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Haus of Guru: Project Creation-full disclosure by bmwguru
Started on: 01-19-2013 02:13 PM
Replies: 171 (7056 views)
Last post by: mptighe on 02-24-2015 12:22 AM
bmwguru
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This build starts back on 12/18/2009. Michael dropped off his car to TexasGT’s shop. The first build thread can be seen here.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/078836.html

We tried to do another build thread when we first took this project on, but the opinions created too much tension and I really didn’t need the build going in a new direction, so we had Cliff close the thread down. I wanted to be left alone to do my thing.
Now keep in mind that I own a German only repair shop. The Fieros are a part time gig for us. Sometimes we are too busy and we don’t touch them for months at a time. This will be my last build for the public for a while. We are going to focus on the German cars for a bit.
I insisted that Michael could tell me his goals and he give me Carte Blanche on the build. Basically, I do what I felt needed to be done to complete the task. I believe he will be very happy.

When we took this project on, I discussed in great detail with Michael about his end goal.
The end goal is this:
400-420whp
Very little to no turbo lag
F40 6 speed
Setup to be driven daily in Houston
User friendly
Air conditioning is a must!
Michael really liked the look of the Camaro intake with turbo above the trans. He insisted we go that route.
Reinstall the missing trunk to fit both the exhaust and the t-tops


The end goal is not to have the fastest Fiero, but to have a fun to drive car, well balanced, with a manual transmission that is done cleanly and can take home some trophies on occasion while blowing the doors off most street cars.

If I remember correctly, we sold or scrapped everything. Not much was usable for our goals. We kept the fuel pump, injectors and ZZP fuel rails.

I found a series III with 15,000 miles on it and I bought it. Michael picked up the F40 six speed and we had it sent out for the torsional LSD and cyro treatment.

At the present time, no one has completed a 3800/F40 combo, so there would be a lot of trial and error to overcome. We also were the third shop to get our hands in this setup, so we essentially had to put the car back together and then build the new swap. We did a lot more than just a motor swap, the suspension and brakes were redone amongst other things.

To get the ball rolling, here is a completed pic from a few months ago. We have since updated a few minor things.




Our build list consists of this:

Series III 3800
F40 six speed. Cyro treated internals and LSD
Spec stage 3+ clutch, aluminum flywheel and custom spacer for the HTOB. (it only took three times for them to get the measurement right, but in the end it works)
Driveshaft shop axles and V8 Archie jackshaft.
255LPH fuel pump…..unknown brand…..already was in the tank and tested good. This is our weak link.
Double roller timing chain/130lb valve springs
Stattama ST-4 camshaft (we were originally planning on cylinder heads upgrade, but we didn’t due to personal reasons. The cam was already installed at the time we made this decision. Regardless, I am happy with the camshaft choice.
Custom handmade headers and exhaust with Magnaflow muffler.
1997 Camaro intake manifolds
Air to air intercooler
60lb injectors
LS1 MAF sensor
Devil’s own methanol injection
Turbonetics GTK-500 turbocharger (I spent quite a bit of time on the phone with Turbonetics discussing our goals and this is the turbo they recommended. I am very pleased with this setup)
Tial 38m wastegate
ZZP’s 50mm blow off valve
Guru wiring harness and low mount alternator kit
Here are a bunch of pics:

Porting and polishing the intake manifolds.


ST-4 camshaft install


POR 15 engine bay


Test fit of drive train


The oil filter and axle interfered and the first solution was to heat and bend the aluminum, pressure test it and it did work, but I wasn’t happy with it. I wanted to do a better job…


The solution was a remote oil filter.


Our handmade headers. All 304 stainless steel and TIG welded.


More test fitting


I also was soooooo anal about the turbo oil feeds and return lines. Not just that, but also the wastegate flow. It had to be perfect.
Here is the return drain. I located it higher in the pan because the oil level sender was an inch lower than I wanted to use it for a return.


The flow of the wastegate should be in the flow of the exhaust. Not on a 90 degree angle.

