Doni--it depends on which religion one adheres to I suppose. I believe, in the Catholic religion, and perhaps LDS, absolution or even forgiveness can be had even after death via a 3rd party.
(page ownage of what has evolved into The Final Judgement thread)

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 07-06-2011).]

quote Originally posted by madcurl: What if she buys a Fiero, joins CFF, and poses in bikini wear on Pennoock's thread-would you be okay with that?

Would it be chopped ?

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Doni--it depends on which religion one adheres to I suppose. I believe, in the Catholic religion, and perhaps LDS, absolution or even forgiveness can be had even after death via a 3rd party.

Now I'm curious. We've got both a Catholic priest and a Judaic Rabbi in our "extended family" so I think I'll shoot off a couple of emails about this and see what they say on the subject of suicide and post-death absolution. I know that such does not exist within the context of Islam.

I'll get back to you guys with my findings.

Thanks, Don!

[This message has been edited by Doni Hagan (edited 07-06-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Doni Hagan: Hitler allegedly committed suicide, which is also a sin, isn't it? Wouldn't that negate whatever happened before that? Can't ask for forgiveness when you're already dead. Just for the sake of discussion, not an attack.

Suicide is another one of God's judgements I can't seem get my head around.
Were those poor souls who jumped from those buildings on 9-11 condemed to hell for their actions?

quote Originally posted by madcurl: What if she buys a Fiero, joins CFF, and poses in bikini wear on Pennoock's thread-would you be okay with that?

The internet is a pretty shallow place, I would look.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Suicide is another one of God's judgements I can't seem get my head around. Were those poor souls who jumped from those buildings on 9-11 condemed to hell for their actions?

I wouldn't consider that suicide. They were already dead. Just my opinion though. Back to what Doni said, in Hitlers case, I don't think any request for forgivenes would have been sincere. I don't think you could turn around and then kill yourself after asking for forgiveness. It shows that you never really believed in his saving grace to begin with. FWIW, I think that mental illness would be a caveat to this. By this I mean mental illness caused by broken physiology, not mental illness caused by a lifetime of poor decisions.

Jim

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Suicide is another one of God's judgements I can't seem get my head around. Were those poor souls who jumped from those buildings on 9-11 condemed to hell for their actions?

Wow... That's deep. I have thought about that before, and on another level: Is it suicide to sit there and allow yourself to be burned alive when you know there's no way out? Or is there absolution when you are choosing how you die when you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you're going to die regardless of the choice you make?

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Suicide is another one of God's judgements I can't seem get my head around. Were those poor souls who jumped from those buildings on 9-11 condemed to hell for their actions?

Boonie, I know you like to sometimes take things literally, and then pretend like you don't know that it's not supposed to be taken literally, and then create a "discussion" about it... but don't worry, I still love you (no homo style).

In any case... there are only certain groups within the Christian faith that believe those who commit suicide in cases like that, would go to hell.

There are people who believe that if you don't accept Jesus in life, that you will also go to hell in death.

Now personally, I can't say... God has never answered that question to me... but what I DO know about him, and what I have seen of him, I kind of doubt that's something he would do. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy that would take pleasure in picking and choosing those who would go into heaven. I also think that much of it is metaphorical... as in, accept me and you will go to heaven does not necessarily mean that if you do not, you will rot in hell. It simply means (in my mind) that accepting him will make you whole again. I mean, the Man's best friends were prostitutes, robbers, beggers, etc...

I also consider the fact that there ARE still tribes in this world, who have yet to make contact with the modern world. One of the more recently famous tribes are the ones that were found in a remote part of the Brazillian rain forest. They are located on a form of plateu that can only be accessed by a helicopter. They've apparently lived their entire lives there, and attack anything that comes near. The government has set regulations that prohibit people from trying to reach them.

So with that said, they haven't learned the word of God, nor have they accepted Jesus Christ. I seriously doubt these people are going to die for the simple fact that they do not even know he exists.

Most of the "rules" that you are taking literally, are encouraged by the concept of the religion in hopes of spreading it. This includes having a big family... procreating (a lot), no homosexuality, and not dying, and not killing people. The more people alive of a certain religion, the bigger the religion is. This is simply common sense.

