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True mid-engine by Bridgetown
Started on: 01-06-2012 02:11 PM
Replies: 68 (8884 views)
Last post by: motoracer838 on 10-14-2014 07:51 PM
Bridgetown
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Report this Post01-06-2012 02:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BridgetownSend a Private Message to BridgetownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

reading some old archived topics got my gears turning. I really like the idea of a longitudinal mid-engine v6 setup in a Fiero without lengthening the wheelbase. Reading this old thread.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...110502-2-086394.html

Looking into transaxle options. The Audi option looks like one of the best, however I'm sure it will be pricey. A cheaper option might be the Subaru WRX as it is slightly shorter from bellhousing face to axle center then the Porsche.

Subaru 5/6 speed


Porsche 5/6 speed


Audi 7 speed


I am looking for some definitive info now on engine lengths for the most common Fiero swaps eg. 3800, 3.4DOHC, 3400, N*, LS etc.

[This message has been edited by Bridgetown (edited 01-06-2012).]

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Xyster
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Report this Post01-06-2012 02:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for XysterSend a Private Message to XysterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I have been doing some research into this very topic. From what I found (regarding the Subie trans) is the WRX gives up the ghost at ~300hp, but the STi is happy with much more. One "race team" claims they ran 800hp through the STi 6 speed during an endurance race amd it died after something like 6 hours. I am personally leaning towards a Audi box that has been treated.

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Report this Post01-07-2012 12:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for eph_kayClick Here to Email eph_kaySend a Private Message to eph_kayEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I love the idea of the subaru transmission, and the 6 speed is a great setup, sadly the 6 speed uses the shaft to power a pump off the middle differential and you have to replace the drive gear system when you remove the rear out put, and the set up is about $1000 and is made in australia. Where as the 5 speeds you weld the inner and outer shafts of the lower gears of the transmission and it is good to go, or guy a inner and outer splined "spool" of sorts for like $100 and bolt it on. If you can keep your power limited to the 300hp range it should treat you great.

Longitudinal is great, but I just don't really like adapters, unless they have to happen, so I would go with the audi transmission, and an audi v6 and try and squeeze it in there

Chris

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Report this Post01-07-2012 08:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Bridgetown:

I am looking for some definitive info now on engine lengths for the most common Fiero swaps eg. 3800, 3.4DOHC, 3400, N*, LS etc.



The '97 era Northstars measure 21.25" from bellhousing mount to the front machined surface of the engine block, 22.5" to the front face of the crank pulley, and 23.25" to the very front edge of the pulley bolts on the stock drive system.

(Edit to refine measurements)

[This message has been edited by Bloozberry (edited 01-08-2012).]

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Bridgetown
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Report this Post01-07-2012 12:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BridgetownSend a Private Message to BridgetownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

According to this thread. The LS4 is 22.5" including pulleys. Keep it coming guys, good stuff so far.
http://m.modmotortech.com/f...thread.php?t=1281308

[This message has been edited by Bridgetown (edited 01-07-2012).]

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Bridgetown
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Report this Post01-07-2012 12:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BridgetownSend a Private Message to BridgetownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I also measured on my car, with my fixed position sparcos, all the way back on the tracks I have 5" from the firewall. According to the above thread, there is 21.5" from axel center to firewall. Minus the subaru dimension of 6.5" and say, overestamating, 1" for an adapter. That leaves 14" moving the firewall forward 5" gives us 19" for engine. There may be more room to move the firewall forward nearest the center, between the seats if needed. This is looking quite possible.
Anyone have dimensions for the 3800sc?

[This message has been edited by Bridgetown (edited 01-07-2012).]

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Bridgetown
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Report this Post01-07-2012 01:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BridgetownSend a Private Message to BridgetownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Just measured my 3400 it is 20" including accessories.

