I met some of the meanest people I have ever had the displeasure of talking to today.

While researching a problem with the current car I’m working on I ran across this web site
http://www.iatn.net/

joining sounded like a good idea so I did.

Once I announced to the group in the real time chat section that I do work out of my garage rather than in a 9 to 5 shop they got out the nails and the cross and wanted to crucify me. Claiming that I am taking work away from them.

Man it was ugly.

Ok, I had to vent. I’m done now.

So when they have a problem with their cars, I'm sure they take them to the shop and have them worked on for $80 an hour. Please!

quote Originally posted by buddycraigg: to the group in the real time chat section that I do work out of my garage rather than in a 9 to 5 shop they got out the nails and the cross and wanted to crucify me. Claiming that I am taking work away from them.

If they're worth their salt they ought to have as much work as they can handle, regardless of whether or not you (or anyone else) are working out of a garage.
If they're hurting for business, there's probably a reason.

Or... you just don't know the secret handshake.

Either way... Farg 'em.

Edit - Think we all ought to join?
Collectively, we could probably cause a few of them to totally stroke out!
"Yeah! I have a shop in my basement. I do motor swaps for pizza and beers, and spare Fiero parts!"

On second thought, Naaaah.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 04-27-2007).]

I've been a member of iATN since 1996 or so and can verify that it is a site for PROFESSIONAL mechanics. It is NOT a DIY site and the people hanging in the chat are not there to help you during their workday, it's techs from around the world exchanging information. A bunch of us get together with each other on a regular basis. I've flown to Texas and California several times to get togethers lasting the better part of a week, getting to hang with the very best techs in the world. We develop new techniques, compare equipment side by side, attempt to stump each other and show off new tricks... we even influence how your new car is designed. But no one is there to help the person that isn't a legitimate part of the group that comes in wanting their car fixed. That got overwhelming years ago and you probably noticed the live chat address is very unusual... people don't just stumble in.

Sorry you got blown off but don't feel like your alone, the chat guys will rip ANYONE a new one if they come in looking for silver bullets not having done their homework. They expect you to have checked the basics and be able to supply answers to questions like scan data pids under specific conditions, provide waveforms, measurements etc... They are there to help each other out and relax, if they want to answer backyard wrench requests they do it elsewhere. If you were a mechanic working at a shop and came in with a basic question that you should be able to look up and no testing done, they'd ream you then also. Live chat is NOT that type of a resource.

The site is very specific about that, and you must have ignored the page that states all this to join under false pretenses.

quote Membership Requirements You must be a working automotive professional with at least four years of full time experience or ASE certification. You must also abide by the iATN Member Agreement. iATN Member Agreement As an iATN member I will: * Uphold the highest standards of professionalism, competence, and integrity. * Pursue excellence through ongoing education and the exchange of knowledge and experience with fellow iATN members. * Maintain quality through the use of proper tools, equipment, parts and procedures. * Promote public awareness of the importance of quality professional service and the advancing technology of the modern automobile. * Support and promote the mission and goals of the iATN.

No need to bag on them because you were someplace you didn't belong. Many of us answer plenty of questions for DIY types in other places.

They don't need or want you there because there are over 54K members already in 144 countries... it's not for the general public. The number of people is already overwhelming... I used to read every single post and chat log every day, and answer every single help request daily back when there were about 1500 members. With over 50,000 members posting and chatting none of us can keep up and we aren't being paid to help you. We are doing it to help each other and to learn from each other... but happen to have compiled the most comprehensive database of problems and repairs in existence due to how the system works.

The biggest rules... You are tapping the best of the best, you better be one of them and you better have already done the basics. They don't want to hear that you threw a bunch of parts at a car and it still ain't fixed... they want to know that your doing valid testing and the results of those tests.

Sorry they pissed you off, but your presumption that they owed you anything pisses them off even worse. You intruded on their turf wasting their time and pretty much every person in chat is a member that voluntarily pays a membership fee to support that forum. We are paying to have our place, not a manufacturers place, not a DIY place, not a place controlled by anyone but the technicians that are on it. Alldata, Mitchell, and plenty of others have attempted to buy or duplicate iATN and because of why the owner of the site (Brent Black... the Technician equivalent of Fiero's Cliff Pennock) created it, it's stayed a place for professional technicians with no other entities having control or say.