I am very religious, and there's nothing that can shake my beliefs... but you have to use common sense when people state fact from what they are interpreting from the bible or the word of God. What they make from it, may not be what someone else makes from it.

Edit: Here's the tribe in Brazil...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7426794.stm

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 07-06-2011).]

quote Originally posted by jimbolaya: I wouldn't consider that suicide. They were already dead. Just my opinion though. *snip* Jim

But it's not your opinion that matters, it's what *insert deity here* commands and/or requires for absolution. They were still living and breathing individuals when they jumped, and they had to have known they were going to die when they stepped out those windows, they also had to have known they were going to die if they stayed in the building.

Is doing either of those things (since knowing that either which way, you're going to die) considered suicide?

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Suicide is another one of God's judgements I can't seem get my head around. Were those poor souls who jumped from those buildings on 9-11 condemed to hell for their actions?

If one is not to believe in a God, then does things start making more sense or more confusing?

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Boonie, I know you like to sometimes take things literally, and then pretend like you don't know that it's not supposed to be taken literally, and then create a "discussion" about it...

Lately you have expressed a self-percieved ability to supposedly know what is absolutly ment behind what I write.
But when you do that, I don't think you are not exposing what you think I mean, I think you are reflecting what you want me to mean.

Why can't a question just be a question?
Or is this just another example of your dissapproval of late as to the way I choose to interact?

I'm not being nasty, as I take no offense to it when stated as a question, and only slightly when stated as fact.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Lately you have expressed a self-percieved ability to supposedly know what is absolutly ment behind what I write. But when you do that, I don't think you are not exposing what you think I mean, I think you are reflecting what you want me to mean. Why can't a question just be a question? Or is this just another example of your dissapproval of late as to the way I choose to interact? I'm not being nasty, as I take no offense to it when stated as a question, and only slightly when stated as fact.

Why ask a question if you don't want it answered? You must have read Aristotal's Poetics.

I have no dissaproval of how you decide to act... unless I've missed some threads, none of it has been directed towards me? As far as I know, we are still two peas from different pods, in similar long distance journeys. (Sorry... I've been drinking tonight)

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: As far as I know, we are still two peas from different pods, in similar long distance journeys.

But I take what you write at face value, without proclaiming what I think you ment.
I read exactly what you write, without adding a single meaning to it other then what you wrote.

But it's all just spilled milk.

quote Originally posted by rpro: It's officially ok to kill your child now.

If that were the situation, then everything would be "officially ok" seeing how Lindsey Lohan has done everything except murder (that I know of) and gotten away with it.

Think of it this way (and do know I'm going back on 2 years of memories of when this was first "dug up").
But, if the evidence wasn't hard enough to put her away, then what if she WAS/IS innocent?

Yeah, her kid dies, and she immediately starts going to the club.
She could yes, be a heartless mom. Maybe even trying to find a way to mask her emotions. Who knows. Doesn't mean she was a killer.

And another way to look at it...
I have an uncle who's in jail for pushing my cousin's friend out of the room. I witnessed everything. He got 14 years for a little girl throwing a fit that she couldn't hang out in his room, and lied to her parents that he "touched her". I saw it all, and to this day, my memory rewards me the ability to draw the interior of my house that I moved out of when I was 2 years old. But a 9 year old's memory as defense isn't very creditable.
Innocent man, on crappy evidence. I haven't seen him since he got out. I feel almost as if I failed him.
My cousin's friend, lives her life as if it never happened. I brought it up once and she screamed at me in anger.
The 1 girl I wanted to punch so hard but still couldn't bring myself to do it.

--Point is, our court system isn't perfect.


--
She'll (Casey Anthony) regret her own actions deeply, if she did commit murder of her child. Think about it. She was 22 when she did this. I know people who deeply regret little mistakes they made yesterday.
She will either ache from the pains of what she did... Or she'll end up with someone just as careless who will give her a very miserable life.
Not talking about Karma. Just talking about the positions she'll put herself in judging by her plausible behavior.

[This message has been edited by chriswf (edited 07-06-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Rallaster: But it's not your opinion that matters, it's what *insert deity here* commands and/or requires for absolution. They were still living and breathing individuals when they jumped, and they had to have known they were going to die when they stepped out those windows, they also had to have known they were going to die if they stayed in the building. Is doing either of those things (since knowing that either which way, you're going to die) considered suicide?

