I have to say, I had mixed hopes on my mounting process as I had a poly Rodney Dickman engine mount and dogbone, a Roger Thelin rear trans mount bracket with a stock mount and a FOY front trans bracket and a Dodge truck mount...
Needless to say the RD and Thelin products fit like GM made 'em themselves, whereas FOY's mount... well this is what I was shown would happen:
And this is what I got:
Basically the bolt holes in the mount sat on the 90* bend of the front side of the cradle crossmember. The bracket is being cut and rewelded to move the mount back this week.
Other than that, the Exedy clutch part #04088 for the Pontiac Fiero has no clearance issue whatsoever with the bell housing. Granted this is isn't a fancy stage three plus super ultra clamp clutch, it's a stock replacement on an ATP 88 flywheel, but Jncomutt's observation on pressure plate design proved correct again...
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[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 05-20-2013).]
I have the 3.94 gearing in my car and I wish I had driven this trans before getting it installed. The transmission is great, but the gearing sucks for the 3800. First gear and much of second is pretty much useless. The lower gear ratio swap would have been nice...
I have the 3.94 gearing in my car and I wish I had driven this trans before getting it installed. The transmission is great, but the gearing sucks for the 3800. First gear and much of second is pretty much useless. The lower gear ratio swap would have been nice...
The 3.94 gearing is great for "performance driving", makes a 3800 N/A feel pretty quick, but for a DD in traffic, it sucks because of the high level of engine braking it provides.
to upgrade your pressure plate... take your new stock gm 2.8 pressure plate with the old one as well to your local clutch store, most cities have them. have them take them both apart and reassemble the new pressure plate with one extra spring per location than when stock. it will increase your lbs per inch holding power by around 500 with minimal pedal feel change. this is a low buck option with good results. so if your stock gm 2.8 pressure plate had 1200lbs per inch holding power stock it would now have around 1700. that is similar to most heavy duty units. would be fine for a spirited street 3800sc. if you need more get a stock sachs pressure plate new for the 2.8 they start around 1700lbs so the mod would yield around 2200lbs, similar to spec 3-4 units. just my .02
to upgrade your pressure plate... take your new stock gm 2.8 pressure plate with the old one as well to your local clutch store, most cities have them. have them take them both apart and reassemble the new pressure plate with one extra spring per location than when stock. it will increase your lbs per inch holding power by around 500 with minimal pedal feel change. this is a low buck option with good results. so if your stock gm 2.8 pressure plate had 1200lbs per inch holding power stock it would now have around 1700. that is similar to most heavy duty units. would be fine for a spirited street 3800sc. if you need more get a stock sachs pressure plate new for the 2.8 they start around 1700lbs so the mod would yield around 2200lbs, similar to spec 3-4 units. just my .02
Not sure what you're talking about, as the front wheel drive clutches use diaphragm springs.
Sounds like you're talking about a coil spring clutch.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-23-2013).]
Adapter from the clip quick connect on the F23/F40 to 4AN...
The beauty is that if you take the flex line off the slave end of the Fiero Store's stainless steel clutch line, it's a 4AN connector. Just a simple AN hose is all that's needed.
NOTE: If anyone in is having trouble viewing the images associated with this tutorial, I've downloaded the archived images using a VPN. I then reassembled & reformatted the tutorial for easier reading & uploaded the result >here< as a PDF that you can freely download & view locally. Cheers.
[This message has been edited by kaistallings (edited 07-29-2017).]
NOTE: If anyone in is having trouble viewing the images associated with this tutorial, I have downloaded the archived images using a VPN. I then reassembled & reformatted the tutorial for easier reading, and deleted a few hyperlinks that were no longer in service. I have uploaded the result >here< as a PDF that you can freely download & view locally via your browser or phone. Cheers.
Indeed, thank you for taking the time to do this. We need to keep information like this alive. A+ to you.
[This message has been edited by Lunatic (edited 11-17-2015).]
NOTE: If anyone in is having trouble viewing the images associated with this tutorial, I have downloaded the archived images using a VPN. I then reassembled & reformatted the tutorial for easier reading, and deleted a few hyperlinks that were no longer in service. I have uploaded the result >here< as a PDF that you can freely download & view locally via your browser or phone. Cheers.
