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The Getrag F23 Tutorial - By Emc209i by L67
Started on: 10-19-2011 04:38 AM
Replies: 209 (38657 views)
Last post by: Will on 07-01-2020 10:19 AM
L67
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Report this Post01-14-2012 01:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for L67Click Here to Email L67Send a Private Message to L67Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by voodoochikin04:
so where would one go to get that bleeder unit for the f23? my trans didnt come with that and i CANNOT find one..


I am confident to a very high degree that the plastic bleeder for clutch hydraulics is universal to all of Getrags newer transmissions and transaxles (Getrag F series; F23, F25, F35, F40). You can either find it in the slave of any of these newer transmissions in a yard, or you can get the part number from a GM dealership and order the piece.
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Report this Post01-14-2012 09:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JncomuttClick Here to Email JncomuttSend a Private Message to JncomuttEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

I found the out hard way, Roger Thelin's rear swap bracket is an 88 only item... just thought the rest of you should know.


Eric, on one of my F23 swaps, I used Thelins bracket (hoping it would be much easier), and I ran into the same issues. I ended up having to cut back a bit of the cradle in that area, and even file down some of the mount.

I also wanted to add that I know of a broken 4th gear behind a 3800. I don't really talk to the guy much anymore but I can confirm a stripped 4th gear F23. If I happen to go back to CT this spring/summer or such, I'll see if I can get some more details, or see if the trans is still around to be taken apart. I don't know how one breaks 4th gear, but that's the word. Car still drove with 1,2,3,5.

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 01-14-2012).]

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carbon
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Report this Post01-14-2012 04:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Jncomutt:

Car still drove with 1,2,3,5.



Those are really the only gears you need anyway...

How much is the rear Thelin mount? I do have an 88 and I wouldn't mind not having to make both mounts...
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Report this Post01-14-2012 05:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
right now, I'm looking at one of two options, one, modify Thelins bracket(which cost me $125!) or 2, make my own mount, I'm confident I can do either, I was just hoping Thelin's mount would work for the time factor. otherwise, the mounting should be easy enough, the engine is already mounted up front with a rodney dickman poly mount, so that's one mount out of the question, and I've already got a couple of plans for the front mount. as for the rear, I'm using Thelin's mount as a guide, just building it to a lower profiles.

it'll be alot of work, but the main thing I don't like about it is that it'll take longer.

Thanks for the input-

262

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Report this Post01-14-2012 11:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mattwaClick Here to Email mattwaSend a Private Message to mattwaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by carbon:


Those are really the only gears you need anyway...

How much is the rear Thelin mount? I do have an 88 and I wouldn't mind not having to make both mounts...


I'm worried about the condition of my F23...just being me. It turns and shifts freely in every gear, so I hope it's ok.

It's $125, which in your case Nick is money well spent. I just didn't have that much to spend on a mount, I would have the same issues others are having with the pre-88 cradles, and it's only 1/8" thick stamped steel. Being stamped helps with strength, but it just wasn't thick enough for me, because I'm giving myself some room for a possible turbo addition in the future.
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Report this Post01-16-2012 08:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by mattwa:

It's $125, which in your case Nick is money well spent. I just didn't have that much to spend on a mount, I would have the same issues others are having with the pre-88 cradles, and it's only 1/8" thick stamped steel. Being stamped helps with strength, but it just wasn't thick enough for me, because I'm giving myself some room for a possible turbo addition in the future.


In my case? You thinks me rich? I am already freaking out about the $750 outlay for the 3500/F23/clutch/collection of parts that I recently acquired, plus a fancy custom shift cable (very nice)... I do have pedals, shifter and axles, thanks to a good friend, but I am still down on the hydraulics and a stock Getrag select cable. People that say that swaps are cheap are people who had a lot of crap laying around to start with... And probably aren't doing an auto to manual swap at the same time.

