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The Getrag F23 Tutorial - By Emc209i by L67
Started on: 10-19-2011 04:38 AM
Replies: 227 (47081 views)
Last post by: ericjon262 on 03-07-2023 10:00 AM
Monstertone
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Report this Post04-24-2020 01:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MonstertoneSend a Private Message to MonstertoneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Pretty sure the 2.2 pushrod transmission has a 3.94 FD.

The shafts are retained in the outer case half by bearings which are pressed in place. The bearings at the outer end handle the axial loads on the shafts from the helix angle of the gear teeth.

The pinion of the ring & pinion is integral on the output shaft. That means you have to remove the output shaft from the transmission in order to swap the FD from one outer case to another. You can't remove just the output shaft, though. The input cluster and output cluster have to come out together.

IOW, swapping cases on the same gear clusters is a whole lot more work than swapping the bellhousings on two different transmissions.


394:1 FDR on the Cavi. My bad. All the more reason to get rid of that!

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears the differential assy mounts into the bell housing. Meaning if you simply swap bell housings, you lose that tall FDR, which is why you bought the Cobalt tranny in the first place! In that video, it appears once the case is split, it's a simple matter of removing the shift forks, then lifting each of the three shaft clusters out. It's the differential that's more involved. And as Will said, the pinion being integral with the output shaft & the output & input clusters work together as a pair. Which means swapping the FDR involves not only swapping the bell housing, the ring gear assy, & output cluster, but the input cluster as well. As long as you're doing that, why not swap the intermediate cluster too? Am I missing something? Maybe I need to watch that video again.

Granted, it is a bit more work. However, none of mounts I've seen for the metric bell housing/Cobalt tranny really appeal to me. The Cavi's rear case, on the other hand, has those feet.

[This message has been edited by Monstertone (edited 04-24-2020).]

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Report this Post04-24-2020 04:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Monstertone:

Now correct me


No problem! Just watch the video starting at 7:55

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 04-24-2020).]

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Report this Post04-25-2020 12:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MonstertoneSend a Private Message to MonstertoneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


No problem! Just watch the video starting at 7:55



Thanks Will. Since I don't have that handy little fixture, I'm thinking remove the back up switch & those two shaft retainers before removing the bell housing. Hopefully, that will allow me to utilize the case for the same function as that fixture, albeit everything will be upside down. Maybe that "kit" is available on loan from Mopar, or some other parts store. Or is that a pipe dream? How has everyone else gotten by sans that kit? Barring the bearings & seals look good enough they won't need replacing, it should not be all that difficult.
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Report this Post04-25-2020 03:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
eBay the tool number.

Also, the bellhousing lifts off the diff, which then lifts out of the other case half.
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Report this Post05-06-2020 03:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MonstertoneSend a Private Message to MonstertoneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Back up & punt, again.

I now have both 2000 Cavalier and 2010 Cobalt transaxles on the bench, cap & oil guides removed, the tool kit & assy fixture arriving Monday. At this point, it seems rather than going to all the trouble of swapping all three shafts and the differential (FDR) in each trans, as I had previously planned, simply swapping the bell housings will be the way to go.

After going back & forth between WCF & Thelinsells, I bit the the bullet & ordered WCF mounting brackets. To their credit, the WCF brackets arrived in less than two weeks. They appear to be very well made. However, they only fit the Cavalier transaxle. So much for a simple bell housing swap. Grrrr. I am now faced with a complete swap of all internals, save the bearing races, in both transaxles, or returning the WCF mounts & using someone else's mounts. And the more I think about it, running 10 year old bearings on 20 year old races does not exactly sound like a smart thing to do.

I would prefer to keep the entire Cobalt transaxle, save the bellhousing. True, the metric bellhousing brings with it 20 year old bearing races on the front end. But, that's only 50% rather than 100% of the races. What are my options regarding mounts for a 3800/Cobalier Frankentranny? Can anyone post pics of Roger Thelin, or anyone else's mounts on such an animal?

[This message has been edited by Monstertone (edited 05-06-2020).]

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Report this Post05-07-2020 07:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cam-a-lotSend a Private Message to cam-a-lotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Monstertone:

Back up & punt, again.

I now have both 2000 Cavalier and 2010 Cobalt transaxles on the bench, cap & oil guides removed, the tool kit & assy fixture arriving Monday. At this point, it seems rather than going to all the trouble of swapping all three shafts and the differential (FDR) in each trans, as I had previously planned, simply swapping the bell housings will be the way to go.

