Just curious because I don't think he hears the words that come out of his mouth.
I think its stupid and we should pull out we have messed up the iraqi people enough, they need to start walking on their own feet.


*Flame suit on*

It's a last ditch effort to save face and make something out of this terrible mess. 20,000 troops will be like a a drop in the bucket. There are somewhere between 4-5 million people in Baghdad. We only have about 150,000 troops TOTAL in Iraq. How can we control 30 million people with less than 200,000 troops. Even with this surge we will have less troops than the all time total in this war. Most countries already left the coalition of the willing, and the UN doesn't step foot in Iraq. It's absurd.

I wish it would work and Baghdad would be calmed. But I don't see it.

well...the sucky thing is - I was for the war originally.
and now, the only person who could keep them maniacs inline has been hanged.

now we get to watch Iran suck up what used to be Iraq.

the only hope for democracy in iraq is if we remove the current population, and replace it with one of our choosing. hell, even emptying our prisons into Iraq would make for a safer place to live....and, if we dont - someone else will. the US troops will have to leave one day. NOONE wants to run Iraq. but, there are some salivating nieghbors waiting to take it.

I know it would completely piss off the world - but, at this point we have 2 options: 1> leave Iraq 2> TAKE Iraq. hoist the flag. state 51. completly skip the territory status.

there is not one person in Iraq that is dumb enough to put his head on the block, and say - I am president. the only police or army Iraq has is either dummies that cant do a damn thing, or insurgants, looking for training, weapons, & intellegence.

while i havent heard the plan, ive heard some bipartisan commentary from rep and dem congressmen. from what i can tell, there's nothing new here, more of the same, staying the course with a few flourishes. some parts i agree with, like giving the iraqis more responsibility for and control of their situation. what's called for is a more effective iraqi army and police. if it takes another 20,000 troops to do that maybe it's worthwhile.

I think it will be our last noble attempt to leave the Iraqi people in as good of shape as we can before we get out.

quote Originally posted by Butter: I think it will be our last noble attempt to leave the Iraqi people in as good of shape as we can before we get out.

There is something to be said for that, even if the plan doesn't work. I really don't know if it will work or not. If the number of Iraqi troops is increased like Bush said, they might have a chance.

Probably the best we can hope for is that it's a final push to drive home the Iraqi's need to quell the violence themselves. It may be a better political move to do that and then pull out rather than just pull out while the violence is as bad as it is.

No flames here. Bush has lost touch with reality.
14 % think it's a good Idea.
He plans to add 25,500 troups by extending tours for half that number and early redeploying the other half.
There is only so much our military can take. That just not right.

I think it's time the Iraquis learned to stand on their own feet. We should start pulling our troops out and giving them more of their own responsibilities or they will never learn how not to depend on us to run their country. They have a big uphill battle there, with all the different factions wanting their own piece of power, but that is something they will have to sort out on their own.
We need to step back and only supply them with their armament needs and training. We should no longer be running missions that are theirs to do and that risk our troop's lives.
The congress and the senate could end this "war" right now if they cancelled it's funding. That is how the Vietnam war was finally ended. I don't think we would loose face if we started to pull out right now. We did the job that needed to be done over there, now it is up to their own people to continue what needs to be done for a free democratic Iraq. They need to fight for their own country now if they truly want it.

quote Originally posted by avengador1: I think it's time the Iraquis learned to stand on their own feet. We should start pulling our troops out and giving them more of their own responsibilities or they will never learn how not to depend on us to run their country. They have a big uphill battle there, with all the different factions wanting their own piece of power, but that is something they will have to sort out on their own. We need to step back and only supply them with their armament needs and training. We should no longer be running missions that are theirs to do and that risk our troop's lives. The congress and the senate could end this "war" right now if they cancelled it's funding. That is how the Vietnam war was finally ended. I don't think we would loose face if we started to pull out right now. We did the job that needed to be done over there, now it is up to their own people to continue what needs to be done for a free democratic Iraq. They need to fight for their own country now if they truly want it.

