quote Originally posted by tbone42: Well, politically, if you dont subscribe to the majority opinion around here, hostile exchanges is usually all you get when you voice an alternate opinion... even in a humble way. <snip>

Which is precisely why I asked in PM as opposed to open forum, and as I said before, specifically stated that I wasn't interested in an argument or to try and convert him. I had no ulterior motives other than pure curiosity. Perhaps he just had no interest in indulging me, which would have been fine as well. But he never said that, he just ignored me, which ultimately is also OK, I just found it confusing that he seems to go to such lengths to tell us how wrong we are, and yet refused the opportunity to have a one on one dialog about it. You can draw your own conclusions as to why.

quote Originally posted by 8-P: being presented against actual arguments from a legitimate journalist and a Harvard professor.

So because it was "research" done by a Harvard professor presented by a legitimate journalist, then you give it credibility when if it wasn't for those facts, everything about the "research" and article itself is SO OBVIOUSLY flimsy and biased?

As I said, I'm not even a tea party member nor defender. But the presentation of the article and the comments of the professors was SO ridiculous, THEY destroyed their credibility.

Harvard and Notre Dame should be EMBARRASSED by those two.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: Which is precisely why I asked in PM as opposed to open forum, and as I said before, specifically stated that I wasn't interested in an argument or to try and convert him. I had no ulterior motives other than pure curiosity. Perhaps he just had no interest in indulging me, which would have been fine as well. But he never said that, he just ignored me, which ultimately is also OK, I just found it confusing that he seems to go to such lengths to tell us how wrong we are, and yet refused the opportunity to have a one on one dialog about it. You can draw your own conclusions as to why.

I've tried to engage Neptune in decent conversation and debate on more than one occasion. I asked straightforward, reasonable questions. He doesn't answer or discuss. That seems to be his way of operating. He usually shows up in mid-to-late thread, makes a smartass comment, and leaves. His posting of this article is actually somewhat out of character for him. At least it is an article quoting a study, rather than just a smartass liberal piece. I don't think you can draw too many conclusions from a poll sampling of 3,000, and the author of the study says as much, but I'll give credit for actually *trying* to post something of substance, even though I question his motives.

quote Originally posted by tbone42: I mean, calling someone "inneptune", and a host of other insults, you actually think he is gonna just sadle up and respond the way you want him to? He has, after all, been insulted so many times, why would he want to cooperate with anyone on "their side"..?

I hear what your saying, I never expect NEPTUNE to "saddle up", and he can fully expect that I, among others will never "saddle up" either. This is the game he plays, he insults, and back handedly puts down anything opposite of his opinion. He does this way more than it's done to him, and then pretends to be the victom. He rarely ever back's up anything he starts. I find him to be almost 180 degrees opposite of yourself. I find that you, and I disagree more than we agree politically, but your are civil, and intelligent, and try to back up what you say, and only get nasty when you have been treated in the same manner. I like you a lot. Whereas, until NEPTUNE grows up, I have no patience for him. I also love your history post. Now that I'm done sucking up up to you, maybe you will at least know where I'm coming from.

Jim

^^^^^ Very true. Particularly the part about playing the victim. He has a tendency to draw first blood, usually not just insulting one person, but an entire group, and then when they all essentially respond individually to his snide remarks, he acts as if he's being ganged up on. It's akin to walking through Harlem yelling n****r at the top of your lungs, and then wondering why you suddenly have twenty guys kicking your ass.

Tbone,
While I understand (to a certain extent) where you're coming from as far as opportunity, I don't agree that there isn't opportunity for folks from either side of the tracks. We all relate to our own circumstances. I was also born to and reared by far less than wealthy parents. But, talent, work ethic and intelligence are not limited by what side of the tracks you grew up on. There is no doubt having the advantages you discussed will help anyone get ahead. All of my friends growing up were in similar circumstances to mine. Some did well, some didn't. The difference I see is how they applied what talents they had and took advantage of those few opportunities that did come by or, those they were willing to move for. We all have opportunities that we don't take up. Some for good reasons, some for not such good reasons. I've done reasonably well compared to many and not as well as some. Many of my friends stayed where they were by their own choice and had to live with the consequences of that decision, some did something about their circumstances and succeeded, some tried and failed. But, that doesn't mean I hold any grudge against those that had it easier than I. I'm not rich and this ecomony has hurt my financial situation more than anyone here knows but, that doesn't mean I expect anyone to hold my hand and provide for me or my family. That and they are my responisibility not the taxpayer's.