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Report this Post01-07-2012 01:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BridgetownSend a Private Message to BridgetownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

According to this, ecotec is 26.2" long. Weird, I thought it would be shorter?
http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=604219

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Bridgetown
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Report this Post01-07-2012 01:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BridgetownSend a Private Message to BridgetownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Found it!
http://www.pirate4x4.com/fo...ex.php/t-841159.html
21"

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Report this Post01-07-2012 02:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IMSA GTClick Here to Email IMSA GTSend a Private Message to IMSA GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Talk to Chris Hodson on here. Here is a pic of his engine bay. He was goofing around with the headers

And his thread:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/111704.html

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Report this Post01-07-2012 02:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BridgetownSend a Private Message to BridgetownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Looks like he is using the th425 tornado transmission. I knew this setup was possible within the stock wheelbase, however, I am definately wanting to go manual. Using the subaru trans it may even be possible to keep some of the trunk, although, it would end up being much shallower.

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steve308
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Report this Post01-07-2012 05:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for steve308Send a Private Message to steve308Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Replica/Kit Makes Manta

Manta Mirage Kelmark V8 Corvair Transaxle Package

On e- bay ---check it out

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Bridgetown
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Report this Post01-08-2012 01:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BridgetownSend a Private Message to BridgetownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Corvair powerglide is an auto. Trying to find an engine and manual trans option that will fit within the stock wheelbase. Lighter and newer the better. Interesting though I stumbled into the fact that the tempest used the corvair transaxle in the rear, like the Corvette. Never knew that.

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Report this Post01-08-2012 01:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BridgetownSend a Private Message to BridgetownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Read that the ej20 boxer 4 cyl. From the wrx is only 16" long. That would fit within the stock wheelbase easily, plus there would be no need for an adapter. Anyone on here swapped in a subaru engine? Should be lots of aftermarket. Anyone know if 300hp is easy to achieve from the wrx engines.

[This message has been edited by Bridgetown (edited 01-11-2012).]

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Rick Morehouse
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Report this Post01-08-2012 02:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rick MorehouseClick Here to Email Rick MorehouseSend a Private Message to Rick MorehouseEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

A couple notes; the tempest used the Corvair trannies, but a different differential was designed & fit the back of the trannies. I have a 62
Tempest 4 spd T/A,all cast iron-quite heavy. Happen to have a 215 V-8 hooked to it,overall-the total length is 46"! Would have to stretch a fiero some 20".

And seem like I just read the 2012 WRX comes w/300hp, now maybe they are turbocharged-I just don't keep up w/them. I saw the article in current Kit car builder, I think. But good luck anyways. Rick

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post01-08-2012 03:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Others have done longitudinal swaps and they can be made to fit, but the transverse swap is a much easier solution and you get to keep the trunk. Also a Fiero is true mid engine as it is located between the front and rear axles. I doubt if moving the engine forward in a longitudinal application another 6" or so is going to buy you much.If you look at the install shown in this post it appears that the engine isn't moved at all.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
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Report this Post01-08-2012 03:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KhwClick Here to Email KhwSend a Private Message to KhwEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:

I doubt if moving the engine forward in a longitudinal application another 6" or so is going to buy you much.If you look at the install shown in this post it appears that the engine isn't moved at all.



Yes, but doesn't the tornado tranmission actually shift the axle forward rather then rearward?



O.P.: It can be mounted longitudally without a stretch because of where the axles connect to the trans. The transmissions your showing the axles would mount rearward and without a stretch, you would need to relocate the firewall inward to the cabin, reduceing space inside. I hope your not very tall, and don't plan on ever having anyone very tall in your Fiero.

[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 01-08-2012).]

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Report this Post01-08-2012 03:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KhwClick Here to Email KhwSend a Private Message to KhwEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Bridgetown:




The dimension in red has to be off. 97mm (it looks like) is 8-13/16" while the 210mm measures in at only 8-1/4"?

[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 01-08-2012).]

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Bridgetown
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Report this Post01-08-2012 04:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BridgetownSend a Private Message to BridgetownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:

Others have done longitudinal swaps and they can be made to fit, but the transverse swap is a much easier solution and you get to keep the trunk. Also a Fiero is true mid engine as it is located between the front and rear axles. I doubt if moving the engine forward in a longitudinal application another 6" or so is going to buy you much.If you look at the install shown in this post it appears that the engine isn't moved at all.



There must be some advantage. Most of the big boys use that layout. Besides there are more gains in other ways. Stronger transmissions, better aftermarket support, etc. Also there is the originality, and imo longitudinal looks better.