Well that certainly is a much different perspective than your previous. Even the faithful can only turn a blind eye for so long. Nice to hear from you John.

Too little, too late.

I said we needed a surge months ago. It's now degraded to the point where I don't think anything we do can help. Like I said before, at the end of the day, Al Sadr will own Iraq, and it will be a theocracy. Al Malaki will be booted out or killed in the coup.

September 6 2006:

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: I think we should stop footsying around, and send in troops. Lots of troops. 100,000 more. Get the insurgency under control by pummeling them into the ground. Get the Iraqi troops to step up. They need more motivation. Find a way to do it. Use the oil money to pay them high salaries. Of critical importance is to find a way to create stability between the Suni and Shi'ites. I don't have a solution there, but there is a way to stop this back and forth bombing. I'll leave it to the higher ups to figure it out.

I would like to add one additional thing... Right now they are highly divided. They need to be unified. One of the best ways to unify people is to give them a common enemy. This enemy doesn't necessarily have to be real. Read into that what you want....

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 01-12-2007).]

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Too little, too late. I said we needed a surge months ago. It's now degraded to the point where I don't think anything we do can help. Like I said before, at the end of the day, Al Sadr will own Iraq, and it will be a theocracy. Al Malaki will be booted out or killed in the coup.

Yeah, that sounds about right. If we didn't invade at all, I bet a similar situation would have played out once Saddam's influence started waning; which it was after being under sanctions for a decade. We just sped up the process and sacrificed ourselves.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Too little, too late. I said we needed a surge months ago. It's now degraded to the point where I don't think anything we do can help. Like I said before, at the end of the day, Al Sadr will own Iraq, and it will be a theocracy. Al Malaki will be booted out or killed in the coup.

I think You and many more are too quick to give up or maybe don't see the advantages of letting it get real dirty before you clean house again. You get more dirt that way.

Sometimes you gotta let the fox in the hen house to get a good shot at him.

quote Originally posted by connecticutFIERO: Yeah, that sounds about right. If we didn't invade at all, I bet a similar situation would have played out once Saddam's influence started waning; which it was after being under sanctions for a decade. We just sped up the process and sacrificed ourselves.

Tell that to the Cubans..

It does sound like behind all the pretty polite words we've come down pretty hard on the Iraq leadership and said put up, or we pull out.
(Need to find that diplospeek to english dictonary)

the problem is Iraq (or whatever they will call it) CANNOT stand on its own feet. the neighboring countries WILL take it. it has been CLEARLY shown how to beat the USA in a war: dont fight it. take off the uniforms, and go home. as soon as the americans leave - get back to work. all we are doing right now is giving them technology & tactics. the US armed forces are punching bags & practice targets.
if you want to win a war - you have to be willing to kill the people. we are not. they are.

quote Originally posted by Butter: I think You and many more are too quick to give up or maybe don't see the advantages of letting it get real dirty before you clean house again.

Ounce of prevention, pound of cure.

Right now we're at the "metric ton" of cure. We don't have the resources to compete with Al Sadr, the insurgents, and the random people who show up to blow themselves up.

Thanks for the capitalization though. Makes me feel important.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Thanks for the capitalization though. Makes me feel important.

I Do respect your opinion and I can understand your position.

quote Originally posted by Uaana: Tell that to the Cubans.. It does sound like behind all the pretty polite words we've come down pretty hard on the Iraq leadership and said put up, or we pull out. (Need to find that diplospeek to english dictonary)

I agree. Sanctions haven't gotten rid of Castro, and I'm pretty sure Saddam would have been better able to withstand the sanctions. He was making bank with the Oil for Food scandal (not to mention Kofi, et al who were getting rich off it). He was getting weapons from Germany, France and Russia. All sanctions would have done, IMO, is cripple the populace until Saddam died of old age.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: I agree. Sanctions haven't gotten rid of Castro, and I'm pretty sure Saddam would have been better able to withstand the sanctions. He was making bank with the Oil for Food scandal (not to mention Kofi, et al who were getting rich off it). He was getting weapons from Germany, France and Russia. All sanctions would have done, IMO, is cripple the populace until Saddam died of old age.