This is not intended as any kind of flame toward you.

------------------
Ron

quote Originally posted by tbone42: I believe people slanted toward liberalism have their opinions mostly because of social injustice and want change. Thats fine if you are born with a silver spoon, or luck out and get a good opportunity at education or jobs. So liberals probably believe more in social justice because they witnessed the lack of it growing up. This is not being a crybaby, this is noting that some have opportunities to get a running start based on their parents providence, but MANY do not. After watching my mom and grandma die because of negligence combined with the unwillingness of insurance companies to help those who pay big money in premiums every year, you're damn right I voted for Obama and health care reform. I do not identify completely with either side, but I know where Neptune is coming from. The fact is, he linked a story he thought was valid, I knew some, from the other side of the tracks, who had the opportunity to be lawyers, doctors, politicians... just because they were born wealthy. Say what you may about it, but its quite a springboard that most dont get.

I appreciate the time you took to present your ideas.


Neptune linked a story he thought was valid. I TOLD him I appreciated him posting it and found it interesting. However, I posted what I thought were the rather obvious problems with the analysis. I gave him an opportunity to respond to that. Nothing. OK. His choice.


Regarding liberals who see injustice and want change, that is really an accusation (not saying intentional) against conservatives that they either don't see social injustice, or don't care and actually WANT social injustice.

And it isn't true. Conservatives see injustice. They just generally accept it as a fact of life (as in, no duh, life is NEVER going to be "fair"), and factor that into life's equation, and tell people to find a way to succeed anyway.


You unfortunately reveal much of your explanation. "You are born with a silver spoon or luck out..."

I don't think you mean ANYTHING bad by saying that. But I cannot describe to you how personally insulting statements like that are. Obama parroted it over and over in the campaign, to the point where MY OWN CHILDREN were insulted FOR ME. "Dad, you never had a silver spoon given to you, and you didn't 'win life's lottery' like Obama is saying."

They knew I was born to very lower middle class parents. They knew my dad was a drunk and non-functioning father from when I was 10 years old on, and he was dead when I was 16. They know I worked FIFTY hours a week DURING THE SCHOOL YEAR in high school from sophomore year on. They know I paid my way through 5 years of pharmacy school and 4 years of medical school. They know I worked 110 hours per week in residency training.

And so when they hear talk like silver spoon and luck, it doesn't much match with their dad's life experience. And it upsets them when his success is attributed to that.

I went to medical school with A LOT of those people. Well, so? What was I supposed to do? I could spend my time trying to make things socially equal, or I could take advantage of the OPPORTUNITIES, and give it a shot. They had the springboard. I didn't. Oh well.
I don't have any attitude of saying this to jump on you. This isn't one of those "hate" responses.


The issue is social injustice. Some want to try to make the futile attempt to make things equal. Others know it can't be done, and just focus on taking OPPORTUNITIES.

I appreciate the candid opinions here.. I will be gone for a day or two camping and fishing, then I will come back and engage those who respectfully engaged me, even if to tell me they thought I was wrong.

The people who have already told me they respect my opinion or whatever, I pretty much expected that from most of you who did. Just not enough time to read all who have posted... so give me a couple days, I will be back from my fishing, and we can further discuss. I am always open and willing to do so, and no one is "kissing my butt" here.

I will say this that I noticed.. with the amount of hateful posts towards libs in thread title and body of text (at a much higher rate) in OT posts , and I certainly could link them.. - anyhow, I was very surprised to see how many people saw this post, in kind back at them, and were shocked and offended to see it. The door DOES swing both ways, and those that would be critical should not be shocked to see posts negatively aimed towards their political affiliation. Two way street, and I think more of us (at risk of sounding like Jazzman, who is 100% right about this) could increase the civility here. Last I checked, we were mostly all Americans, not puppet on the strings of the politicians.

