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Q for Religous types by Pyrthian
Started on: 09-28-2006 04:14 PM
Replies: 126
Last post by: frontal lobe on 10-11-2006 01:10 PM
Pyrthian
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Report this Post10-04-2006 10:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianClick Here to Email PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JohnnyK:
Well it means either they have no god (wait, how did they get there then), or there is a different god for every planet, OR, there is no god. Seems kind of funny to make a universe and populate one planet.


no, this is only the christ people - most other god people leave this open.

and, its not that outragous to think that Earth is the only planet with people. again - for another thread - start it, and I'll answer
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frontal lobe
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Report this Post10-04-2006 11:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for frontal lobeClick Here to Email frontal lobeSend a Private Message to frontal lobeDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JohnnyK:

Seems kind of funny to make a universe and populate one planet.



Having created so many universes yourself, and having done it differently, I can see why you would say that.


That comes across as REALLY snide or insulting, and I know that and I almost deleted it. But I didn't because saying it that way makes a point. And I am hoping that putting this statement in the context of our previously (and hopefully ongoing!) friendly relationship let's you give me the benefit of the doubt that I don't intend it to be snide or insulting. Because what I am really trying to get across by saying it that way is, "What makes that seem kind of funny?" It doesn't strike me as peculiar or not peculiar. But, different backgrounds and viewpoints. That is what makes the forum fun.


Pyrthian, you are right. Jesus is a my-way-or-the-highway God. (I don't mean that irreverently. That is a common way to say things in 2006 U.S. culture.) A lot of people have heard the verse: I am THE way (...the truth and the life). No man cometh unto the Father but by me.

Scott-Wa,

I am not sure what you are referring to with the rewriting and reinterpretation and adding things of "your religion". Messiah IS mentioned, and as I posted previously, look in Isaiah 52-55. The Messiah was supposed to be the HUMAN, once-and-for-all sacrifice for payment of sins that the animal sacrifices were supposed to PICTURE for the people. The jewish people were instructed that the actual sacrificing of the animals didn't take care of their sins. They were instructed that it was a visual representation of what God would some day provide in human form to die to take away their sins. You keep focusing on the KINGLY messiah, which was what the jews also did. They INTENTIONALLY refused to see the Messiah in his suffering, sacrificial role. Since that is prophesied abundantly throughout the Torah and prophet writings, I don't understand what you are saying. But I am happy to consider what you are referring to. I just don't know what that is.

I have read the Bible cover to cover over 20 times. I have read some of the koran.

The problem is that Taijiguy keeps wondering about "common Christianity". I would guess (and why wouldn't you) that the people you are referring to that are not well read, is that same group. My church meets Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night. There is a Saturday morning men's group. There are other meeting times. Each has a different study going on. People are SUPPOSED to be reading and studying. Intellectual and theological curiosity is EXPECTED. I guess that is not "common". OK. I don't know. I don't keep a pulse on and defend what is going on in "common Christianity". Your accusation of those people is probably very correct.

Regarding your question, if I get this one wrong, I will be suffering eternal punishment after I die. I don't intend on getting it wrong with the stakes that high.

Again, interesting thread, conversation, and viewpoints. Even if I disagree with them, it is helpful for me to know what other people are thinking. I don't try to be myopic, but with work, etc. going on, that takes a lot of focus and I don't have a lot of time to hear what people are thinking.
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JohnnyK
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Report this Post10-04-2006 12:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnnyKClick Here to Email JohnnyKSend a Private Message to JohnnyKDirect Link to This Post
Seems 'kind of funny' should have been worded "Seems improbable." And no, the bible doesn't mention them per say. But it does mention 'his image'. I'm just giving a for instance. If we did find them, then?
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frontal lobe
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Report this Post10-04-2006 12:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for frontal lobeClick Here to Email frontal lobeSend a Private Message to frontal lobeDirect Link to This Post
I get it, now. Thanks for clarifying, because I really want to understand you precisely and didn't on the first reading. I can absolutely appreciate that viewpoint.
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Formula88
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Report this Post10-04-2006 12:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post
God is all things, right?
Omnipotent. Beyond our capability to understand.

So, in creating the heavens and the Earth, why is it so hard to belive He created more than 1 planet with life? They might also be in His image. That might mean humanoid, like us, or something totally alien - because God can be all things, another species might simply be another facet of His image.

Maybe there are other planets were "man" (or whatever creature He made in His image) didn't fall from grace.

Maybe it's part of His plan for us to learn about ourselves here until we've advanced enough to travel out to meet our brothers on other planets. Maybe they will journey here first.

