Finally getting around to fixing my '86. I have the fastback removed and can see all the cancer that has been brewing over the years. It appears that a simple replacement would be to get some either 2" or 2 1/2" square tube and just roll it to shape. I have access to a structural shape roller at work. My son-in-law and brother operate the machine. Both say the the frame rails can be duplicated on the machine, less the holes of course. As for the sheet metal I have cut out paper shapes and am going to laser cut new sheet metal for the infected areas. I think that for the most part I can get acceptable replacement sheet metal parts for these problem areas. Initial estimates indicate I can do a set of upper frame rails for around $65.00 per pair. As for the sheet metal as I get things laid out I will start posting prices and pictures. I can also offer these parts in stainless, and you don't have to have stainless wire to weld them back into place! I would appreciate feed back, pics would be especially helpful in communications, if you are looking for specific areas you want duplicated. I realize this is a large project, but I will be working on the car all winter so I can access the desired areas for duplication.
I could use a set of frame rails for my '84. I'd rather completely replace them than patch into old crappy metal anyways. Very good price too.
side note: Did I see you tonight at the new dbq Farm & Fleet?
Yep that was me, couldn't pass up the tire deal. Got tires for both the '84 and the '86 GT for $600. You did get a good photo right? If I recall we met at the Qwik Stop back in August I was headed to the Quad Cities for a show and you were headed on a car cruise. PM me and we can get together and get what you need.
quote
Originally posted by FieroMaster88:
Yeah, I need upper frame rails and trunk corners for my indy. Would be interested if you make the parts.
Please be aware that GM engineered the front and rear sections of the space frame to absorb energy through controlled collapse in the event of an impact. Improperly designed replacement panels and upper frame rails could turn deadly in the case of a severe impact.
Originally posted by olejoedad: Please be aware that GM engineered the front and rear sections of the space frame to absorb energy through controlled collapse in the event of an impact. Improperly designed replacement panels and upper frame rails could turn deadly in the case of a severe impact.
Yup... Car frame, front and rear, is made to be strong but not too strong because those areas are part of crush zones. Replacement frame parts too stiff then could go thru "firewall" into cabin and maybe hurt or kill people. Weak crush zones from rusting or repairs then won't protect people.
Frame/cradle holes can do any or all jobs: Control fail points during a wreck Reduce overall weight Give access to fasteners Let areas to dry fast
You can see front crash testing by searching youtube. Even car's hood have build in fail points so won't go thru windshield. Fiero has Line of "notches" in the hood + 2 bolts at back and holes in the hood that lock up in a crash so they make the hood to fold up.
Many fixing frames by boxing in holes etc are only fooling themselves or worse, customers think car will be safe after repair. Most times patches means More rusting in the near future because box in area Traps moisture etc. Many Sealing plans often doesn't help or make rusting out faster. Just One small spot let in water, road salt, etc and rots from inside. I've seen OE frame and repairs that look ok on outside but the metal is so thin or even breaks from rust inside of the areas. Is why I put notes about rust issues for jacking a car. See my Cave, Safe Jacking (I recently move that section next to 10 rules.)
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
Yup... Car frame, front and rear, is made to be strong but not too strong because those areas are part of crush zones. Replacement frame parts too stiff then could go thru "firewall" into cabin and maybe hurt or kill people. Weak crush zones from rusting or repairs then won't protect people.
Frame/cradle holes can do any or all jobs: Control fail points during a wreck Reduce overall weight Give access to fasteners Let areas to dry fast
You can see front crash testing by searching youtube. Even car's hood have build in fail points so won't go thru windshield. Fiero has Line of "notches" in the hood + 2 bolts at back and holes in the hood that lock up in a crash so they make the hood to fold up.
Many fixing frames by boxing in holes etc are only fooling themselves or worse, customers think car will be safe after repair. Most times patches means More rusting in the near future because box in area Traps moisture etc. Many Sealing plans often doesn't help or make rusting out faster. Just One small spot let in water, road salt, etc and rots from inside. I've seen OE frame and repairs that look ok on outside but the metal is so thin or even breaks from rust inside of the areas. Is why I put notes about rust issues for jacking a car. See my Cave, Safe Jacking (I recently move that section next to 10 rules.)
You know you are right. The smarter thing to do would go with 2 "Z" channels in parallel with each other. That way you would still maintain the strength and keep the horizontal crush ability. The roller will roll them with no problem. I am going to give it a try.