I almost left O/T two weeks ago for that very reason, but I am here to discuss if it stays civil.

Will be back, probably Sunday.

[This message has been edited by tbone42 (edited 08-19-2011).]

quote Originally posted by tbone42: I I will be gone for a day or two camping and fishing

Have a great time.

I'm not a camper or fisherman, but a couple of weeks ago I was in Colorado hiking. We have a beautiful country. Glad you are going to get a chance to enjoy it.

quote Originally posted by tbone42: I will be gone for a day or two camping and fishing, ...

Have fun and good luck. I'll be gone also, in Corpus Christi, till Sunday (but will be able maybe to post).
That said ... "social (in)justice" ? Can anyone be a victim ? Where is the social justice in fishing ?

I like you Lobe, I really do.

And I'd like to take your comments a step further to show the other side of the same argument-

I wasn't born with a silver spoon. I also happen to be a person who hasn't ever experienced a great deal of professional or financial success in my life. I was sold a bad choice for jobs in the Navy and came out with no real world skills, no money in the bank, and few options. I took a job selling stereos in Kaufmann's department store. I did that for a while and then moved into some HVAC work. From there it was just sort of a string of jobs, nothing resembling a career. The bottom line is that even though I never had much, I always tried, and I *never* blamed anyone else, nor expected anyone else to take care of me. When I had a job, I was the best employee they could ever hope for, my work ethic was beyond contestation. And even though I live(d) with meager means, I still find it completely unfair and unreasonable that a person who has achieved success in their life should be forced by a domineering government to give me what I haven't earned for myself. I don't expect it, and I don't want it. I *know* why I haven't achieved "more", it's because as hard as I've worked, and as much as I've done I've made some other poor choices that have cost me. When other guys were going to school and getting a degree, I was skipping school, drinkin' beers and playing pool. When other guys were working at gas stations putting themselves through school I was spending my money on cars that I couldn't afford. When other guys were investing their money and preparing for their future, I was living for the day. That's not *their* fault, it's MINE, and I accept responsibility for it. Most of the successful people I know worked their asses off to get where they are, and I celebrate their success. Good for them, I wish I had made smarter choices, but I didn't, that doesn't mean those successful people have ANY responsibility to pick up the pieces from my bad choices.
I made bad choices, so guess what? Instead of whining about how much other people make, I've started a business where those people can share their wealth with me in an honest way. At my age, a lot of guys are looking forward to retirement. Not me, I get up every morning at 6,and hit the shop at 8. I stick around until 6 and some nights, even until midnight or later. I don't ask for anything I don't earn, and I bet I give a lot more than I get, and that's OK, because instead of crying about how much money I *don't* have, I'm immensely grateful for what I do have. And I STRONGLY oppose any kind of legislation, taxation, or other program that steals money from those who are financially successful under the veil of propping up someone who has made poor choices. I believe that for the most part there are no victims, just volunteers. I don't like to admit that I screwed up in my life, but I have,and only *I* can fix it.

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: White men full of hate for those who are different than them, and who have a...slightly skewed view of the world. Thanks, guys.

Seriously Uranus, why do you insist on throwing the spaghetti at the wall when it just ain't sticking any more?

Enjoy the fishin T. I am not a fisherman, but we just came back from the Adirondacks, and I did quite a bit. My favorite fish is to catch is a Z. I would put the hook in the water, without bait, lean back in a chair, and then I would catch all the Z's I could handle.

