quote Originally posted by twofatguys: I don't know where you were going with all this, but I am more than willing to die for my rights, I'll even die for your rights. I am an American, and that's what we do. I will try common sense, but I will not let fear, and intimidation get in the way of my freedom. I watched a special on the freedom riders last night. People fought for desegregation in the South, to be able to ride a bus. I'm not sure the exact numbers off the top of my head, but over 300 people were arrested, and put in Prison. Many were beaten, some severely. There was vigilante type attacks on Greyhound buses, drivers refused to drive "coloreds". I'm not saying this is the same situation, or even close. But what is? At what point do we stop (literally) laying down for bad cops? When is that point? I'm pretty sure this guy was at "that point". I'll post the Quote in my next post so nobody has to "chase links". Keep in mind he has been continually harassed by the Pittsburgh PD over the past year or so. This looks like the third time in a year, and the last time they confiscated his gun for 5 months. Brad

I 100% respect your opinion on this. My point was, while being willing to die for your rights is one thing, this seemed like a stupid way to do it. IMO, this situation didn't warrant sacrificing your life to make a point, so my immediate goal would be to survive the encounter so I can do more effective fighting for my rights later - like exposing this cop for the moron that he is.

Where do you draw the line? That's very hard to say and will be different for everyone. I couldn't truthfully make that call unless I was in the situation. Had I been the citizen being accosted, I might have felt differently than I do as a bystander hearing about it in the news.

If this was an isolated incident, which is what I was thinking when making my previous posts, that's one thing. If it's a pattern of recurring harassment, that does change your mindset.

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: I don't know where you were going with all this, but I am more than willing to die for my rights, I'll even die for your rights. I am an American, and that's what we do. Brad

Well said Brad. Thanks for posting up that article as well.

And no, I don't think this guy went out that day looking for attention. I think he just wanted to go to AutoZone, and openly displayed his gun as to not get mugged in NE Philly.

Shame that he ended up getting "mugged" by the PD though...
And really shouldn't this event get all the attention it has gotten and more?!? I mean, some guy is being charged with crimes for walking down the street and not getting down on his knees at gunpoint!

Pretty much the same situation I found myself in a month ago except the cops didnt pull a gun on me and mine was concealed legally. I was dumb thinking the cops were the good guys and wish id had the smarts to record the whole stop. Would have saved me $400 and a bunch of time.

Now heres what the conundrum is. Do you carry your legal gun on you as permitted and follow the law to protect yourself from criminals, or do you leave your gun at home so the cops cant find a reason to hassle or arrest you, and back to where you have no protection from the criminal................

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 05-18-2011).]

Well, yeah. Don't you know a cop can point his weapon at you for any reason he wants to, and you have to bow to his commands or be shot? I mean really, it makes perfect sense.

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: "It was a setup. He's done this kind of thing before," said Evers, the police spokesman, referring to Fiorino's encounters with authorities. "He did it intentionally, and he audiotaped it." Hmm, and let's see, if the cop hadn't acted like a complete tool, there would have been nothing TO "trap". Guess they don't consider that. I can't stand cops. Far too many are self important asshats. Bunch of revenuers.

I'd love to hear that argument used in court.
"That's right, this was a premeditated setup where my client intended from the outset to legally walk in public."

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 05-18-2011).]

quote Originally posted by blackrams: I suspect that charges will be dropped as it appears he was within his legal rights but, based on the audio and reports, I also believe this guy was looking to get some attention. If, he had followed the officers instructions from the get go. This would have never gone as far. Carrying a weapon openly although legal is just asking to be challenged by police especially in an area known for tougher gun laws. My son has a CCW but, he never openly carries except at the shooting range. When he has been stopped by police, the first thing out of his mouth is Officer, I am carrying, letting the officer know as soon as possible that he is not the only one with a firearm. Was he wrong, no. Was he looking to get some attention, hell yes.

So your saying he set this up, and somehow knew that a cop would be at the local autozone, and did this for attention? I think thats reaching a bit, kinda like the cops are doing now trying to save face..

quote "Our officers weren't up to speed [because] we never really addressed it," said Lt. Francis Healy, the department's lawyer. "In the last several weeks, we've done a lot of training and put out a lot of information about what is allowed and what's not allowed. Right now, our officers are better-versed on the subject matter."