Finally getting around to fixing my '86. I have the fastback removed and can see all the cancer that has been brewing over the years. It appears that a simple replacement would be to get some either 2" or 2 1/2" square tube and just roll it to shape. I have access to a structural shape roller at work. My son-in-law and brother operate the machine. Both say the the frame rails can be duplicated on the machine, less the holes of course. As for the sheet metal I have cut out paper shapes and am going to laser cut new sheet metal for the infected areas. I think that for the most part I can get acceptable replacement sheet metal parts for these problem areas. Initial estimates indicate I can do a set of upper frame rails for around $65.00 per pair. As for the sheet metal as I get things laid out I will start posting prices and pictures. I can also offer these parts in stainless, and you don't have to have stainless wire to weld them back into place! I would appreciate feed back, pics would be especially helpful in communications, if you are looking for specific areas you want duplicated. I realize this is a large project, but I will be working on the car all winter so I can access the desired areas for duplication.
Rich
Sorry but I agree with theogre, stay with the original thickness sheet metal and bend it with a brake and cut the holes with a drill or plasma cutter. The crush zones are imperative to keep you and your passenger safe in the event of a crash. They were built the way they are for a reason, making any of the metal of any thicker or thinner sheet metal is a recipe for disaster, not to mention a nightmare to weld a thicker or thinner peace of sheet metal to what you have left of the original space frame. I know I worked at a GM factory as repair and as a line welder for 2 years and as a professional welder in the construction industry welding everything from oil rigs to sheet metal. You start welding thicker to thinner metals and you dam well better be an accomplished welder or you are going to do some damage that can affect the structural integrity of the weld and sheet metals strength.
Stay with the same thickness sheet metal, please, for your own safety. These cars are made to take one hell of a hit in the front and the back and even from the side by the way the space frame is made, changing the thickness of the sheet metal you use will have tragic result to you and anyone in the car with you if you have an accident !
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 10-22-2014).]
I have thought about doing a reproduction frame rail, and it still is a possibility. It obviously wouldn't be a perfect match, but would look pretty close. My only issue is the cost. The dies are going to cost me about $450.00 -$500.00 per side. Then I will have to either punch the rail out or I can laser cut it. If I go with a "Z" channel 2 per side and upper and a lower, all I will have is shear, bend, and roll, which is much more economical. Now how close that will be to the structure of the original rail, I am not sure. It should mimic the crushability of the original frame. They also could be cut to fit the effected area instead of replacing the entire rail. I could also punch and form 2 Z channels with half holes and on install just weld the contact points. It would look close to stock should be comparable in strength and function as intended. Looks like I have some drawing to do.
I have thought about doing a reproduction frame rail, and it still is a possibility. It obviously wouldn't be a perfect match, but would look pretty close. My only issue is the cost. The dies are going to cost me about $450.00 -$500.00 per side. Then I will have to either punch the rail out or I can laser cut it. If I go with a "Z" channel 2 per side and upper and a lower, all I will have is shear, bend, and roll, which is much more economical. Now how close that will be to the structure of the original rail, I am not sure. It should mimic the crushability of the original frame. They also could be cut to fit the effected area instead of replacing the entire rail. I could also punch and form 2 Z channels with half holes and on install just weld the contact points. It would look close to stock should be comparable in strength and function as intended. Looks like I have some drawing to do.
Rich
You didn't post any picture of the frame rail damage, that may help us give you some ideas. there is always finding a downer car in better shape in that area at a bone yard or from someone here, you would surprised just how many here have spare cars and many sell parts. Check the mall you may be surprised.
You didn't post any picture of the frame rail damage, that may help us give you some ideas. there is always finding a downer car in better shape in that area at a bone yard or from someone here, you would surprised just how many here have spare cars and many sell parts. Check the mall you may be surprised.
Steve
The cancer on my '86 is not that bad. I just thought that as long as I am into the car this far, I might as well come up with an acceptable and economical fix to the issue most of our cars have. Obviously the ideal way to go would be to lay out the blanks and make a die and get a good reproduction. This is the pricey way to go. If I can utilize existing dies and equipment, the price per set drops dramatically.
The cancer on my '86 is not that bad. I just thought that as long as I am into the car this far, I might as well come up with an acceptable and economical fix to the issue most of our cars have. Obviously the ideal way to go would be to lay out the blanks and make a die and get a good reproduction. This is the pricey way to go. If I can utilize existing dies and equipment, the price per set drops dramatically.
Rich
Me thinks you need to talk to Nick, fierofetish ! He is an old member who got banned when he asked to be because he spent to much time here but could take a flat peace of metal and turn it into any shape he needs with just a few simple hand tools. He is an artist with a hammer and welder and a guitar as well as a pencil, just an artist at anything he does and even posted a video of how he makes some of his things on here and elsewhere. Let me see if I can find a video he posted a while back about how he made Floor rails for something he was working on with just a hammer and some vise grips and channel steel as an anvil. He does have a forum of his own just to keep in touch with old friends from here and I will ask him if he remembers the video I am talking about.