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Report this Post01-08-2012 04:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BridgetownSend a Private Message to BridgetownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Khw:


The dimension in red has to be off. 97mm (it looks like) is 8-13/16" while the 210mm measures in at only 8-1/4"?



Not too concerned with th back, as long as the axle to bellhousing is correct.

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Report this Post01-08-2012 04:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BridgetownSend a Private Message to BridgetownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Khw:


Yes, but doesn't the tornado tranmission actually shift the axle forward rather then rearward?



O.P.: It can be mounted longitudally without a stretch because of where the axles connect to the trans. The transmissions your showing the axles would mount rearward and without a stretch, you would need to relocate the firewall inward to the cabin, reduceing space inside. I hope your not very tall, and don't plan on ever having anyone very tall in your Fiero.


Above I measured that you can gain 5" of space without losing any seat travel. My seats do not recline however.

[This message has been edited by Bridgetown (edited 01-08-2012).]

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steve308
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Report this Post01-08-2012 08:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for steve308Send a Private Message to steve308Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Corvair / Kelmark listed on e-bay is a 4 speed / Also way to many years ago a Kit Car manufacture in TX had a Mid engine unit that appeared to be very compact. It used a belt driven trans that allowed a longitude mount v8 to fit in a very limited space. The trans extended to the rear or the vehicle where the drive pulleys were and then belts transfer the power forward back to the axles. I think the car was called the ZARA and we have a forum member who worked at the factory. I'll keep digging and if I find it -- it may be an interesting read.

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Report this Post01-08-2012 09:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rick MorehouseClick Here to Email Rick MorehouseSend a Private Message to Rick MorehouseEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Steve308; Yep-you're right on that belt driven setup. Got a copy of it some place. Seems like the guy was gonna patent it also. Never did see any more of it in any car rags.

On the Toronado T/As, they had 455 Cubic inch motors & gobs of torque. The motor center line,side to side, was nearly centered over the axles,excellent traction. The passenger side axle went thru the oil pan to that sides hub. Some yrs back, a gentleman from Canada put a Pontiac 455 & same T/a in a fiero w/o a stretch--no trunk of course, but that set up would pull the front wheels off the ground on a good launch.

Wonder how GM will set up the mid-engine vette, with the T/A a fore-aft set up as it is now?? We'll see a whole new car, I'm sure.

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Report this Post01-08-2012 10:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BridgetownSend a Private Message to BridgetownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I do remember seeing some pics of that belt drive setup before now that you mention it. I like my cars to handle well. I'm not really looking to do the whole straightliner thing.

[This message has been edited by Bridgetown (edited 01-08-2012).]

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joshh44
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Report this Post01-09-2012 12:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for joshh44Send a Private Message to joshh44Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

i know this might be more expensive then the transmissions posted above. but what about using the Ford GT transmission?
i was looking up specs about the car. then i remembered about this thread and i just wanted to see the specs on the transmission they used. I dont know what the price is for one of them but they seem pretty tough at 600 tq. rating

http://www.sctsportscars.co...GT_TRANSAXLE_780.jpg

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Report this Post01-09-2012 01:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BridgetownSend a Private Message to BridgetownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

That looks sweet, I don't want to know the price either.200# is a bit portly as well. I have read the subaru 5 spd is around 130#. It's only good to about 300hp, but I don't think you would need more then that if the car is kept to about 2500# total.

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Report this Post01-09-2012 02:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BridgetownSend a Private Message to BridgetownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by steve308:

Corvair / Kelmark listed on e-bay is a 4 speed / Also way to many years ago a Kit Car manufacture in TX had a Mid engine unit that appeared to be very compact. It used a belt driven trans that allowed a longitude mount v8 to fit in a very limited space. The trans extended to the rear or the vehicle where the drive pulleys were and then belts transfer the power forward back to the axles. I think the car was called the ZARA and we have a forum member who worked at the factory. I'll keep digging and if I find it -- it may be an interesting read.


was this the setup you were thinking of? supposed to be good to 1000hp apparently, and can place the axle line wherever you like it.

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Report this Post01-09-2012 02:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BridgetownSend a Private Message to BridgetownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

For 15k you could have one of these baby's! 7 speed good for 800 ft-lbs. transverse gearbox, longitudinal engine. Cool.