Interesting then how we were able to force no fly zones that allowed the Kurds to carve out their own semi autonomous country. Look at the state of their infrastructure, oil industry, and supposed weapons and military capability that they were in when we invaded. They were already nearly a dead country. Castro is still in power because he was able to do business enough to provide free medical care, education, and even rent and food for the population. Apples and oranges my friend. I'm not saying he wouldn't be able to hold on to power for a good while longer, I just think he would eventually have been toppled, or died.

quote Originally posted by connecticutFIERO: Interesting then how we were able to force no fly zones that allowed the Kurds to carve out their own semi autonomous country. Look at the state of their infrastructure, oil industry, and supposed weapons and military capability that they were in when we invaded. They were already nearly a dead country. Castro is still in power because he was able to do business enough to provide free medical care, education, and even rent and food for the population. Apples and oranges my friend. I'm not saying he wouldn't be able to hold on to power for a good while longer, I just think he would eventually have been toppled, or died.

If by eventually you're talking about decades, you may be right. Saddam probably wouldn't have lived more than another 20 or 30 years, tops.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: If by eventually you're talking about decades, you may be right. Saddam probably wouldn't have lived more than another 20 or 30 years, tops.

Even so, fine by me.

Hmm. Questions I'd like answered is, "When did Pres. Bush realize, the war in Iraq wasn't headed in the right direction"? Did Pres. Bush realize the situation only after the November elections or was the number of troops being killed? I should hope his awareness was do to the number of servicemen dieing. If that is the case, IMO Bush's GREAT PLAN is a "do or die" situation or as the media buts it, "a Hail Mary." As for the Iraq people, I do hope it works and that they as a people hold-up they're end of the bargain. In 8-10 months will see if Bush's paln will work???

quote Originally posted by avengador1: I think it's time the Iraquis learned to stand on their own feet. We should start pulling our troops out and giving them more of their own responsibilities or they will never learn how not to depend on us to run their country. They have a big uphill battle there, with all the different factions wanting their own piece of power, but that is something they will have to sort out on their own. We need to step back and only supply them with their armament needs and training. We should no longer be running missions that are theirs to do and that risk our troop's lives. The congress and the senate could end this "war" right now if they cancelled it's funding. That is how the Vietnam war was finally ended. I don't think we would loose face if we started to pull out right now. We did the job that needed to be done over there, now it is up to their own people to continue what needs to be done for a free democratic Iraq. They need to fight for their own country now if they truly want it.

Well put. I guess we had to do something. What were doing now isn't working so it was either give up and pull out or add more troops to get it done. I wish we have started to pull out but unfortunatly George doesn't agree with me or the majority of the country.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: if you want to win a war - you have to be willing to kill the people. we are not. they are.

You just summed up this whole war.

quote Originally posted by tutnkmn: You just summed up this whole war.

That's not exactly true. We have killed tens of thousands of them, tortured them even. The difference is our goals. They are trying start their own country, which involves pushing us out by any cost necessary, we are trying to prop up a secular government at minimal cost to ourselves. It's isn't our country and we are not willing to fight to the death, it is their country and they are willing to fight to the death.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: ...if you want to win a war - you have to be willing to kill the people. we are not. they are.

quote Originally posted by tutnkmn: You just summed up this whole war.

That's kind of my take on it, too.
We're trying to be too "politically correct" and not hurt anybodys feelings. And we're too unwilling to play dirty.
We ought to be "playing" by the same rules that they are.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 01-12-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Raydar: That's kind of my take on it, too. We're trying to be too "politically correct" and not hurt anybodys feelings. And we're too unwilling to play dirty. We ought to be "playing" by the same rules that they are.

Not really.
If that were the case Hitler would have won. He didn't.
What rules would you adopt that they are using? Suicide bombers? IEDs? Start fighting among our units?