It's not so much harder to believe than different races of humans all on various coninents on one planet. Once you've made the leap of faith that God created all the universe, it's easy to believe he created more life than just this one planet.
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Pyrthian
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Report this Post10-04-2006 01:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianClick Here to Email PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:
Maybe there are other planets were "man" (or whatever creature He made in His image) didn't fall from grace.


an amazing thought there, dude!

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86fierofun
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Report this Post10-04-2006 01:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86fierofunSend a Private Message to 86fierofunDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JohnnyK:

Seems 'kind of funny' should have been worded "Seems improbable." And no, the bible doesn't mention them per say. But it does mention 'his image'. I'm just giving a for instance. If we did find them, then?


Call the MIB

I'm not going to worry about it. My fate is sealed in Christ.

Thank you frontal lobe for that very well said answer. I typed mine out in a rush intending to elaborate further later. Not much more to say now. Like I said, Romans does a very good job showing (written to devoute jews of the time) that Jesus was the Messiah. The fact that some jews didn't accept Jesus as the Messiah at the time of his death and resurection shouldn't be surprising. There has been groups of jews that have rejected God and those he sent to him time and time again, not looking to God's word, but to the ways of the foreign gods, their own cast gods, and their own appointed "preists". Now not all were like that, but there were those who chose to rebel. The jews that did not accept God at the time of Christ are what led to Jews today. The Jews who beleived at the time of Christ led to the Christians today.

Oh, and both Isaiah and Psalms are filled with references to the messiah, as both the son of God and as coming in the human form. Look also at the first verses in Genesis. God refers to himself as "we" as in the triune God. So the idea of Jesus being the son of God is not something new that christians came up with, this was profecied (sp?) in the old testement and declaired by God.
 
quote
Genesis 1:26
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."


Also, note Genesis 18

and Romans 10
and Isaiah 6 take note of
 
quote
Isaiah 9:6
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
that makes reference to the Messiah and refers to him as a human ("For to us a child is born") and God ("Mighty God")


I hope this helps.
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frontal lobe
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Report this Post10-04-2006 02:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for frontal lobeClick Here to Email frontal lobeSend a Private Message to frontal lobeDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:

So, in creating the heavens and the Earth, why is it so hard to belive He created more than 1 planet with life?

might also

might mean

might simply be

Maybe there are

Maybe it's part

Maybe they will



I agree with you. Not hard at all to believe that.

Lots of mights and maybes, and that is fun to consider. It is just that I have no credible or reliable way of knowing. That is as opposed to what I have that I can evaluate for credibility or reliability, which is the Bible. Someone else might evaluate the credibility or reliability of the Bible, and conclude that it is neither. Then with the scientific evidence available to us in 2006, my conclusion is that there is no evidence to suggest your scenarios, but on the other hand I don't see any scientific evidence that absolutely refutes the scenarios, either.
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AV8DAY
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Report this Post10-04-2006 02:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AV8DAYClick Here to Email AV8DAYSend a Private Message to AV8DAYDirect Link to This Post
Posted by Frontal Lobe (cool screen name BTW)
'missionaries are only supposed to be going and PRESENTING the above specifics (which are known as 'the gospel'). Then an individual is supposed to make a free will decision to act on it, and then God does the "converting. A fine distinction but...".

Well, if this is true it does not bode well for the religious folk of today does it.
If this is true and you were baptised as an infant; You're a goin' to hell. T.S. Game over, man! ; )
How can an infant make a free will decision to act on it, or to accept God, infants barely have a concept of self or I , nevermind agreeing to worship Jesus as thier lord and savoir who died on the cross for thier sins.
Best find ye ditch and baptize thy ADULT self, and save ye soul.

[This message has been edited by AV8DAY (edited 10-04-2006).]

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Pyrthian
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Report this Post10-04-2006 02:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianClick Here to Email PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
while I love the banter - the thread is bobbling away
"what becomes of those who never were exposed to the christ?"
tho, the off world stuff was a fun angle and worth some exploration

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AV8DAY
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Report this Post10-04-2006 02:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AV8DAYClick Here to Email AV8DAYSend a Private Message to AV8DAYDirect Link to This Post
while I love the banter - the thread is bobbling away
"what becomes of those who never were exposed to the christ?"
tho, the off world stuff was a fun angle and worth some exploration

Hasn't this been answer? They are doomed. They have not accepted God as thier savior (for whatever reason) and so to hell they go.