You're my new hero! I was just bellyaching the other night that the pics were gone.....and now....you saved it!
Hey Lunatic! (Like that name!) I saw a thread where you were making Mounts for Mr. Cam-a-lot. Great looking work!! Your reputation with Cam-A-Lot is well deserved!! How are the mounts coming along? Any updates? I know it's winter and if your like me, everything slows down. Not wanting to highjack this thread, but maybe your work can be included, It's AMAZING!! Wondering if you were going to try to sell a few also. Thanks!! Doug
I am not sure if he plans to sell more of them- feel free to PM him about his intentions. He is using a WCF engine mount I gave him, so the F23 mounts should work with the other engine mounts that are similar to WCF.
Hey Lunatic! (Like that name!) I saw a thread where you were making Mounts for Mr. Cam-a-lot. Great looking work!! Your reputation with Cam-A-Lot is well deserved!! How are the mounts coming along? Any updates? I know it's winter and if your like me, everything slows down. Not wanting to highjack this thread, but maybe your work can be included, It's AMAZING!! Wondering if you were going to try to sell a few also. Thanks!! Doug
Hey Doug.
Thanks for the compliment. In time, I do wish to offer a "nice" set of F23 mounts to the people on this forum. The thing is, they have to be designed and built well. Anyone can take some steel and cobble something together. I don't go down that road. I've seen too many hacked items and poor welds on way too many forums. I have access to the state-of-the-art equipment so why not use it? It only makes sense.
In Pete's case, he wanted to have a set that bolts into the existing holes on the 88 cradle. I understand that some don't want to hack up a nice cradle. Hence the time required to do this R&D takes longer. I might go through a few revision changes before I'm satisfied with the end result.
If this was my car, I'd cut the cradle and use a four point mounting system to mount the driveline. No dog bone(s) and I can put the mounts where ever I want. Since this is an F23 thread, I can say that as it's related.
After I get one set fully ready to go, I'll see if there are any tester's available. I'd like to see what they have to say and see where other issue's might arise. I'm not there yet but I'll start a thread when the time is right.
Sounds great ! I haven't even started my swap yet which will start out with the original 282 but like to think ahead. Let me know when you are ready to start selling your F23 mounts for pre 88 Fieros.
Bump. I'm in the market for an F23 for my 3800SC swap. Looks like the gearing I want is in the 00-02 Cavalier/Sunfire? How do these transmissions hold up over time? Obviously low miles is generally better, but is there a mileage threshold that I should stay below? Also, has anyone actually made and marketed mounts? I've seen a bunch of "I'm going to make mounts" posts, but they're all from 2011-2013.
Bump. I'm in the market for an F23 for my 3800SC swap. Looks like the gearing I want is in the 00-02 Cavalier/Sunfire? How do these transmissions hold up over time? Obviously low miles is generally better, but is there a mileage threshold that I should stay below? Also, has anyone actually made and marketed mounts? I've seen a bunch of "I'm going to make mounts" posts, but they're all from 2011-2013.
The transmission you want is from the 00-02 Cavalier/Sunfire with the same bolt pattern as the 3800 (make sure the donor car is not an Ecotec). However, the gearing is not great. There is a better gear ratio available from later model Cobalt SS cars I believe- just search the forum for the specifics.
My F23 has held up well, and I have hammered it quite a few times. It also seems to be a plentiful transmission in case you break it. Maybe someone who has changed the gearing can chime in to how much difference it made? The stock F23 gearing is more suited to the underpowered 4 cyl that it originally cam with- First gear is pretty useless with the 3800 and it does rev a little too high on the highway
NOTE: If anyone in is having trouble viewing the images associated with this tutorial, I have downloaded the archived images using a VPN. I then reassembled & reformatted the tutorial for easier reading, and deleted a few hyperlinks that were no longer in service. I have uploaded the result >here< as a PDF that you can freely download & view locally via your browser or phone. Cheers.
Bump. I am newbie here and been doing F23 research for months and decided to join yesterday. I also decided to make a donation and ask others to consider giving a little
Now, I too am in the market for F23 trans mounts and cable brackets for my 87 ZZ4 V8 Fiero with TH125. I have a F23 (FY1) with V6 bell housing and MT parts cars. At this point I am ready to purchase the key components for the swap.