Officers not up to speed! We never really addressed it!!! HOLY $HIT! Who in the hell runs this half assed dept? We live in a nation where its citizens have the right to carry guns on them.. They are in a big city, with lots of people, and lots of people carrying guns, and they didnt take the time to "address" the local gun laws, and get their officers "up to speed".. Shouldent have that been taken care of in....you know... training! BEFORE they gave the morons a badge and a gun and set them loose on the streets too "protect" citizens when they dont even know the freakin hand gun laws..

PATHETIC! There is absolutely no excuse at all for that.. I hope the guy gets all charges dropped, and in the end, gets some money from the city.. I dont normally support people getting money from lawsuits (usually) but in this case id make an exception.. The city needs to learn its lesson for such ignorance and stupidity.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: I 100% respect your opinion on this. My point was, while being willing to die for your rights is one thing, this seemed like a stupid way to do it. IMO, this situation didn't warrant sacrificing your life to make a point, so my immediate goal would be to survive the encounter so I can do more effective fighting for my rights later - like exposing this cop for the moron that he is. Where do you draw the line? That's very hard to say and will be different for everyone. I couldn't truthfully make that call unless I was in the situation. Had I been the citizen being accosted, I might have felt differently than I do as a bystander hearing about it in the news. If this was an isolated incident, which is what I was thinking when making my previous posts, that's one thing. If it's a pattern of recurring harassment, that does change your mindset.

That's why I mentioned the Freedom riders. When they started the Freedom Rides in the 60's, the majority of the country saw nothing wrong with what they were fighting against. And the majority certainly didn't think they should be "interrupting" the buses, and Government. The Kennedy's repeatedly asked them to stop, claiming the Rides were taking away from "more important things". The Unions worked together to stop the buses from running, the Klan worked with the Police to beat anyone who rode a "Freedom Ride", and the Government imprisoned the Riders for doing it. (No laws were broken however by the Riders.)

All of this to end Segregation in the South. Now step back for a second, and imagine that the Riders had quit when the President told them to, or when the Police arrested them, or when it got dangerous. Where would we be if they had quit? Would all the stuff that happened in this country prior to then still be considered OK?


Brad

quote Originally posted by Nurb432: In their line of work, suspecting everyone is not a bad thing. If you start trusting, its how you get killed.

And by assuming everyone is a cop killer, you kill innocent civilians by being jumpy. It goes both ways, trust no one, but the officers could plainly see the weapon and see that he wasn't reaching for it, there was no reason for them to draw their guns. They put his life in danger for no reason.

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: That's why I mentioned the Freedom riders. When they started the Freedom Rides in the 60's, the majority of the country saw nothing wrong with what they were fighting against. And the majority certainly didn't think they should be "interrupting" the buses, and Government. The Kennedy's repeatedly asked them to stop, claiming the Rides were taking away from "more important things". The Unions worked together to stop the buses from running, the Klan worked with the Police to beat anyone who rode a "Freedom Ride", and the Government imprisoned the Riders for doing it. (No laws were broken however by the Riders.) All of this to end Segregation in the South. Now step back for a second, and imagine that the Riders had quit when the President told them to, or when the Police arrested them, or when it got dangerous. Where would we be if they had quit? Would all the stuff that happened in this country prior to then still be considered OK? Brad

Good point. I wasn't suggesting the citizen stop legally open carrying, only that if I were in his place once it escalated to the point of guns being drawn, I probably wouldn't have pushed the issue in the name of survival. Bring the issue to light and continue to open carry. Much like the Freesom Riders, they kept up their legal behavior even if they were arrested for it and tried to not get killed by the police in the process. That's what I would have done in this case.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Good point. I wasn't suggesting the citizen stop legally open carrying, only that if I were in his place once it escalated to the point of guns being drawn, I probably wouldn't have pushed the issue in the name of survival. Bring the issue to light and continue to open carry. Much like the Freesom Riders, they kept up their legal behavior even if they were arrested for it and tried to not get killed by the police in the process. That's what I would have done in this case.