Jim

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: I wasn't born with a silver spoon. I also happen to be a person who hasn't ever experienced a great deal of professional or financial success in my life. I was sold a bad choice for jobs in the Navy and came out with no real world skills, no money in the bank, and few options. I took a job selling stereos in Kaufmann's department store. I did that for a while and then moved into some HVAC work. From there it was just sort of a string of jobs, nothing resembling a career. The bottom line is that even though I never had much, I always tried, and I *never* blamed anyone else, nor expected anyone else to take care of me. When I had a job, I was the best employee they could ever hope for, my work ethic was beyond contestation. And even though I live(d) with meager means, I still find it completely unfair and unreasonable that a person who has achieved success in their life should be forced by a domineering government to give me what I haven't earned for myself. I don't expect it, and I don't want it. I *know* why I haven't achieved "more", it's because as hard as I've worked, and as much as I've done I've made some other poor choices that have cost me. When other guys were going to school and getting a degree, I was skipping school, drinkin' beers and playing pool. When other guys were working at gas stations putting themselves through school I was spending my money on cars that I couldn't afford. When other guys were investing their money and preparing for their future, I was living for the day. That's not *their* fault, it's MINE, and I accept responsibility for it. Most of the successful people I know worked their asses off to get where they are, and I celebrate their success. Good for them, I wish I had made smarter choices, but I didn't, that doesn't mean those successful people have ANY responsibility to pick up the pieces from my bad choices. I made bad choices, so guess what? Instead of whining about how much other people make, I've started a business where those people can share their wealth with me in an honest way. At my age, a lot of guys are looking forward to retirement. Not me, I get up every morning at 6,and hit the shop at 8. I stick around until 6 and some nights, even until midnight or later. I don't ask for anything I don't earn, and I bet I give a lot more than I get, and that's OK, because instead of crying about how much money I *don't* have, I'm immensely grateful for what I do have. And I STRONGLY oppose any kind of legislation, taxation, or other program that steals money from those who are financially successful under the veil of propping up someone who has made poor choices. I believe that for the most part there are no victims, just volunteers. I don't like to admit that I screwed up in my life, but I have,and only *I* can fix it.

I'm pretty sure I love you.
I would be proud to stand beside you in work or play.
If I was just a little more like you, you would be describing me, perfectly.
And maybe then what you wrote would sting me a little less.

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 08-19-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: I like you Lobe, I really do. And I'd like to take your comments a step further to show the other side of the same argument- I wasn't born with a silver spoon. I also happen to be a person who hasn't ever experienced a great deal of professional or financial success in my life. I was sold a bad choice for jobs in the Navy and came out with no real world skills, no money in the bank, and few options. I took a job selling stereos in Kaufmann's department store. I did that for a while and then moved into some HVAC work. From there it was just sort of a string of jobs, nothing resembling a career. The bottom line is that even though I never had much, I always tried, and I *never* blamed anyone else, nor expected anyone else to take care of me. When I had a job, I was the best employee they could ever hope for, my work ethic was beyond contestation. And even though I live(d) with meager means, I still find it completely unfair and unreasonable that a person who has achieved success in their life should be forced by a domineering government to give me what I haven't earned for myself. I don't expect it, and I don't want it. I *know* why I haven't achieved "more", it's because as hard as I've worked, and as much as I've done I've made some other poor choices that have cost me. When other guys were going to school and getting a degree, I was skipping school, drinkin' beers and playing pool. When other guys were working at gas stations putting themselves through school I was spending my money on cars that I couldn't afford. When other guys were investing their money and preparing for their future, I was living for the day. That's not *their* fault, it's MINE, and I accept responsibility for it. Most of the successful people I know worked their asses off to get where they are, and I celebrate their success. Good for them, I wish I had made smarter choices, but I didn't, that doesn't mean those successful people have ANY responsibility to pick up the pieces from my bad choices. I made bad choices, so guess what? Instead of whining about how much other people make, I've started a business where those people can share their wealth with me in an honest way. At my age, a lot of guys are looking forward to retirement. Not me, I get up every morning at 6,and hit the shop at 8. I stick around until 6 and some nights, even until midnight or later. I don't ask for anything I don't earn, and I bet I give a lot more than I get, and that's OK, because instead of crying about how much money I *don't* have, I'm immensely grateful for what I do have. And I STRONGLY oppose any kind of legislation, taxation, or other program that steals money from those who are financially successful under the veil of propping up someone who has made poor choices. I believe that for the most part there are no victims, just volunteers. I don't like to admit that I screwed up in my life, but I have,and only *I* can fix it.

Beautifully said.

It's why I write. Will I ever be a real novelist, where it pays the bills and set me up for retirement? Or will it just continue to be a "side job" that only pays enough to keep me doing it? I don't have wealth, and I didn't come from it. My mom (rest her soul) was a teenage pregnant mother/highschool drop out. I don't have a story, or anything interesting about me to make the books I write worth talking about as far as "human interest stories" go. But I keep writing, keep trying to live my dream.

