ass was the rs/ss in 69, the 67 ,68 as it came from g.m. did not scream speed..
a cuda with a 318, hell a slant 6, looks the same as the 426 hemi ones.. my 66 tempest and 66 lemans where dead ringers for gto's other than grill and scoop on hood, tempest didn't have the gills on the 1/4's ,
daytona's and superbirds dealers could not give away.. same with most of the hemi cars..
sure older cars had more style, but that's only because the government had not tied designers hands yet..
if a 20 something rolls into a cruise today with a 2015 z-28 he'll be a rockstar also.. nothings changed, other than you are older and like the cars you grew up with..
60-s mopars where not stiff by any means,, a wet noodle was stiffer, The smart guys bought the lesser body with the big stick.. and would wax the "rockstar" as you call them in their fancy muscle GTX.. etc.

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Report this Post05-14-2015 10:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I really dont think sale value has as much to do with the car as we think it does.
I think it has more to do with the age group of the buyer.
When the age group that drove them at a young age and has memories of them, or sees them as reliving their youth then reach retirement or financially affluent age, thats when they buy and value goes up.
Sure thats a generalization and doesnt fit many people or all cars, even myself, but I think its true.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 05-14-2015).]

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Report this Post05-14-2015 10:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by E.Furgal:
my 66 tempest and 66 lemans where dead ringers for gto's other than grill and scoop on hood, tempest didn't have the gills on the 1/4's ,


And tail lights, badges in and out, and for Tempest the body side molding.

Well hey other than front fascia, rear tail lights, GT badges and the fastback sails a notchie and a fastback Fiero are quite similar too.

[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 05-14-2015).]

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Report this Post05-14-2015 09:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just think if the GT's ever get to any major value some folks will clone them from SE Coupes. You will have to contact Pontiac Historical to confirm it is real LOL!

Clones in the GTO world are really an issue as so many have faked not just Tempest but they take real GTO's and then fake Ram Air cars, Judges and the like. Pontiac Historical really has been a great help to the Pontiac hobby as others like Olds lost their records in a fire and it is so easy to fake one of those cars and many are.

But then again some of these cars are so restored that many of the parts are replaces and so little of the original car is left . Where is it still original and not just a restored replica with the original number plate?
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Originally posted by 2.5:

I really dont think sale value has as much to do with the car as we think it does.
I think it has more to do with the age group of the buyer.
When the age group that drove them at a young age and has memories of them, or sees them as reliving their youth then reach retirement or financially affluent age, thats when they buy and value goes up.
Sure thats a generalization and doesnt fit many people or all cars, even myself, but I think its true.




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Report this Post05-15-2015 07:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hyperv6Send a Private Message to hyperv6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

I really dont think sale value has as much to do with the car as we think it does.
I think it has more to do with the age group of the buyer.
When the age group that drove them at a young age and has memories of them, or sees them as reliving their youth then reach retirement or financially affluent age, thats when they buy and value goes up.
Sure thats a generalization and doesnt fit many people or all cars, even myself, but I think its true.



It is part of it but the other parts is collectors are after what is seen as collectable and they have already hit the cars from the 60's. Today they have moved to the more affordable cars of the 70's as we are seeing increases in cars like the TA now. As of now not much of the 80's is seen as collectable as most of the prices have not gone up a lot. The GN is still reasonable as are Deloreans and other models. Lets fact it most cars see little increase in value till they hit 30 years old.

Then the demand and supply start to work in value favor. In many cases it is not that there are more people wanting a particular car but the fact the ready demand of good cars is getting smaller and the supply and demand work to increase the values.

The one thing we are seeing today is in the past few people save special cars in the 60's. Most got used up and few people took care of them from the start outside a few rare finds. Today many people buy a car new and sit on them as a play toy and not a daily drive. They take care of the cars and have hopes of increases values as they want to own that next Shelby. Well that has lead to today where we have a high number of cars from the 80's just sitting around in good condition. You can easily find a low mileage car if you really want one.

The truth is it takes a number of factors from the market that add up to increased values and demands not just one. As the market evolves so does the factors. but the prime mover is supply and demand. Age of the vehicle has a lot to do with this but even today with so many people parking the cars supply has out stripped demand on many cars.
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