Cold air intake


BOV location


Not pictured, but I took apart ZZP’s fuel logs and made a returnless fuel system to keep the engine bay cleaner. The pressure regulator was relocated to the fuel filter area.

Intercooler setup with oil filter. It is hard to tell from the pic, but the heat exchanger is on a decent angle, but still has more than adequate flow. I was worried I would have to build a shield around it, but it seems to get enough air for what we are building.


Whodeanie’s modded taillights……I do love them.


I emailed Ryan from Sinister Performance and asked for some assistance getting the turbo base tune worked out. He was beyond helpful and it got the car streetable. My base tune was ok, but something wasn’t right with it and I wanted a second opinion. I wound up mixing and matching both of our tunes into one tune for the car.
I have been driving the car almost everyday to run errands and get some test miles on it. I couldn’t get a proper tune by street driving. The car would lose traction after 4500rpms due to the cool temperatures.

I rented a dyno for a full day yesterday and had to spend some time getting the fueling in spec before we could make any real runs.
The very first run, we ran on only the 8.5psi wastegate and had to pull at 4,500rpms because it went too lean. We made a measly 303whp. I wasn’t concerned with numbers yet though. I wanted to get the tune right.

After a bit of playing, we got the baseline dialed in. The car has ZERO turbo lag due to the smaller size turbo, but on 8.5psi we generated 334whp. That in my opinion was very good because I knew where this was headed.

Next step, I turned the boost up to 12psi and took a few runs and fine tuned the fueling. 385whp/410ft lbs torque.

Next we went to 14.8psi. 419whp/442ft lbs of torque.

I was happy. We hit our goal. But, we haven’t turned the methanol injection on yet. First run with the meth, we lost 50whp and the fueling was way too rich. Made some adjustments and got it back to where I wanted it. Now that we had the meth on and the tuning set, we added 4 degrees of timing and raised the boost to 16.5psi. We had zero KR, running 18 degrees of timing at full throttle and we got 457.9whp/476ft lbs in 4th gear and 460.8whp/457ft lbs in 3rd gear.

There is still room to go more, but we did 17 pulls yesterday and got it 100% in my opinion. I don’t need to push it any further, and I don’t think the fuel pump can keep up for anything more. The car leaned out at redline on 16.5psi, but not anywhere dangerous.



So, any comments or questions?

------------------

www.hausofguru.com

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 01-19-2013).]

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troyboy
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Report this Post01-19-2013 02:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 1988holleyformulaSend a Private Message to 1988holleyformulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Any dyno video?

Looks like a great multi-purpose Fiero!
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I do have a video or two from the dyno. I'll link it to youtube later today or tomorrow. I would have taken more videos, but I spent a majority of the day in the passenger seat with the laptop on the dyno.
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Report this Post01-19-2013 02:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FormulaSend a Private Message to FormulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Very nice! It sounds like you met his goals exactly.

[This message has been edited by Formula (edited 01-19-2013).]

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quote
Originally posted by Formula:

Very nice! It sounds like you met his goals exactly.



Thank you.
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Report this Post01-19-2013 03:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula:

Very nice! It sounds like you met his goals exactly.



That he did, I secretly hoped for 500 WHP @ 18 PSI, but like Dave said, for that to happen we'd need to change out fuel pumps. If I throw another task at Dave now, he'll probably kill me. Next year I might go with some ZZP heads, and if I do I'll have the fuel pump changed out then. Dave said the injectors are only at 80% of their duty cycle, so I should be good with just those changes and a tweak to the tune IF I go that route.

I'm impressed that Dave hit this the way he did. A lot of guys are running much larger turbos, but the way Dave did it seems to be pretty efficient, and like he said this car isn't really a contender for the 1/4 record. He's going to drive it a bit more and make sure everything is sound, I'm going to go up and check it out, then we're shipping it back.

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 01-19-2013).]

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Report this Post01-19-2013 03:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Curious, if I'm running 460ish at the wheels, how much is being lost through the drivetrain? What do you think the BHP is?