Is it fair that people like Joe Hill (whose dad is some guy named Stephen King) have a free pass to writer-dom while I labor in obscurity? No, but so what? If my books are good (and so far the feedback is that the first one is), then eventually I will make it.

My favorite quote - and the one I live by - is this:

Persistence rewards talent.

Many liberals I know (not all of them) believe they were screwed by The System, and aren't looking to earn success, they would rather take it from those that have it. It isn't THEIR FAULT, or THEIR CHOICES that got them to where they are. Just my observations though.

Frankly, I think the only thing that separates us from the people who think they deserve some kind of handout is a willingness to admit to our mistakes.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: Frankly, I think the only thing that separates us from the people who think they deserve some kind of handout is a willingness to admit to our mistakes.

That's a good assessment.

I'd add "jealousy", along with a dose of a lack of integrity. They don't have it, so nobody else can. They see others having more than they do, and are simply willing to take it from them by whatever means necessary (including use of a government to take it).

All it takes is not owning up to your own mistakes, being jealous of others because they have more, and the lack in integrity to deal with your own shortcomings AND willingness to take what you haven't earned, and presto! Instant liberal socialist.

That may be true, and I guess we could add to the list a lack of respect, which really, thinking about it, is probably at the core of all the above. A person who lacks respect (which is a lot of people I think) is going to have no respect for themselves, which makes them incapable of having respect for anyone else. And they certainly aren't going to respect another person's property, or their hard work. And what's more, given they lack any kind of respect they don't appreciate the difference between earning something, and taking something from someone else. One will always appreciate something they earn more than they will something that is given.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: That may be true, and I guess we could add to the list a lack of respect, which really, thinking about it, is probably at the core of all the above. A person who lacks respect (which is a lot of people I think) is going to have no respect for themselves, which makes them incapable of having respect for anyone else. And they certainly aren't going to respect another person's property, or their hard work. And what's more, given they lack any kind of respect they don't appreciate the difference between earning something, and taking something from someone else. One will always appreciate something they earn more than they will something that is given.

Yes. Very good point.

We could probably boil a lot of stuff down to some very basic emotions, mental processes and personality traits. Perhaps "lack of respect" is the foundation for all the other crap, such as jealousy and lack of integrity.

Reminds me of "The Sedona Method". It's a way of clearing out unwanted thoughts and emotions that cause stress and can be holding you back from getting things done. There are layers of thoughts and emotions, and underneath it all are some VERY basic emotions on which everything else is built and can be broken down into. They are the four basic "wants" -

Wanting control.
Wanting approval.
Wanting security or safety.
Wanting separation and oneness.

A bit of a tangent, but the same basic idea, I think.

quote Originally posted by Flamberge: Many liberals I know (not all of them) believe they were screwed by The System, and aren't looking to earn success, they would rather take it from those that have it. It isn't THEIR FAULT, or THEIR CHOICES that got them to where they are. Just my observations though.

Funny; I don't know ANY liberals like that.
My friends all work. Usually pretty hard.

[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 08-20-2011).]

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: Funny; I don't know ANY liberals like that. My friends all work. Usually pretty hard.

Then *why* are you a liberal? And that's a sincere question.

[This message has been edited by fierobear (edited 08-20-2011).]

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Yes. Very good point. We could probably boil a lot of stuff down to some very basic emotions, mental processes and personality traits. Perhaps "lack of respect" is the foundation for all the other crap, such as jealousy and lack of integrity. Reminds me of "The Sedona Method". It's a way of clearing out unwanted thoughts and emotions that cause stress and can be holding you back from getting things done. There are layers of thoughts and emotions, and underneath it all are some VERY basic emotions on which everything else is built and can be broken down into. They are the four basic "wants" - Wanting control. Wanting approval. Wanting security or safety. Wanting separation and oneness. A bit of a tangent, but the same basic idea, I think.