So much for omnifiscence, (that God is all good, or perfected love) eh.
Or perhaps he's just selfish and reserves his perfect love for believers(sheep) only.

"Religion is just an opiate for the masses" Marx (I believe)
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frontal lobe
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Report this Post10-04-2006 03:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for frontal lobeClick Here to Email frontal lobeSend a Private Message to frontal lobeDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by AV8DAY:

Posted by Frontal Lobe (cool screen name BTW)
'missionaries are only supposed to be going and PRESENTING the above specifics (which are known as 'the gospel'). Then an individual is supposed to make a free will decision to act on it, and then God does the "converting. A fine distinction but...".

Well, if this is true it does not bode well for the religious folk of today does it.
If this is true and you were baptised as an infant; You're a goin' to hell. T.S. Game over, man! ; )
How can an infant make a free will decision to act on it, or to accept God, infants barely have a concept of self or I , nevermind agreeing to worship Jesus as thier lord and savoir who died on the cross for thier sins.
Best find ye ditch and baptize thy ADULT self, and save ye soul.




You are exactly correct. The Bible NEVER says one word about baptizing infants.

You are exactly correct. In order to "believe", you need to do 3 things. First, you need to be able to intellectually comprehend the issues. Second, even intellectually understanding the issues, you have to accept them as also being true. Just because you understand something doesn't mean you accept it as the truth. For example, I understand greek mythology. I just don't accept it as true.
Third, you would then have to place your dependence on what you understood and accepted as true.

Since an infant hasn't developed enough to get to the first step, which is intellectuall understand it, they have no capability whatsoever to exercise a free will choice. So baptism has NOTHING to do with going to heaven. But it doesn't have anything to do with an adult going to heaven, either.

Yet, since a lot of the religious folk of the day are depending on their infant baptism as their way to heaven, yes, those folks are in big trouble.

Regarding God being selfish, no he doesn't reserve his perfect love for only believers. He is limited from expressing it to people because he won't force himself on them, and is waiting for their free will invitation to express it.

Good comments.
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Report this Post10-04-2006 03:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AV8DAYClick Here to Email AV8DAYSend a Private Message to AV8DAYDirect Link to This Post
Does the bible mention baptism at all?
Or is this just a costum made up by the church and then raised to the point of bieng equal to God's words?
If it's not mentioned in the bible why does the church place so much emphasis on it? And would those who have propagated this belief be doomed to hell since they are adding to Gods words?
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Report this Post10-04-2006 03:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by frontal lobe:


I agree with you. Not hard at all to believe that.

Lots of mights and maybes, and that is fun to consider. It is just that I have no credible or reliable way of knowing. That is as opposed to what I have that I can evaluate for credibility or reliability, which is the Bible. Someone else might evaluate the credibility or reliability of the Bible, and conclude that it is neither. Then with the scientific evidence available to us in 2006, my conclusion is that there is no evidence to suggest your scenarios, but on the other hand I don't see any scientific evidence that absolutely refutes the scenarios, either.


So, why do you require scientific proof that God may have created other worlds, and you don't require any scientific proof that He created this one?
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Formula88
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Report this Post10-04-2006 03:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post

Formula88

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Member since Jan 2001
 
quote
Originally posted by AV8DAY:

Does the bible mention baptism at all?
Or is this just a costum made up by the church and then raised to the point of bieng equal to God's words?
If it's not mentioned in the bible why does the church place so much emphasis on it? And would those who have propagated this belief be doomed to hell since they are adding to Gods words?


Jesus was baptised by John the Baptist. So yes, it's mentioned in the Bible.
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Report this Post10-04-2006 03:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86fierofunSend a Private Message to 86fierofunDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by AV8DAY:

Does the bible mention baptism at all?
Or is this just a costum made up by the church and then raised to the point of bieng equal to God's words?
If it's not mentioned in the bible why does the church place so much emphasis on it? And would those who have propagated this belief be doomed to hell since they are adding to Gods words?


 
quote
Matthew 28:19:20
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
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Report this Post10-04-2006 03:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoondawgClick Here to Email BoondawgSend a Private Message to BoondawgDirect Link to This Post
"At present the most usual argument for the existence of an intelligent God is drawn from deep inward conviction and feelings which are experienced by most persons. But it cannot be doubted that Hindoos, Mahomedans and others might argue in the same manner and with equal force in favour of the existence of one God, or of many Gods, or as with the Buddhists of no God.
This argument would be a valid one, if all men of all races had the same inward conviction of the existence of one God; but we know this is very far from being the case. Therefore I cannot see that such inward convictions and feelings are of any weight as evidence of what really exists." ~ Charles Darwin

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Report this Post10-04-2006 03:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86fierofunSend a Private Message to 86fierofunDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:


So, why do you require scientific proof that God may have created other worlds, and you don't require any scientific proof that He created this one?