- F23 Trans Mounts: Purchase from ? or fab myself and take a little more time - F23 Shifter Brackets: Purchase from ? or fab myself and take much longer - F23 Starter Mount: Purchase from? or fab my self, I suspect my only open is to fab this one - F23 Shifter Cables: Purchase stock 88 V6 Select Cable (74") from Push Pull along with longer customer F23 swap cable. Length would be 86.5"???. Or just ask for Dan when ordering?
- Flywheel: 153 steel V8 Fiero flywheel for modification to 142, or are there any other feasible solutions here? - Clutch: Spec 3+, Superclamp flywheel (3800) or Clutchnet 6 puck sprung hub with 2x "red" pressure plate. Hmmm Im thinking SPEC based on a few posts but not sure I understand why the Centerforce DF will not not work? - THOB Spacer: .270" HTOB shim for SBC. May need to measure first. - HTOB: Which one for a hybride F23 case and V8 swap I donnoo. Perhaps this depends on the clutch I choose? - HTOB Adapter: McLeod #139160, Summit Racing - Clutch Master Cylinder: Reuse stock unless there are better options or choices to select from?
kaistallings - Thank you Sir! So did the images from the bell housing, flywheel, clutch, spacer, shift cables, starter and VSS sections earlier in the L67 post get lost forever?
[This message has been edited by NoLimits (edited 12-27-2016).]
Flywheel - ironically when the F23 was first put onto my SBC, the oversized flywheel was turned down to be the same size and gear-tooth as a stock V6 Fiero flywheel. I don't recally if FieroGuru had to change it at all when he did my EFI conversion.
The HTOB doesn't matter which clutch you pick. The HTOB used by the F23 is the same one used by the F40, so any HTOB you can find for those transmissions should work.
The spacer we used was a .270" one.
I used the stock master cylinder.
I know I didn't get to all of your questions, but a lot of them it seems you found the right info when you were posting the question. Hopefully the NC Fiero thread will have the rest of the details you need, and the revised shift arm for the transmission on the PFF thread I linked secondly.
I can ask EMC if he has the pictures still and send them to me, and I can repair the links on the NC Fiero thread.
Great thread overall. Thanks to everyone who has contributed info. In particular, I'd like to send a + to the most recent posts' members: Kaistallings for making a .pdf file of the original F23 Turorial. Cam-a-lot for info and links to the GT Forum info on this F23 swap topic. Lunatic for great info and some awesome 3D modelling and design work. Trinten for concise answers to NoLimits questions.
I currently have a '84 notchback I bought two years ago. I like to track-day the car...it is awesome to blow by 911s, Boss 302s, Camaro SSs, and the like. It has a Gen I SBC 355 V8 swap and many custom body mods. But it still has a stock 4-spd tranny. It is time for me to upgrade the tranny and refresh the engine. So this thread on an F23 upgrade is very useful to my research on what tranny I might go with. I have a low miles stock '86 Fiero Getrag 5-spd in great condition that came with the car's spare parts inventory.
I am still wondering if I should just pop in the '86 tranny or go with an F23? Or go with something newer even like a 6-spd F40 with a Quaife LSD? My main criteria for selection is durability and longevity, secondarily is ease of installation. And I would love to have the extra performance capability of an LSD. What do you guys think?
Thanks in advance for any replys.
------------------ Kevin J. Sibley, Ph.D., P.Eng., P.Ag., C.Ht. "Racing for Life" TM
Great thread overall. Thanks to everyone who has contributed info. In particular, I'd like to send a + to the most recent posts' members: Kaistallings for making a .pdf file of the original F23 Turorial. Cam-a-lot for info and links to the GT Forum info on this F23 swap topic. Lunatic for great info and some awesome 3D modelling and design work. Trinten for concise answers to NoLimits questions.
I currently have a '84 notchback I bought two years ago. I like to track-day the car...it is awesome to blow by 911s, Boss 302s, Camaro SSs, and the like. It has a Gen I SBC 355 V8 swap and many custom body mods. But it still has a stock 4-spd tranny. It is time for me to upgrade the tranny and refresh the engine. So this thread on an F23 upgrade is very useful to my research on what tranny I might go with. I have a low miles stock '86 Fiero Getrag 5-spd in great condition that came with the car's spare parts inventory.