Actually the Freedom Riders expected to be killed. They all filled out their last will and Testament prior to boarding a bus, then they would not fight back, to the point of one lady telling the Attorney General to stop protecting her, since she was prepared to be beaten.

And I get what you are saying. I'm not attacking you here, just educating the masses.

Brad

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Pretty much the same situation I found myself in a month ago except the cops didnt pull a gun on me and mine was concealed legally. I was dumb thinking the cops were the good guys and wish id had the smarts to record the whole stop. Would have saved me $400 and a bunch of time. Now heres what the conundrum is. Do you carry your legal gun on you as permitted and follow the law to protect yourself from criminals, or do you leave your gun at home so the cops cant find a reason to hassle or arrest you, and back to where you have no protection from the criminal................

Sounds like you just need to decide which criminals to let win...

The part that I find humorous is the police saying it was a setup. The police setup people every day and every chance that they get. I have posted this video before of a former police officer talking about some of the tactics that law enforcement uses to get confessions. They are allowed to lie, use coercion, and threats to get you to confess to a crime. And BTW, they can and do record every word that you say. Yet they get upset when a citizen records audio or video of them.

In the video the former officer talks about how he will walk in with a tape recorder, talk to the suspect, then turn it off and start talking "off the record". What he doesn't say is that the tape recorder that he walked in with is irrelevant because everything said in the room is recorded anyway. They talk about asking a suspect to write an appology letter, then submitting it as an admission of guilt. Also how they will start sympathising with the suspect to gain their trust to get them to confess. All of this can take place over a very long period of time. It is not unusual to be "questioned" for 12-14 hours as the police try to break your will and get you to confess.

And they get indignant and upset because Joe Public records them in public doing their duty. I have no sympathy for them. If I had my way, there would be a video recorder on every LEO recording every single thing that they do on duty both for their protection and the public's protection.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Good point. I wasn't suggesting the citizen stop legally open carrying, only that if I were in his place once it escalated to the point of guns being drawn.

That's the thing though, the cop apparantly had his weapon aimed at a law-abiding citizen before any words were exchanged. I'd place all the escalation on the LEO.

I mean, the civilian was smart enough to put his license in a chest pocket so when he tried to reach for it, his hands were moving away from his firearm, in a manner that should have been fairly non-threatening to an officer using any common sense. Until the officer yells at him to put his hands down (which makes no sense at all considering that is where his weapon was holstered)

How was he carrying the gun? My first impression of a plain clothes guy wearing a holster would probably be that he WAS a cop. Tucked in his waistband like a moron would be another story, but this guy sounds on the up and up, other than being a little too ready with the tape recorder.

quote Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC: How was he carrying the gun? My first impression of a plain clothes guy wearing a holster would probably be that he WAS a cop. Tucked in his waistband like a moron would be another story, but this guy sounds on the up and up, other than being a little too ready with the tape recorder.

Well the police claimed to have "dealt" with him before, I am sure if I was being bugged by the local PD, I would start carrying a recorder too. I don't fault him at all.

quote Originally posted by dsnover: Actually quite interesting, that the law is technically impossible to meet. Pennsylvania has no 'CCW' or 'Concealed Carry Firearm License'. We have a 'License to carry firearms'. It says nothing on it about concealment, although to lawfully carry concealed, you must have that license*. * Some of us in Pennsylvania (myself included) insist that the Pennsylvania Constitution is quite clear in its verbage: Article 1, Section 21: "The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned." And then further Article 1, Section 25: "To guard against the transgressions of the high powers which we have delegated, we declare that everything in this article is excepted out of the general powers of government and shall forever remain inviolate." Yet somehow, we have laws against guns in PA. We have much damage to UN-do.

Also I'm 99% sure that in this case State law overturns philadelphia law.

Since the consensus is that the LEO were clearly in the wrong and it's apparent that the charges filed are actually retaliation/punitive, the big question I have is, who's going to reimburse the victim for their legal expenses? Last time I used a lawyer it was over $5,000 out of pocket, and in this guy's case even if they drop the charges or it gets thrown out by a judge the guy's still going to be out that cash, for what amounts to a deliberate misuse of the law by the police. Somebody owes that guy some real money here, who is it?

