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The Getrag F23 Tutorial - By Emc209i by L67
Started on: 10-19-2011 04:38 AM
Replies: 209 (38657 views)
Last post by: Will on 07-01-2020 10:19 AM
Monstertone
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Report this Post04-24-2020 01:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MonstertoneClick Here to Email MonstertoneSend a Private Message to MonstertoneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Pretty sure the 2.2 pushrod transmission has a 3.94 FD.

The shafts are retained in the outer case half by bearings which are pressed in place. The bearings at the outer end handle the axial loads on the shafts from the helix angle of the gear teeth.

The pinion of the ring & pinion is integral on the output shaft. That means you have to remove the output shaft from the transmission in order to swap the FD from one outer case to another. You can't remove just the output shaft, though. The input cluster and output cluster have to come out together.

IOW, swapping cases on the same gear clusters is a whole lot more work than swapping the bellhousings on two different transmissions.


394:1 FDR on the Cavi. My bad. All the more reason to get rid of that!

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears the differential assy mounts into the bell housing. Meaning if you simply swap bell housings, you lose that tall FDR, which is why you bought the Cobalt tranny in the first place! In that video, it appears once the case is split, it's a simple matter of removing the shift forks, then lifting each of the three shaft clusters out. It's the differential that's more involved. And as Will said, the pinion being integral with the output shaft & the output & input clusters work together as a pair. Which means swapping the FDR involves not only swapping the bell housing, the ring gear assy, & output cluster, but the input cluster as well. As long as you're doing that, why not swap the intermediate cluster too? Am I missing something? Maybe I need to watch that video again.

Granted, it is a bit more work. However, none of mounts I've seen for the metric bell housing/Cobalt tranny really appeal to me. The Cavi's rear case, on the other hand, has those feet.

[This message has been edited by Monstertone (edited 04-24-2020).]

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Will
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Report this Post04-24-2020 04:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Monstertone:

Now correct me


No problem! Just watch the video starting at 7:55

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 04-24-2020).]

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Report this Post04-25-2020 12:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MonstertoneClick Here to Email MonstertoneSend a Private Message to MonstertoneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


No problem! Just watch the video starting at 7:55



Thanks Will. Since I don't have that handy little fixture, I'm thinking remove the back up switch & those two shaft retainers before removing the bell housing. Hopefully, that will allow me to utilize the case for the same function as that fixture, albeit everything will be upside down. Maybe that "kit" is available on loan from Mopar, or some other parts store. Or is that a pipe dream? How has everyone else gotten by sans that kit? Barring the bearings & seals look good enough they won't need replacing, it should not be all that difficult.
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Report this Post04-25-2020 03:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
eBay the tool number.

Also, the bellhousing lifts off the diff, which then lifts out of the other case half.
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Monstertone
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Report this Post05-06-2020 03:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MonstertoneClick Here to Email MonstertoneSend a Private Message to MonstertoneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Back up & punt, again.

I now have both 2000 Cavalier and 2010 Cobalt transaxles on the bench, cap & oil guides removed, the tool kit & assy fixture arriving Monday. At this point, it seems rather than going to all the trouble of swapping all three shafts and the differential (FDR) in each trans, as I had previously planned, simply swapping the bell housings will be the way to go.

After going back & forth between WCF & Thelinsells, I bit the the bullet & ordered WCF mounting brackets. To their credit, the WCF brackets arrived in less than two weeks. They appear to be very well made. However, they only fit the Cavalier transaxle. So much for a simple bell housing swap. Grrrr. I am now faced with a complete swap of all internals, save the bearing races, in both transaxles, or returning the WCF mounts & using someone else's mounts. And the more I think about it, running 10 year old bearings on 20 year old races does not exactly sound like a smart thing to do.

I would prefer to keep the entire Cobalt transaxle, save the bellhousing. True, the metric bellhousing brings with it 20 year old bearing races on the front end. But, that's only 50% rather than 100% of the races. What are my options regarding mounts for a 3800/Cobalier Frankentranny? Can anyone post pics of Roger Thelin, or anyone else's mounts on such an animal?

