http://money.cnn.com/2012/0...?hpt=hp_t3&hpt=hp_c1

quote Doctors in America are harboring an embarrassing secret: Many of them are going broke. This quiet reality, which is spreading nationwide, is claiming a wide range of casualties, including family physicians, cardiologists and oncologists. Industry watchers say the trend is worrisome. Half of all doctors in the nation operate a private practice. So if a cash crunch forces the death of an independent practice, it robs a community of a vital health care resource.

Read the rest at the link.

Do you ever post anything other than pasted links?

Also why don’t you ever give your own opinion about the topics you post?

Just wondering if the only reason you post this stuff is to increase your post count or what?

Steve

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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.

Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

I have yet to find a doctor who doesn't have more money than me.

If they can't keep their business open, then they need someone to run it, as they don't have the skills. They may be a good doctor, but not a good business person.

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: I have yet to find a doctor who doesn't have more money than me.

That's all anyone seems to care about - if someone else has more money than they do.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 01-06-2012).]

quote Do you ever post anything other than pasted links?

Would you be aware of this story if I hadn't posted it?

Maybe doctors should stop living outside their means then....

quote Originally posted by Formula88: That's all anyone seems to care about - if someone else has more money than they do.

Ah.. it is a comparison.... but try to twist it around, like you normally do. Sigh... typical. I don't care how much money they have or don't have, but to complain about going broke is just a lie, plain and simple. Maybe they have to sell the multi-million dollar house and maybe they can't take that trip to Africa this year. Boo-hoo... When they start to make a decision about food vs mortgage or heat, then we have something to talk about. Otherwise, they just don't know how to run a business.

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: Maybe doctors should stop living outside their means then....

Wait, are you suggesting even people well above the normal or poverty level should have to be accountable and responsible with their money? O.o

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: Maybe doctors should stop living outside their means then....

I'm sure they will. They'll close up shop and do something else.

quote Originally posted by ls3mach: Wait, are you suggesting even people well above the normal or poverty level should have to be accountable and responsible with their money? O.o

I know it is a hard concept to believe in but that is what is going to have to happen....

quote Originally posted by Formula88: I'm sure they will. They'll close up shop and do something else.

And another doctor will see the need, expand or open a new business, hire more employees and still make a profit.

This happens every day in the business world. Capitalism.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: I'm sure they will. They'll close up shop and do something else.

Then their wives will leave them and the divorce rate can be blamed out Health Care Reform.....Circle of Life.....

quote Originally posted by avengador1: Would you be aware of this story if I hadn't posted it?

Do you really think that non of us watch or read the news so much that we need you to post links to stories we have already read?

Now something unusual and out of the ordinary yes some might like to see that.

You really need to find a job.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.

Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

I know of a person who was in the health profession (not a doctor mind you), but this person was charging insurance and medicare for unnecessary services. This person was finally hauled into court and found guilty. The business closed up, but the patients just switched to another office. This person had a very nice house, multiple cars, traveled around the globe. But couldn't live within his/her means and tried to work the system to make life better for him/her self.

(Yes, keeping this person's identity vague, as this person had good intentions, but got caught up in the riches).

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: I have yet to find a doctor who doesn't have more money than me. If they can't keep their business open, then they need someone to run it, as they don't have the skills. They may be a good doctor, but not a good business person.

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: Ah.. it is a comparison.... but try to twist it around, like you normally do. Sigh... typical. I don't care how much money they have or don't have, but to complain about going broke is just a lie, plain and simple. Maybe they have to sell the multi-million dollar house and maybe they can't take that trip to Africa this year. Boo-hoo... When they start to make a decision about food vs mortgage or heat, then we have something to talk about. Otherwise, they just don't know how to run a business.

quote And another doctor will see the need, expand or open a new business, hire more employees and still make a profit. This happens every day in the business world. Capitalism.

Awesome. Yeah I have a hard time finding the sympathy when one overnight observation costs me over $2500 out of pocket. Boo hoo.

[This message has been edited by tbone42 (edited 01-06-2012).]

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: Then their wives will leave them and the divorce rate can be blamed out Health Care Reform.....Circle of Life.....