There is, and I have posted it before, but I don't see the necessity to go into that right now (last time it was a discussion that went in circles, with no real point or purpose). I believe God's word, with or without "scientific" proof. But there is proof to back it up. A lot of it is based on facts widely known and used by evolutionists. It all depends on your faith on how you interpret the facts. Just as how scientists could come to very different conclusions at an archiological site from the same facts based on what they believe.
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Report this Post10-04-2006 03:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86fierofunSend a Private Message to 86fierofunDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Boondawg:

"At present the most usual argument for the existence of an intelligent God is drawn from deep inward conviction and feelings which are experienced by most persons. But it cannot be doubted that Hindoos, Mahomedans and others might argue in the same manner and with equal force in favour of the existence of one God, or of many Gods, or as with the Buddhists of no God.
This argument would be a valid one, if all men of all races had the same inward conviction of the existence of one God; but we know this is very far from being the case. Therefore I cannot see that such inward convictions and feelings are of any weight as evidence of what really exists." ~ Charles Darwin


To Darwin:
 
quote
Job 38:2-41,40:6-14
2 "Who is this that darkens my counsel
with words without knowledge?

3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.

5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?

6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone-

7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels [a] shouted for joy?

8 "Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,

9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,

10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,

11 when I said, 'This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt'?

12 "Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,

13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?

14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.

15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.

16 "Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?

17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the shadow of death [b] ?

18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.

19 "What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?

20 Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?

21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!

22 "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail,

23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle?

24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?

25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm,

26 to water a land where no man lives,
a desert with no one in it,

27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass?

28 Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew?

29 From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens

30 when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?

31 "Can you bind the beautiful [c] Pleiades?
Can you loose the cords of Orion?

32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons [d]
or lead out the Bear [e] with its cubs?

33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set up God's [f] dominion over the earth?

34 "Can you raise your voice to the clouds
and cover yourself with a flood of water?

35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, 'Here we are'?

36 Who endowed the heart [g] with wisdom
or gave understanding to the mind [h] ?

37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens

38 when the dust becomes hard
and the clods of earth stick together?

39 "Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
and satisfy the hunger of the lions

40 when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in a thicket?

41 Who provides food for the raven
when its young cry out to God
and wander about for lack of food?


6 Then the LORD spoke to Job out of the storm:

7 "Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

8 "Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?

9 Do you have an arm like God's,
and can your voice thunder like his?

10 Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.

11 Unleash the fury of your wrath,
look at every proud man and bring him low,

12 look at every proud man and humble him,
crush the wicked where they stand.

13 Bury them all in the dust together;
shroud their faces in the grave.

14 Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you.



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Pyrthian
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Report this Post10-04-2006 03:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianClick Here to Email PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
this thread assumes there is a god & it is the christ one.
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Taijiguy
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Report this Post10-04-2006 03:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TaijiguyClick Here to Email TaijiguySend a Private Message to TaijiguyDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by frontal lobe:

Since an infant hasn't developed enough to get to the first step, which is intellectuall understand it, they have no capability whatsoever to exercise a free will choice. So baptism has NOTHING to do with going to heaven. But it doesn't have anything to do with an adult going to heaven, either.


This is what gets me and I find ironic about typical Christian beliefs. This whole concept of free choice. It seems to me the way its framed it is NOT actually free choice. Wouldn't you typically consider a truly free choice to be one that has no right or wrong to it? If you hold a gun to my head (or threaten me with eternal damnation) is my choice truly made freely, or is it made under duress? It just makes no sense.
Here's an analogy for ya. We know that "God" (however you perceive "him" created everything, and placed it on the table for us to choose from. Only, according to most common religious philisophies, despite the fact that we have the freedom to choose, and even though God has said we may freely choose from his offerings, if we choose "wrong", then we have to pay a price. So let's pretend-
You're having dinner with your kids. Afterwards, you put a bowl of fruit and a bowl of candy on the table for them and say they can have whatever they want. So being kids, they choose the candy. You then proceed to punish them for choosing the candy, even though you told them they had free choice of what they want. Would you do that? Would you torment them by putting the candy before them, and then telling them if they take it they'll be punished? If you tell them that, and they then choose tha fruit, even though in their hearts they wants the candy, did they FREELY choose the fruit, or did they choose it because they don't want to be punished. Wouldn't you much rather teach them that fruit is healthy, and candy is bad, and leave them to choose for themselves, without the fear of punishment?
My "God" does allow us to completely and without fear, choose as we wish, without fear of punishment or retribution from "him".