You can't win a war where the enemy is embedded with the populous and you wear uniforms. No none can.

But this is now even more complicated since it has become a civil war. It's not just between Sunni and Shea. It's also Shea on Shea and Sunni on Sunni. It's posturing for power in the post saddam Iraq.
As an occupying force we are responsible for security and we can't provide that.
No one could at this point. They are now organized with three plus years experience.
The only possible solution will have to be worked out between these factions and will be . Our presence will only prolong the resulting solution.
It's such a cluster**** now there's not really a good solution.

At first, I was all for going in, deposing Saddam, and making sure there weren't any WMD. But I didn't want us sticking around after that, and this administration doesn't hear all the liberals AND conservatives AND people who stay away from politics altogether, who don't want us there... period.

I'm one of those who believe the Iraqi people don't understand democracy or true freedom, and they don't WANT to, and after we leave they will drop democracy like a hot rock.

Any plan is better than pulling out and surrendering.

Time to move forward.

Mission Accomplished^TM
Stay the Course^TM
The Way Forward^TM

And now, for those of you who think it can't get any worse (including those on their 3rd tour), the official catch phrase for 2007 will be:

Drop Trou', Grab Ankles^TM

quote Originally posted by Raydar: That's kind of my take on it, too. We're trying to be too "politically correct" and not hurt anybodys feelings. And we're too unwilling to play dirty. We ought to be "playing" by the same rules that they are.

So we should be killing innocent civilians, taking hostages, doing random bombings? And beheadings? Really? It's bad enough that some of our soldiers freelance and act like barbarians--you really want our government to take the position that barbarism is okay?

Sending in another 20,000 soldiers isn't going to change anything, just subject more of our young people to "cannon fodder" syndrome. I think that there should be a law that if a President is convinced enough that we need to go to war, then HIS kids should be among the first to go, and keep going for the duration. Jenna and Barbie are living the life of rich brats, btw, like Paris Hilton, but without all the publicity. I think it's pretty appalling & revolting.

I think that George the Second, should listen to the will of the people--we expressed out opinion about the war pretty convincingly with the last election. But the Man who thinks he's King doesn't need to listen to what we think. Between the Baker/Hamilton commision and the election, we gave him the perfect opportunity to start removing our troops--and he has rejected it. He could have laid the blame on us--started a phased withdrawal.

And this isn't a liberal vs conservative thing--Sen. Chuck Hagel is a Nebraska Republican & Vietnam Vet who counts himself as a strong conservative. He and I probably would disagree about more things than we would agree on--but he is strongly against the Iraq war & the "surge", calling it the worst foriegn policy mistake since Vietnam. (I liked Harry Reid's answer, "It's the worst foreign policy mistake in US history")

Self annointed conservative types (or vile, venomous knee jerk reactionaries) consider this: if we're still F***ing around in Iraq when the next election comes around, the Dems will end up in strong control of both houses and the presidency. And the soldiers will be out in 180 days.

Wasn't the Democrats screaming for the past few years that we don't have enough troops there? Wasn't it the Democrats that grilled Rumsfeld for not sending more troops in Iraq?

All of a sudden, things turn. It's all political and has nothing to do with military strategy (on part of the Democrats or defecting Republicans are saying).

Honestly! If Bush wanted more troops in Iraq, he should have played reverse psychology on the Democrats and just say that he's going to withdrawl troops. The Democrats would then say he is stupid and out of his mind and what we need is more troops in Iraq. Easy as that. What ever you want to do, say the opposite so the Democrat Party can oppose everything you say.

The worse part of this is that the Democrats are making a huge deal about 20,000 more troops and how that will turn into a blunder and we will be stretch thin. I'm sure the Chinese are looking at us like a bunch of whimps. "The USA can't stomach sending in 20,000 more troops? Hell! We can send 20 million without any problems."

Yeah! We're in big trouble. Not because of Iraq, because how pathedic and weak we look in front of the world. Thanks Dems!

quote Originally posted by Wichita: Wasn't the Democrats screaming for the past few years that we don't have enough troops there? Wasn't it the Democrats that grilled Rumsfeld for not sending more troops in Iraq?

