Another reason I hate these shops....

A gf of mine who lives in Louisville got new tires put on her Nissan minivan to come up for Thanksgiving. She had her husband and 5 kids with her. Just north of Cincinnati, she had what she thought was a blowout till she saw her wheel and tire go by. She managed to stop without a major wreck. She called AAA to put it back on and they found all the studs broken off. Flatbed took it to a repair shop where they found at least 3 studs on each other wheel broken. They showed her ON THE GOOD ONES, the cracks where they were ready to break too. The tire shop used an impact gun to put the lugs on. I NEVER let them do that myself. If they cant do it by hand, I take the wheels to them for tire mounting, and put them on myself. Just a word of advice. Ive had the same experience. A brake shop did the brakes on my van because I was too busy to mess with them. They put them all on so tight, they were ALL cross threaded and every stud broke off trying to loosen them. Ive had customer cars with lugs so tight I needed a 4' steel pipe over the handle to loosen them.

I've seen that happen as well Roger and I am still guilty of using my impact gun for putting them on myself and I know better, but with my back I really can't do them by hand anymore. So I cheat, ya I said that I cheat, but in a good way, I turn my impact gun all the way down and just put them on snug then go around with a torque wrench to specs.

Glad she was OK and no one got hurt.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

What is a torque wrench?

I have always used the lug wrench until I couldn't move it. Okay for steel wheels, but I suppose alloy wheels should be torqued to a specific level?

[This message has been edited by heybjorn (edited 12-01-2013).]

quote Originally posted by heybjorn: What is a torque wrench? I have always used the lug wrench until I couldn't move it. Okay for steel wheels, but I suppose alloy wheels should be torqued to a specific level?

A YA and torqued again after driving 20 or so miles.

Steve

quote Originally posted by heybjorn: What is a torque wrench? I have always used the lug wrench until I couldn't move it. Okay for steel wheels, but I suppose alloy wheels should be torqued to a specific level?

A torque wrench is like a sex-o-meter. It tells you if you are doing it right.
lug wrench till it couldn't move ? They make bigger ones. Alloy wheels, steel wheels, doesn't matter. If you over torque you will warp the brake disc causing a wobble when brakes are applied and damaging the bearings.

quote Originally posted by heybjorn: What is a torque wrench?

Fiero factory manuals specify a torque value of 100 pound feet for wheel nuts.

Here are some handles: http://www.harborfreight.co...sult?q=torque+wrench

That's where you can tell a good shop from a bad one. My daughter had some work done and they left a wheel a little loose. Same thing, wheel came off. When she told the shop about it they told her to bring in the receipt . When she did they gave here a refund for the wheel and wrecker bill. Also replaced all 5 studs. You know where I take the stuff around her that I don't do myself.

The correct way to use an impact gun is to use torque sticks and then a torque wrench. Over tightening the studs can cause the studs to break, make it difficult to remove the lug nuts and can also warp the rotors. Turning the pressure down on the impact gun is not the answer. The lug nuts need to be properly torqued. This is a constant battle most shop owners face with their mechanics and is all about the human nature of being lazy. Most say they don't have the time to do it correctly, I say make the time. I don't want any of my customers injured because of the mechanic's laziness.

quote Originally posted by heybjorn: What is a torque wrench?

An essential tool for doing the job right. Now that you can buy acceptable-quality Asian-made torque wrenches for less than $20, there's little reason not to use them.

quote I have always used the lug wrench until I couldn't move it. Okay for steel wheels, but I suppose alloy wheels should be torqued to a specific level?

The primary purpose of using a torque wrench on wheels is to ensure optimum preload of the mounting studs/screws. It is still important with steel wheels, but it is even more important with aluminum alloy wheels: 1) to prevent wheel cracking due to overtightening, and 2) to allow for the greater expansion/contraction of aluminum vs. steel with changes in temperature. Always recheck the torque on alloy wheels ... especially new wheels ... after a few days or after about a hundred miles of driving to allow for possible "creep" deformation of the aluminum.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 12-01-2013).]

Bosses wife went and got new tires on her Jeep a few months ago. The guy working in the back forgot to put the lugnuts on one tire. She made it almost two blocks before the wheel fell off.

The shop owner was a stand up guy about the whole deal, and very apologetic.

What gets me is that shops have the "village idiot" working in the tire shop, when it's actually a job that needs more brain work than other parts of the car. After having a tire come off in New Orleans I always check before I drive off, and then around 50 miles later.

Brad

They seam to have a lot of trouble with air pressure gauges too.

quote Originally posted by avengador1: The correct way to use an impact gun is to use torque sticks and then a torque wrench. Over tightening the studs can cause the studs to break, make it difficult to remove the lug nuts and can also warp the rotors. Turning the pressure down on the impact gun is not the answer. The lug nuts need to be properly torqued. This is a constant battle most shop owners face with their mechanics and is all about the human nature of being lazy. Most say they don't have the time to do it correctly, I say make the time. I don't want any of my customers injured because of the mechanic's laziness.

I didn't say I just turn the impact gun down, I said I turn it down and put the nuts on and then torque the nuts down. I know the extensions you are talking about, see them all the time at the tire stores, but as you said they must still check the torque with a torque wrench. another problem with depending on an impact gut to do this even with the torque extensions is when was the last time the tank was dumped, water drained as well as the gun itself oiled, they are supposed to be oiled daily but if someone forgets then they are not going to have the power they are rated for, even if they were ever actually right in their rating. draining water is a problem for everyone everywhere but the more humid the air is in the surrounding environment the more water will be in the lines. unless you put like a paint water filter right on the gun as well as in the lines going around the shop. I had a friend who swore by those toilet paper filters but always changed the filter element every day and put a new disposable water filter on just before the spray gun when ever he painted anything. but in a tire store you aren't as worried about water in the lines as someone who paints cars. but when they use air tools to remove and install damaged panels they are also not as worried about the water in the lines and may have a separate line in their paint booth that has a disectant (SP) filter and the disposable filter just before the gun.

Steve

[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 12-01-2013).]

quote Originally posted by cliffw: A torque wrench is like a sex-o-meter. It tells you if you are doing it right.

I thought the screaming told you that.

[This message has been edited by heybjorn (edited 12-01-2013).]

I've never used a torque wrench to tighten my lugs, I've always used a 4 way wrench and torqued it down by hand as hard as I could- then re-checked it after the next drive I took.

I never let any shop use an impact on my lugs, I've heard enough horror stories about that. Sorry about your friend's experience.

Thats not to mention impact wrenches tear up the paint or chrome on lug nuts so they rust.

I dont use a torque wrench on my lug nuts. I use a breaker bar and socket to install them. I get the right length bar so I cant over torque them.. If I cant get them off with a 10" breaker there too tight. I found out testing with a torque wrench, for my strength and that size, I get them within a few pounds of being right.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: A YA and torqued again after driving 20 or so miles. Steve

Generally 90-120 ft/lbs....and ya know, we DO live in 2013....There are these NEAT things called torque-limiters for air guns, and they are even color-coded so ya cant frack them up !! (well, cant in theory anyway, but ya know modern humans)

quote Originally posted by MidEngineManiac: Generally 90-120 ft/lbs....and ya know, we DO live in 2013....There are these NEAT things called torque-limiters for air guns, and they are even color-coded so ya cant frack them up !! (well, cant in theory anyway, but ya know modern humans)

Yeah - IF they're used, and IF they use the right one.

quote another problem with depending on an impact gut to do this even with the torque extensions is when was the last time the tank was dumped, water drained as well as the gun itself oiled

We don't have a paint shop, but we do have water separators on both compressors and every air line outlet in my shop. I don't want to have to reimburse my mechanics for their expensive air tools. They also all take care of their own air tools as their livelihood depends on them. We also drain our compressors every night.

Huh... in the 15 or so years I've been doing my own car repair, I've never heard about properly torquing wheel lugs, and I've never heard that you're not supposed to use an impact wrench to put lugs on with...

Well, hopefully you learned something new today. Its definately not a big deal with steel wheels, but it is important with alloys. Lots of people just have the mind set of the old days of steel wheels and hubcaps....to tighten them as hard as possible. I learned from my own experience years ago when a tire shop put new tires on my Mercedes SL alloys. They warped all four rotors and had to replace them. Mercedes dont use lugs and nuts (at least then). They use long tapered bolts and the rotors have threaded holes.

quote Originally posted by Rallaster: Huh... in the 15 or so years I've been doing my own car repair, I've never heard about properly torquing wheel lugs, and I've never heard that you're not supposed to use an impact wrench to put lugs on with...

I use an impact to spin on the lugs (lowest setting) then torque to specs. If the rims are nice, I spin the lugs on by hand then torque. The owner's manual usually has the torque specs.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Well, hopefully you learned something new today. Its definately not a big deal with steel wheels, but it is important with alloys. Lots of people just have the mind set of the old days of steel wheels and hubcaps....to tighten them as hard as possible. I learned from my own experience years ago when a tire shop put new tires on my Mercedes SL alloys. They warped all four rotors and had to replace them. Mercedes dont use lugs and nuts (at least then). They use long tapered bolts and the rotors have threaded holes.

"If you don't learn something new everyday you may as well just roll over and die"

Now I have always hated those Mercedes lug studs or whatever they call them, you have to use a long Philips head screwdriver to line up the holes, well at least I did when I did a tire change on the ones I did, for a friend who always brought me his, nice cars but I would never buy one just to dam expensive even used and the parts prices, Christ!

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: I use an impact to spin on the lugs (lowest setting) then torque to specs. If the rims are nice, I spin the lugs on by hand then torque. The owner's manual usually has the torque specs.

You've got to stop agreeing with me or hell is truly going to freeze over permanently.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: So I cheat, ya I said that I cheat, but in a good way, I turn my impact gun all the way down and just put them on snug then go around with a torque wrench to specs. Steve

From an article in Tire Review magazine, a tire industry trade publication:

"Torque sticks are useful, but they are no substitute for final torquing using a calibrated torque wrench.
...
"There are some very important cautions when using torque sticks. First, they should not be used to get to anywhere near final torque. Select a torque stick rated for about 2/3 of the final torque and then finish the last 1/3 of the specified torque with a torque wrench. If the fasteners don’t move with a torque wrench before the click for final torque, there is a problem or the fastener has been over-tightened.

"Many techs don’t realize that torque sticks are designed for a limited range of torque input. They must be used with an impact wrench, and if an impact tool with too high, or too low, of a setting is used, the torque stick will still over-torque the fasteners and may cause damage."

quote Huh... in the 15 or so years I've been doing my own car repair, I've never heard about properly torquing wheel lugs, and I've never heard that you're not supposed to use an impact wrench to put lugs on with...

Let me guess, you aren't ASE certified nor do you know about Industry recommendations. Torque sticks are not for setting final torque, as someone mentioned above. They are just to get the wheels on and they still need to be properly torqued.

[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 12-02-2013).]

Even more annoying (but less costly than broken studs) is the ridiculous air pressures
they inflate the tires to!!
I had my Reatta in there to switch out some tires and they put at least 45 psi in them.
It rode harder than an unloaded dump truck going down a gravel road. Needless to say,
when I got home I took out a good 15 lbs out of each tire. The tire monkeys MUST be
following the side of the tire (the maximum rating) rather than simply opening the car door
and looking at the Mfg ID sticker/plate.
Kit

I have trouble with that door sticker tire pressure limit. The sticker fell off a long time ago. So the " max psi 55 lbs " on the tire is a limit, and not required? I was afraid 36psi might be too low. I put the steel wheels on after the last brake repair without a torque wrench ( couldn't find the torque wench to use it ), but I did use a round gauge with a readable face to determine the pressure. The pencil gauge gave the same reading, though.

[This message has been edited by heybjorn (edited 12-02-2013).]

Nope, not ASE certified... In fact, I've never taken an automotive course in my life. LOL.

On the tire pressure, I've always inflated to the tire manufacturer's specifications, not the vehicle manufacturer's specs. Unless I'm trail riding and need the tires to have more flex in them. Then again, I rarely run the size or type of tire recommended by the vehicle manufacturer so that probably makes a difference, too.

quote Originally posted by Rallaster: Nope, not ASE certified... In fact, I've never taken an automotive course in my life. LOL. On the tire pressure, I've always inflated to the tire manufacturer's specifications, not the vehicle manufacturer's specs. Unless I'm trail riding and need the tires to have more flex in them. Then again, I rarely run the size or type of tire recommended by the vehicle manufacturer so that probably makes a difference, too.

I have always done the opposite.. i go by what the car says.

As far as the actual topic, i normally would take the lug nuts back off after getting tires done and put them back on myself, with a torque wrench. If one breaks i go back and complain to the shop.

quote Originally posted by Rallaster: Nope, not ASE certified... In fact, I've never taken an automotive course in my life. LOL. On the tire pressure, I've always inflated to the tire manufacturer's specifications, not the vehicle manufacturer's specs. Unless I'm trail riding and need the tires to have more flex in them. Then again, I rarely run the size or type of tire recommended by the vehicle manufacturer so that probably makes a difference, too.

That is a bad idea, using the top limit of the tire manufacturers pressure rating to fill your tires. while it is still within the specs of the tire it doesn't give any variable to a hot day or after running at high speeds. Hey don't get me wrong, I am not an ASE certified tech, I hate those guys, but that's a story for another place.

Anyway the manufacturers specs are more for comfort and a balance between a hard ride and soft ride, you can go above and below those decal specs to get your own preferred ride for the road conditions. just ask the tire guy here avengador1. you own or run a tire store right? there are lots of reasons for not going with the manufacturers specs, but that is mostly for personal reasons and conditions and a personal choice, under no circumstances should you go over the tire manufacturers recommended pressures. that is what causes blowouts and other things. right avengador1? As well as going way to low can cause it.

as you drive tire pressures increase because they get hotter, if the temp gets hotter during the day the pressure will increase, all not good, while a higher pressure will give you better mileage, I believe it is not always the best idea.

Hey I'm just going by what 40 years of driving and working on cars but what do I know, I have pissed more people off here than most. but I do know a few things.

quote Originally posted by Nurb432: I have always done the opposite.. i go by what the car says. As far as the actual topic, i normally would take the lug nuts back off after getting tires done and put them back on myself, with a torque wrench. If one breaks i go back and complain to the shop.

Best idea I know to make sure they are correctly torqued to manufacturers for the wheels you have mounted, because you can change the rims when you own a car, that can change the proper torque as well, I think as far as if you change from steel rims to aluminum or anything else. there are many variables when it comes to tires and wheels and lug nut torque.

Steve

[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 12-02-2013).]

You can inflate the tires to the sidewall pressure ratings but you will get a harsh ride and wear out the center of the thread more quickly. The maximum inflation rating is used when you are carrying the maximum load weight your vehicle is rated for. There is a built in factor of safety, but you are really pushing it's limits if you are at maximum load and pressure. It also is a bad idea to do this with tires that are beginning to show signs of dry rot and are more than five years old. Tires like that need to be replaced. They also need to be replaced if they have 3/32" or less of thread left. These tires will hydroplane during wet conditions and won't grip on snow.
The TIA (Tire Industry Association) recommends that tires be inflated to the door placard, even if you change the wheels or tire size. If you don't have a tire placard on the door jam refer to your owner's manual. If that is missing there is always the internet.

[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 12-02-2013).]

quote Originally posted by avengador1: The maximum inflation rating is used when you are carrying the maximum load weight your vehicle is rated for.

Slight but important technical correction: The maximum inflation rating is used when you are carrying the maximum load weight your vehicle the tire is rated for. Maximum rated tire load => use maximum rated tire pressure.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 12-03-2013).]

Also the pressure is set when the tire is cool.

On the torque, I've never understood how a dry reading can be accurate. Other torque specs mention the weight of oil used to lube the threads makes a difference in the torque. But lug nuts are never oiled.

quote Originally posted by avengador1: The correct way to use an impact gun is to use torque sticks and then a torque wrench. Over tightening the studs can cause the studs to break, make it difficult to remove the lug nuts and can also warp the rotors. Turning the pressure down on the impact gun is not the answer. The lug nuts need to be properly torqued. This is a constant battle most shop owners face with their mechanics and is all about the human nature of being lazy. Most say they don't have the time to do it correctly, I say make the time. I don't want any of my customers injured because of the mechanic's laziness.

Never gave the rotor warpage a second thought as to the lugs being too tight. I always use an [air] impact gun. I guess I'll start using the torque wrench. After I have my front rotors turned this week.

Thanx again, PFF

quote Originally posted by spark1: ... I've never understood how a dry [torque] reading can be accurate.

On clean, dry threads it can be accurate within +/- 30% ... but we all know that wheel studs are almost never clean. Unfortunately, torque is the only convenient metric we have available, but it's good enough in practice. It's still better and more repeatable than the "armstrong" method.

In practice, I try to wipe the threads of the studs with a shop rag and then brush on a small amount of anti-seize compound, and I always use a torque wrench for the final tightening.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 12-03-2013).]

quote Originally posted by spark1: Also the pressure is set when the tire is cool. On the torque, I've never understood how a dry reading can be accurate. Other torque specs mention the weight of oil used to lube the threads makes a difference in the torque. But lug nuts are never oiled.

When ever I change or remove tires I clean the threads with a rag and then put some Neverseize on them before remounting. Not sure if that is the right thing to do but I have never had a lug nut come off on its own or not come off when I needed to change a tire. I have had them so seized when I didn't do that so bad that I had to put a pipe on the X wrench in order to get them off. just the way things have happened to me, especially when a tire store just put them on with an impact gun or aluminum rims and steel lug nuts have a reaction to each other.

I also use Neverseize on trailer ball threads before I put them on or you can never get those suckers back off, Even with a torch.

Steve

[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 12-03-2013).]

I use anti-seize on my studs too. There is a formula to determine a corrected torque figure if a lubricant is used, because it is easier to over tighten the lug nuts when doing so.
http://www.mechanicsupport.com/bolt_torque.html

quote Originally posted by avengador1: There is a formula to determine a corrected torque figure if a lubricant is used, because it is easier to over tighten the lug nuts when doing so.

That's an important point, because even though anti-seize compound isn't really a lubricant it does reduce the torque required to achieve the desired level of fastener preload. Most anti-seize manufacturers include the "K-Factor" (a.k.a. Torque Coefficient) in their published specifications. The K-Factor is a measure of the friction in a threaded fastener, and it varies with fastener materials, thread condition, and any material present on the threads. A typical K-Factor for clean and dry steel threads ranges from ~0.18 to ~0.22, while the K-Factor published for standard-grade Never-Seez applied to steel threads is ~0.13 ... ~30% to 40% lower. In practice, I usually reduce the torque applied by ~25% from the "clean and dry" value when I apply Never-Seez to threads, and I always use a torque wrench.

N.B. Anti-seize, thread sealant, or thread locker should always be used when a joint involves dissimilar metals ... e.g. a steel screw inserted into a tapped hole in an alloy casting ... to prevent corrosion, but using the full "clean and dry thread" torque value is a good way to pull the threads right out of an aluminum casting when using an anti-seize compound. Always check carefully to see what thread condition (e.g. dry, lubricated, sealant, anti-seize, etc), if any, is specified for a fastener screwed into a tapped casting; the published torque spec requires the specified thread conditions.

FWIW, I have never had a properly-torqued fastener or wheel stud loosen in service when using anti-seize compound on the threads ... except in a poorly-designed joint that can rotate around the fastener (e.g. the "long bolt" through the rear knuckle in the '88 Fiero rear suspension).

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 12-03-2013).]

I get very long tire life on everything. They always wear evenly across the tread. I run 40-45 pnds in everything except the motorhome. It gets 90 psi on 19.5x6. Id never run 30 pnds on anything other than my lawn tractor.

quote Originally posted by heybjorn: What is a torque wrench? I have always used the lug wrench until I couldn't move it. Okay for steel wheels, but I suppose alloy wheels should be torqued to a specific level?

I used to do similarly. Was apparently fine with old cars. I learned from someone much wiser than myself that my warped brake rotor symptoms came from me not torquing my lug nuts properly. Even steel wheels need torqued properly. Usually 100 ft lbs. Ever since then i torque them.