OH, and I forgot to ask, how did the clutch hold up during the dyno? Any slippage?

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 01-19-2013).]

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Report this Post01-19-2013 03:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FormulaSend a Private Message to FormulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by mptighe:


That he did, I secretly hoped for 500 WHP @ 18 PSI, but like Dave said, for that to happen we'd need to change out fuel pumps. If I throw another task at Dave now, he'll probably kill me. Next year I might go with some ZZP heads, and if I do I'll have the fuel pump changed out then. Dave said the injectors are only at 80% of their duty cycle, so I should be good with just those changes and a tweak to the tune IF I go that route.

I'm impressed that Dave hit this the way he did. A lot of guys are running much larger turbos, but the way Dave did it seems to be pretty efficient, and like he said this car isn't really a contender for the 1/4 record. He's going to drive it a bit more and make sure everything is sound, I'm going to go up and check it out, then we're shipping it back.


I think you'll be plenty happy with 460whp. Remember the car came with 135 crank hp stock
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quote
Originally posted by mptighe:

Curious, if I'm running 460ish at the wheels, how much is being lost through the drivetrain? What do you think the BHP is?

OH, and I forgot to ask, how did the clutch hold up during the dyno? Any slippage?



No slippage whatsoever and figure 18% loss through the drivetrain
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Report this Post01-19-2013 03:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula:

I think you'll be plenty happy with 460whp. Remember the car came with 135 crank hp stock


True, my Del Sol had more power than my Fiero lol
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Report this Post01-19-2013 03:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for nitroheadz28Send a Private Message to nitroheadz28Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Very nice work, I'm sure mp is more than satisfied!
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I apologize for the low quality video. I took it more for the sound....



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quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:

I apologize for the low quality video. I took it more for the sound....




That sounds MUCH better than the whine of a SC IMO. It sounds really smooth. I wouldn't hate you if you got a decent video of the exhaust
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Report this Post01-19-2013 05:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by troyboy:



Hey Troy, wasn't your car somewhere in this range before you went SC? If so, then I'm right where I was hoping to be since we know the F40 held up at your old power level without any issues.
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Report this Post01-19-2013 05:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
have you done a quickish, redline 3rd to 4th gear shift on the road yet?
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quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:

I apologize for the low quality video. I took it more for the sound....



No worries, I asked about them for the sound, not to see stationary car...

Love that turbo sound, great job Guru!
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quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:

have you done a quickish, redline 3rd to 4th gear shift on the road yet?


No. Normally, I would but the speed vs the temperature vs the summer tires would equal my wife cashing in our life insurance policy and my life's goal is to outlive her so I can buy the new supercar of choice.

Dave
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quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:

have you done a quickish, redline 3rd to 4th gear shift on the road yet?


Are you asking because of the guy that fragged that F40 in his W Body?
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Really nice, extremely smooth too.
SWEET!
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I think the cyro treated F40 will hold up.....I beat on Charlie's car pretty good. I got pulled over doing over 120mph in his car. I didn't realize I got pulled over until I turned into a parking lot to turn around and the cop caught up to me. No ticket....I had to give the cop a ride in the car though. I know most of the local police and they know the Fieros I build.

Dave
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quote
Originally posted by mptighe:


Are you asking because of the guy that fragged that F40 in his W Body?


clutch.
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quote
Originally posted by mptighe:


Hey Troy, wasn't your car somewhere in this range before you went SC? If so, then I'm right where I was hoping to be since we know the F40 held up at your old power level without any issues.


Yes Sir!! You are in LS7 territory and with your future mods you will pass it!
this is before the SC

you are now a LS7 Z06 killer. The F40 held nicely at that power range and still is holding even with the SC. It's not a track car but trust me I drive it hard just ask my co-pilot Archie .
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Report this Post01-19-2013 06:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BV MotorSportsClick Here to Email BV MotorSportsSend a Private Message to BV MotorSportsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I didn't realize you were running meth. That explains alot and (don't start a flame war) helps what I think you are going to lose with that A2A setup with all that Texas heat. Otherwise I am happy for you!