After going back & forth between WCF & Thelinsells, I bit the the bullet & ordered WCF mounting brackets. To their credit, the WCF brackets arrived in less than two weeks. They appear to be very well made. However, they only fit the Cavalier transaxle. So much for a simple bell housing swap. Grrrr. I am now faced with a complete swap of all internals, save the bearing races, in both transaxles, or returning the WCF mounts & using someone else's mounts. And the more I think about it, running 10 year old bearings on 20 year old races does not exactly sound like a smart thing to do.

I would prefer to keep the entire Cobalt transaxle, save the bellhousing. True, the metric bellhousing brings with it 20 year old bearing races on the front end. But, that's only 50% rather than 100% of the races. What are my options regarding mounts for a 3800/Cobalier Frankentranny? Can anyone post pics of Roger Thelin, or anyone else's mounts on such an animal?



Agreed- pictures would be great ! I too am planning this swap and do not want the 3.94 FD of the Cavalier transmission. Thanks to anyone jumping in with photos who is already in the middle of doing this, or has already done it.

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Report this Post05-15-2020 05:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MonstertoneSend a Private Message to MonstertoneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I take issue with that video showing thread locker being applied to every single bolt on that transaxle. For instance the speed sensor retaining thingy, the rear cover plate, the drain plug? That is ridiculous. How many broken tools or buggered the heads can be attributed to this nonsense? Certainly those parts not under stress will remain tight, if torqued to spec, as should any part, if properly designed.

It takes heat to break some of these threads loose. A lot of heat!
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Report this Post05-15-2020 06:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Monstertone:

I take issue with that video showing thread locker being applied to every single bolt on that transaxle. For instance the speed sensor retaining thingy, the rear cover plate, the drain plug? That is ridiculous. How many broken tools or buggered the heads can be attributed to this nonsense? Certainly those parts not under stress will remain tight, if torqued to spec, as should any part, if properly designed.

It takes heat to break some of these threads loose. A lot of heat!


Threadlocker is a belt-and-suspenders approach to reducing the possibility of things going wrong, in the hopes of reducing warranty claims, and as an insurance against possible lawsuits.

Most folks aren't overly concerned with the opinions of Saturday mechanics who may wish to service these things later.
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Report this Post06-30-2020 01:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MonstertoneSend a Private Message to MonstertoneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
After serious consideration, I followed Will's advice & took the easy way out. That is, swapping bell housings only. After breaking two HF T-50 sockets, (grrr) someone clued me in on MAP gas extreme heat to break loose Locktite red. (Grrr again) Easy when you know how but tough learning experience non the less.
Due to the fact they rely on a complete Cavalier case, this rules out WCF mounts. No love lost there. Don't ask how I know. lol But I'm not out of the woods yet. One would like to think a metric bell housing is a metric bell housing. As such at least the mounting points for the tranny would be similar to, if not the same as the M282. But no, the powers that be couldn't have that. What have others done for mounts on a setup such as this? All links, pics, appreciated. Thank you all.

[This message has been edited by Monstertone (edited 07-31-2020).]

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Report this Post07-01-2020 10:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
As discussed in this thread, Thelin's rear bracket should work.
ONE bolt of Thelin's front bracket lines up on the Ecotec case, so you can probably use that bracket as a starting point.
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Report this Post07-19-2020 01:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MonstertoneSend a Private Message to MonstertoneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Transaxle is a 2010 Cobalt (ecotec) gears & rear case with a 2002 Cavalier bell housing. Ended up going with Roger Thelin's mounts. Had to drill & tap two holes mentioned earlier, Not difficult at all if you have the proper tools. ie There are cutting taps & dies, & cleanup taps & dies. (HF) The former cuts thru aluminum like butter.

Bolting up the trans to the engine is another story. I'm using a cut down Camaro flywheel from FieroRog & a Ram 54007 9.75 Ø clutch from the Fiero Store. (figured I could use all the surface area I could get) Everything seemed to be going well tightening up the trans to the block, until the last .060 or so. At which point everything binds up & am no longer able to turn the crankshaft, even with a 24" breaker bar! Not seeing any scratch marks inside the bell housing, or on the pressure plate. The disk is facing the right direction. Did I miss something along the way? Do I need a spacer between the engine & trans? Or does the input shaft or fly wheel need to be modified?
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Report this Post07-19-2020 03:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Removed my post because FieroGuru posted something that makes way more sense and is likely the cause of the issue.