[This message has been edited by Taijiguy (edited 10-04-2006).]

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Report this Post10-04-2006 04:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86fierofunSend a Private Message to 86fierofunDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Taijiguy:


This is what gets me and I find ironic about typical Christian beliefs. This whole concept of free choice. It seems to me the way its framed it is NOT actually free choice. Wouldn't you typically consider a truly free choice to be one that has no right or wrong to it? If you hold a gun to my head (or threaten me with eternal damnation) is my choice truly made freely, or is it made under duress? It just makes no sense.
Here's an analogy for ya. We know that "God" (however you perceive "him" created everything, and placed it on the table for us to choose from. Only, according to most common religious philisophies, despite the fact that we have the freedom to choose, and even though God has said we may freely choose from his offerings, if we choose "wrong", then we have to pay a price. So let's pretend-
You're having dinner with your kids. Afterwards, you put a bowl of fruit and a bowl of candy on the table for them and say they can have whatever they want. So being kids, they choose the candy. You then proceed to punish them for choosing the candy, even though you told them they had free choice of what they want. Would you do that? Would you torment them by putting the candy before them, and then telling them if they take it they'll be punished? If you tell them that, and they then choose tha fruit, even though in their hearts they wants the candy, did they FREELY choose the fruit, or did they choose it because they don't want to be punished. Wouldn't you much rather teach them that fruit is healthy, and candy is bad, and leave them to choose for themselves, without the fear of punishment?
My "God" does allow us to completely and without fear, choose as we wish, without fear of punishment or retribution from "him".



To your analygy: the kids would learn an important lesson. Lets assume that the parents tell the kids before hand what is healthy and what isn't (as God does with us). If they choose wrong, they should be disciplined to have them make healthy choices in the future, as any good parent will tell you. in this case, even if the parents didn't punnish the kids, they would get a punnishmen in the form of a stomach ache. So no matter what, if the kids make a bad choice they get "punnished". There is not a choice that you make that does not have concequences. they all do, good or bad. God let's you have a choice, free will. You are just thinking that this doesn't apply in situations where the concequences are great. It does. It applies no matter what the concequences are. Again, there is always a concequence for an action, no matter how big or small.
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Report this Post10-04-2006 04:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TaijiguyClick Here to Email TaijiguySend a Private Message to TaijiguyDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 86fierofun:


To your analygy: the kids would learn an important lesson. Lets assume that the parents tell the kids before hand what is healthy and what isn't (as God does with us). If they choose wrong, they should be disciplined to have them make healthy choices in the future, as any good parent will tell you. in this case, even if the parents didn't punnish the kids, they would get a punnishmen in the form of a stomach ache. So no matter what, if the kids make a bad choice they get "punnished". There is not a choice that you make that does not have concequences. they all do, good or bad. God let's you have a choice, free will. You are just thinking that this doesn't apply in situations where the concequences are great. It does. It applies no matter what the concequences are. Again, there is always a concequence for an action, no matter how big or small.


That actually makes sense to you, doesn't it? You would actually put the two choices before your kids, tell them they can choose whatever they want and then punish them for choosing "wrong"? And you don't see ANYTHING wrong with that????
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Report this Post10-04-2006 04:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post
I wish people would stop trying to use the Bible to prove what it says in the Bible.
Just say you believe and leave it at that. The Bible is not "proof." Hard scientific evidence requires no faith - just a basic scientific understanding.

If the Bible was proof of anything, no faith would be required to believe it.
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Formula88

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quote
Originally posted by 86fierofun:


To your analygy: the kids would learn an important lesson. Lets assume that the parents tell the kids before hand what is healthy and what isn't (as God does with us). If they choose wrong, they should be disciplined to have them make healthy choices in the future, as any good parent will tell you. in this case, even if the parents didn't punnish the kids, they would get a punnishmen in the form of a stomach ache. So no matter what, if the kids make a bad choice they get "punnished". There is not a choice that you make that does not have concequences. they all do, good or bad. God let's you have a choice, free will. You are just thinking that this doesn't apply in situations where the concequences are great. It does. It applies no matter what the concequences are. Again, there is always a concequence for an action, no matter how big or small.