Actually, you can really break all emotions down into two basic feelings: love and fear. Love will cultivate respect,kindness, concern, that sort of thing. Fear will cultivate jealousy, anger, disrespect, etc. I believe that whatever it is between those two basic emotions that serves to primarily propel us through life is what rules us, and we act accordingly.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: Actually, you can really break all emotions down into two basic feelings: love and fear. Love will cultivate respect,kindness, concern, that sort of thing. Fear will cultivate jealousy, anger, disrespect, etc. I believe that whatever it is between those two basic emotions that serves to primarily propel us through life is what rules us, and we act accordingly.

Quite possible. More of one than the other, and the person tips in one direction or another.

people reject what they do not understand. the reason the 'Tea party' is 'not popular' i because the basic idea was hijacked by Fox News and turned into their mouthpiece. The core became dis-enfranchised and drifted away.

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: Funny; I don't know ANY liberals like that. My friends all work. Usually pretty hard.

I didn't say they didn't work, Neptune. They just don't make the kind of money they thought they would at their age, or they aren't in the profession they thought they would be. I have an art degree, and know a A LOT of artists who feel just this way, and many of them honestly think it's the world that has screwed them out of being an artist for a living. They DO work hard at their day jobs, but it's not a satisfying work, because it isn't what they felt they were going to be doing.

I don't mean it as an insult, and I've always been respectful in our debates. My point was that - based on my experience - many liberals are upset that others have succeeded where they failed. And to be honest with you, so far I have failed too. But that doesn't stop me from trying, and I don't hate those who have succeeded.

Thank you for your reply.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: Actually, you can really break all emotions down into two basic feelings: love and fear. Love will cultivate respect,kindness, concern, that sort of thing. Fear will cultivate jealousy, anger, disrespect, etc. I believe that whatever it is between those two basic emotions that serves to primarily propel us through life is what rules us, and we act accordingly.

And between love and fear, which do you see more examples of on here?

Hard to believe, I know.
But I'm just not feeling the love.
I see a LOT of fear though.

------------------

Drive safely!

quote Originally posted by NEPTUNE: Hard to believe, I know. But I'm just not feeling the love. I see a LOT of fear though.

Love isn't always selfless. One has to have love of self, before they can have love for others. Just because one wants to preserve those things they have earned doesn't mean they have no love for others.

..OBAMAnation has Created the greatest fear since WW2,Obama has "Changed" destroyed the country ,I "hope" he does no more damage.Only the stupid are not afraid.
We are lucky Obama is a buffoon,,Imagine the damage if he was a Smart socialist/marxist
2012 will be an election slaughter of marxist zombie buffoons ,, Every mindless commie/democrat will vote Obama,Fortunately many Independents are teriified of marxist, Leninist OBAMANATION
& the 3 stooges Barrack,Nancy & Harry,yuk,yuk

..Im not cute ,but my cookies taste semi sweet, & a powerfull laxitive to knock the marxist crap out of your gut..

[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 08-20-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: Love isn't always selfless. One has to have love of self, before they can have love for others. Just because one wants to preserve those things they have earned doesn't mean they have no love for others.

Not to mention that "charity begins at home". It's difficult to help others if you are flat broke or in other need.

On a related note, how is forced redistribution of wealth considered "love"?

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Not to mention that "charity begins at home". It's difficult to help others if you are flat broke or in other need. On a related note, how is forced redistribution of wealth considered "love"?

Yeah, I started to say as well that I would really like to compare Lori's and my charitable contributions with his. I wonder how much of his paycheck goes towards charities, while he's so vehemently defending the redistribution of wealth to support entitlement programs.

quote Originally posted by jimbolaya: I find that you, and I disagree more than we agree politically, but your are civil, and intelligent, and try to back up what you say, and only get nasty when you have been treated in the same manner. Jim

Intelligent? heh.. I just know to answer "C" on most of the test questions.

But, you figured out my greatest "secret." Treat me with respect (as you always do) and I will ALWAYS be there for you, even if you think we are "enemies" in some regard. Mess with the bull, however, and I give you the horns. Its my version of the Golden Rule. Taught to me by my dear departed Mom.