[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 07-19-2020).]

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Report this Post07-19-2020 11:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cam-a-lotSend a Private Message to cam-a-lotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Please post pictures of your progress. This would be very helpul, showing the mounts, etc
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Report this Post07-19-2020 01:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Monstertone:

Transaxle is a 2010 Cobalt (ecotec) gears & rear case with a 2002 Cavalier bell housing. Ended up going with Roger Thelin's mounts. Had to drill & tap two holes mentioned earlier, Not difficult at all if you have the proper tools. ie There are cutting taps & dies, & cleanup taps & dies. (HF) The former cuts thru aluminum like butter.

Bolting up the trans to the engine is another story. I'm using a cut down Camaro flywheel from FieroRog & a Ram 54007 9.75 Ø clutch from the Fiero Store. (figured I could use all the surface area I could get) Everything seemed to be going well tightening up the trans to the block, until the last .060 or so. At which point everything binds up & am no longer able to turn the crankshaft, even with a 24" breaker bar! Not seeing any scratch marks inside the bell housing, or on the pressure plate. The disk is facing the right direction. Did I miss something along the way? Do I need a spacer between the engine & trans? Or does the input shaft or fly wheel need to be modified?


The F23 bellhousing is tighter in several areas than the Fiero 282 - so many of the custom or upgraded flywheels and clutches for the 282 end up interfere with a portion of the case around the differential. Here is a picture of the issue.
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Report this Post07-19-2020 02:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MonstertoneSend a Private Message to MonstertoneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have no scratches like that. Could be I have not made enough turns to generate them. However, I would think it would not take much to at least make some visible marks in aluminum, once you know where to look.
Perhaps I should try it with the standard Fiero clutch first?

Edit: I had neglected to take into consideration the slight difference in distance between the input & output shafts of the M282 vs F23. I don't remember the exact numbers but, the F23 is somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 mm shorter. This would indeed account for the possibility of clearance issues, especially with the clutch I ordered.

[This message has been edited by Monstertone (edited 07-20-2020).]

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Report this Post07-19-2020 03:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I keep on reading about this particular interference issue, along with the TOB spacer requirement.
I guess I have two questions...

1. Does the face of the Cavalier flywheel sit the same distance from the face of the block (and, by extension, the bellhousing flange) as the Fiero /282 flywheel does from the Fiero or 3800 block?
2. Does anyone build a "maximum effort" Cavalier (yeah, I know, mutually exclusive) clutch, that would support "our" application(s)?

Sorry if this is old ground. I've never seen those asked.
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Report this Post07-19-2020 03:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:

I keep on reading about this particular interference issue, along with the TOB spacer requirement.
I guess I have two questions...

1. Does the face of the Cavalier flywheel sit the same distance from the face of the block (and, by extension, the bellhousing flange) as the Fiero /282 flywheel does from the Fiero or 3800 block?
2. Does anyone build a "maximum effort" Cavalier (yeah, I know, mutually exclusive) clutch, that would support "our" application(s)?

Sorry if this is old ground. I've never seen those asked.


Just about all the FWD engines have the crankshaft basically flush with the bellhousing, but there can be 0.030 +/- between different engine families.
Part of the problem is the way people reference custom flywheels. They say how thick is, when the true critical dimension is protrusion from the bellhousing for the specific application (because like I said, flush crankshaft flanges can be +/- 0.030" from each other and oftentimes 0.030" is the different between fitting or interfering. Stock Fiero 2.8 has the face of the flywheel 0.830" from the bellhousing face.

The F23 was designed for small, low power motors and came with a less than 9 1/8" (stock Fiero 2.8 size) clutch. If you run the stock F23 application clutch and pressure place, 90% of all the issues with HTOB over extension and interference go away, but I have only seen a few go this path (with success), the rest mix and match parts from the Fiero and other applications and run into fitment issues.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 07-19-2020).]

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Report this Post07-19-2020 04:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
...
The F23 was designed for small, low power motors and came with a less than 9 1/8" (stock Fiero 2.8 size) clutch. If you run the stock F23 application clutch and pressure place, 90% of all the issues with HTOB over extension and interference go away, but I have only seen a few go this path (with success), the rest mix and match parts from the Fiero and other applications and run into fitment issues.



Perfect. Thanks for that.
I've seen a few clutches listed for the Cavalier, at 9 1/8", and (strangely) some at 8.5".
With that said, the Fiero Ram clutch is described as anywhere between 9 3/8" and 9/5/8". (Whatever it is, it seems to hold the torque from my 4.9 just fine.)
That kind of gives me some hope that there is something heavy duty, but streetable, available for the Cavalier, that won't require the reinvention of the wheel.
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Report this Post07-31-2020 01:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MonstertoneSend a Private Message to MonstertoneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Justinbart:

I had to grind down the input shaft for the 3800. Might not have to on the 2.8. I don't know. See my sig.


None of the earlier pics on this thread are visible anymore.
Could you be more specific about grinding the input shaft? What diameter, how far back? And exactly how did you do it? Remove the shaft & turn it on a lathe, or what? The scant info I have been able to find is that #1 there is no pilot bushing, #2 the shaft does extend into the crankshaft on some applications, but when it does there is ample clearance so it's not really a pilot.
This is NOT a minor operation! If everyone is having to modify the input shaft, how come hardly anyone is talking about it?

[This message has been edited by Monstertone (edited 07-31-2020).]

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Report this Post07-31-2020 02:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The input shaft is already self-supported, so you just need to prevent contact between the input shaft and crankshaft.

As such, if you need to modify the input shaft, the requirements are pretty loose.
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Report this Post07-31-2020 04:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MonstertoneSend a Private Message to MonstertoneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Will simply grinding it back flat excepting a lead on the splines be OK then?
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Report this Post07-31-2020 04:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you have a clearance problem, then yes, that would work.

However, if the end of the shaft was centre-drilled, then you would be cutting that off.

If you ever wish to put the shaft between centers on a lathe, well then you would be SOL.
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Report this Post08-01-2020 03:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The Ecotec bellhousing is 3/8" deeper than the "metric" bellhousing. As a result, the Ecotec input shaft is 3/8" longer than the input shaft used with the "metric" bellhousing. When you install the metric bellhousing on the Ecotec XFE transmission, the input shaft then sticks out 3/8" further than the input shaft in the metric transmission.

I think JustinBart just ground down the OD of the interfering snout on the shaft rather than cutting it off completely.
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Report this Post08-07-2020 10:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JncomuttSend a Private Message to JncomuttEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Those issues were covered here by Justin:

//www.fiero.nl/forum/F...2/HTML/121743-2.html
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Report this Post12-29-2020 01:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
FWIW, the VSS reluctor on a F23 has 29 teeth(at least, the one I took apart does), pulse per mile can then be calculated by multiplying tooth count (29) times revolutions per mile of your tire size, in my case, 780.

780 rev/mile X 29 pulses/rev=22,620 pulses per mile. this should give a decent starting point for speedometer calibration.

Rev/mile for your tire size can be found here:

https://tiresize.com/tiresizes/285-35R18.htm

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Report this Post07-20-2021 12:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Matthew_FieroSend a Private Message to Matthew_FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Are there still basket and cable support for the F23?

I'm going to start collecting parts for either the F40 or F23. Whichever transmission(s) I find first.

Thank you,
Matthew
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Report this Post07-20-2021 01:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
To my knowledge, yes. A company called California Push-n-pull (or something akin to that) makes cables, and the non-stock one needed (right length with the appropriate connectors on it) is in their catalog thanks to the efforts of Emc209i. If you call them up and let them know you need shift cables for an F23 going into a Fiero, they should know what you're talking about. Back when I got mine, I think it was 110 dollars for the two cables.
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Report this Post03-07-2023 10:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I recently put an F23 in a POS Grand AM (The Gran Damn) and since install, I had noticed the trans made lots of undesirable noises, and I had a noise that I had thought was coming from the power steering. today, I dumped the ATF out of the trans and refilled it with Synchromesh, to the 2.6 quarts recommended by the TSB, and the trans is now WAY quieter, and the noise I had thought was coming from the power steering, almost completely went away, it wasn't impossible to induce the noise, but it took way more aggressive driving than it did before.

At this point, I recommend filling F23's with Synchromesh and not ATF, that being said, I only have a couple of miles on the car with it, so I have no long term data, and any long term data might not be valid, because the transmission wasn't rebuilt, and could have some preexisting problems, so a failure at this point doesn't mean it's the Synchromesh either.

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