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Now im 15 and finally found my 88 fiero project!!! by Fier-oh41229
Started on: 05-19-2014 06:11 PM
Replies: 113 (1989 views)
Last post by: Neils88 on 11-30-2014 08:45 PM
johnyrottin
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Report this Post11-24-2014 09:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for johnyrottinClick Here to Email johnyrottinSend a Private Message to johnyrottinEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here is a thought for you. Get her squared away fully in her current state. By that I mean see if you can diagnose the problem with the current 2.8 and sort out all the other little problems with her. If the 2.8 can't be sorted out get another 2.8 and swap that in. use that as your first full experience with the Fiero. Find the proper way, according to Pontiac, to pull the motor and replace it. Then when you get it 100% sorted out find another 88 cradle. Slowly build a motor/tranny setup along with wiring harness and all the bits and bobs that go along with it. This way you can do it slowly and correctly while keeping your Formula as reliable as possible.
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Fier-oh41229
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Report this Post11-24-2014 09:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Fier-oh41229Send a Private Message to Fier-oh41229Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That's what I was thinking at first. But then I realized it had more problems than I thought. My dad thinks it might need all new gaskets. Also it was down on power who knows what that could be. The rpms are pulsing from 2500 to almost dying at 500 back up to 2500. It's burning water(white smoke) and it has what appears to be a radiator leak up front. It starts up immediately then dies within a few seconds for about 5 times before it actually starts. My dad let me buy the fiero so I could learn more about building an engine. It's not meant to be practical or anything so I don't need it running and driving at all times (although that would be nice). If I could diagnose all the problems and it doesn't need a total rebuild I still wanna do some sort of build up just for educational and entertainment purposes.
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Report this Post11-24-2014 11:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for johnyrottinClick Here to Email johnyrottinSend a Private Message to johnyrottinEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Do some searches on engine surging. It could be as easy as the throttle position switch and EGR. maybe see if one of the guys from the club that lives near you and has known good ones will bring his car over and switch some over to yours. Have done that a few times to find an issue. Also build a pack of known good switches and sensors so you have backups when you are out and about. You can usually buy a known good 2.8 for around 250 bucks. 2.5 hours will have it out of the car sitting next to it...another hour to switch it out with the known good engine...2.5 to 3 back into the car. It s a one day job for that swap with a couple hands.

This is a fantastic thread I have used a few times on removal...literally follow the steps like a recipe!
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/088599.html

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Fier-oh41229
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Report this Post11-24-2014 11:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Fier-oh41229Send a Private Message to Fier-oh41229Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'll do more research on it. But I really wanna rebuild the engine cause you don't really know for sure that your getting a reliable engine unless it's freshly rebuilt. So then why not just rebuild the one I got and learn how to build an engine?
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Report this Post11-24-2014 12:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for johnyrottinClick Here to Email johnyrottinSend a Private Message to johnyrottinEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
By the way, the car looks really great! If you have small problems you want to work on use the search function. There are some great threads on cleaning our trunk carpets, removing the seats and freshening up the seat rails, etc. If you look in my recent thread on the GT I just got my daughter you can see what I do to the center consoles (I hate seeing rust in the center vents!). Also the headlight bucket and trim rings...why they are chrome I will never know. They look so much better flat black. Lots of easy fixes out there so you don't have to reinvent the wheel on "how to". Lastly, If you are struggling finding small items for the car and the local auto recyclers don't have any Fieros in their yards let folks know. There are some yards around that don't crush their Fieros so we may be able to find the parts for you. I know when I get them for people I don't charge any markup...just what the yard charges me for the parts. Fun to go spend the day taking stuff off and seeing folks keep their Fieros on the roads. Keep an eye out for my Homelink thread. I should have it up soon.
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Fier-oh41229
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Report this Post11-24-2014 12:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fier-oh41229Send a Private Message to Fier-oh41229Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Other than the engine it's pretty decent. It needs paint but mostly it's all good. Almost rust free. It was a barn find so it was sitting for like 14 years without winter.
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Report this Post11-24-2014 12:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for css9450Click Here to Email css9450Send a Private Message to css9450Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Johnnyrottin and the others make some good points. I have to agree - get it running correctly before doing anything else to the car.