You're right, ultimately it's not my opinion that really matters. It's not specifically addressed, but there is enough to make a reasoned observation. I would liken it to an assassin asking you if want to die by a bullet or a blade? And to Wichita, I think, by believing in God, things make more sense. I don't sit around pondering all these what ifs. It becomes unnecessary. My path is straight, my destination is clear, I just need to stay on the road.

Jim

[This message has been edited by jimbolaya (edited 07-06-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: But I take what you write at face value, without proclaiming what I think you ment. I read exactly what you write, without adding a single meaning to it other then what you wrote. But it's all just spilled milk.

To be honest, I do think you write in prose... I didn't know if that was on purpose. I've always thought of your comments and questions as being a bit more on the philosophical side... am I wrong to think that? With that in mind, I assumed it was meant to expand upon...

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: She didnt leave the house or even mention her daughter for weeks.

Interesting. Were you secretly recording video or at least audio at her house during this time?

That statement of yours must be true though, because you saw/heard in on radio and/or tv. When will people stop just believing stuff just because someone else says it, even when there is absolutely no proof. (hmmmm could go into religion here but I won't) Occasionally at home, I am asked why do I just take what someone says on here (fiero related) as a truth. It's not because someone says it, its because someone says it, and then I can go outside and do what they say/look at whatever and see it is indeed true.

and for the other question about how things change when someone doesn't believe in whatever faith,religion etc. My opinion would be the same as when you stop believing in Santa Clause, Easter Bunny, etc.....you start being reality based and not fantasy based.

[This message has been edited by Gecko (edited 07-07-2011).]

To those of you who say shes been acquitted....let her live her life. Well shes in need of a job and place to live. I suggest you get hold of her and hire her as a live in nanny for your kids......(ya, thought so)

She may make a bundle selling a movie or book deal, but court is already looking at either fining her millions at sentencing or filing a suit to be reimbursed for her trial since she claimed she had no money. If they do, they can take all or most of any profits she makes from the trial.

Vivid Video, the **** studio apparently had made an offer to make an XXX movie with her. But yesterday the CEO said they had retracted the offer because of all the negative publicity with her. " We make movies to make a profit, and at this time we see no viable income from making one. Being the most hated woman in the country does not make her profitable to us. "

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 07-07-2011).]

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: To be honest, I do think you write in prose... I didn't know if that was on purpose. I've always thought of your comments and questions as being a bit more on the philosophical side... am I wrong to think that? .

No, I guess not.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: No, I guess not.

I read your stuff Boonie. I don't think your opinions are wrong, but I do think mine are right most times, otherwise I wouldn't have them.
I do reserve the right to change my opinions when I find out they're wrong, and of course acknowledge the caveat that I might be wrong in my various opinions.

She gets maximum sentences for each charge to be served conscecutively. So she gets 4 years minus time served and time for good behavior (ironic). She also gets fined $1000. She goes back to jail till that time is figured, probably late August. The State also has 60 days from today to add up the costs of court and the investigations. That could amount to millions of dollars in fines. Those charges will be as a fine and not as a law suit. Baez wants the right to see all invoices and bills for those. At least she goes back to jail for a little while. She came into court all cheery but left POed she didnt get out....

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Our system worked perfectly. It was not proven beyond a reasonable doubt that she was guilty of murder. She was found not guilty by her peers. The system worked.

I'll agree, the trial system worked.

Now granted, I didn't see much at all of this trial but did the prosecution have an accurate case? Is it possible that child died in a pool accident and then had it covered up? Would the prosecution have gained a conviction if they went with a lessor charge?

I'm sad because the family failed the child, now it looks like the police and prosecution has also failed the child.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I read your stuff Boonie. I don't think your opinions are wrong, but I do think mine are right most times, otherwise I wouldn't have them.

Yeah, we've noticed. Newsflash, you are as full of **** as the rest of us... but we like you anyway.

Looks like she'll be staying a little while longer. 4 years and $4.000 fine. It looks like she'll be out by the end of next month.

quote Originally posted by carnut122: Looks like she'll be staying a little while longer. 4 years and $4.000 fine. It looks like she'll be out by the end of next month.