[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 01-19-2013).]

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Originally posted by BV MotorSports:

I didn't realize you were running meth. That explains alot and (don't start a flame war) helps what I think you are going to lose with that A2A setup with all that Texas heat. Otherwise I am happy for you!



BV sorry that was my mistake Dave just corrected me. Once again sorry lets keep it clean.
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Originally posted by troyboy:


BV sorry that was my mistake Dave just corrected me. Once again sorry lets keep it clean.


LOL like I said, I am not trying to start anything here. I think its great the car is done and it looks & runs awesome. Its just my opinion a2a doesnt work well in a mid engined car, HOWEVER, meth will solve that in short order!

Its all good Troy. BTW, your car is insane.. WOW. I'd love to have that in my garage!
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quote
Originally posted by troyboy:
you are now a LS7 Z06 killer. The F40 held nicely at that power range and still is holding even with the SC. It's not a track car but trust me I drive it hard just ask my co-pilot Archie .


having done it in justins car.. its quite possible but... its a close race.
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Report this Post01-19-2013 06:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FormulaSend a Private Message to FormulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:


having done it in justins car.. its quite possible but... its a close race.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkdmu2M7qFo

[This message has been edited by Formula (edited 01-19-2013).]

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quote
Originally posted by BV MotorSports:

I didn't realize you were running meth. That explains alot and (don't start a flame war) helps what I think you are going to lose with that A2A setup with all that Texas heat. Otherwise I am happy for you!



I had an air to water when I sent it up, but Dave and I discussed things and went with air to air. The way it was explained to me was the air to water is for guys who take it to the track, do a run then put in ice or whatever in to cool it down. I was under the impression (I may be wrong) that air to water suffers from heat soak more quickly in normal driving conditions, but I may be mistaken. I do know that if the pump fails in an air to water it's bad juju. I wanted something less prone to failure. Yeah, the meth is the equalizer, and is hooked up in a VERY safe fashion, so hopefully Murphy's Law won't bite me in the ass.
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Report this Post01-19-2013 06:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by troyboy:


Yes Sir!! You are in LS7 territory and with your future mods you will pass it!
this is before the SC
you are now a LS7 Z06 killer. The F40 held nicely at that power range and still is holding even with the SC. It's not a track car but trust me I drive it hard just ask my co-pilot Archie .



Nice, if you switched our TQ and HP numbers around, we'd be right on top of each other. Yeah you could say I'm very pleased with this, thanks Dave!
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Report this Post01-19-2013 07:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FormulaSend a Private Message to FormulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by troyboy:


Yes Sir!! You are in LS7 territory and with your future mods you will pass it!
this is before the SC

you are now a LS7 Z06 killer. The F40 held nicely at that power range and still is holding even with the SC. It's not a track car but trust me I drive it hard just ask my co-pilot Archie .


Was that a stock ls7 before you supercharged it?
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I advised michael to buy hp tuners and have someone local check the tune in texas. My advice if the a2a intercooler isn't keeping up would be to go with co2 sprayers on the heat exchanger.
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quote
Originally posted by mptighe:


I had an air to water when I sent it up, but Dave and I discussed things and went with air to air. The way it was explained to me was the air to water is for guys who take it to the track, do a run then put in ice or whatever in to cool it down. I was under the impression (I may be wrong) that air to water suffers from heat soak more quickly in normal driving conditions, but I may be mistaken. I do know that if the pump fails in an air to water it's bad juju. I wanted something less prone to failure. Yeah, the meth is the equalizer, and is hooked up in a VERY safe fashion, so hopefully Murphy's Law won't bite me in the ass.


YOu you are so tempting fate with those comments! I hope you are running a fail-safe for the meth. You ARE arent you? And yes, heat soak is a REAL problem for w2a. Thats why you have to size the capacity correctly.. problem is, the more capacity, the more weight you add. I like its consistency. I have switched several OEM a2a cars to w2a to suit my personal preference. YMMV.

Anyway, get out there and enjoy that beast!
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BV MotorSports
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Report this Post01-19-2013 07:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BV MotorSportsClick Here to Email BV MotorSportsSend a Private Message to BV MotorSportsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:

I advised michael to buy hp tuners and have someone local check the tune in texas. My advice if the a2a intercooler isn't keeping up would be to go with co2 sprayers on the heat exchanger.
Dave


With meth, he shouldn't need to do anything. That will really cool the charge temps down. Worst-case, he'd need a bigger meth nozzle. I don't know how much you are spraying, but that really should have reduced your IDC and bought you some headroom with the fuel system.

One last thng, you really did do an awesome job on his car. There arent many good Fiero shops left out there. I'd say you are at the top.. please dont forget us. I know its only a tiny part of your business, but for the quality of work you do and your business ethics, we need more shops like yours. And believe me, I dont endorse many people anymore, so take it for what you will.

[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 01-19-2013).]

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MstangsBware
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Report this Post01-19-2013 07:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MstangsBwareClick Here to Email MstangsBwareSend a Private Message to MstangsBwareEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Nice build with some good #s in the end. I would be leary about sending the car home with it tuned depending on the meth injection. Maybe I mis read but is that the plan? I expect to see the car at the next big Tx Fiero event.
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troyboy
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Report this Post01-19-2013 07:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for troyboyClick Here to Email troyboySend a Private Message to troyboyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula:


Was that a stock ls7 before you supercharged it?


Yes that was before we added the supercharger the dyno was a stock LS7.
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mptighe
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Report this Post01-19-2013 08:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Mstangs

You'll have to ask Dave for specifics of how it's hooked up, but he assured me it's relatively easy to keep it from going dry with his method. I'm definitely going to look into HP Tuners, but it may have to wait until I recover from the final cost and the emergency room fees to have my perma wood alleviated. "I swear doc, I didn't od on Viagra."

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 01-19-2013).]

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bmwguru
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Report this Post01-19-2013 08:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by MstangsBware:

Nice build with some good #s in the end. I would be leary about sending the car home with it tuned depending on the meth injection. Maybe I mis read but is that the plan? I expect to see the car at the next big Tx Fiero event.


The only time it was dependant on the meth was over 14psi. I will discuss the options with michael when he comes to pick it up. I have a few ideas to run past him, but in the end it will be his decision.
Dave
ps. Thank you all for the compliments. Im glad to be a part of another great build.

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 01-19-2013).]

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LFiero67
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Report this Post01-19-2013 08:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LFiero67Click Here to Email LFiero67Send a Private Message to LFiero67Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Air to water will only heat soak if you don't have a front mount heat exchanger. Alot of drag cars don't run one and rely on ice to cool the intercooler. Street cars generally have a heat exchanger to dump the heat back into the air as you drive. The down falls of air to water are the extra weight, and yes, if the pump fails it can be bad. Air to air is less maintenance and risk of engine damage, but I believe air to water will out perform air to air in terms of temperature drop and pressure drop across the core leading to more power.

------------------
10.263 @ 134.44MPH - 1.49 60'
Billet 6262 Precision turbo, PT1001 intercooler, ST1 cam, 130lb springs, comp pushrods, HV3, ARP Rod bolts, otherwise stock L36.


Old M90 XP Cam time -
11.425 @115.60
1.543 60'

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mptighe
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Report this Post01-19-2013 09:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by LFiero67:

Air to water will only heat soak if you don't have a front mount heat exchanger. Alot of drag cars don't run one and rely on ice to cool the intercooler. Street cars generally have a heat exchanger to dump the heat back into the air as you drive. The down falls of air to water are the extra weight, and yes, if the pump fails it can be bad. Air to air is less maintenance and risk of engine damage, but I believe air to water will out perform air to air in terms of temperature drop and pressure drop across the core leading to more power.



I had some questions but don't know enough either way to say anything for sure. I got the meth/water injection as a counter balance for the possible weakness and for the bump in power. Given the purpose of the car it should be ok don't you think?
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