"The first thing a cop is taught is to suspect everyone, that everyone is guilty, and only the Police are right."
All cops are crooked.

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: I watched a special on the freedom riders last night. People fought for desegregation in the South, to be able to ride a bus. I'm not sure the exact numbers off the top of my head, but over 300 people were arrested, and put in Prison. Many were beaten, some severely. There was vigilante type attacks on Greyhound buses, drivers refused to drive "coloreds". Brad

You saw that on PBS. That was a good show.

BTW Brad, I am right there with you on the Po Po. I will never cooperate again after being given a sobriety test after an accident occured in front of me and I called 911 to try and help. When they get there, they are more interested in whether I have been drinking than if someone in one of the accident cars was. Wasted my damn time, walk in a straight line and all that... and even though they were wrong, I never got an apology, just "Get out of here." I know someone they did the same thing to and took him for jail for being at the legal limit. He said he will never stop to hel anyone ever again. I dont blame him.

[This message has been edited by tbone42 (edited 05-18-2011).]

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Since the consensus is that the LEO were clearly in the wrong and it's apparent that the charges filed are actually retaliation/punitive, the big question I have is, who's going to reimburse the victim for their legal expenses? Last time I used a lawyer it was over $5,000 out of pocket, and in this guy's case even if they drop the charges or it gets thrown out by a judge the guy's still going to be out that cash, for what amounts to a deliberate misuse of the law by the police. Somebody owes that guy some real money here, who is it?

Its called malicious prosecution but I doubt it will be easy to recoup his costs regardless.

A surgeon sees everyone has walking body parts, a salesman sees everyone as a potential buyer, a cop sees everyone as a perp. Guess what proctologists see everyone as?

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: A surgeon sees everyone has walking body parts, a salesman sees everyone as a potential buyer, a cop sees everyone as a perp. Guess what proctologists see everyone as?

A Mercedes payment?

quote Originally posted by Isolde: All cops are crooked.

Enough blanket statments. Please do a search on here for NickD3.4. One of ours here is a cop, and someone that has always had my respect.

Actually don't even do a search, read this thread: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/085106.html

and his article on TASER here: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...6/HTML/085057-2.html

Now I'm totally fine with "most" or "a majority," But don't tell me that Nick is crooked, that's a false statement.

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: Actually the Freedom Riders expected to be killed. They all filled out their last will and Testament prior to boarding a bus, then they would not fight back, to the point of one lady telling the Attorney General to stop protecting her, since she was prepared to be beaten. And I get what you are saying. I'm not attacking you here, just educating the masses. Brad

I didn't know that about the wills. Thanks for the info.
I didn't think you were attacking me. Good discussion. Thank you.

quote Originally posted by Jonesy: So your saying he set this up, and somehow knew that a cop would be at the local autozone, and did this for attention? I think thats reaching a bit, kinda like the cops are doing now trying to save face..

Yep, that precisely what I believe. Knowing where he'd find a cop, most likely not but, how many folks do you know that walk around recording stuff like this.

I am not saying the LEO did an outstanding job or anything else. I'm saying that the guy was intent to make a point. I have no sympathy for guys like this. He went looking for something and found it. That doesn't excuse all the the LEO's action and language but, I don't blame the LEO for initially stopping an armed unknown person in a city where carrying is supposedly illegal unless the person carrying is licensed to do so. Most folks I know that have a CCW permit carry it concealed. Doesn't matter to me but I don't have any sympathy for the guy that struts around making a statement that he is armed.

------------------
Ron

Ron,

The problem is, in PA, there *technically* isn't a CCW permit. It is *technically* a License to Carry Firearms permit (says it right on the card). But it is generally regarded that one CAN carry concealed with the LTCF card if one so chooses.

That said, with PA being a traditional open carry state, with exception to "Cities of the First Class" (as worded in the PA gun laws, which includes Pittsburg and Philadelphia as the only 2 "cities of first class" in PA), one can carry anywhere openly. For one to carry IN Philadelphia openly, one must have the LCTF.