My brother in law and I were talking after she passed away on New Years Day in 2003, and I was mad as hell about her medical car. To the point I was going to make it known to those that "cared" for her. He told me: "T, you are a lot like your Mom. You can be so nice. You will bend over backwards for those you love, and even break if you must. You will listen to any statement, any complaint, even about you, and you will regard it with respect and analyze your own actions in accordance to that complaint. And sometimes change when you realize, yeah you were wrong. But, the minute someone tries to mess with your family, or attack you, unfairly.. watch out. Then you are not so nice."

It is well, that a man married to my only sister, has such an accurate view of me. I happen to think he's one of the most dynamite guys anyone will ever meet. And he knows me, and knew my mother, WELL.

If God himself told me to act otherwise, I would not. I hold a torch for that woman, and emulate her anyway I can. She would be the first to give food to a hungry family, advice for the uncertain, and applause for those who achieve their goals, no matter how trivial. She was a veteran supporter, the national American Legion Women's Auxilary Poppy Chairman. She, and I, would stand out in the snow selling poppies for any donation at all, just to help disabled veterans. She would, and often did, go beyond the scope of human friendliness to help others, even strangers.

And she would be the first to tell you to **** off if already treated in kind. And then you were cut off. No forgiveness, no second chance. That's up to God, then. You should have been raised better, but thats not her (my) problem. And I (and she) will let you know, before taking our leave of your miserable presence, how lowly we think you are.

Neptune has never treated me unkindly in our interractions like some around here. Sometimes, people just dont agree. And he and I have disagreed before... but there is no button on my jacket that says "I'm a liberal, so even if we argue, we're buddies." Nor do I see a sign on any conservative here, just because they are conservatives, that says they deserve to be personally attacked for it. But, personal disrespect from any direction will, as you say, be met in kind.

More times than not, I see Neptune insult nobody personally, yet he is on the receiving end of personal insult for almost every post he makes. Does an insult against a group count as a personal insult? And because we identify with a political entity, does that mean we have to take any poke at that entity as a personal affront? Is it any wonder, then, when some around here espouse especially harsh anti-union sentiments and get nasty about it by making "they are all the same, greedy lazy etc" comment, I take that as a personal attack on my father and brother, who both work HARD at a job that is also a union job. Neptune makes fun of Republicans, sure, but I dont see it happen too many times where he says "Out of every 1000 Republicans, 999 are the lowest form of human life." But I recently saw that kind of statement about Union workers... and I STILL think its horseshit.

I think too much hate and vitriol gets put into political discussions around here, and I can point some fingers, but whats the point.? At the end of the day, those people have to live with their personal attacks, even if they were not warranted by an initial "salvo" from the other guy. Even a few right here in this thread by some that would consider theselves "thinkers", dont impress me with their contributions for I have never seen a post that was not hateful from them.

Its just not what I am about.

Anyhow, I caught zero fish. Still had a good time.

quote Originally posted by tbone42: More times than not, I see Neptune insult nobody personally, yet he is on the receiving end of personal insult for almost every post he makes. Does an insult against a group count as a personal insult? And because we identify with a political entity, does that mean we have to take any poke at that entity as a personal affront?

quote I take that as a personal attack on my father and brother, who both work HARD at a job that is also a union job.

You seem to have answered your own question.

You try to make it too simple. I am not surprised.

I spoke of me taking offense to a statement that said "All union workers are (insert derogatory statement here)" as an insult on my family, since saying "all" are (insert derogatory statement here), then that is a direct insult to all, including those I am related to. An insult to the integrity of my family. Had anyone said "The union is a scam, the union is dumb" Thats an opinion about Unions, the entity, not a statement about all individuals in a union. BIG difference.

In the case of Neptune's criticism of the methods/ideology/platform of a political party. He did not make a personal statement against you or anyone, only a criticism of a political party's platform, methods, and linked an article saying they are unpopular. Do you know the difference between personal insults and general criticisms? Had he said "All people who support tea party ideals are morons" then maybe you awould have more of a reason to take offense.

The problem you and a few others here have is you see someone being critical of the poltical party you identify with as some kind of a personal attack. Gee Bear, I did not know you ran for office... at least craft a few bills before you get mad and take it personal about someone saying the tea party is unpopular. If you actually DID something in government to take a criticism of it personally, then you would definitely have more of a reason to do so. Right now, all I see you do for your party of choice is cheer them on.

