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Should We Raise The National Debt Limit ? by cliffw
Started on: 05-16-2011 10:10 AM
Replies: 142
Last post by: cliffw on 08-01-2011 12:43 PM
MstangsBware
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Report this Post07-14-2011 01:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MstangsBwareClick Here to Email MstangsBwareSend a Private Message to MstangsBwareDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Doni Hagan:


http://www.usgovernmentspen...debt_deficit_history


Thanks....So why is this a big deal now? Just because the number has gone higher and they want more....Just looking at the graph this seems to be the norm on how its been down for 40 plus years...

So...Why is it a big deal now?
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Report this Post07-14-2011 01:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianClick Here to Email PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
Topic: Should We Raise The National Debt Limit ?

No

reform "entitlements"
return to reasonable tax rates
wrangle the Pentagon back in
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Old Lar
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Report this Post07-14-2011 02:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Old LarSend a Private Message to Old LarDirect Link to This Post
Stop paying the house and senate members salaries, perks and benefits along with their staff's salaries. When they start cutting their own, maybe I'll settle for some cuts in my "benefits".
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maryjane
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Report this Post07-14-2011 02:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by MstangsBware:

What is the point of keeping up with the amount of $$$ already spent...How long have we had a deficit and why was it not simply payed off when it was only in the millions...It doesnt matter if the amount is only a 100 million or XXX trillion.....it is never going to get paid off......Not in our life time, our kids life time, grandkids, ect.....It is just a number that some one is keeping up with that will never go to 0......

One question....How long have we had a deficit?

That's one way to rationalize it I suppose. The better question, and the more important one, is how long can we sustain a debt that has risen to the magnitude of our current debt in relation to our ability to even make payments on the interest (yield)?
With personal debt, it's ok to have some--even a lot, but if you are unemployed, with nothing or little coming in, it can easily spell disaster. It's one thing when you have a nation with a growing, stable, or booming economy and carry a federal debt that is easily manageable, but when the % of your debt in relation to GDP begins to grow, you are in big trouble. Those who compare now, with the past--are simply looking at apples and oranges. Italy, Ireland, and Greece all said the same things you guys are now saying---total denial--and they each find themselves in semi default, with a junk status soverign debt bond rating, and are going thru immense pain in trying to restructure in order not to have their currency fail. Germany is trying to bail them out, but is balking at the last round of bailouts and we don't even have a Germany to bail us out.

But go ahead--keep rationalizing it--keep denying there's a problem.

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nosrac
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Report this Post07-14-2011 02:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for nosracSend a Private Message to nosracDirect Link to This Post
I say raise it like they have always raised it and did it 7 times during GWB presidency.

It is this political grandstanding BS that really has the country on the wrong track. There is always common ground but not a lot of common sence.

A bad credit rating is NOT a good thing but good things come out of bad situtations.

Well, we will see soon enough what is going to happen and who will loose the blame game.
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Report this Post07-14-2011 02:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by MstangsBware:


Thanks....So why is this a big deal now? Just because the number has gone higher and they want more....Just looking at the graph this seems to be the norm on how its been down for 40 plus years...

So...Why is it a big deal now?


Because what that graph does NOT show, is our ability to repay, which is what all rating companies--whether looking at private or public debt--looks at. That includes foreign bondholders--the buyers of our degt. We are no longer a huge manufactorer, and no longer have the large market share we did in previous decades--and since the rest of the world has caught up with us in virtually every sector, I suspect we never will see that status again. Once the rating agencies downgrade our debt, it costs us more to borrow as a nation, just as a person with a poor cedit rating has to pay a higher interest rate when they borrow compared to what they may have paid when they had really good credit. Once (if) our coveted triple a rating is downgraded, those graphs will look a LOT different and it won't be a positive change. Look at the graphs, note the years when we carried a lot of debt, and consider where we were as a producing nation as compared to day. What, was our rate of economic growth during those times and immediately after? Nothing like it is today, with out 2.8% growth, and most analysts believe current and projected real growth is much less than that.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 07-14-2011).]