Just sayin'

quote Originally posted by Xerces_Blackthorne: Ron, The problem is, in PA, there *technically* isn't a CCW permit. It is *technically* a License to Carry Firearms permit (says it right on the card). But it is generally regarded that one CAN carry concealed with the LTCF card if one so chooses. That said, with PA being a traditional open carry state, with exception to "Cities of the First Class" (as worded in the PA gun laws, which includes Pittsburg and Philadelphia as the only 2 "cities of first class" in PA), one can carry anywhere openly. For one to carry IN Philadelphia openly, one must have the LCTF. Just sayin'

I realize that PA is an open carry state with limitations. That's the whole point this guy was making, he chose where to get his fame. As I said previously.............................

He could have defuse the situation. Did the LEO over react, I guess that depends on your perspective. I'm sure from his side of the debate, he did not know who or what he was dealing with and, that person was not following instructions. I'm not suggesting he was 100% correct either but, from my perspective, he was not 100% wrong either.

------------------
Ron

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 05-18-2011).]

quote Originally posted by blackrams: I realize that PA is an open carry state with limitations. That's the whole point this guy was making, he chose where to get his fame. As I said previously............................. He could have defuse the situation. Did the LEO over react, I guess that depends on your perspective. I'm sure from his side of the debate, he did know who or what he was dealing with and, that person was not following instructions. I'm not suggesting he was 100% correct either but, from my perspective, he was not 100% wrong either.

By that logic you should back down to anyone that wrongly gets in your face, because you could defuse the situation. We are not subjects and LEO are not better than us.

quote Originally posted by dennis_6: By that logic you should back down to anyone that wrongly gets in your face, because you could defuse the situation. We are not subjects and LEO are not better than us.

Let me consider that for a moment. Someone with a weapon pointed at me tells me to do something. This person also has a badge. I think I'll consider doing it. Without the badge, I'll still consider doing it up to the point that I can adequately defend myself. Kind of depends on the situation don't you think? There is a difference between being courageous and being stupid.

BTW, after re-reading the post you responded to, I need to edit it to make it clear.

------------------
Ron

quote Originally posted by blackrams: Yep, that precisely what I believe. Knowing where he'd find a cop, most likely not but, how many folks do you know that walk around recording stuff like this. I am not saying the LEO did an outstanding job or anything else. I'm saying that the guy was intent to make a point. I have no sympathy for guys like this. He went looking for something and found it. That doesn't excuse all the the LEO's action and language but, I don't blame the LEO for initially stopping an armed unknown person in a city where carrying is supposedly illegal unless the person carrying is licensed to do so. Most folks I know that have a CCW permit carry it concealed. Doesn't matter to me but I don't have any sympathy for the guy that struts around making a statement that he is armed.

OK, so the guy walked to the parts store knowing that a cop would be driving by? I am not buying that even a little bit.

Brad

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: OK, so the guy walked to the parts store knowing that a cop would be driving by? I am not buying that even a little bit. Brad

Brad,
I never suggested that but, he was obviously walking around with a handgun openly on his hip knowing that eventually, some LEO would see it and challenge him. No doubt in my mind he was waiting for this opportunity where ever, when ever it happened, he was ready, he had his recording device ready and recording from the beginning of the encounter. No doubt in my mind, he saw the LEO before the LEO saw him with his sidearm.

This really doesn't matter to me, but there are obvious signs here of a set-up. Is it a big deal, not to me. Those prone to always consider LEOs in the wrong will see it one way, I am trying to be objective about the information provided.

------------------
Ron

Seems to me there are two legal systems here. One is the one created by the citizens via their elected legislatures, published in the public record, and expected to be respected by all. The other legal system is the one created by individual unelected police officers without benefit of any publicly influenced legislative procedures, not published in the official public record, but expected to be obeyed by non-police with no recourse through the first legal system. In fact, as proven in this case the second legal system is enforced by way of retaliatory and punitive prosecution as well as threats and intimidation.

That sounds a lot like the police system in Mexico...

quote Originally posted by blackrams: *snip* I am trying to be objective about the information provided.

That's very commendable. I also wondered how he was recording the very first statement the officer said to him, but then I when I heard that he has had numerous encounters with the PD, I assumed that he probably just always has the recorder going when out in public with a weapon.

