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Thats it, I hate the brakes. Options? by Fformula88
Started on: 05-30-2014 08:45 AM
Replies: 33 (820 views)
Last post by: Boostdreamer on 06-02-2014 11:46 PM
Fformula88
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Report this Post05-30-2014 08:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Fformula88Send a Private Message to Fformula88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have spent most of my time in Fieros (almost 20 years) driving primarily 88 Formulas (with limited time in pre-88 Fieros. Since 2012, my primary Fiero is an 85 SE 2m6.

I have decided, I absolutely HATE the brakes. I suppose it is possible I have just become spoiled by modern cars ABS/EBD/TC and other electronic aides which assist in stopping and car control. However, it just seems to me that this Fiero takes a lot more ground to come to a stop than I am comfortable with these days, and that it is difficult to modulate the brakes without locking them in an emergency situation. Both way worse than the 88's I have spent years driving. (Yes, I am aware the 88 brake system is upgraded).

Are there any realistic options which would greatly improve brake feel, modulation, and stopping power without having to go all out to a big brake kit that would necessitate larger wheels (bigger than 15's, I am running GT style lace wheels on it and do not want to go bigger)? I know about the Grand Am upgrade, but does that feel/drive like a viable upgrade? Would a different master cylinder, or anything help?

Thoughts?

[This message has been edited by Fformula88 (edited 05-30-2014).]

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Report this Post05-30-2014 09:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Scottzilla79Send a Private Message to Scottzilla79Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
What kind of tires are you running?
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Fformula88
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Report this Post05-30-2014 09:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Fformula88Send a Private Message to Fformula88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Fuzion HRi grand touring tires. In good condition too (I'd say still about 70% of tread remaining). I have had good luck with these on Formulas...

[This message has been edited by Fformula88 (edited 05-30-2014).]

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Report this Post05-30-2014 09:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BoostdreamerClick Here to Email BoostdreamerSend a Private Message to BoostdreamerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I did the "$100 Brake Upgrade" that can be found in The Mall. I did an evaluation of it in the thread that is linked in the first post. I recommend this upgrade.
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tebailey
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Report this Post05-30-2014 09:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for tebaileyClick Here to Email tebaileySend a Private Message to tebaileyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Personally, I HATE anti-lock brakes.
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Report this Post05-30-2014 09:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dcarrdSend a Private Message to dcarrdEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
anything is an improvement over stock unless you remove the pads
If cost is an issue then the Grand Am upgrade should be your best option unless you are handy at machining and fabricating parts.
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hiwil88formula
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Report this Post05-30-2014 10:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hiwil88formulaClick Here to Email hiwil88formulaSend a Private Message to hiwil88formulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I second the "$100 Brake Upgrade" big difference. I redid the whole system on my formula and added the bigger booster as well as my friends formula without the booster upgrade. It is a night and day difference. And by whole system I mean lines, hoses, master and calipers on both cars. Well worth the money.
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Report this Post05-30-2014 10:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TXOPIEClick Here to visit TXOPIE's HomePageClick Here to Email TXOPIESend a Private Message to TXOPIEEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hiwil88formula:

I second the "$100 Brake Upgrade" big difference. I redid the whole system on my formula and added the bigger booster as well as my friends formula without the booster upgrade. It is a night and day difference. And by whole system I mean lines, hoses, master and calipers on both cars. Well worth the money.


I will add my name to list... "$100 Brake Upgrade" big difference!
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Jarhead 2m4
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Report this Post05-30-2014 10:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Jarhead 2m4Click Here to visit Jarhead 2m4's HomePageClick Here to Email Jarhead 2m4Send a Private Message to Jarhead 2m4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think I have the LeBaron calipers and S-10 booster. The vented rotors help. I'm going to be upgrading to a big brake kit in the near future. Keep an eye in the mall for my old setup (minus the booster)
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theogre
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Report this Post05-30-2014 10:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Tires, Suspension especially shock/struts, and brakes parts all affect brake performance.

I have stock 87 brakes that I restored w/ Wagner TQ pads.
I have no fade problems and stop distance is good. Better that any semi-metallic pads.

"Fade" and some other problems in normal driving most always mean pads are wrong for application or calipers w/ problems.
Example wrong for application: "Racing" pads often have problems in normal driving because pads never get hot enough.
You need best pads design for use in normal driving which Wagner TQ and others are.

By restoring I mean just that and often not cheap. Like many, I had problems w/ rear calipers cause low pedal.
Beside Wagner TQ, I use rubber hose but newer SAE j1401 type hose. Often sold as "Pro Grade" hose assembles, like Raybestos PG Plus. Preforms better OE w/o problems for SS.
Other parts... 4 New rotors, New Front bearings/seals, Rebuilt rear w/ GM kit (No longer available).
Parts Cost was ~$500-600 total. ~$110 just for Raybestos PG Plus hoses.

See my Cave, Brake Service
If you read section in past, reread again.