I think the vast majority of Fiero problems are minor issues. Maybe a bunch of minor issues, but they're still minor issues.

You mentioned a coolant leak. Get that fixed first. Check the timing. Need plugs and wires? Johnnyrottin already suggested the TPS. I'd bet there's nothing wrong with your engine that a few hours of easy work won't fix. PLUS you'll learn valuable diagnostic skills which you WILL need later if you do a swap or even a rebuild.

How are the brakes? Barn finds rarely have good brakes. Sure, they're not as exciting as a new engine but you need to get them working correctly too.
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Fier-oh41229
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Report this Post11-24-2014 01:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fier-oh41229Send a Private Message to Fier-oh41229Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well it seems that everybody unanimously thinks I should keep the engine and fix the problems instead of do a rebuild. So since you guys are the experts that's probably what I'll do. I have no idea what is wrong with the pulsing part though. My thought is either the fuel pump isn't working right or the fuel filter is clogged.
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Report this Post11-24-2014 09:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for virtuetoviceSend a Private Message to virtuetoviceEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
At the end of the day it's your ride and you should do what you want. If you wanna rebuild to understand engines better, GO FOR IT! Just take your time and do it properly. Label your parts, torque everything to spec, etc. and use GOOD gaskets and bearings. For now resist temptations to do too much modding. Understand a motor from the inside out before you go modifying. Understanding what you're looking at will enable you to make much more informed decisions that will ultimately result in a better end result.

For example, I can go and strap a t3 turbo to my 2.8 and crank it up to 25 lbs of boost right now as it sits, but there are things on the inside of the engine that wouldn't appreciate that too much

[This message has been edited by virtuetovice (edited 11-24-2014).]

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Fier-oh41229
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Report this Post11-24-2014 09:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fier-oh41229Send a Private Message to Fier-oh41229Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I told pops that it might be better to not do the rebuild or the 3.1 and he said "What has gotten into you? Since when has logic and reason ever stopped you from doing what you want? Isn't that how you ended up with a fiero?" lol so apparently were doing some sort of rebuild. I guess if when we pull the engine nothing is really wrong and it doesn't need to be bored then ill put some new gaskets and clean it up and fix any minor problems and worn parts. If it does need a rebuild then ill probably do the 3.1 crank/pistons along with a rebuild. The reason i want to pull everything apart is because i have more fun building/tuning engines than i do actually driving/riding. I think it will be fun and educational. Since its not my daily car i dont have much to lose accept my slightly less limited funds.
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84fiero123
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Report this Post11-24-2014 10:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fier-oh41229:
I'll do more research on it. But I really wanna rebuild the engine cause you don't really know for sure that your getting a reliable engine unless it's freshly rebuilt. So then why not just rebuild the one I got and learn how to build an engine?


Sure you do, by a few simple tests you can verify how good or bad your old engine is, seeing it was a barn find I wouldn't think its impossible that it needs most of the gaskets replaced, maybe a ring job and other minor things but a complete rebuild to make it a reliable DD? I think not, if Dad is an engineer ask him about doing a compression test, first a dry one then a wet one on all the cylinders. Then a vacuum test of all the vacuum lines and make sure everything is holding on all the tests you do not just the psi. if they don't hold then there can be other problems to look for with other tests. You might have one cylinder have a lower reading than an other because of something simple like a burnt valve.

seeing you and some others were so interested in that book I mentioned I will see if I can post it here for all to see, I have been getting PMs and will try listing the pages.

but while I am doing that I will give you something to wet your whistle about a Fiero that is a legend here on the forum and else where.

Smokey Yunick’s Hot Vapor Fiero; 51 mpg and 0-60 in less than 6 Seconds! See and hear it run in our exclusive VIDEO!

Remember that name, he is a legend for someone who wasn't an engineer !

http://www.legendarycollect...our-exclusive-video/

enjoy

Steve

[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 11-24-2014).]