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Report this Post01-09-2012 03:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BridgetownSend a Private Message to BridgetownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

12k for this 6 speed from Quaife. 85mm from mounting face to shaft centterline. That's what we need.

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Report this Post01-09-2012 06:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for R RunnerClick Here to visit R Runner's HomePageClick Here to Email R RunnerSend a Private Message to R RunnerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Bridgetown:

For 15k you could have one of these baby's! 7 speed good for 800 ft-lbs. transverse gearbox, longitudinal engine. Cool.



What car? Manufacturer? Model number?

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Report this Post01-09-2012 06:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for steve308Send a Private Message to steve308Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

was this the setup you were thinking of? supposed to be good to 1000hp apparently, and can place the axle line wherever you like it.

That's the one!!!!!

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Report this Post01-09-2012 07:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AustralianClick Here to visit Australian's HomePageClick Here to Email AustralianSend a Private Message to AustralianEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by R Runner:


What car? Manufacturer? Model number?


http://www.xtrac.com/

http://www.xtrac.com/pdfs/1...ROMESH%20GEARBOX.pdf

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motoracer838
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Report this Post01-09-2012 12:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for motoracer838Click Here to Email motoracer838Send a Private Message to motoracer838Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by steve308:

Corvair / Kelmark listed on e-bay is a 4 speed / Also way to many years ago a Kit Car manufacture in TX had a Mid engine unit that appeared to be very compact. It used a belt driven trans that allowed a longitude mount v8 to fit in a very limited space. The trans extended to the rear or the vehicle where the drive pulleys were and then belts transfer the power forward back to the axles. I think the car was called the ZARA and we have a forum member who worked at the factory. I'll keep digging and if I find it -- it may be an interesting read.


The company was Exotic dream machines out of Rancho Cordova Ca. I built the drivetrain and chassis.




We built the system to see if we could come up with a way to build a mid engine drivetrain w/out having to use the avalible transaxles of the day, in the end it cost more and would not handle the bbc we were using for testing. under hard accel the belts would "ratchet", you could feel it jumping teeth. under lower hp ratings it would work, but what's the point.

Cheers Beers n Gearz. Joe

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motoracer838
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Report this Post01-09-2012 12:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for motoracer838Click Here to Email motoracer838Send a Private Message to motoracer838Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Bridgetown:


was this the setup you were thinking of? supposed to be good to 1000hp apparently, and can place the axle line wherever you like it.


We did it first.

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motoracer838
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Report this Post01-09-2012 12:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for motoracer838Click Here to Email motoracer838Send a Private Message to motoracer838Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Bridgetown:

I do remember seeing some pics of that belt drive setup before now that you mention it. I like my cars to handle well. I'm not really looking to do the whole straightliner thing.



The Zara project never got off the ground, we built the cutaway car that got some press and was displayed at Sema '91. we did start building a prototype, it was sold off as a partial roller and to my knowledge has never been seen again.

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Report this Post01-09-2012 12:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BridgetownSend a Private Message to BridgetownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Wow! Cool stuff. You just never know who your going to run into on here. Are you still building chassis or cars for anyone?

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motoracer838
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Report this Post01-09-2012 12:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for motoracer838Click Here to Email motoracer838Send a Private Message to motoracer838Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Bridgetown:

Wow! Cool stuff. You just never know who your going to run into on here. Are you still building chassis or cars for anyone?


My latest.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/086876.html

Joe

[This message has been edited by motoracer838 (edited 01-09-2012).]

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Report this Post01-09-2012 12:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BridgetownSend a Private Message to BridgetownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by R Runner:


What car? Manufacturer? Model number?


http://www.evo.co.uk/front_...ry.php?o=0&id=421096

Comes free with Pagani's new jalopy.

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Mickey_Moose
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Report this Post01-09-2012 03:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Mickey_MooseClick Here to visit Mickey_Moose's HomePageClick Here to Email Mickey_MooseSend a Private Message to Mickey_MooseEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

You could try going with a Hewland gearbox and you can even select your custom gear ratios - but then getting into the pricy territory again.

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Report this Post01-09-2012 06:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for steve308Send a Private Message to steve308Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Bridgetown ----- When that first came out my concern was one belt failing and it having the same effect as an single out board failure on a high power twin outboard powerboat. It would be interesting to see how the new kevlar belt technology would work today.

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