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Report this Post07-14-2011 02:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by nosrac:

I say raise it like they have always raised it and did it 7 times during GWB presidency.

It is this political grandstanding BS that really has the country on the wrong track. There is always common ground but not a lot of common sence.

A bad credit rating is NOT a good thing but good things come out of bad situtations.

Well, we will see soon enough what is going to happen and who will loose the blame game.


Who caused it makes no difference at this point. Who and how it will be paid for is the only issue at hand. There's a reason that the president's bipartisan panel made the reccomendations they did last year, and there's a reason that the IMF, China, and the EU ALL have called time and again in the last 2 years for us to get this deficit under control--they can readily see we no longer have the means to sustain an ever growing debt and deficit. Blame whoever ya wish, but it will make little difference in the end.

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MstangsBware
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Report this Post07-14-2011 03:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MstangsBwareClick Here to Email MstangsBwareSend a Private Message to MstangsBwareDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:


But go ahead--keep rationalizing it--keep denying there's a problem.


I agree there is a problem but it has been a problem for how many years.......A problem that has not been worried about until recently.....So why was this not so worried about say 10 years ago...We where still in so much debt that we could not pay it back and now still in the same situation...But all of a sudden everyone wants to start pointing fingers and breaking out there worry sticks.......

I myself do not worry about it....What is going to happen will happen wether I like it or not....wether any of us like it or not....there is nothing that can be done about it...It has been proven that what ever party is voted in as president/goverment they all fell to provide....At this point and the point 10 years ago the dificit will never be paid off.......

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Report this Post07-14-2011 03:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianClick Here to Email PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by MstangsBware:
I agree there is a problem but it has been a problem for how many years.......A problem that has not been worried about until recently.....So why was this not so worried about say 10 years ago...We where still in so much debt that we could not pay it back and now still in the same situation...But all of a sudden everyone wants to start pointing fingers and breaking out there worry sticks.......

I myself do not worry about it....What is going to happen will happen wether I like it or not....wether any of us like it or not....there is nothing that can be done about it...It has been proven that what ever party is voted in as president/goverment they all fell to provide....At this point and the point 10 years ago the dificit will never be paid off.......


is was worried about 10 years ago. But, suddenly - there ws 9/11, and everyone got completely distracted by the excitement of finally getting to go "warring", and then the debt suddenly doubled & tripled while everyone danced around wrapped in flags. and, now that "the wars" are basicly over - them same azzhats are standing around saying they wont pay for them same wars.

[This message has been edited by Pyrthian (edited 07-14-2011).]

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MstangsBware
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Report this Post07-14-2011 03:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MstangsBwareClick Here to Email MstangsBwareSend a Private Message to MstangsBwareDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:


is was worried about 10 years ago. But, suddenly - there ws 9/11, and everyone got completely distracted by the excitement of finally getting to go "warring", and then the debt suddenly doubled & tripled while everyone danced around wrapped in flags. and, now that "the wars" are basicly over - them same azzhats are standing around saying they wont pay for them same wars.



I agree......Why does no one ever mention the amount of money that went into both wars? There where how many billions wasted and for what? How much of this helped raise the deficit?

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Pyrthian
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Report this Post07-14-2011 04:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianClick Here to Email PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by MstangsBware:
I agree......Why does no one ever mention the amount of money that went into both wars? There where how many billions wasted and for what? How much of this helped raise the deficit?


there are graphs posted above by someone showing the basic impact - but - it is not billions - it is trillions. its basicly 75% of the amount in question. the rest is the bailouts.

balanced budget has been a problem for awhile. which is why it was wrestled into shape during the Clinton years. we had it all wrapped up.

perhaps some scale: the budget for JUST our troops Air Conditioning in the middle east exceeds the NASA budget.
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Report this Post07-14-2011 06:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
Aagin, for those stuck in the blame game instead of the fixi it game, the pardigm has changed. In 2001, we were not in a stagnated economy, and were not having to borrow to the extent we are today. In May, we actually reached the debt ceiling, but the Treasury dept borrowed against several other funds to keep the govt running till Aug 2. We are out of options, it's either go into default in 2 weeks or raise the debt ceiling, We then have approx 20 months of borrowing power before it will have to be raised again--IF the economy doesn't falter and IF the Congressional Budget Office doesn't again revise it's figures downward in regards to GDP. We are borrowing at the rate of about $1 trillion/year, with most of it going to service the debt. This, is unsustainable. All it will take, is one bad treasury note sale (monthly and qtrly ) and we're toast. How bad is it? It would take us exactly 24 hrs after Aug 2 to be in default--we will miss a note payment that day and every week afterwards without more borrowing. Completely unsustainable under current and forseeable future economic conditions.

Just breaks of the game that it all came to a head during Obama's watch, but it was inevitable that was going to at some point.

We have to worry about it now, because all the bondholders have realized our spending and borrowing is no longer sustainable on the up side (repayment side) and are getting edgy, just as the IMF has--just as the President's own bi-partisan panel said we should be. Just as the independant Federal Reserve has said we should be. Just as every bondholder and rating agency has said we should be. Just as President Obama has said we should be, and that's the reason he shifted his full time attention to deficit reduction early this year. He realizes we are in deep do-do just as most informed Americans do. The old saying is that you can fool the stock market but you can't fool the bond market.
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cliffw
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Report this Post07-22-2011 12:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cliffwClick Here to Email cliffwSend a Private Message to cliffwDirect Link to This Post
Discretionary spending ? What is it ?
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Formula88
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Report this Post07-22-2011 12:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by MstangsBware:


I agree......Why does no one ever mention the amount of money that went into both wars? There where how many billions wasted and for what? How much of this helped raise the deficit?


It has been mentioned. I don't remember the exact figures off the top of my head, but the entire cost of the wars in both Iraq and Afghanistan are comparable to Obama's deficit for one single year.

People talk about waste here and there or cut this to balance the budget, etc without really understanding the size of the amounts involved.
I've often heard NASA should be cancelled to balance the budget. If you look at every NASA budget since the agency was first formed in 1958 and add them all up, you have about the same amount as Obama's American Reinvestment & Recovery Act. Every NASA science mission, every manned and unmanned flight, all the avation advances - everything - and it's only about as much as 1 year of "shovel ready" jobs.

The debt has been a problem for decades. It's been ignored and pushed off by administrations from both parties. But now when we're in an economic downturn and everyone has to save money, government spending has skyrocketed above and beyond any in the history of this country, and probably the history of the world.

The argument "well, we haven't worred about it yet" begs the question, how far in debt do we go before we do worry about it? When our country's credit collapses and other nations will no longer buy our debt, it'll be too late to fix anything. How close to the abyss do we go before we turn back? Once we start falling, it's too late.
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Report this Post07-22-2011 12:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post

Formula88

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quote
Originally posted by cliffw:

Discretionary spending ? What is it ?


You have a budget for your rent, utilities, food, etc., right?
And a little left over for "walking around money?"

Discretionary spending is the country's "walking around money." Spending not specifically accounted for in the budget.
"Budget" is a bit of a misnomer these days, since we're now into the third year of operating without a budget. Obama has never signed a budget because no budget has ever made it to his desk. The budget Obama & Co. pushed with the glossy covers reading "A New Era of Responsibility: Renewing America's Promise" was defeated in the Senate by a unanimous "nay" vote. Not one single Republican, Democrat, or Independent voted for it.
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Report this Post07-22-2011 12:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianClick Here to Email PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:
It has been mentioned. I don't remember the exact figures off the top of my head, but the entire cost of the wars in both Iraq and Afghanistan are comparable to Obama's deficit for one single year.

People talk about waste here and there or cut this to balance the budget, etc without really understanding the size of the amounts involved.
I've often heard NASA should be cancelled to balance the budget. If you look at every NASA budget since the agency was first formed in 1958 and add them all up, you have about the same amount as Obama's American Reinvestment & Recovery Act. Every NASA science mission, every manned and unmanned flight, all the avation advances - everything - and it's only about as much as 1 year of "shovel ready" jobs.

The debt has been a problem for decades. It's been ignored and pushed off by administrations from both parties. But now when we're in an economic downturn and everyone has to save money, government spending has skyrocketed above and beyond any in the history of this country, and probably the history of the world.

The argument "well, we haven't worred about it yet" begs the question, how far in debt do we go before we do worry about it? When our country's credit collapses and other nations will no longer buy our debt, it'll be too late to fix anything. How close to the abyss do we go before we turn back? Once we start falling, it's too late.


yes...thats why the nat'l debt increases byan average of roughly 1Trillion/year since the wars started.......

and, while riding the NASA comparisons: just the cost for the A/C for the troops in the middle east exceeds the NASA budget

same fools who cried for "the wars" now do not want to pay for them same wars.
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Report this Post07-22-2011 01:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
I want to pay for them, but not with more borrowed $$. That's a fool's errand, and the war cost has little to do with why congress balks at NOT raising the ceiling. If it were just a matter of the war costs, that could be covered easily enough, but it's much much more than that, and it has to do with the aging population and the long standing entitlements and beenies we've adopted over the decades. THAT'S, what really has everyone from the Fed to Treasury in a tither. If the ceiling isn't raised, then raised agin, those payments can't be made no matter if there were never an Iraq/Afghanistan war or not. And, you could tax the reich at 95% and it still wouldn't be enough revenue to cover what's coming down the pike even if the $$ from the wars was back in treasury.
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Report this Post07-22-2011 01:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianClick Here to Email PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:
I want to pay for them, but not with more borrowed $$. That's a fool's errand, and the war cost has little to do with why congress balks at NOT raising the ceiling. If it were just a matter of the war costs, that could be covered easily enough, but it's much much more than that, and it has to do with the aging population and the long standing entitlements and beenies we've adopted over the decades. THAT'S, what really has everyone from the Fed to Treasury in a tither. If the ceiling isn't raised, then raised agin, those payments can't be made no matter if there were never an Iraq/Afghanistan war or not. And, you could tax the reich at 95% and it still wouldn't be enough revenue to cover what's coming down the pike even if the $$ from the wars was back in treasury.


yup. its called taxes. thats how wars get paid for.
the debt was $4T, and the budget was in a surplus in the year 2000.
all would have been well, if left alone.
but, instead - taxes dropped, and "defense" spending shot WAY up.
aging population & entitlements had NOTHING to do with that.
Iraq & Afghanistan have YET to have the first dollar paid for - and their bill is STILL climbing.
those who cried for the wars, are STILL refusing to pay for the wars.
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Report this Post07-22-2011 02:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
I'm all in favor of paying for them, thru much much higher taxes accross the board--individuals, business, corporate, the rich, the poor--everyone, as well as matching cuts in spending and entitlements, and we need to do it now instead of kicking the can down the road to another 2-4 generations.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 07-22-2011).]

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Report this Post07-22-2011 02:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DRAClick Here to visit DRA's HomePageClick Here to Email DRASend a Private Message to DRADirect Link to This Post
Didn't read any of the other posts.

No! Just because you have "always done it in the past" does not mean it's the right thing to do.
Can I go to the Bank and get them to extend more credit to me for payment on pre existing debt?
At some point the whole thing will come crashing down and it may be sooner than we think.
History cannot be denied.
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Report this Post07-28-2011 02:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cliffwClick Here to Email cliffwSend a Private Message to cliffwDirect Link to This Post
Fear not Americans.
Nancy Pelosi says they are "trying to save the world from the Republican plan, so life on this planet will be as we know it", ...
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Report this Post08-01-2011 12:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cliffwClick Here to Email cliffwSend a Private Message to cliffwDirect Link to This Post
WHAT THE FRUCK, ... ?
The debt deal appoints a super congress to cut spending by one trillion in the next ten years ? Talk about kicking the can down the road. It will take us 140 years to pay off our debt, .
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Report this Post08-01-2011 12:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cliffwClick Here to Email cliffwSend a Private Message to cliffwDirect Link to This Post
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