Its a bit of a persecution complex, actually. A want to be offended for no other reason, I guess, than to complain about it. You are not a representative of the Republican party, merely one of its voter base.You do not control policy or platform, you are not a representative or employee of the party you are so dearly trying to defend all the time. Yet you act like you crafted the foundation it stands on, and are offended that someone would dare criticize or insult it.

My Father and brother ARE union employees, and thus saying "all" Union people are (insert derogatory statement here) is a direct attack on all union members. Neptune saying he doesnt like the Republican party should not get you offended, as its not a personal insult to you or yours. But you take it as one anyway. Thats your problem. I never take insults toward Ford, the company, personally... but if someone were to say all people who work for Ford are scum, then I do, because thats an insult to my family.

If I played by your rules, I could easily say your attacks on the president are also against me, which is not true, even though I have voted Democrat. You attack Democrats, the party and leadership, I am not offended at all, since I dont have a "political persecution complex" or feeling of ownership over them like it seems you do. Its your right to do so, criticize away on the Democrats if you like. . You personally attack my family, like saying "All union members are scumbags"... well that is an all inclusive insult about the union which also means my Brother and Father. Then expect me to get pissed.

You would do the same, if I made a blanket insult that included members of your family in a mean spirited, untrue insult. (Like saying all people in California are brainless turds..) That would be including people in your family, your wife. If I actually used such an insult, you would have every right to be offended because a) its not true b)its personal and includes your family c) its an insult.

quote I asked And because we identify with a political entity, does that mean we have to take any poke at that entity as a personal affront?

Well, Unions are not political parties, so its apples and oranges, but I believe now I answered my own question... do we take any poke to a political entity as a personal attack? Depends on how its worded, as stated above. But if I say "I think the Republican party is dumb because of this policy or that" That is a criticism of the party entity, platform, ideology. If I say "I think anyone who votes/ is a Republican is stupid/unpopular/whatever" that is an insult to a person. (All Persons that are republicans) Then, by all means, take it personal, since I have included you in such a blanket statement.

[This message has been edited by tbone42 (edited 08-21-2011).]

quote Originally posted by tbone42: You try to make it too simple. I am not surprised.

Do you want to have a decent conversation, yes or no?

It's easy! Don't belong to groups.

I have no idea what the Tea Party is anymore. It's been so splintered, hijacked, redefined, born several times, misaligned as Republicans, then aligned to Republicans, then aligned to Glenn Beck then to Rush Limbaugh, back to Republicans and now to Michele Bachmann.

I know it's still around but I think it's just fraction of what it really was several years ago. I think it's just about dead and we can chalk it up as a passing phase, much like the Moral Majority was back in the early 80's.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Do you want to have a decent conversation, yes or no?

Sure.

Just as long as you arent talking only try and find any point in my posts to try and make me look wrong because of your perceived political differences with me. This is not meant to be a contentious statement.

You'll have to forgive me if you believe I am being short about it, but I have had no other experience in the past with you except of that kind.

I welcome any kind of fresh approch, by all means, lets tread some new ground together.

But if you are here just to find any way to tell me I am wrong, when I know darn well what I am saying is valid, well, that I can get from any one of the half dozen trolls who do that to me on a regular basis.

So, do go on, I encourage conversation, just not contrariness for its own sake.That I can definitely do without.

[This message has been edited by tbone42 (edited 08-21-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Wichita: It's easy! Don't belong to groups.

I'd guess that's only doable for a small percentage of the population.

quote I have no idea what the Tea Party is anymore. It's been so splintered, hijacked, redefined, born several times, misaligned as Republicans, then aligned to Republicans, then aligned to Glenn Beck then to Rush Limbaugh, back to Republicans and now to Michele Bachmann.

Naw, that's all a bunch of crap that has been hung on the Tea Party from outside of it. Mainly by those who *want* it to be true.

quote I know it's still around but I think it's just fraction of what it really was several years ago. I think it's just about dead and we can chalk it up as a passing phase, much like the Moral Majority was back in the early 80's.

It's still doing very well.