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Report this Post05-30-2014 12:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thats it, I hate the brakes. Options? by Fformula88

throw out a boat anchor!

I got to admit I feel the same way sometimes. Stupidest ebrake and brake system GM ever built.

Steve

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Report this Post05-30-2014 01:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Steven SnyderClick Here to visit Steven Snyder's HomePageClick Here to Email Steven SnyderSend a Private Message to Steven SnyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
How easily can you lock your brakes? Does it happen at a lower-than-expected pedal pressure?
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Report this Post05-30-2014 02:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The GrandAm upgrade works very well, fade is greatly reduced due to vented rotors, no ebrake however.
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Report this Post05-30-2014 11:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Jarhead 2m4:

I think I have the LeBaron calipers and S-10 booster. The vented rotors help. I'm going to be upgrading to a big brake kit in the near future. Keep an eye in the mall for my old setup (minus the booster)


LMK when you upgrade... my Indy needs better brakes. I'm doing Grand Am in the front, but for rear I want to go seville calipers. I assume that's what you have?

It would be nice if someone made a list of all the brake upgrade options along with vendors/ part numbers.
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Report this Post05-31-2014 12:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for KitskaboodleClick Here to Email KitskaboodleSend a Private Message to KitskaboodleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tebailey:

Personally, I HATE anti-lock brakes.


Yes, especially the diabolical Teves system!
I wish my Reatta did not have it! There have been occasions where I almost needed to change my underwear.
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Report this Post05-31-2014 12:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jediperkSend a Private Message to jediperkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
On my 87 GT N* I used the vented upgrade kit from TFS with upgraded master cylinder. This was an improvement, but the big improvement came with the "$100 upgrade" (bigger brake booster) in the mall. Greatly improved the pedal feel and braking. I would start there first. My car is on the heavier side of Fiero's at 3063 lbs and for normal street use it has no problems stopping now...

[This message has been edited by jediperk (edited 05-31-2014).]

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Report this Post05-31-2014 12:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jediperk:

On my 87 GT N* I used the vented upgrade kit from TFS with upgraded master cylinder. This was an improvement, but the big improvement came with the "$100 upgrade" (bigger brake booster) in the mall. Greatly improved the pedal feel and breaking. I would start there first. My car is on the heavier side of Fiero's at 3063 lbs and for normal street use it has no problems stopping now...



This is exactly what I'm doing, but note that a turn key booster set up for Fiero is a lot more than $100.
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PaulJK
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Report this Post05-31-2014 03:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PaulJKSend a Private Message to PaulJKEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fformula88:

I have spent most of my time in Fieros (almost 20 years) ...

I have decided, I absolutely HATE the brakes.



Better late than never I guess

 
quote
Originally posted by Fformula88:

Thoughts?



I'd recommend to do the larger booster and master cylinder described in the $100 brake upgrade thread although, as Jon posted, it will cost you more than $100 . Also use the Wagner Thermo_quiet pads - REALLY nice stuff and reasonable price. These are the easiest things to start with and you can add the upgrades later if you feel you need to. Actually, this IS what i did (and feel no need to add anything else).

[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 05-31-2014).]

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Report this Post05-31-2014 04:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jediperkSend a Private Message to jediperkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post


Yeah, I know it's more than a $100 but that's what everyone is calling it... Inflation sucks don't it?
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Report this Post05-31-2014 06:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tebailey:

Personally, I HATE anti-lock brakes.


Im with you all the way. I hate all the 'aids' of new technology. EVERY accident ive had (at fault or not) was due to ABS brakes. If possible I disable them on every car I own that I can. I drove for 40 years without any ABS brakes or traction controls and NEVER hit anything. Only aid I do like is positraction. Even when I got the new Magnum, I pulled all the fuses for ABS and traction control.

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Fformula88
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Report this Post05-31-2014 07:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Fformula88Send a Private Message to Fformula88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Steven Snyder:

How easily can you lock your brakes? Does it happen at a lower-than-expected pedal pressure?


Sounds like the booster upgrade is the consensus choice for the place to start! I will look into that, and follow it with at least a pad upgrade (maybe as a start with the hardware).

Thanks for all the good feedback!

I was never a fan of ABS, or traction control either. However, I have found that some manufacturers are a LOT better at executing those aides than others. When properly executed, I find them nice to have.
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Report this Post05-31-2014 08:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for qwikgtaClick Here to Email qwikgtaSend a Private Message to qwikgtaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I installed the 12" rotors on my 88 and I'm happy with the feel of them. I still use the stock calipers, just the 12" vette rotors and kit from WCF. However, I am in the process of upgrading to the 13" Wilwood kit from AMS. Since part of the kit is to install a larger master, I may also install the larger booster at the same time. So, I may not be able to provide much info on the new system, since i'll end up replacing the whole thing, (not sure what one part of the system was better, because it all will change at the same time).