Link?

Past few years? I highly doubt that, but if it's true, they had more insight towards the true situation than Rumsfeld or Bush. As far as I'm aware, no democrats have been FOR more troops... could be wrong. I'll wait for the link.

quote Honestly! If Bush wanted more troops in Iraq, he should have played reverse psychology on the Democrats and just say that he's going to withdrawl troops.

Yeah right... You obviously don't know Bush's intelligy^TM.

We should have nuked em into oblivion 4 years ago and been done with it.

I did however, hear one solution today. Let the Iraqis vote. Either yes we stay and help, or no we pack up and leave in the morning. Sounds like a plan to me. Hopefully both sides kill themselves all off and the rest of the world could move on.

we need a better plan. more troops with the same plan may not help. my feelings about the administration aside, i'd like to see something positive come out of this other than getting saddam's family out of power.

given that the current strategy doesnt seem to be working, how could the US (with or without "surge") positively influence the outcome? would it help to get out of the cities and let the iraqi government handle them? can they handle the cities? if we try to secure the borders, would this (1) get us out of the line of fire (2) stop the flow of fighters and munitions?

i know we tried (and failed) to do this in VN, but we dont have the ho chi minh trail and mekong delta to deal with here. could the kurds secure the mountainous north? could we secure the border with iran and syria? would the saudis secure theirs? how many troops would it take? shouldnt we have been asking these questions in 2002 or 2003?

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: I did however, hear one solution today. Let the Iraqis vote. Either yes we stay and help, or no we pack up and leave in the morning.

Best idea I've heard all year.

quote Originally posted by Wichita: The worse part of this is that the Democrats are making a huge deal about 20,000 more troops and how that will turn into a blunder and we will be stretch thin. I'm sure the Chinese are looking at us like a bunch of whimps. "The USA can't stomach sending in 20,000 more troops? Hell! We can send 20 million without any problems." Yeah! We're in big trouble. Not because of Iraq, because how pathedic and weak we look in front of the world. Thanks Dems!

Scary isn't it.

Let's cut more military budgets.
Man if it were up to me the two biggest expenses this country would have is military and education. China is so gonna make us suck it and I they are gonna pull your hair when they do.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Let the Iraqis vote. Either yes we stay and help, or no we pack up and leave in the morning.

what, you mean like... democracy?

And if they vote for us to stay?

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: the problem is Iraq (or whatever they will call it) CANNOT stand on its own feet. the neighboring countries WILL take it. it has been CLEARLY shown how to beat the USA in a war: dont fight it. take off the uniforms, and go home. as soon as the americans leave - get back to work. all we are doing right now is giving them technology & tactics. the US armed forces are punching bags & practice targets. if you want to win a war - you have to be willing to kill the people. we are not. they are.

agree. very much agree. to win a war of this nature we need to be able to do what we need to do. but instead we are taking a half-assed approach to it, in order to not offend the UN. if they dont like us or what we are doing then stop taking our f*cking money. we should be able to retaliate against the insurgents firing at us from within mosques and hospitals. but we dont, because it might hurt someones feelings. we've stuck ourselves in this circle of them asking us to help them, and then we help them and they yell at us for "sticking our noses" in things that dont concern us. then the next time we dont do anything and they yell at us "oh why dont you do something about this besides sit and watch" i say US out of the UN, and UN out of the US. its just a big vat of hot air and all they accomplish is taking our money and bashing us for what we do or not do.

sometimes to make an omelet you gotta break some eggs. we would've lost WAYY less troops in Iraq and Afghanistan if the troops were allowed to do what was needed, which was go in and kill the bastards. almost seems like the revolutionary war all over again in the sole respect that they are using guerilla tactics and saving their skins, while we are doing the "honorable" thing and fighting napoleonic-style, getting our asses shot off. political correctness and our obsession with what other pissant countries think of us will be the downfall of this country. mark my words.