I have a do have a cheap MIG(at least it runs off of 220V) that I got at black Friday time two years ago, but have yet to fire it up. This whole thing is going to be a learning experience with an apparent steep curve...

I really need to start selling stuff.

[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 01-16-2012).]

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mattwa
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Report this Post01-16-2012 01:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mattwaClick Here to Email mattwaSend a Private Message to mattwaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by carbon:


In my case? You thinks me rich? I am already freaking out about the $750 outlay for the 3500/F23/clutch/collection of parts that I recently acquired, plus a fancy custom shift cable (very nice)... I do have pedals, shifter and axles, thanks to a good friend, but I am still down on the hydraulics and a stock Getrag select cable. People that say that swaps are cheap are people who had a lot of crap laying around to start with... And probably aren't doing an auto to manual swap at the same time.

I have a do have a cheap MIG(at least it runs off of 220V) that I got at black Friday time two years ago, but have yet to fire it up. This whole thing is going to be a learning experience with an apparent steep curve...

I really need to start selling stuff.



I have been there done that...twice. Going from auto manual is worth it after it's all said and done, however it's ALOT of work and, at least for me, very very painful and frustrating. I'd vote swapping out the pedals is the worst, and removing the automatic cooler lines and replacing it with the clutch hydraulic line is 2nd worst. But again that is just me and my experience.
But I'm glad to see you are acquiring parts and preparing for a swap.

With that mount, no I didn't mean to imply you were rich or something, I meant a 3500 and your more...mature driving style (just a guess), wouldn't be an issue with the thinner 1/8" mount. I made something that is possibly overkill so I didn't break it. Plus, that was by far, the hardest mount to make, so the $125 is well worth the price in that case.
But still, $750 is nothing..you don't want to know the amount of money into my 3800 swap so far, or the 4.9 swap even.
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Report this Post01-16-2012 07:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mattwaClick Here to Email mattwaSend a Private Message to mattwaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just as an FYI, it looks like the stock Fiero axles are just a tad long for the F23, but since many have already done it, I'm sure they will work just fine. I belevie this is because the F23's differential area is wider then a stock Fiero manual transmission, therefore pushing the axles out a bit.
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Report this Post01-19-2012 07:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for L67Click Here to Email L67Send a Private Message to L67Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Tripods eat any variance. It's not like space is tight, the stock axles are a great fit.

[This message has been edited by L67 (edited 01-19-2012).]

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L67
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Report this Post01-23-2012 11:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for L67Click Here to Email L67Send a Private Message to L67Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by mattwa:
I'm worried about the condition of my F23...just being me. It turns and shifts freely in every gear, so I hope it's ok.


You really don't need to be. Your transmission came from a 2200 series engine, which doesn't have the torque to stress the F23 in any substantial form. Aside from synchro's wearing out, the gears should be in great condition on even the highest mileage engine. Not exactly your pop's Isuzu we're talking about.
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Report this Post01-24-2012 12:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mattwaClick Here to Email mattwaSend a Private Message to mattwaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by L67:


You really don't need to be. Your transmission came from a 2200 series engine, which doesn't have the torque to stress the F23 in any substantial form. Aside from synchro's wearing out, the gears should be in great condition on even the highest mileage engine. Not exactly your pop's Isuzu we're talking about.


True.

One thing I did notice today while trying to install the shift cables into the Fiero, is the hole on the custom shift cable that goes over the pin on the shift lever, was too small! I had to go to my drill press and drill it out a slight amount. The peg on the Fiero shifter is very very close to 1/4", and a 1/4" drill bit wouldn't fit though the hole, so I drilled it out to 1/4" which took off a slight amount, then I was able to push it on the shifter. No play whatsoever either, it's quite tight. some oil helped it move easier though.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 01-24-2012).]

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Report this Post01-24-2012 12:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for L67Click Here to Email L67Send a Private Message to L67Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You're talking about the brass bushing on the cable end. Yes, I've had to do that three times to date. I normally drill the hole to 9/32" - 7mm, you probably should also. Works really well.