You're trying too hard. Don't pull a troll muscle.
I'm sure most will find lucrative employment elsewhere. It's not like most doctors will close up shop and end up working a Wal-Mart greeter. A large portion will probably just retire. The ones still working will be the younger, less experiened docs who can't afford to retire yet, and they'll bail out if they find someting better outside of practice.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: You're trying too hard. Don't pull a troll muscle. I'm sure most will find lucrative employment elsewhere. It's not like most doctors will close up shop and end up working a Wal-Mart greeter. A large portion will probably just retire. The ones still working will be the younger, less experiened docs who can't afford to retire yet, and they'll bail out if they find someting better outside of practice.

Damn you have it all figured out...Why are you on here wasting your time and not stepping up with your knowledge and working to correct the problem...Now if doctors lose their jobs, get divorced and have to be Home Depot greeters it will all be on you...Why because you wasted your time on here instead of taking you ideas to the top...Way to go.....

quote Originally posted by avengador1: Would you be aware of this story if I hadn't posted it?

What was the question he asked you?

quote Originally posted by maryjane: He's previously stated that he thinks he's doing a great service because some people here don't have access to the news. uh, yeah--right.....

Geez, who has the internet but no access to the news?

Did anyone actually read the article?

quote Pentz said recent steep 35% to 40% cuts in Medicare reimbursements for key cardiovascular services, such as stress tests and echocardiograms, have taken a substantial toll on revenue. "Our total revenue was down about 9% last year compared to 2010," he said. "These cuts have destabilized private cardiology practices," he said. "A third of our patients are on Medicare. So these Medicare cuts are by far the biggest factor. Private insurers follow Medicare rates. So those reimbursements are going down as well." Pentz is thinking about an out. "If this continues, I might seriously consider leaving medicine," he said. "I can't keep working this way." Also on his mind, the impending 27.4% Medicare pay cut for doctors. "If that goes through, it will put us under," he said.

quote In oncology, doctors were allowed to profit from drug sales. So doctors would buy expensive cancer drugs at bulk prices from drugmakers and then sell them at much higher prices to their patients. "I grew up in that system. I was spending $1.5 million a month on buying treatment drugs," he said. In 2005, Medicare revised the reimbursement guidelines for cancer drugs, which effectively made reimbursements for many expensive cancer drugs fall to less than the actual cost of the drugs. "Our reimbursements plummeted," Barth said. Still, Barth continued to push ahead with innovative research, treating patients with cutting-edge expensive therapies, accepting patients who were underinsured only to realize later that insurers would not pay him back for much of his care. "I was $3.2 million in debt by mid 2010," said Barth. "It was a sickening feeling. I could no longer care for patients with catastrophic illnesses without scrutinizing every penny first."

quote Dr. Mike Gorman, a family physician in Logandale, Nev., recently took out an SBA loan to keep his practice running and pay his five employees. "It is embarrassing," he said. "Doctors don't want to talk about being in debt." But he's planning a new strategy to deal with his rising business expenses and falling reimbursements. "I will see more patients, but I won't check all of their complaints at one time," he explained. "If I do, insurance will bundle my reimbursement into one payment." Patients will have to make repeat visits -- an arrangement that he acknowledges is "inconvenient." "This system pits doctor against patient," he said. "But it's the only way to beat the system and get paid."

The system is broken. The doctors that are struggling have not adapted to the new system, Obamacare. When they do, don't be surprised when your level of survice drops and your healthcare options evaporate.

As long as it's not the Doctors who's houses I work on, such is life.

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: Did anyone actually read the article? The system is broken. The doctors that are struggling have not adapted to the new system, Obamacare. When they do, don't be surprised when your level of survice drops and your healthcare options evaporate.

Yes, service will drop when this happens, but I also bet we will see some businesses take advantage of it and make it work. I am not a fan of Obamacare, either.

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: Actually, yes, I read this a few days ago (not trying to be sarcastic... but yeah... I did catch it in the news)

quote Originally posted by maryjaneMost people do. Avengador1 has a problem understanding that everyone else has at least the same capability that he has. He's previously stated that he thinks he's doing a great service because some people here don't have access to the news.