She gets 4 years (1460 days) and according to court tv shes served 1043 days. That leaves her about 417 days to serve before shes given credit for good behavior. I dont know how florida works that (Ohio is 2 days credit for each one served). She would also get credit for doing a 'job' during her incarceration but she was in solitary confinement so ineligible for any of that. He did give her a small break by allowing her roughly year and half check fraud sentence to be concurrent...so that wont be added.

Just in, shes likely to get out July 13, 2011.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 07-07-2011).]

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Just in, shes likely to get out July 13, 2011.

If I may add, and knock-up by July 14, 2011.

"Casey will you marry me," read a sign held by 20-year-old pizzeria worker Tim Allen.


http://news.yahoo.com/juror...thony-012228871.html

Ya, people figuring to cash in. She already said she wants to get pregnant or adopt a foriegn baby....(lol, like what agency is gonna do that). I hope she has such a miserable life released she commits suicide within a few weeks and everyone will be lots safer and happier. Whether or not suicide gets you to hell is immaterial since shes going there anyway.

Sadly in American, Anthony can possibly make more money than the average person by book deals, a movie, T.V. appearances, and if that doesn't work-p0rn. Casey's best option would be to move to another country after cashing in on her over extended 15-minutes.

But what people dont see is she will barely get any of that money. She will have a court fine in hundreds of thousands if not millions. Not to mention civil lawsuits by her X-fiancee, a real Zanida Gonzolez and misc others who will also win large sums. All that she gets will be applicable to those judgements by being withheld, garnishment, etc. She did get $250,000 for some pictures in 08 and thats been seized for income taxes already by the feds. This whole thing is just barely gotten started. Getting away with murder just opened it all up. Like I already said, Vivid Video already took back an offer they made before. They dont want anything to do with her. She is going to have to move far away. Frankly Id even be surprised if her own family members dont sue her for something. She HAS to testify under oath for a civil trial as there is no 5th amendment right or she goes to jail for refusing to. She can also go to jail for pergury if shes proven to lie there too. Her best bet is to run away to somewhere that dont have US extradition treaties.

quote Originally posted by exoticse: Would it be chopped ?

I don't know. Is #004 back from GA yet?

Adding salt to the wound-they didn't get Casey for child endangerment or neglect. They should’ve used and thrown everything at her-just in case the murder rap doesn’t work.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Boonie, I know you like to sometimes take things literally, and then pretend like you don't know that it's not supposed to be taken literally, and then create a "discussion" about it... but don't worry, I still love you (no homo style). In any case... there are only certain groups within the Christian faith that believe those who commit suicide in cases like that, would go to hell. There are people who believe that if you don't accept Jesus in life, that you will also go to hell in death. Now personally, I can't say... God has never answered that question to me... but what I DO know about him, and what I have seen of him, I kind of doubt that's something he would do. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy that would take pleasure in picking and choosing those who would go into heaven. I also think that much of it is metaphorical... as in, accept me and you will go to heaven does not necessarily mean that if you do not, you will rot in hell. It simply means (in my mind) that accepting him will make you whole again. I mean, the Man's best friends were prostitutes, robbers, beggers, etc... I also consider the fact that there ARE still tribes in this world, who have yet to make contact with the modern world. One of the more recently famous tribes are the ones that were found in a remote part of the Brazillian rain forest. They are located on a form of plateu that can only be accessed by a helicopter. They've apparently lived their entire lives there, and attack anything that comes near. The government has set regulations that prohibit people from trying to reach them. So with that said, they haven't learned the word of God, nor have they accepted Jesus Christ. I seriously doubt these people are going to die for the simple fact that they do not even know he exists. Most of the "rules" that you are taking literally, are encouraged by the concept of the religion in hopes of spreading it. This includes having a big family... procreating (a lot), no homosexuality, and not dying, and not killing people. The more people alive of a certain religion, the bigger the religion is. This is simply common sense. I am very religious, and there's nothing that can shake my beliefs... but you have to use common sense when people state fact from what they are interpreting from the bible or the word of God. What they make from it, may not be what someone else makes from it. Edit: Here's the tribe in Brazil... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7426794.stm

Bravo, couldn't have said it better myself. "Christians" who think its their job to judge others and point their fingers proclaiming who and who will not go to hell do them self a disservice along with Christianity as a whole.

adjustment....they just didnt prove it to the jurys satisfaction. Proved it to millions of others....they just dont count.