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Report this Post11-24-2014 10:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for VikingRedBaronClick Here to Email VikingRedBaronSend a Private Message to VikingRedBaronEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fier-oh41229:

It's burning water(white smoke) and it has what appears to be a radiator leak up front.


This alone would make me want to take the engine out and open it up !!!

I say pull the engine and open it up and see what it needs. That is how one learns.
My guess is it could be bored, and I would put a 3.1 crank in it. But then again I am biased as
I may just do the same thing to my Red Formula.




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Report this Post11-24-2014 11:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
































































I hope I got all of those and no duplicates and I have to apologies for the fuzziness of the pictures but that was the way I got them from who ever it was who posted them the first time.

Steve
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Report this Post11-25-2014 12:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Fier-Oh41229: No comment on the safety information to show your father?

Also, Here is a great guide, and a lot of nice tips, step by step on how to remove the stock 2.8 form a Fiero. Watch this all the way through, at least to familiarize yourself with things, so while you are working, you can remember bits and pieces to make the job far easier.

Note: you may know this, you may not, the engine removal for a Fiero is different than just about every other car out there in the fact that it is removed from BENEATH the car, and not lifted out of the engine bay.

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Report this Post11-25-2014 08:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JohnWPB:

Fier-Oh41229: No comment on the safety information to show your father?

Also, Here is a great guide, and a lot of nice tips, step by step on how to remove the stock 2.8 form a Fiero. Watch this all the way through, at least to familiarize yourself with things, so while you are working, you can remember bits and pieces to make the job far easier.

Note: you may know this, you may not, the engine removal for a Fiero is different than just about every other car out there in the fact that it is removed from BENEATH the car, and not lifted out of the engine bay.



I think if you read all his posts from the beginning of the thread, a lot I know but his dad does know about the safety of the Fiero in crashes and it was probably one of the reasons he let him get one. I bet dad even knew the cars factory installed engine were under powered as well, making it an even easier decision for him to get it. Any of us who were drivers and owned cars made in the 80s knew they were under powered the 70s and 80s were years that all cars made were underpowered by design because of government regulations being HP killers and the engineering being behind the times or not being able to keep ahead of the regulations to keep high HP engines in the cars built during that time. Think of it this way compared to just a 10 year old car now that is marketed to the younger motor heads, a lost term with the younger generations as they just want to be able to reprogram the computer to get more HP rather than actually build a good high HP engine, the Fiero is probably half the HP of anything under 10 years old today. Plus there were the gas shortages of the 70s that killed the manufacturers need for building gas guzzling sports cars and they made them look fast but they were all show and no go.

Those of us who grew up and were drivers of cars made before the 70s knew what a high HP car was, hell my first sports car, not my first car but my first sports car was a 67 Pontiac firebird 400 ci. 4 barrel carb. that had out of the factory 365 HP I think it was. That right there made me a lifelong Pontiac man from the day I sat in the first 67 Firebird at a factory show for the GM plant my dad was working at in 66. That was before you did anything to it, mild by todays standards for new sports cars but not to shabby for a 60s era new car.

Steve

[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 11-25-2014).]

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Report this Post11-25-2014 09:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fier-oh41229:

It's burning water(white smoke) and it has what appears to be a radiator leak up front.



 
quote
Originally posted by VikingRedBaron:
This alone would make me want to take the engine out and open it up !!!

I say pull the engine and open it up and see what it needs. That is how one learns.
My guess is it could be bored, and I would put a 3.1 crank in it. But then again I am biased as
I may just do the same thing to my Red Formula.





That can be and most likely is just a bad head gasket, something that doesn't require an entire engine rebuild as long as the original owner didn't drive it forever with it that way. Check the oil and antifreeze for water contamination from that, easy enough to see with a visual inspection of the oil and water without ever tarring down the complete engine. If the antifreeze has a brown sludge to it or the oil level keeps rising and he is losing antifreeze in the cooling system that is a simple look and see before ever even pulling the engine, while repairs like that are much easier to do with the engine removed it is not a necessity. I would recommend doing some simple quick tests before ever doing a complete rebuild, it is not always a necessity.

Steve

[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 11-25-2014).]