[This message has been edited by L67 (edited 01-26-2012).]

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Report this Post03-27-2012 03:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 1988holleyformulaSend a Private Message to 1988holleyformulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
bump.
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Report this Post03-27-2012 03:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mattwaClick Here to Email mattwaSend a Private Message to mattwaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Dang, L67 was finally banned...oh well. Still an awesome write up, and what got me to start my F23 swap. Just make sure to reduce the pedal travel in a stock Fiero or it will over-extend the Throw out bearing!!! Don't want anyone else to go through what I have to if I can help it.
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Report this Post03-27-2012 07:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm sorry to see him go. I got into it with him a few months ago and since then I realized that he wasn't just talking crap out his ass and he is a decent guy.
As for reducing the throw of the master, how does that affect pedal height and height of engagement?

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Report this Post03-27-2012 09:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mattwaClick Here to Email mattwaSend a Private Message to mattwaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:

I'm sorry to see him go. I got into it with him a few months ago and since then I realized that he wasn't just talking crap out his ass and he is a decent guy.
As for reducing the throw of the master, how does that affect pedal height and height of engagement?



It'll drop the clutch pedal height for sure, but it shouldn't change the height of engagement. Can't tell you for sure though yet.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 03-27-2012).]

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Will
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Report this Post03-27-2012 09:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by mattwa:

It'll drop the clutch pedal height for sure, but it shouldn't change the height of engagement. Can't tell you for sure though yet.


I haven't read the whole thread... The right way to reduce clutch MC travel is to install a pedal stop, which does not reduce the height of the pedal.
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Report this Post03-27-2012 09:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mattwaClick Here to Email mattwaSend a Private Message to mattwaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by Will:


I haven't read the whole thread... The right way to reduce clutch MC travel is to install a pedal stop, which does not reduce the height of the pedal.


When you space out the MC, you are, in a way, installing a pedal stop...i.e the floor. Reducing the height of the pedal is actually a good thing in my case because of my long legs and large feet/shoes.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 03-27-2012).]

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Report this Post03-28-2012 07:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have 12+ shoes and I think it would be better for the pedal to be further from the floor. I have to push the clutch with only the left edge of my foot in order to avoid both the brake pedal and the dead pedal/wheel house. If the clutch pedal stopped an inch off the floor, it would be easier for my to use because I could use the ball of my foot.
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Report this Post03-28-2012 12:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mattwaClick Here to Email mattwaSend a Private Message to mattwaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by Will:

I have 12+ shoes and I think it would be better for the pedal to be further from the floor. I have to push the clutch with only the left edge of my foot in order to avoid both the brake pedal and the dead pedal/wheel house. If the clutch pedal stopped an inch off the floor, it would be easier for my to use because I could use the ball of my foot.


My foot isn't that wide, but I wear size 15 shoes..If I don't use the very tip of my foot, when I release the clutch my foot gets stuck in the dash. so a lower pedal would help.
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Report this Post03-28-2012 10:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LEEEZARDClick Here to Email LEEEZARDSend a Private Message to LEEEZARDEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
what happened to l67? this is a great writeup.
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Report this Post03-28-2012 10:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by LEEEZARD:

what happened to l67? this is a great writeup.


He hurt peoples feelings and he hurt peoples feelings for hurting peoples feelings.

There is a thread in OT discussing this.

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carbon
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Report this Post03-29-2012 07:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by Justinbart:


He hurt peoples feelings and he hurt peoples feelings for hurting peoples feelings.

There is a thread in OT discussing this.



Yup... it's unfortunate really. Most of the time he played 'devil's advocate' but some people can't seem to see the difference between that and personal assaults. He tried to spread good info... just a little gruff in doing it. I never had a single problem in dealings with him and my F23 swap would not bet getting done with out his resources.

[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 03-29-2012).]

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Report this Post03-29-2012 08:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LEEEZARDClick Here to Email LEEEZARDSend a Private Message to LEEEZARDEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
i did my f23 before the writeup but still very good info. he and i had chatted back and forth a few times about the f23's and i never found him offensive.
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Report this Post04-09-2012 04:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mattwaClick Here to Email mattwaSend a Private Message to mattwaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I wanted to give an update on this, considering what I found out on my 3800/F23 swap, you more likely then not need a HTOB spacer for that setup, depending on what clutch you use. Same thing applies for a 2.8/3.4, except I think it's even worse in that case.
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Report this Post04-09-2012 05:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for doublec4Click Here to Email doublec4Send a Private Message to doublec4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by mattwa:

I wanted to give an update on this, considering what I found out on my 3800/F23 swap, you more likely then not need a HTOB spacer for that setup, depending on what clutch you use. Same thing applies for a 2.8/3.4, except I think it's even worse in that case.


Which clutch did you use?
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Report this Post04-09-2012 09:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mattwaClick Here to Email mattwaSend a Private Message to mattwaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My first clutch was a stock 2.8 Getrag clutch, and is what the HTOB exploded on. I didn't measure when It was still installed on the flywheel, but I'm positive the fingers don't stick out as far as the slightly used Spec 2+ I upgraded too does. Best thing to do is measure the distance between the bellhousing face and the clutch PP fingers. Someone else with the same stock getrag clutch got 2.089", while I got 2.330".

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 04-09-2012).]

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Report this Post05-14-2012 03:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for D_sensitizedClick Here to Email D_sensitizedSend a Private Message to D_sensitizedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I just finished my F23 swap so figured id add some info from my experience.

F23 from a 2000 cavalier
3800 SC1 from a 1995 Oldsmobile 88
88 Fiero gt auto
Clutchnet clutch stage 2 for 88 Fiero v6 5 speed

I did have to clearance the diff housing inside the bell housing to fit the pressure plate, still hits if I press the clutch all the way in so I put a stop behind the petal, still enough to properly engage/disengage.

I did not need a spacer for the throw out bearing, measured before hand and haven't had any issues.

I changed the design of L67s shift cable bracket to move it over and avoid denting in the strut tower.

Stock Fiero axles, cut half the clutch fitting and welded on an AN -4 fitting instead of using thelins adaptor (made the rest of the clutch line from scratch)
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Report this Post05-14-2012 03:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for sharing! I hope people continue to add to this thread with their methods of mounting these things!
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Report this Post05-14-2012 03:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TrintenSend a Private Message to TrintenEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
D_Sensatized,

How did you measure your HTOB travel to make sure it was going to be okay?

On the pressure plate, Capt Fiero discovered that Clutchnet actually has two different pressure plates they supply for Fieros across their stages, one of them is "taller" than the other. I have the 'shorter' one, and Capt had them swap the one he received because of interference issues on a stock rebuild he was doing. Just pointing this out so if you ever want to, you can probably get the shorter one and get rid of the pedal stop.

Glad it's all working for you though!!
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Report this Post05-14-2012 03:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for D_sensitizedClick Here to Email D_sensitizedSend a Private Message to D_sensitizedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
To measure the HTOB, I followed what mattwa had done in his thread, measured the distance from bellhousing face to pressure plate fingers on the engine, and from bellhousing face to HTOB at max and min extension on the trans. I don't remember the exact numbers, but i have enough room to account for clutch plate wear and not have to worry about overextending it either.

I think I remember capt fiero mentioning something about the 2 heights of plates, I'll ask him about it next time I see him, I don't know which one I have, just that it was the one built for a 88 fiero 5 speed w/ v6. Having the pedal stop doesn't bother me, it's just a block of wood under the carpet, so if i press the pedal to the floor, it's just the right amount of travel.

[This message has been edited by D_sensitized (edited 05-14-2012).]

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Report this Post05-14-2012 04:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mattwaClick Here to Email mattwaSend a Private Message to mattwaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yep, that is the correct way to measure for HTOB travel. I got this info from Fieroguru, who also suggested that 2/3 of the travel should be for disengagement, while 1/3 should be left for clutch wear.

I had to use the spacer because of PP fingers on the stock Getrag replacement PP are almost flush with the PP after it is installed, and I decided to use that instead of the SPEC PP because I didn't want to take a big chunk out of the inside of the case. The SPEC PP fingers stuck out a good bit farther when installed.

Because of this, I bought Rodney Dickman's adjustable clutch banjo, and I adjusted it as short as it could go, to make the pedal travel very short compared to what it normally is. And it works perfect, very little pedal travel is needed to disengage it. Sadly, even with an N/A 3800, I have found my SPEC Stage 2+ clutch slips If i'm not careful. :/

Just to give a visual, my clutch pedal is now about 2 inches lower then the brake pedal. I'm waiting for the moment when some Fiero guy looks at it and says "Dude, look at your clutch pedal, it's incredibly bent!" Haha.

[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 05-14-2012).]

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Report this Post08-04-2012 12:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for katore8105Click Here to visit katore8105's HomePageSend a Private Message to katore8105Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Bump for a good thread. Maybe even a good candidate for "FAQs & HowTos" for easy finding. Wish I could give him another + to get him back.
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Report this Post08-04-2012 03:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochClick Here to Email aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by mattwa:

Yep, that is the correct way to measure for HTOB travel. I got this info from Fieroguru, who also suggested that 2/3 of the travel should be for disengagement, while 1/3 should be left for clutch wear.





I'm 99% sure that as the clutch wears, the fingers move CLOSER to the T/O bearing, not further away. This is also a non-issue with hydraulic clutches (assuming the master is good) as when the pedal is released, pressure is equalized to prevent requiring any adjustment of the clutch.

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Currently in the middle of my 88 + 3800NA swap

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fieroguru
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Report this Post08-04-2012 04:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by aaronkoch:

I'm 99% sure that as the clutch wears, the fingers move CLOSER to the T/O bearing, not further away.


It does. Take the total range of motion of the HTOB (say it is 1.5") and you want it setup with 2/3's (or 1") of the available travel to the front for disengagement, and 1/3 (1/2") for it to retract backwards as the clutch disk wears.
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BlownFiero86
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Report this Post08-28-2012 04:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BlownFiero86Send a Private Message to BlownFiero86Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I found a video on youtube that helped me with the dissassembly of the f23 for a bell housing swap from cobalt to cavalier for my 3800sc. I could not understand the language being spoke the being able to watch the steps being done was good enough to give me better idea on what to do. Hope it helps someone else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6ulVQsiknY

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86GT, 3800SC, GETRAG, true duals, 3.4 pulley, comp VS cam, zzp match flow injectors, zzp power log, WCF air intake, ARP bolts, comp lifters and push rods, 90# springs, SI stainless valves, aero-force scantech meter.
Here is my build thread http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/122548.html

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mcguiver3
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Report this Post08-29-2012 07:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mcguiver3Send a Private Message to mcguiver3Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Questions?
It doesn't look like the input shaft is long enough to engage the crankshaft in a 2.8 V6?
Is this correct?
Are there any problems with mating this to the V6 except for the cables, TOB and mounts?
Can a stock clutch be used?
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Will
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Report this Post08-29-2012 09:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by mcguiver3:
It doesn't look like the input shaft is long enough to engage the crankshaft in a 2.8 V6?



FWD transmissions don't use pilot bushings
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mcguiver3
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Report this Post08-29-2012 10:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mcguiver3Send a Private Message to mcguiver3Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I know we don't have pilot bearings but the stock Getrag input shaft does engage the
Engine crank shaft, right? even though there is no bearing.
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Will
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Report this Post08-29-2012 11:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There is overlap between an unsplined portion of the input shaft and the bore in the crank into which pilot bearing would be installed, but there is no contact. There is no engagement.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 08-29-2012).]

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