There is a push now of making it a federal offense to not report a dead or missing child within 48 hours. Its called Caylees Law.

They revised (maybe) the release date to July 17. Some speculation theyre just trying to hide the actual release so someone dont try to kill her when she walks out the door.

quote Originally posted by jimbolaya: Why does this twist you all up? I don't get it, it's very simple. If Hitler sincerely asked for forgiveness, and believe in Jesus as God's one and only son, then ABSOLUTELY he is all clean. He would enter into heaven. This however, would not release him of earthly consequences. "I do not think" however that he ever asked for forgiveness at all, let alone be sincere. In addition, "I think" Casey Anthony is guilty, but my panties are not in a bunch about the decision. I did not sit in that courtroom for months on end, and I saw very little of it on TV. Certainly not enough to make a definitive judgement. It is what it is. If she did it, then she will pay the ultimate price one day. Jim

I so strongly disagree with this...sorry Jim
I am NOT prepared to accept the (IMHO) REMOTE possibility that earthly crimes will be dealt with when we are departed this World. In fact I can' accept it at all. My strong belief is this: the BODY must be punished here on Earth where the transgreessions are commited, and allow the SOUL (IF there is such a thing), to be forgiven in Heaven, should they get there, and if it exists.
WHY?? SImple. Because YOUR faith in the hereafter, and in God, should not, and WILL not protect the sinners from paying the penalty.
Just look at it like this, if you will. SUPPOSE you are wrong, and there is no Heaven or Hell, and the sinners are therefore NEVER punished for their sins. What then? And if the SINNER doesn't believe, and he is RIGHT...he gets away with it.
And THAT IS WHY, again in my opinion, 'an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth' should be the ONLY way to deal with sins here on Earth
Heaven and God can still forgive what is left, if they DO exist, and choose to.
Human Laws and trials are as frail as humans themselves. God's Laws would seem even MORE frail, therefore, if He POSSIBLY DOESN'T exist?
PUNISH HERE.PUNISH NOW.The body belongs and remains on Earth. The Soul could possibly go on to better things, IF it deserves them
Nick

.

[This message has been edited by Tony Kania (edited 07-09-2011).]

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: I so strongly disagree with this...sorry Jim I am NOT prepared to accept the (IMHO) REMOTE possibility that earthly crimes will be dealt with when we are departed this World. In fact I can' accept it at all. My strong belief is this: the BODY must be punished here on Earth where the transgreessions are commited, and allow the SOUL (IF there is such a thing), to be forgiven in Heaven, should they get there, and if it exists. WHY?? SImple. Because YOUR faith in the hereafter, and in God, should not, and WILL not protect the sinners from paying the penalty. Just look at it like this, if you will. SUPPOSE you are wrong, and there is no Heaven or Hell, and the sinners are therefore NEVER punished for their sins. What then? And if the SINNER doesn't believe, and he is RIGHT...he gets away with it. And THAT IS WHY, again in my opinion, 'an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth' should be the ONLY way to deal with sins here on Earth Heaven and God can still forgive what is left, if they DO exist, and choose to. Human Laws and trials are as frail as humans themselves. God's Laws would seem even MORE frail, therefore, if He POSSIBLY DOESN'T exist? PUNISH HERE.PUNISH NOW.The body belongs and remains on Earth. The Soul could possibly go on to better things, IF it deserves them Nick

What are you talking about? That pretty much what I said. There are, and should be Earthly consequences, whether or not someone has asked for, and received forgiveness from God. So it sounds like you agree with me, not disagree.

Jim

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Suicide is another one of God's judgements I can't seem get my head around. Were those poor souls who jumped from those buildings on 9-11 condemed to hell for their actions?

My thought on that is that those people KNEW they'd die in the burning building, but thought that maybe there was a 1% chance of survival if they jumped and landed in JUST the right spot.

It wasn't suicide or even choosing death, it was reaction and hope.