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quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:
I think if you read all his posts from the beginning of the thread, a lot I know but his dad does know about the safety of the Fiero in crashes and it was probably one of the reasons he let him get one.


I think you missed his post on page 2 of this thread

 
quote
Originally posted by Fier-oh41229:
My dad likes to constantly remind me that its my PROJECT car not my daily driver (hes convinced the fiero is a death trap


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Report this Post11-25-2014 04:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for johnyrottinClick Here to Email johnyrottinSend a Private Message to johnyrottinEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here is a safety video on the Fiero:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwUWRuOGHUQ

Here is a PDF in which the Fiero tied for first in safety ratings....believe it was on par or near the Volvo 240 Wagon
gafiero.akroncdnr.com/docs/FieroSafety.pdf

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quote
Originally posted by JohnWPB:



Oh I forgot dad is an engineer who knows everything about any given subject because he is and engineer. A common problem with many of them, just because they have a degree in engineering, doesn't matter what field they know everything in any field. Oops It doesn't matter

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

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Report this Post11-25-2014 05:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fier-oh41229Send a Private Message to Fier-oh41229Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think it's just he thinks cause it looks fast and small that it's dangerous. When in reality it's probably not much faster than your average riced up civic. I havnt shown him the crash test but ive told him about the 5 star rating and how it was second only to the Volvo before. I think it's just because I'm his son and he wants to make sure I'm safe
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quote
Originally posted by johnyrottin:

Here is a safety video on the Fiero:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwUWRuOGHUQ

Here is a PDF in which the Fiero tied for first in safety ratings....believe it was on par or near the Volvo 240 Wagon
gafiero.akroncdnr.com/docs/FieroSafety.pdf


Both of those are in the last post on page 2 of this thread and kind of what I have been referring to in my last few posts
 
quote
Originally posted by Fier-oh41229:
I think it's just because I'm his son and he wants to make sure I'm safe


You sir, are wise beyond your years, that is EXACTLY what it is. Maybe the information will at least put him mind at ease a bit, knowing the Fiero actually as a pretty good safety rating.

[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 11-25-2014).]

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Report this Post11-25-2014 08:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tsharkSend a Private Message to tsharkEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just watch oil leaks and check the fuel lines. I'll leave it there for the Fiero.

My sister's first car was an '85 Aries. The fuel filter burst, sprayed fuel all over the hot exhaust manifold, and the car went up in flames. Probably fewer than 500 miles on the fuel filter.
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quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:


That can be and most likely is just a bad head gasket, something that doesn't require an entire engine rebuild as long as the original owner didn't drive it forever with it that way.



That's more than likely what happened to my engine. Bad head gasket with continued driving=lots of metal shavings in oil pan
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quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:


Oh I forgot dad is an engineer who knows everything about any given subject because he is and engineer. A common problem with many of them, just because they have a degree in engineering, doesn't matter what field they know everything in any field. Oops It doesn't matter

Steve



Steve Steve Steve...and you were doing so well....
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quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:


Oh I forgot dad is an engineer who knows everything about any given subject because he is and engineer. A common problem with many of them, just because they have a degree in engineering, doesn't matter what field they know everything in any field. Oops It doesn't matter

Steve




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Report this Post11-25-2014 10:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for johnyrottinClick Here to Email johnyrottinSend a Private Message to johnyrottinEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think my dad wasn't too keen on mine back in the day either...
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Report this Post11-25-2014 11:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by Neils88:
Steve Steve Steve...and you were doing so well....


Neil, Neil, Neil.... and you expected it to last ? Seriously !

Sorry been trying to quit smoking and the last few weeks have not exactly been trouble free as far as vehicles go for me !


 
quote
Originally posted by Fier-oh41229:




Fier-oh41229 don't take it so hard I dislike all engineers with an equal amount of distaste, most of them anyway, ask anyone of them on the forum here, and given time you will to once you start working on your Fiero or just about any car. Some of the things they design are beyond belief. Then they say it wasn't the engineer it was the bean counters or this or that. Typical pass the buck tactics, sure sometimes they are right but I have worked with engineers for over 50 years in the automotive and construction fields and I have heard it all, the excuses. From the just out of school ones to the 20+ years working in the field ones.