And if he was setting the police up, good for him! Because from everything that I heard, those police officers NEED to be exposed so that other LEO's can learn from this situation and figure out that behavior like that is not acceptable, and they should be held accountable for it.

Imagine if he didn't have that recorder and the police officer did end up shooting him! How would he have had any recourse? It would have been his word against the police, and we all know how that plays out...

This is just another reason that police need to be recorded during their daily activities. Had that LEO known that he was being recorded, do you think he would have acted the way he did? You know, maybe have taken a look at the civilians license before drawing his own weapon? Or is that S.O.P. to draw your weapon on anyone walking down the street with a sidearm visible?

If he was going about his business with the gun in it's holster there's NO reason for the LEO to act the way he did. If he had it out waving it around, yeah, I could see that kind of reaction. The cop was out of line and should be punished appropriately. If I'm walking around town with my sidearm holstered and not threatening anyone, the ONLY thing I should be questioned about is if I have a personal protection permit, and the interaction can be done without cussing, screaming and weapons drawn.

Theres a video on the right of that one labeled Biddeford Open Carry or something.

Guy that was detained was a real douche bag. Its my hometown and where I live. Cops were nice and he was definitely just out to make a point.
Cliffs are complaint was called in about guy carrying gun. They approached asked for id and proof of permit to carry. Guy flatout refused to comply with tons of douchebag comments. If your carrying a gun on your hip displaying it to the public you should have no issue with proving its legal.

Guns make the public nervous in this day and age. WIth all the atricities being done. Be proud to carry it yes but expect to be questioned and prove it. In texas it may be common but not in maine.

quote Originally posted by HIOSILVER!: Theres a video on the right of that one labeled Biddeford Open Carry or something. Guy that was detained was a real douche bag. Its my hometown and where I live. Cops were nice and he was definitely just out to make a point. Cliffs are complaint was called in about guy carrying gun. They approached asked for id and proof of permit to carry. Guy flatout refused to comply with tons of douchebag comments. If your carrying a gun on your hip displaying it to the public you should have no issue with proving its legal. Guns make the public nervous in this day and age. WIth all the atricities being done. Be proud to carry it yes but expect to be questioned and prove it. In texas it may be common but not in maine.

Texas is one of the few states with no handgun open carry allowed at all. If you're carrying a handgun in public and you're not a cop you're going to jail. They'll do a full felony arrest on you too, slammed face first into the ground, knee ground into the back and neck, the whole shebang. Will probably TASER you too, just for the hell of it. This state didn't even get a concealed carry system until the Luby's Massacre back in 1991. That's what it took to finally get CCW despite decades of trying. Even then, if you're CCW permitted and carrying and your weapon somehow becomes visible you can, and probably will, be arrested since one of the provisions of the CCW law is the requirement to keep it concealed. The wind blows your jacket open? Going to jail. For all the reputation we have WRT guns here, Texas has some of the most regressive gun laws in the nation, and some of the highest hate on the part of police toward citizen gun ownership and transportation.

quote Originally posted by blackrams: Let me consider that for a moment. Someone with a weapon pointed at me tells me to do something. This person also has a badge. I think I'll consider doing it. Without the badge, I'll still consider doing it up to the point that I can adequately defend myself. Kind of depends on the situation don't you think? There is a difference between being courageous and being stupid. BTW, after re-reading the post you responded to, I need to edit it to make it clear.

Refusal to get on ones knees is not a reason for a cop to shoot you, period.

quote Originally posted by HIOSILVER!: Theres a video on the right of that one labeled Biddeford Open Carry or something. Guy that was detained was a real douche bag. Its my hometown and where I live. Cops were nice and he was definitely just out to make a point. Cliffs are complaint was called in about guy carrying gun. They approached asked for id and proof of permit to carry. Guy flatout refused to comply with tons of douchebag comments. If your carrying a gun on your hip displaying it to the public you should have no issue with proving its legal. Guns make the public nervous in this day and age. WIth all the atricities being done. Be proud to carry it yes but expect to be questioned and prove it. In texas it may be common but not in maine.

So exercising your rights is being a "douche bag". I guess I'm a douche bag too then.

I wish you luck if you are ever questioned by the police since you won't be exercising your rights.

Video in question: