Now I'm curious. We've got both a Catholic priest and a Judaic Rabbi in our "extended family" so I think I'll shoot off a couple of emails about this and see what they say on the subject of suicide and post-death absolution. I know that such does not exist within the context of Islam.
I'll get back to you guys with my findings.
Thanks, Don!
I never really knew the reason many in my family on my mothers side actually changed religion and became Mormon. But... I do have a guess. My grandfather was an absolute HELLRAISER. I believe my Grandmother felt he had not made peace with God or himself before dying. It was an aneurism bursting, so it was quite sudden. Three of my uncles (including one my aunt married who was born a Jew!) two of my aunts and my grandma all converted in the early 90s. Anyhow, as Grandma went, so went her children for the most part. Not my Mom, of course, but all the rest.
Suicide is another one of God's judgements I can't seem get my head around. Were those poor souls who jumped from those buildings on 9-11 condemed to hell for their actions?
Personally, I do believe suicide is wrong, but my personal belief differs from what God's word may say.
I'll address this thru scripture, and it may be a bit hard to swallow as well, as it flies in the face of what most people believe the bible says.
God warned man about His word, then man immediately set about doing exactly what God warned him about.
Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you. Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.˜ (De 4:1-2).[i]
Most of the usual religious dissent regarding suicide revolves around the one of Ten Commandments---[i]Thou shalt not kill. That's what we all read and learned--right? The problem is, and God warned us about this (above) , we twisted his words to mean what WE wanted it to mean. God's direct words (from the Hebrew text of the Torah) to Moses on the mount were "Thou shalt do no murder". Man diminished God's word to fit his own needs and desires. Jesus however, did not diminish those words of his Father, when he said:
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good[e] Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” 17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good?[f] No one is good but One, that is, God.[g] But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’[h] and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
Nowhere, that I am aware of, does the bible mention the punishment for suicide, a directive against it, or the eternal damnation we often automatically associate with suicide. Tho the official Jewish 'law' regarding suicide is that it is not acceptable, one of the most famous events in Jewish history ended in a mass suicide. The battle of Masada in 73 AD. 967 Jewish men, women, and children were trapped atop the desert fort of Masada, under attack by the Romans, and rather than surrender and face enslavement, they committed mass suicide except for a handful of women and children.
Also:
Of all the sins and transgressions documented in the Scriptures, no mentioning is made even once on the consequences of committing suicide, or condemnation for those who took their own lives as a result of that particular act committed:
¶ Then said Saul unto his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him.˜ (1Sa 31:4-5).
¶ And when Ahithophel saw that his counsel was not followed, he saddled his ass, and arose, and gat him home to his house, to his city, and put his household in order, and hanged himself, and died, and was buried in the sepulchre of his father.˜ (2Sa 17:23).
¶ And it came to pass, when Zimri saw that the city was taken, that he went into the palace of the king's house, and burnt the king's house over him with fire, and died.˜ (1Ki 16:18).
¶ Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.˜ (Mat 27:3-5).
¶ And Samson called unto the LORD, and said, O Lord GOD, remember me, I pray thee, and strengthen me, I pray thee, only this once, O God, that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes. And Samson took hold of the two middle pillars upon which the house stood, and on which it was borne up, of the one with his right hand, and of the other with his left. And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life.˜ (Judg 16:28-30). So God granted Samson his request to commit suicide, and to kill the Philistines for putting out his eyes, with no condemnation recorded for either act.
As far as not being able to repent for suicide,
Jesus said: ¶ ...All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.˜ (Mat 12:31), which is further explained in Hebrews 6:4-6.
God says in Matthew 10:28: ¶ And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.˜
I am God. I am Just. I am Good. I am Merciful.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 07-08-2011).]
And, as far as the killing of the daughter in the case being discussed, God places special love toward children and will not be happy about it. God sees us all as his CHILDREN, and Jesus referred to that many times.
1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2 Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, 3 and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
IF this woman did indeed kill her little daughter, she is in deep and eternal do do.
IF this woman did indeed kill her little daughter, she is in deep and eternal do do.
If 20 years down the road, she reaches a point where she recognizes how awful the whole thing was, and breaks down and gives everything to God, and recognizes Jesus died so that her sins were forgiven, and she pleads for forgiveness and repents, she is not in deep and eternal do-do.
Sin separates us from God. The pr0n I watched last week detached me. The white lie you told your dad at age 6 (I'm coming up with something) detached you. Casey's murdering detached her. None of us are perfect or sinless. We are all separated from God. We all need His forgiveness, and His sacrifice to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
We can't pretend that we are any better than Casey Anthony. We all sin, we are all human, and we all need forgiveness.
What are you talking about? That pretty much what I said. There are, and should be Earthly consequences, whether or not someone has asked for, and received forgiveness from God. So it sounds like you agree with me, not disagree.
Jim
Ah OK, Jim. I thought you meant he would escape earthly justice by connfessing to his sins and repenting. Yet another old fart moment . Nick
If 20 years down the road, she reaches a point where she recognizes how awful the whole thing was, and breaks down and gives everything to God, and recognizes Jesus died so that her sins were forgiven, and she pleads for forgiveness and repents, she is not in deep and eternal do-do.
Sin separates us from God. The pr0n I watched last week detached me. The white lie you told your dad at age 6 (I'm coming up with something) detached you. Casey's murdering detached her. None of us are perfect or sinless. We are all separated from God. We all need His forgiveness, and His sacrifice to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
We can't pretend that we are any better than Casey Anthony. We all sin, we are all human, and we all need forgiveness.
Except, God said he will not tarry forever--meaning he will not wait for us to decide to ask forgiveness indefinitely. He will "harden his heart" toward us and never hear our individual cries again. I won't bother finding that corresponding scripture, but it's why I don't place a whole lot of credence in deathbed conversions. One has to first accept God and Jesus Christ into their life and then ask forgiveness before he will ever hear them or speak to them.
Except, God said he will not tarry forever--meaning he will not wait for us to decide to ask forgiveness indefinitely. He will "harden his heart" toward us and never hear our individual cries again. I won't bother finding that corresponding scripture, but it's why I don't place a whole lot of credence in deathbed conversions. One has to first accept God and Jesus Christ into their life and then ask forgiveness before he will ever hear them or speak to them.
God hardens His heart, or we harden ours?
EDIT: So, the thief crucified next to Jesus actually wasn't saved? You've always had a great memory, but I think you're blanking on this one.
[This message has been edited by theBDub (edited 07-08-2011).]
Not so fast BDub. God does not answer the prayer of the wicked or those prayers uttered in sin. In fact, doesn't even hear them. The theif on the cross was saved thru Jesus Christ, and the same holds true for us. In the Old Testament, God spoke to man, both sinners and the rightous believers. In the covenant of the New Testament, God only speaks and pays attention to those who have accepted Jesus Christ into their lives. Our path to God and heaven is thru Jesus Christ and his teachings alone. He hardens his heart and turns a deaf ear to all others, just as he did to the Israelites who would not go into Caanan as God commanded them to, then they became ashamed, and went toward Canaan, and God commanded them not to, saying "Go not up, neither fight; for I am not among you; lest ye be smitten before your enemies."
The Israelites went anyway, were attacked and many killed and returned to the encampment, and cried to their Lord, but DEUT 1:45 And ye returned and wept before the LORD; but the LORD would not hearken to your voice, nor give ear unto you.
DEUT 1:46 So ye abode in Kadesh many days, according unto the days that ye abode there. .
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 07-09-2011).]
Not so fast BDub. God does not answer the prayer of the wicked or those prayers uttered in sin. In fact, doesn't even hear them. The theif on the cross was saved thru Jesus Christ, and the same holds true for us. In the Old Testament, God spoke to man, both sinners and the rightous believers. In the covenant of the New Testament, God only speaks and pays attention to those who have accepted Jesus Christ into their lives. Our path to God and heaven is thru Jesus Christ and his teachings alone. He hardens his heart and turns a deaf ear to all others, just as he did to the Israelites who would not go into Caanan as God commanded them to, then they became ashamed, and went toward Canaan, and God commanded them not to, saying "Go not up, neither fight; for I am not among you; lest ye be smitten before your enemies."
The Israelites went anyway, were attacked and many killed and returned to the encampment, and cried to their Lord, but DEUT 1:45 And ye returned and wept before the LORD; but the LORD would not hearken to your voice, nor give ear unto you.
DEUT 1:46 So ye abode in Kadesh many days, according unto the days that ye abode there. .
That's exactly what I said.
So if Casey Anthony gives herself to Jesus, she'll be saved. That's exactly what I said.
IP: Logged
02:29 PM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
God is not happy. Heard a newscast today that Orlando had a violent thunderstorm and a huge bolt of lightning struck a tree next to where Caylee was found. To bad Casey wasnt standing under it.
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