When I started on the assembly line at GM some of my favorites were,

But it worked on paper ! Give you any idea how old I was when I heard that one.
The Bean counters made me do it that way !
It was made to be assembled not repaired ! That is one they tell you when you have to replace something like a heater core. Yet to replace one on my 77 LTD II it was only a 15 min job !
But the computer says it works ! WTF just

And just so many more.

Steve

[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 11-26-2014).]

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Report this Post11-26-2014 10:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Fier-oh41229Send a Private Message to Fier-oh41229Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My dad works for GM. Believe me he is just as frustrated with the stupidity of the engineers (not all but quite a few where he works)". He could give you a laundry list of problems. In fact he is so done with GM cars "engineering" that he won't even buy them anymore. My dad is the one they call in day and night to fix everything cause they don't know what they're doing.
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quote
Originally posted by Fier-oh41229:

My dad works for GM. Believe me he is just as frustrated with the stupidity of the engineers (not all but quite a few where he works)". He could give you a laundry list of problems. In fact he is so done with GM cars "engineering" that he won't even buy them anymore. My dad is the one they call in day and night to fix everything cause they don't know what they're doing.


Funny I was the one they sent in to fix the things that others screwed up in a project when I was working as a welder, because I was, Mr. Fix it, or The Rework Master. I thought outside the box, sometime you have to, to get the job done and done right ! At GM when I was repair they sent me to fix things others had screwed up on the line and they needed it done right and quick.

Good luck on your car and getting dad to understand it really is a safe car.

Steve

[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 11-26-2014).]

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Fier-oh41229
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Report this Post11-30-2014 11:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Fier-oh41229Send a Private Message to Fier-oh41229Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well... After about 5 times of quick starting then dying within the first few seconds of starting we got it running... Sorta... It was surging from 1600 to 500 back up to 1600 and it would almost die but then quickly go back up. We tried re connecting the ground wire and still the same thing. Eventually it got running normal and then we noticed the exhaust headers were glowing orange (I have a picture). So we shut it off and then tried starting it about 5 mins later and it refused to start at all. It was turning over and this demonic grinding noise came screeching out of it. My dad and grandpa had never heard anything like that before... I've decided on rebuilding the entire engine. Were gona drop the engine next weekend and check to see if we need to bore the cylinders. Then I'll decide wether or not to go 3.1 crankshaft or not. Then we can dig in.
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Fier-oh41229

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quote
Originally posted by Fier-oh41229:

Eventually it got running normal and then we noticed the exhaust headers were glowing orange


Are you sure its not something simple like the timing being way off? Or the cat plugged?

An engine rebuild (or swap) is an expensive and time consuming way to fix a timing problem.
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Report this Post11-30-2014 01:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fier-oh41229Send a Private Message to Fier-oh41229Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have no idea what it is or what it could be. I want to rebuild the engine anyway and this is a good excuse. When the engine starts running smooth it idles at 1500rpm which is a bit high. There is a bit of smoke coming off the engine which is probably a bit of oil burning off the engine. There is a slow coolant leak out of either the radiator or the hoses. Thats about all i know.
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Report this Post11-30-2014 08:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Neils88Click Here to Email Neils88Send a Private Message to Neils88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fier-oh41229:

I have no idea what it is or what it could be. I want to rebuild the engine anyway and this is a good excuse. When the engine starts running smooth it idles at 1500rpm which is a bit high. There is a bit of smoke coming off the engine which is probably a bit of oil burning off the engine. There is a slow coolant leak out of either the radiator or the hoses. Thats about all i know.


A lot of people here keep telling that you don't need to rebuild the engine to fix the problem. But I totally understand that you want to take the opportunity to get to know more about the inner workings of an engine by doing the rebuild. Personally, I think this is a great idea. I agree with others that an engine rebuild would be overkill for a basic repair, but there is definitely lots of value from an educational point of view. Go for it, take your time with it and pay close attention as the rebuild progresses.
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