I have searched every body panel replacement rust repair place on the net and none carry any parts for our little cars, I wonder if you could make dies if you could actually sell them here for more parts than you could imagine. if that is something you can do and are interested in making some extra cash you should look into it and ask what the most common metal part is that people would be interested in buying.
Steve
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 10-24-2014).]
Me thinks you need to talk to Nick, fierofetish ! He is an old member who got banned when he asked to be because he spent to much time here but could take a flat peace of metal and turn it into any shape he needs with just a few simple hand tools. He is an artist with a hammer and welder and a guitar as well as a pencil, just an artist at anything he does and even posted a video of how he makes some of his things on here and elsewhere. Let me see if I can find a video he posted a while back about how he made Floor rails for something he was working on with just a hammer and some vise grips and channel steel as an anvil. He does have a forum of his own just to keep in touch with old friends from here and I will ask him if he remembers the video I am talking about.
I have searched every body panel replacement rust repair place on the net and none carry any parts for our little cars, I wonder if you could make dies if you could actually sell them here for more parts than you could imagine. if that is something you can do and are interested in making some extra cash you should look into it and ask what the most common metal part is that people would be interested in buying.
Steve
The problem is the cost of the dies. If I can use the laser for the blank, and the brake, panel bender and or the structural roller, I can develop lots of shapes. I see validity in the crush zone for safety. I don't have the cash outlay to develop the dies and then hope that I sell enough parts to recoup my cost. Not to mention a pure guess on what my starting price should be. I will have $1000.00 in the dies if my calculations are correct. If I make a misjudgment on the dies that price could double. If I can use existing equipment and the dies I have available, that $1000.00 becomes zero and my development costs drop and I longer have that up front cost.
I just sent Nick a link to this thread and a request for that video I was talking about he made a while back, if he can understand me and what I was asking for he should get back to me in a day or so with a link to it. when he does I will update you.
Anyone concerned about making a few parts for themselves doesn't need to get into expensive dies. Replacement parts can be made quite easily by making the dies from hard wood or even plywood and hammer-forming the sheet metal Z-sections. The sheet metal needs to be sandwiched between two pieces of wood and then gently persuaded to the shape of the wood by stretching and shrinking it with a body hammer.
Here are a few photos of an upper frame rail I made a few years ago showing the original piece, a paper template, the wooden buck, and the final piece:
And here is the installed part:
It's also possible to make more complicated parts like the lower frame rail as well by hammer-forming multiple pieces:
Nice work on yours Bloozberry You are one hell of a tin knocker to, me I am no good with that thin a peace of metal unless I am welding it, I can't shape the stuff worth a Sh!t.
Found Nick's video on you tube.
We have a lot of talented people on here in a lot of different fields not just automotive ether, many have talents in fields like computers, welding, fabrication, internet, and just about every other field on the planet, sometimes it just takes a while for the right one to read a thread.
My skills are mostly welding and fabrication of much heavier metals in bigger things like skyscrapers and paper mills, oil rigs. But if you ask I would be willing to bet you can find a skilled craftsman in just about any area right here on the forum, some are usually in all of the areas of the forum and always willing to help. I think that is why Cliff the owner made this place for us all to share our skills to help the other members who are not, he really is a computer genius !
Steve
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 10-25-2014).]
Remove the offending area and you're left with this.
Start with some 16 gauge sheet metal and put a 90° edge into it.
Cut it on the band saw.
Tack it in place.
Note: I made my patches longer than necessary! I did this because the frame rails still need to be welded in. I'll cut the excess off with the plasma cutter once the frame rails are fully installed.
Upper inner rail being made.
Trial fit.
Partially welded in.
Frame rails dollied straight and sandblasted.
Primed and painted the sheet metal behind the frame rails.
Primed and painted inside the frame rails.
A few 1/4" holes rosette welded and the right side is coming along.
Any up date on the upper frame rails being made for sale ?
The least expensive way I found was to make them 3 pieces per side, and I make them out of 16 ga stainless. I have a set on my '86, but I lost the memory chip that I had in my camera.
Well the rest of the car is in great shape. THE only metal work that needs to be done is the two frame rails and corner of trunk. Seems like a pretty common area to rust on all Fiero....figured some may have made replacements.....guess its cut and weld and cut and weld time.
There was a guy up in Michigan that had a jig and made replacements, I can't remember his name off hand.. The parts were incredibly well made. Maybe someone knows who I'm talking about.. I have no idea if he was, or is, part of the forum.
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