[This message has been edited by Monstertone (edited 05-06-2020).]

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cam-a-lot
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Report this Post05-07-2020 07:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cam-a-lotSend a Private Message to cam-a-lotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Monstertone:

Back up & punt, again.

I now have both 2000 Cavalier and 2010 Cobalt transaxles on the bench, cap & oil guides removed, the tool kit & assy fixture arriving Monday. At this point, it seems rather than going to all the trouble of swapping all three shafts and the differential (FDR) in each trans, as I had previously planned, simply swapping the bell housings will be the way to go.

After going back & forth between WCF & Thelinsells, I bit the the bullet & ordered WCF mounting brackets. To their credit, the WCF brackets arrived in less than two weeks. They appear to be very well made. However, they only fit the Cavalier transaxle. So much for a simple bell housing swap. Grrrr. I am now faced with a complete swap of all internals, save the bearing races, in both transaxles, or returning the WCF mounts & using someone else's mounts. And the more I think about it, running 10 year old bearings on 20 year old races does not exactly sound like a smart thing to do.

I would prefer to keep the entire Cobalt transaxle, save the bellhousing. True, the metric bellhousing brings with it 20 year old bearing races on the front end. But, that's only 50% rather than 100% of the races. What are my options regarding mounts for a 3800/Cobalier Frankentranny? Can anyone post pics of Roger Thelin, or anyone else's mounts on such an animal?



Agreed- pictures would be great ! I too am planning this swap and do not want the 3.94 FD of the Cavalier transmission. Thanks to anyone jumping in with photos who is already in the middle of doing this, or has already done it.

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Report this Post05-15-2020 05:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MonstertoneClick Here to Email MonstertoneSend a Private Message to MonstertoneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I take issue with that video showing thread locker being applied to every single bolt on that transaxle. For instance the speed sensor retaining thingy, the rear cover plate, the drain plug? That is ridiculous. How many broken tools or buggered the heads can be attributed to this nonsense? Certainly those parts not under stress will remain tight, if torqued to spec, as should any part, if properly designed.

It takes heat to break some of these threads loose. A lot of heat!
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Report this Post05-15-2020 06:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Monstertone:

I take issue with that video showing thread locker being applied to every single bolt on that transaxle. For instance the speed sensor retaining thingy, the rear cover plate, the drain plug? That is ridiculous. How many broken tools or buggered the heads can be attributed to this nonsense? Certainly those parts not under stress will remain tight, if torqued to spec, as should any part, if properly designed.

It takes heat to break some of these threads loose. A lot of heat!


Threadlocker is a belt-and-suspenders approach to reducing the possibility of things going wrong, in the hopes of reducing warranty claims, and as an insurance against possible lawsuits.

Most folks aren't overly concerned with the opinions of Saturday mechanics who may wish to service these things later.
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Report this Post06-30-2020 01:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MonstertoneClick Here to Email MonstertoneSend a Private Message to MonstertoneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
After serious consideration, I followed Will's advice & took the easy way out. That is, swapping bell housings only. After breaking two HF T-50 sockets, (grrr) someone clued me in on MAP gas extrem heat to break loose Locktite red. (Grrr again) Easy when you know how but tough learning experience non the less.
Due to the fact they rely on a complete Cavalier case, this rules out WCF mounts. No love lost there. Don't ask how I know. lol But I'm not out of the woods yet. One would like to think a metric bell housing is a metric bell housing. As such at least the mounting points for the tranny would be similar to, if not the same as the M282. But no, the powers that be couldn't have that. What have others done for mounts on a setup such as this? All links, pics, appreciated. Thank you all.

[This message has been edited by Monstertone (edited 06-30-2020).]

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Will
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Report this Post07-01-2020 10:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
As discussed in this thread, Thelin's rear bracket should work.
ONE bolt of Thelin's front bracket lines up on the Ecotec case, so you can probably use that bracket as a starting point.
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