Have a great day and post your problem here... maybe I can help.

I have a real problem with ASE certification, a real problem.

A buddy of mine in Taxachusettes had a brand new Ford pickup he used for work, a carpenter.

He had brought the truck back to the dealer 5, count them 5 times for a serge on start up.

Now granted this was 20 years ago, but still.

I was in town for my oldest daughters high school graduation and wanted to visit some old friends as I was living it TN at that time.

We went out to the truck and he started it up and sure enough, the engine surged to like 5,000 RPMs.

Being old school myself I knew just exactly what it was.
.
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.
Do you know?
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Wait for it.
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The float was stuck in the Carb., and after start up, or me taping the float bowl with a hammer it was fine.

Now for all those techs at the dealership to know nothing about a carb. Just made me and him mad. If it didn’t have a computer to do half the work for them, they were lost.

Hence my signature, sometime old school and experience is better than all the technology in the world.

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by buddycraigg: Once I announced to the group in the real time chat section that I do work out of my garage rather than in a 9 to 5 shop they got out the nails and the cross and wanted to crucify me. Claiming that I am taking work away from them.

Cant the same thing be said about any business?

yes, every proffesion has its levels.
looks like you stepped into a "elite" group there.

you'll see the same thing anywhere. gaming. IT. advertising. sports.

just picture me putting on skates, and jumping in a Red Wings practice....I'm sure I'd be flat on the ice in seconds, and bleeding in even less time....

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: I closed my shop because the cost of doing business has gotten to high to operate doing the type of work I do as a one man operation, the tooling costs are always going up up up... and we need the correct equipment or you just can't fix the cars anymore. So I found another iATN member shop that hired me on and am happily working on mostly European cars for the most part... except when someone allows something in that we aren't equipped to deal with as far as diagnostic equipment.

Hi Scott,

I just re-read Buddy's post again and I don't see anywhere that he mentioned he was asking any basic (read "dumb") questions or even looking for help/advice. He just said that he mentioned he worked out of his garage. You seemed to have assumed that he ISN'T a professional and doesn't have a business doing this. I don't know if he is or isn't, but just beause he works out of his garage, as you so aptly demonstrated in your post, doesn't mean he isn't as much a professional as the guy with the 100 bay shop.

I have a friend that was crew chief for the Motes & Williams twin engine top fuel rail back in the '70's. He's also been helping them the last couple of years since they brought the car out of retirement and are now running it in the Vintage drag races. He works for the county and always has, as long as I've known him. He taught me more about setting up and tuning the Hilborn/Crower/Kinsler constant flow injection systems than most likely any of the professionals on that forum could ever hope to know. He builds transmissions out of his garage now, in his spare time, and I'd put his knowledge, skills, and professionalism up against anyone. Period.

Unless Buddy chimes in with more information (like he asked how a 4 stroke engine worked or something like that), I'd have to say that regardless of the knowledge on the forum there are at least more than a few that are elitist buttwipes.

John Stricker

Yes, to the above. My experience of Buddycraigg, limited as it might be, is a guy with his head screwed on, has a lot of knowledge, and is a polite young man.And is as keen to share his knowledge with anybody.Hence his innocent quest for knowledge being rebutted rudely or unkindly , would burn a bit. There is NO excuse for being rude or dismissive to ANYBODY, providing they conduct themselves politely, which I don't doubt he did.In my experience, the "Elite" tend to be dismissive of anybody from outside their own echelon...and forget that they too, were once in the same boat.And the Elite who behave that way, have often been found to have feet of clay To think that a single man business could deprive them of any work is absurd, really...maybe it is different here in Spain, but if you want a job done, that REQUIRES specialist knowledge, you had better be prepared for a long wait, because they are inundated with work.No insult to Scott intended by implication or reference Just my experience in other walks of life too.Music,steelwork etc..all have their Elitist communities, and mostly turn out to be simply snob value.
Nick

thanks for the kind words Nick

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: The site is very specific about that, and you must have ignored the page that states all this to join under false pretenses. *********************************************************************************************************** Membership Requirements You must be a working automotive professional with at least four years of full time experience or ASE certification. You must also abide by the iATN Member Agreement. iATN Member Agreement As an iATN member I will: * Uphold the highest standards of professionalism, competence, and integrity. * Pursue excellence through ongoing education and the exchange of knowledge and experience with fellow iATN members. * Maintain quality through the use of proper tools, equipment, parts and procedures. * Promote public awareness of the importance of quality professional service and the advancing technology of the modern automobile. * Support and promote the mission and goals of the iATN. ************************************************************************************************************ No need to bag on them because you were someplace you didn't belong. Many of us answer plenty of questions for DIY types in other places. Have a great day and post your problem here... maybe I can help..

got over 4 years in a shop experience? Check
got ASE certs? Check
one of the professions listed on the sign up page is Parts Specialist, check.
so there were no false pretenses. I am well within the guide lines of being a member.

Their complaint was that I was steeling their work by undercutting what a big shop charges, and I don’t have insurance.

Every tech that I’ve met has done side work at their home before so their beef with me is hypocritical. although when i asked that question some of them said that they have NEVER done it (yeah right!)

And no, I didn’t ask any question. I was just hanging out in chat relaxing before I had to go out to my garage to drop the tranny out of a 97 contour.

[This message has been edited by buddycraigg (edited 04-27-2007).]

Thanks for the clarification Buddycraig. The network is for professionals to exchange info and like you said... hang out. If some guys (and I bet I've got a good idea who they were) are playing the superiority game.. screw em. Just remember there are over 50K more besides those few on the network. I've made a ton of friends on iATN over the years, also have lost a few to deaths. Wish sometimes you could capture a moment in time, 1998 was the time we had our first large get together down in Texas and about 300 of us got to meet for the first time in person.

I used to prostelitize about iATN at other shops and it was amazing to see who got it and who didn't. Now classes 'teach' iATN and for me the glow has worn off as it isn't just a group of techs that want to hang with other techs, and some of the best people I've met through the network have died. With size the number of idiots and jerks goes up... proportion wise it stays about the same, but people will attempt to dominate and make themselves the judge and jury of others right to be there. Those types also tend to break the rules on politeness and professionalism while declaring others unprofessional.

Can you see the equivalent happening here at times? Certain names jump right to the front. Ones that may or may not have a Fiero, but make themselves the judges of everyone else's behavior while acting like an ass themselves.

The silver bullet seekers have driven off a lot of original iATN members, and the judgemental people drive off even more.

But the side work arguement is valid when they are promoting professionalism and improvement in the industry. A shop should be paying their techs enough that they don't work at home. The guys basically stealing gravy work away from their place of employment because "they can do it cheaper" without insurance/licenses/tooling drag the industry down as a whole. Your doctor doesn't say, "Hey, see me after work at my house, I can do that operation for half the price of what it costs here at the clinic".

Good conversation, gotta admit when you posted it I was a bit stunned to see iATN being the target.

it was unpleasent enough for me to kill my account.
i dont need the haten.
i've been able to fix every car i've ever worked on (even if i did take a bath on a few of them) without that website. and i'll continue to do so.

Buddy, a bad apple can ruin the pie. From what Scott says it is a good resource that can be an asset to anyone, umm, qualified. I say give them another chance.

pissed because you are "undercutting" with your hourly rates? are you kidding? that is called capitalism, and it is what 99.99999% of all american companies do. They ship work over to china and india because instead of $7.00 an hour here the people there are happy to get $0.30 an hour.

oh sure i bet he hates you for undercutting HIS prices, but i bet he is tone deff to the cries of the american unemployed workers as he pushes his own cart down the isles filling it with all the goodies Walmart has to offer at low low prices. heh

[This message has been edited by FieroMonkey (edited 04-27-2007).]

there were 37 people listed in chat. i was confronted by about 15 of them with comments that they would not help me if i ever did ask for help. some said they would go one step further and tell others to not help because i am a "cut throat".
most were polite about it, some were rude and tried to belittle me.
no one had anything positive to say.

funny, out of the 60 questions asked in email i recieved yesterday 20 of them i thought to be elementary.

[This message has been edited by buddycraigg (edited 04-27-2007).]

quote Originally posted by buddycraigg: there were 37 people listed in chat. i was confronted by about 15 of them with comments that they would not help me if i ever did ask for help. some said they would go one step further and tell others to not help because i am a "cut throat". most were polite about it, some were rude and tried to belittle me. no one had anything positive to say. funny, out of the 60 questions asked in email i recieved yesterday 20 of them i thought to be elementary.

Not a whole lot different from other net forums. Even in this forum we have "some" folks that espouse their opinions as the gospel.
This is a great forum but every bushel of apples has a few bad apples in it. There may be several folks that don't appreciate your "Business" but if all the facts were known, most of them started out in similar circumstances. They've just forgotten where they came from. I'd stick around and gain what I could from it. Not that it's worth anything but that's my thought.

------------------
Ron
Land of the Free because of the Brave. Most gave some, some gave all. Some ran the other way.

See thats the thing about the big shops though. You cant save any money at them. My beretta lists a hearter core replacement at 5.5 hours or such. Bring it to a big shop that has highly qualified techs and pay 90 bucks an hour? Versus a 1 man shop that I go to that charges 52.50? Not doing it anyway junking the car but the point is there. Am I cheap? Sure am I owned many fieros after all. How many shops if it takes them 3 hours will bill the 3 hours an not the 5.5? I know too many of the people that work in the big shops to take my cars there. Certain items yes. Certain cars? Of course. My shop that I frequent spends a boatload of cash on upgrades to his diagnostic equipment. It never ends. Cars get more complicated every year and thankfully I cant afford them. Or their repair cost. So I dont own any.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: If they're worth their salt they ought to have as much work as they can handle, regardless of whether or not you (or anyone else) are working out of a garage. If they're hurting for business, there's probably a reason.

true, i've worked at 5 dealerships, everyone knew i worked on cars and bikes at home, no one had a problem with it. upper management just said not to solicit any of their customers. and the techs were glad to have a parts guy that turns wrenches cause i know what something is when they ask for it, and if they want a water pump, they are probably going to want the gasket too.

Ive worked out of my own garage for 30 years. Im a professional. Several of the biggest new car dealers in town send me their work. New isnt always better. Ive forgotten more about painting than some of the new ' techs ' have learned in school. I get a kick out of people bringing me their Porsche to get the bumper repainted because the dealer he bought it from screwed it up trying to repaint it. I charge $45@ hour and they charge $120 @ hour. If they have their own little room, thats fine. I dont mind sharing from my experience.

Some of you guys are lucky that most of us PC pros don't feel this way. I lose track of all the "Help me my PC won't boot" type posts are answered (eagerly) by those of us who do that sort of thing professionally every week.
I'm not worried about losing business over those questions. People are only going to do what they're comfortable doing, after that they'll seek out a pro. I figure I'm selling myself every time I answer a question. When people call, I tell them how to do something if they ask. If they can do it, fine, if not, they'll call back and pay me to do it. And even if they don't come for this problem, they'll remember me the next time.
And frankly, education has nothing to do with anything. I don't care if a guy is certified or not. It means zip. Hell, I have a cousin who's getting his doctorate in IT (he already has a masters) and he still calls me for help. I never took a single IT class.
Guys like those fromo that forum need to just get over themselves-they aren't that important.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: I have a real problem with ASE certification, a real problem. *snip*

Certs in most any field only means you were able to take the test.

quote Originally posted by User00013170: Certs in most any field only means you were able to take the test.

and pass it.


EDIT, that reminds me of a joke...
what do you call a person that graduated medical school with all Ds?
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Doctor!

ok, now back to being pissy

[This message has been edited by buddycraigg (edited 04-27-2007).]

They would hate me.
In the last year I did the brakes and repaired the wiring on a friends Chevy dually, repaired the rear hatch on a friends Suburban, replaced the rotors and front axels on my wife's' Honda Accord.
The Honda I took to a shop and the guy tried to up sale me saying the front bearings were bad, I disagreed and took the car home and found the bearings felt like new. Just bad rotors; and I was testing the waters to send him more of my work so I can play with the Fiero more. Whatever, professional shop.

One thing people don't understand about the repair industry is that everyone is trying to make money in the field he or she choose. If your going to work on cars charge what the other guy charges. If a good shop puts rotors and premium pads on every job and are getting 300 an axle, that's what you should be charging. Why make less than the next shop. And I've been a member of iATN since 1997, the rule there is, Don't say you work out of your yard and your training was in parts. I'm mobile and they hate us too. When I converse to them it starts off " a car was dropped off with a no start.....etc. They don't have to know I'm driving my shop to the customers pad. And anyone who thinks shops make too much money, got your own tools and information system and fox your own car. You can train a monkey to fix a car.

quote Originally posted by Kekipi: Don't say you work out of your yard and your training was in parts.

i didn't.
i stated that i was a 9-5 wrench turner for 10 years before i was dragged into parts because the newly hired parts staff didn't know what things were. i found that i enjoyed working in my garage more after an 8 hour day of looking up parts vrs a 10 hour day of turning wrenches. that was 8 years ago
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quote Originally posted by Kekipi: And I've been a member of iATN since 1997, the rule there is, Don't say you work out of your yard and your training was in parts. I'm mobile and they hate us too. When I converse to them it starts off " a car was dropped off with a no start.....etc. They don't have to know I'm driving my shop to the customers pad.

so you've lied to them for 10 years so you can be accepted???

i dont need peers like that.

[This message has been edited by buddycraigg (edited 04-28-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Kekipi: One thing people don't understand about the repair industry is that everyone is trying to make money in the field he or she choose. If your going to work on cars charge what the other guy charges. If a good shop puts rotors and premium pads on every job and are getting 300 an axle, that's what you should be charging. Why make less than the next shop.

Im in business to make money. I do very well at it and totally disagree with you. I charge for an honest repair. Sure Id like to take the $1,000 to paint a hood just like the 'big shops' do...and I do if the insurance company pays it. If I know someone who want to pay it themselves, I can still make good money charging them half of that. I dont believe in ripping people off like the big shops do. Thats the main reason Im still in business...other dont like ripped off either. Look what 'comparable pricing ' does for the price of gasoline. I once paid a dealer to do a 'tuneup' on a V6 van because I just didnt have the time. What did they do....LOOKED at the air cleaner, cleaned 5 spark plugs and replaced one. My cost .... $175.00 thats not happening again. Not too long ago a girl I know got her new Honda trashed by hail. The Honda shop gave her an estimate for new hood, new trunk and repair roof of $6,200....wow. I took the job, put on the same oem hood and trunk, made the car new again for $3,000 and I made $2,000 for 3 days work. She kept $3,000 and got her car fixed and painted with paint that actually will stay on the car...

quote Originally posted by buddycraigg: I met some of the meanest people I have ever had the displeasure of talking to today. While researching a problem with the current car I’m working on I ran across this web site http://www.iatn.net/ joining sounded like a good idea so I did. Once I announced to the group in the real time chat section that I do work out of my garage rather than in a 9 to 5 shop they got out the nails and the cross and wanted to crucify me. Claiming that I am taking work away from them. Man it was ugly. Ok, I had to vent. I’m done now.

The ASE like many organizations is an US & Them club. Unions and other organizations that formed out of necessity when labor laws were unfair to workers are now struggling to define their usefullness and the result is increased beligerence. I am not ASE tech but I know more about Fiero Maintenance than any ASE working in this country today. The fact is, that the ASE is about TODAY'S cars, not yesterdays. Fiero owners like Packard owners or Cord Owners are enthusiasts. The days of driving Fieros as commuter cars is long over. They are collector and enthusiast cars now. The problem is that many techs don't understand this simple fact yet.

Don't let 'em get you down.

quote Originally posted by buddycraigg: and pass it. EDIT, that reminds me of a joke... what do you call a person that graduated medical school with all Ds? Doctor!

Ha, I've heard a similar joke in law school...
Q:What do you call someone that graduates law school with all A's ?
A: A Lawyer
Q: What do you call someone that graduates with all D's ?
A: Your Honor

(Judges are sometimes seen as being unable to cut it as lawyers, not really true, but sometimes. )

Hey buddy don't get me wrong about what I said in my post, I was just generalizing. If I saw parts room at a dealership that's what stands out. The reason I said charge a fair price for a repair is you get a better client charging higher as long as long as you do a professional job and use the best parts. Not lying, bending the truth.
And Roger, not knowing you personally but having read your posts and pictures I think You are a professional shop owner and you don't subscribe to the bottom feeder routine.

quote Originally posted by Kekipi: The reason I said charge a fair price for a repair is you get a better client

HA!!!
85% of my work is on fieros

the rest is personal friends (or god forbid family) waiting in line for me to finish up with a car
there is one guy that is really well off, he brings me all sort of exotic cars that i would normally not have the chance to work on
and they keep coming back, they dont say it's because of the price. they say it's because they dont trust anyone else to work on the car.

and Kekipi, i wasn't offended.

[This message has been edited by buddycraigg (edited 04-28-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Toddster: The ASE like many organizations is an US & Them club. Unions and other organizations that formed out of necessity when labor laws were unfair to workers are now struggling to define their usefullness and the result is increased beligerence.Don't let 'em get you down.

Like Realtors?

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 04-28-2007).]

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: Like Realtors?

FINALLY!!!!! 84fiero123 fires off an effective shot. I'm laughing so hard I'm crying!!!

quote Originally posted by aceman: FINALLY!!!!! 84fiero123 fires off an effective shot. I'm laughing so hard I'm crying!!!

You can stop crying.

I am a licensed General Contractor who has built spec homes for 0ver 10 years. I have an Electrician's license, Plumber's license, B.Sc., 5 Accreditations in Real Estate Investment and sales and I am actually HAPPY to talk to anyone interested in a career in any of these fields. I even have a series of threads here in OT called "Toddsters Real Estate Series" to share my wisdom and experience.

The ASE asshats described above are totally the opposite.

I guess it must be one of those hidden code kinda jokes eh?

[This message has been edited by Toddster (edited 04-29-2007).]

Well I understand why they do not help everyone, its just impossible especially with all the car problems out there. They could have been somewhat helpful and rerouted you to a forum/community that may be able to help. They seem sour toward anyone wanting help, and thats a shame they should have a system setup to atleast refer people to a different site for help.

technicians are some of the most competitive people out there. I am one. Prior to opening my own shop, I did side work one day a week and flagged out over 110 hours a week at the shop I worked for. If any of the other techs were late to work, I would steal their work. If they didn't have the proper tools, I would tell the service manager and the job would become mine. Hell, I even put brake fluid in one techs coffee so he would get sick and I could steal his work.
Now, I have my own shop. I have no problems with my techs doing sidework, but if they take one of my customers, the s**t will hit the fan and they will be jobless. Call it a double standard, but I can't stand this one guy that lives up the street from me. He has a detatched two car garage with two lifts. I wish I knew how to report him to the tax man.
Dave

Just call the local zoning commission......thatll take care of him....unless its zoned commercial.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Just call the local zoning commission......thatll take care of him....unless its zoned commercial.

That's what did George Miller in.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: You can stop crying. I am a licensed General Contractor who has built spec homes for 0ver 10 years. I have an Electrician's license, Plumber's license, B.Sc., 5 Accreditations in Real Estate Investment and sales and I am actually HAPPY to talk to anyone interested in a career in any of these fields. I even have a series of threads here in OT called "Toddsters Real Estate Series" to share my wisdom and experience. The ASE asshats described above are totally the opposite. I guess it must be one of those hidden code kinda jokes eh?

Todd a license to do a specific business does not automatically make someone an expert at that type of business.

As can be proven by your ability to get multiple licenses.

Whether or not you are any good at any of these particular businesses is not something I care about, or even care to find out about.

I have worked for General Contractors that haven’t got a clue what they are doing. Had they not had qualified Real Journeymen in their respected fields, they were out of business very quickly, or they just ripped people off.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: I guess it must be one of those hidden code kinda jokes eh?

As are you.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: 5 Accreditations in Real Estate Investment and sales

Wow you are a salesman, the biggest bunch of crooks in the world today, great. Glad you are proud of that fact.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: "Toddsters Real Estate Series" to share my wisdom and experience.

Ya OK, wisdom and experience, just how old are you Todd? From your picture on you website I’m guessing 30-35, lots of experience.


Get the idea?

I don’t think much of you. Or your so called licenses in the state of Calyfornia.

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 04-30-2007).]