That's funny. I didn't see anyone else post this story or discuss it. It's also funny how some imply that everyone else has already seen this story. Wouldn't it take a psychic to know that information? I know I ain't one, so I wouldn't make a statement like that. Carry on oh great, all seeing, Jambis of the forum.

Doctors going broke

I don’t see how. I just paid over $350 bucks to have one tooth pulled and an X Ray at the dentist the other day so I call this one BS.
When I had my stroke in 04 paid over $200 for a 15 min visit to see my GP and he had a waiting room full of other people waiting to see him or one of the other doctors in the practice.
Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.

Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 01-06-2012).]

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: Do you really think that non of us watch or read the news so much that we need you to post links to stories we have already read? Now something unusual and out of the ordinary yes some might like to see that. You really need to find a job. Steve

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Most people do. Avengador1 has a problem understanding that everyone else has at least the same capability that he has. He's previously stated that he thinks he's doing a great service because some people here don't have access to the news. uh, yeah--right.....

I personally have no issues whatsoever with Avengador's posts. At the very least they spur discussion.

Please keep in mind that both of you do not speak for the entire forum.


Brad

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: Time for a new GP man, I pay $40.00 without insurance, and that's 7 years after you were paying $200 bucks :0 I don't get how some people get by with all the wasteful spending around. Brad

There is an idea. GPs should post their fee structure (like in a auto shop) on the wall, so you can compare prices.

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: There is an idea. GPs should post their fee structure (like in a auto shop) on the wall, so you can compare prices.

Heh, I thought there was a website around somewhere that had that information. Could be an app for that.

Out here in the country people tend to talk, we hear about all the Vets that overcharge, Doctors that overcharge, etc. etc. yet they "allow" the grocery stores to charge double that of the ones in the city.

We will run a vet out of business because they charge 5 bucks more than the other ones for fixing Spot, but we are willing to pay through the teeth for groceries because "you pay for the convenience."

Brad

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: Someone else will buy the house and require your services.

True, but thankfully the Doctor I do most of my work for doesn't rely solely upon his hospital income. He deversified and owns about 35 high dollar lots around his home that he is selling off. Alot of the work I do is on those lots and other property he has there that hasn't been subdivided for sale yet. He also owns a vacation home in Grand Cayman that gains him vacation rental income. Smart guy who doesn't piss his money away. Heck his wife shops at the dollar store. So really I'm not worried.

Well my primary car physician has her office to support, at least two nurses, a PA and three office staff to manage the bookeeping, the office rent plus the equipment etc. She is maybe 40 years old and still paying off school loans. Just dealing with insurance issues I can imagine are a nightmare.

She has a old VW beetle (Herbie clone) which she and her husband restored.

I believe the government buracracy would drive them out of business and Obamacare would make it all much worse. I suspect those leaning to the socialist movement in the US today want to restrict what anyone can earn in their jobs. So just list out a pay scale for all as to how much those profession can be allowed the earn.

Walmart shelf stocker...$50,000
Fireman $50,000
Policeman $50,000
Bank of America CEO $50,000
Nancy Pelosi $50,000
Trash Collector $50,000
Neurosugeon $50,000

The socialists will be happy as everyone is equal.

[This message has been edited by Old Lar (edited 01-06-2012).]

A lot of nonsense being thrown around here. Isn't it easy to cheer for the plight of those you consider more fortunate than you?


84fiero123 paid $200 for some kind of a visit. OK. If another person sitting next to you was seen for the same thing and had medicare, the doctor would have got about $70. And a person on medicaid, the doctor would have got about $40.

In fact, that is why you paid $200. Because an efficient doctor's office will LOSE money providing care for the medicaid patient, will make a tiny profit on the medicare one.


I have to pay over $100 just to get my plumber to my door. Is the $200 THAT unreasonable for the number of visits required in a year? Up to you to decide.


The tuition at Medical College of Wisconsin will be $45,000 per year this year. That's times 4 years. The AVERAGE medical student debt coming out is over $120,000.


Now the plan to save the healthcare system is to cut doctor reimbursement as the article states. OK. Many students can't really pay back their loans with what a typical pediatrician or family practice doctor makes. Lots won't go into general internal medicine, either.


It is the specialists that make the large incomes, not your general doctors.