I have also heard good things about the $100 upgrade.

Rob

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[This message has been edited by qwikgta (edited 05-31-2014).]

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rogergarrison
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Report this Post05-31-2014 05:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The feeling you get having to make a panic stop with ABS is just as bad as the one you get when the pedal goes all the way to the floor. You KNOW your not going to stop and just brace for the impact thats sure to come. I know how your SUPPOSED to use them too, hold them down hard and dont let up. So far thats never worked out. Its always another object that makes the stop. Your better off to keep off the brake and relax so you dont get a broken foot when you do hit.
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Report this Post05-31-2014 05:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Jarhead 2m4Click Here to visit Jarhead 2m4's HomePageClick Here to Email Jarhead 2m4Send a Private Message to Jarhead 2m4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:


LMK when you upgrade... my Indy needs better brakes. I'm doing Grand Am in the front, but for rear I want to go seville calipers. I assume that's what you have?

It would be nice if someone made a list of all the brake upgrade options along with vendors/ part numbers.


I think they are still stock rears and only upgraded front cal/rotors. I'll give you first dibs when they come off.
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Report this Post05-31-2014 06:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RWDPLZClick Here to visit RWDPLZ's HomePageSend a Private Message to RWDPLZEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You're not spoiled until your daily drive something with Brembo's on all four corners. I ****ing love these things.
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Report this Post06-01-2014 10:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think you all do overkill...but its your thing, your car and what you think. Personally Ive found all my Fieros OEM brakes...in proper condition....are more than adequate, even for high speed or panic stops. You want really scarey, try a 6 ton RV and someone cuts in front of you and has to slam on brakes. Ive had to slide past them on the berm. It does have anti lock too, but I havent figured out if its possible to turn them off since the brakes work off the power steering pump instead of a vacumm booster.
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Report this Post06-01-2014 11:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for doublec4Click Here to Email doublec4Send a Private Message to doublec4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I also enjoy the overkill



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quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:

...You want really scarey, try a 6 ton RV and someone cuts in front of you and has to slam on brakes...


I got you beat, try a 20,000 ton, yes 20,000 TONS ! grain train going down hill on a nice cold morning.

[This message has been edited by rourke_87_T-Top (edited 06-01-2014).]

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Report this Post06-01-2014 11:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Boostdreamer:

I did the "$100 Brake Upgrade" that can be found in The Mall. I did an evaluation of it in the thread that is linked in the first post. I recommend this upgrade.


It would be nice if you could post some links instead of sending everyone searching. I did find the "100 brake upgrade" however there is no link to an evaluation that you did in the first post than I can find.

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Report this Post06-02-2014 09:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Grand am upgrade for pre 88s for sure. My buds and I out here in 600whp+ fieros do great on the street with race pads and grand am / stock 88 brakes.
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Report this Post06-02-2014 07:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cmechmannClick Here to Email cmechmannSend a Private Message to cmechmannEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It has been a long time ago, so a lot of this is just by memory. When working on them back in the 80s there were little options except for what you had. The rear calipers are not that bad if you understood how they worked. They do require more than normal maintanence. Went through a lot of pistons.
We also had these little flyers that would come out. Kind of like Tool Box talks that you see in the construction industry. Not the safety oriented ones but the "hey we been seeing this" flyers. One of the things I remembered was GMs fiddling with the proportioning/metering valve arrangements. The 84s would be a little rear heavy and would let go when the rear comes up. Heavy braking turns, panic stops. This was all hear say, but the 85s went a little too far the other way. Were heavy in the front and would let go on hard stopping turns or hard stopping when wet. Seems that they had it better in 86-87 and they just changed it all anyway. Of course this is all affected by care, tires and options.
They should have left the rear heavy and used a height metering valve for each rear wheel. Like are used on light trucks and vans. When the rear unloaded so would the brakes.
Anyway, be prepared to have to change things around, when doing mods. You might find you have to fix/mod something else to make up for changes. Some of the differences can be unexpected.
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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post06-02-2014 09:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My Fiero has stock rebuilt calipers all around and uses professional grade Wagner "Thermo Quiet" Pads. The master cylinder has also been recently rebuilt and the brake system flushed. With a meticulous brake bleed the braking action is acceptable. It would be nice to have better brakes but the security of having the eBrake is something that I do not wish to give up. I've had situations where I've had to use it, one recently on my truck where the brake lines rusted through and the system bled out. This also happened to a friend of mine and also to my son Doug,. Three incidents that I know of. It has proved the importance of the eBrake to me.

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Report this Post06-02-2014 11:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoostdreamerClick Here to Email BoostdreamerSend a Private Message to BoostdreamerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JohnWPB:

It would be nice if you could post some links instead of sending everyone searching. I did find the "100 brake upgrade" however there is no link to an evaluation that you did in the first post than I can find.


Too much of a pain to add links when posting from my phone. You linked the correct thread. Look on page 8.

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