I am still wondering if I should just pop in the '86 tranny or go with an F23? Or go with something newer even like a 6-spd F40 with a Quaife LSD? My main criteria for selection is durability and longevity, secondarily is ease of installation. And I would love to have the extra performance capability of an LSD. What do you guys think?
Thanks in advance for any replys.
I think the F23 will be your better option for the reasons listed in this thread; HOWEVER, for track day and such I believe you will be disappointed with the gearing in the 60* bellhousing units from the Cavaliers. They are simply too short and you run out of gear very quickly. I am in the process of swapping in the FY1 gears from the 2010 Cobalt (the eco package offered on some models of that car). This doesn't change the individual gears, but does change the final drive from 3.93 to 3.63, which will make a pretty significant difference for the performance, though I can't speak to it personally because I haven't finished the swap yet.
Quaife also makes an LSD for the F23 -- I have one in mine Thought putting it in does require about 100 dollars (give or take) of speciality tools to take the transmission apart and put it back together properly.
If I remember correctly, the F40 has some other issues that will creep up, and make getting your starter in place more complicated (this might only apply with the LS motors... so grain of salt).
The other benefits to the F23 (and probably the F40), is the abuse they can stand up to. There's been very low numbers of these two transmissions failing. One of the failures was from the axle snapping and whipping around, breaking the transmission housing. The factory Fiero Transmissions will stand up to the torque loading of the SBC... but not likely to last as long*.
*My original muncie 4 speed stood up to some intense activity over the course of a decade, but I consider this more luck than anything.
I can't speak for the gear ratio part, I'm pretty happy with mine, and my objectives are more for 1/4 mile than anything else.
I found this video on youtube which should be really helpful for anyone wanting to split the case on this transmission. I'm splitting mine tomorrow to swap in FY1 gears.
NOTE: If anyone in is having trouble viewing the images associated with this tutorial, I've downloaded the archived images using a VPN. I then reassembled & reformatted the tutorial for easier reading & uploaded the result >here< as a PDF that you can freely download & view locally. Cheers.
kaistallings, thanks again for pulling the document into a PDF. Repped. I noticed in the original post by L67 it was started 10-19-2011 and he modified 12-30-2011. Is there any way to get the updated pictures with the modifications?
The you tube vid on swapping the bell housings evidently no longer exists. Nor is it included in the excellent pdf file. Before I jump into this both feet flat footed, are there any special tools needed to perform this swap? Are the seal & oil guide mentioned the only parts that will be damaged in the process?
That's the vid I was looking for. Thanks for the sppedy reply. Wow, I didn't think I was going to have to go to GM school just to swap out a bell housing. Am I going to need to purchase that tool kit as well? And if the answer is yes, I have some other questions. I noticed two threaded bosses, feet if you will, on the bottom of the Cavi trans. Aside from the fact that everything inside that trans has seen twenty years of service, it would seem perhaps more accommodating to just swap the differentials (final drive ratio), keeping the whole Cavi case having not only the metric bell housing, but what looks to be more convenient mounting feet on it's under side as well. And if going to that much trouble, since all the rest of the gear ratios are the same, why not just lift out & swap all three gear sets, along with all the newer internals? Please tell me why no one has done this. I realize this is a hell of a lot of trouble just for the difference between 3.63 & 3.94:1 fdr & mounting feet but, I end up with a ten year newer Cavi trans having the taller fdr & mounting feet & what's left to gather dust would be an Ecotec tranny that was not so accommodating for mounting, having a 3.94 fdr, & ten year older guts.
[This message has been edited by Monstertone (edited 04-24-2020).]
Pretty sure the 2.2 pushrod transmission has a 3.94 FD.
The shafts are retained in the outer case half by bearings which are pressed in place. The bearings at the outer end handle the axial loads on the shafts from the helix angle of the gear teeth.
The pinion of the ring & pinion is integral on the output shaft. That means you have to remove the output shaft from the transmission in order to swap the FD from one outer case to another. You can't remove just the output shaft, though. The input cluster and output cluster have to come out together.
IOW, swapping cases on the same gear clusters is a whole lot more work than swapping the bellhousings on two different transmissions.
Thought putting it in does require about 100 dollars (give or take) of speciality tools to take the transmission apart and put it back together properly. 