So fine, cheer as they get driven out of practice. I can take care of myself. Can you?

"oh, they aren't going to go out of practice. They just need to be smarter businessmen."

Yeah. Here is what a smart business man will do. I have a certain fixed expense. I get paid less. I am going to have to put more UNITS through.

Enjoy your shorter office visits that don't give time to accomplish much, and enjoy being treated like a UNIT instead of a person.

You'll talk big now about boo hoo, let it happen. When your health hits the fan, you will be singing a different tune. Not that it will matter at that point.

I don't receive Medicare, or Medicare. That's a rumor I'd rather not get started.

I do pay $40 dollars per office visit to my GP, less if I am just going for a medication refill.

The prices are set through the local hospital that the doctors are tied in through somehow.

Brad

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: I don't receive Medicare, or Medicare. That's a rumor I'd rather not get started. I do pay $40 dollars per office visit to my GP, less if I am just going for a medication refill. The prices are set through the local hospital that the doctors are tied in through somehow. Brad

I wasn't aiming at you and making any implication that you were on medicaid.

In Wisconsin I think I get paid $35 for a 15 minute medicaid visit.

So let's say I do 4 visits an hour for 8 hours per day, 5 days per week, 50 weeks per year.

Over head in that kind of practice would usually be about 60% for an efficient office.

That would be a whopping $112,000 per year to take home. With $120,000 in debt, paid over 10 years, the monthly payment would be, I don't know, $1000 per month.

I'm not saying you have to feel sorry for doctors. But several of you seemed pretty gleeful about what is happening.

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: I wasn't aiming at you and making any implication that you were on medicaid. In Wisconsin I think I get paid $35 for a 15 minute medicaid visit. So let's say I do 4 visits an hour for 8 hours per day, 5 days per week, 50 weeks per year. Over head in that kind of practice would usually be about 60% for an efficient office. That would be a whopping $112,000 per year to take home. With $120,000 in debt, paid over 10 years, the monthly payment would be, I don't know, $1000 per month. I'm not saying you have to feel sorry for doctors. But several of you seemed pretty gleeful about what is happening.

It's all good, I'm not gleeful at all about doctors going broke. If I was more driven and could stomach the gory side of it I would be a doctor....I'd have lot be a lot more driven than I currently am.

I think all types of insurance (while helpful on one hand) has destroyed the doctor. That and frivolous law suits.

Brad

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: The prices are set through the local hospital that the doctors are tied in through somehow.

In your situation, the hospitals "own" the doctors. The doctor's office is charging what they charge because they are being used by the hospital as a "loss leader". The physician's are being used as "cheap" labor. In your scenario, the hospitals are the ones that are making a lot of money. Just for your info.

If a doctor can't make a good living at his/her business, then they should work for someone else. No shame in that. And frankly I don't care about how much they spent to become a doctor, their choice. As I said before, I don't know of any poor docs. They make a good living, and many go on to be millionaires. Great for them, but time to understand that people can't afford their services.

quote Originally posted by jaskispyder: If a doctor can't make a good living at his/her business, then they should work for someone else. No shame in that. And frankly I don't care about how much they spent to become a doctor, their choice. As I said before, I don't know of any poor docs. They make a good living, and many go on to be millionaires. Great for them, but time to understand that people can't afford their services.

You don't know of any poor docs. Yes. That is the point of the article. You don't know of any NOW.

You are GOING to start knowing them.

I don't expect you to care how they spend to become a doctor, either. I don't expect you to care how much Walgreens spent to buy the property to build on, either.

In both situations, they will TRY to roll as much as they can of the expense into their charges.


"Go work for someone else". That would be the hospitals. In the current system, THEY are the ones that are being paid large amounts of money, and have the money to "buy doctors".

That's fine. It just reduces your choice. It reduces the doctor's choice in how to practice, how to treat people, how many to see an hour.


People can think if that is a good thing or a bad thing.

Others, instead of thinking whether it is a good thing or a bad thing, will say, essentially, all doctors are rich. If they can't make it, that is their fault. Go work for someone else. They are over paid anyway. I don't like how much I have to pay to see them.


Makes you feel good to get back at people you perceive at privileges. Thinking really doesn't.