Except in the case of the choice God gives you, you don't get punished so you'll learn to make healthy choices in the future. With the choice given by God, it's a case of 'Make the right choice, or you will be punished for all eternity. Learning from your mistake will not matter. You will be punished forever.'
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Report this Post10-04-2006 04:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnnyKClick Here to Email JohnnyKSend a Private Message to JohnnyKDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:

I wish people would stop trying to use the Bible to prove what it says in the Bible.



Uh huh. I wish people would understand that.
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Report this Post10-04-2006 05:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianClick Here to Email PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:

I wish people would stop trying to use the Bible to prove what it says in the Bible.
Just say you believe and leave it at that. The Bible is not "proof." Hard scientific evidence requires no faith - just a basic scientific understanding.

If the Bible was proof of anything, no faith would be required to believe it.


especially being that the bible is written by some dudes - WAY after the facts. generations of word of mouth finally put to paper. and then re-translated & editted to some dudes preferances. especially the new release. a complete rip off of just about every other religion of region at the time, in order to make it eaiser for the people to swallow. it is mostly the story of Isis. at least the original release has historic confirmation.
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Report this Post10-04-2006 05:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoondawgClick Here to Email BoondawgSend a Private Message to BoondawgDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 86fierofun:



I used the Darwin quote to explore a point.

Every peoples believes THIER God is THE God.
I think they all agree on one thing.
There can only be ONE God.
And it just happens to be THIER God.
Then distort that farther within EACH group by what each sub-group claims thier God stands for.
And you've got a mess.

Wars, pursicution, death & destruction, all over who's God says or ment what, or what MEN SAY he ment.
If indeed there IS a God, WHOEVERS God, would surely come down and put a stop to that kind of derrision.
"I am the ONE TRUE GOD!"
He did it for Moses, to prove to Pharoe, by way of the 10 plauges of Egypt.

The peoples of the World needs to reconize one God, and only one, to stop all the hatred for other men.

If the WHOLE WORLD will claim ONE GOD, a God of love, acceptence, & understanding, I will get onboard TOMORROW!

But untill then, how can I be sure I am choosing the REAL God, when there are so many to choose from?
Do I choose the one who's rules I like the best?
Do I choose the one I was taught to believe in from my parents, as were they?
Do I choose the one whos story is most believable?
Do I choose the one who has been around the longest?
Do I choose based on where I was born?
Do I choose based on what the people who look like me chose?

HOW DO I CHOOSE?!
WHO'S GOD IS THE REAL GOD?!

Can there be more then one God?
How do you know you got the right one?
Is there a right one?

Please, someone tell me how to choose.

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 10-04-2006).]

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Report this Post10-04-2006 05:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnnyKClick Here to Email JohnnyKSend a Private Message to JohnnyKDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Boondawg:

Please, someone tell me how to choose.



Uhh, i don't think you have to?
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Report this Post10-04-2006 05:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for spankmeClick Here to Email spankmeSend a Private Message to spankmeDirect Link to This Post
Everyone is entitled to there own beliefs, its called free will. But the bible was written by men with their own agenda. And most religions believe if you donít believe in them you are going to burn. So we are all going to burn depending on who you ask. But as messed up and confusing religion can be, we need it. If there was no religion there would be less fear of consequences. Would we be good to each other, try to live a good life now if we didnít believe we would pay for it in the next? Wars have been fought, countless have died in the name of ďGodĒ or a belief, but I think more have been saved by it. It keeps most of us from shooting someone for cutting us off on the highway, or steeling when times are hard. It makes each of us who we are, for better or worse, weather we believe or not
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Report this Post10-04-2006 06:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BoondawgClick Here to Email BoondawgSend a Private Message to BoondawgDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by spankme:

We need religion. It keeps most of us from shooting someone for cutting us off on the highway, or steeling when times are hard. It makes each of us who we are, for better or worse, weather we believe or not


I don't think so.
I don't do bad things becouse I'm scared I will burn in hell.
I don't do them becouse I have a sence of what is right, when dealing with living beings.
It has nothing to do with what I was taught, or what others will think, or punishment.
It is a natural feeling I (and all living things, i think) have for the order of things.

Saying I don't do bad things becouse of a fear of punishment, is like saying I do good things soley for reward.
It just isn't so.

Chrimals continue to do bad things, despite punishment here, or the promise of punishment after death.
Even religous figures do bad things.
And they KNOW the cost, better then ANYONE!
If indeed there even IS a TANGABLE cost at all.

People do right or wrong, not becouse of the threat of punishment or the promise of reward, but becouse it's what they WANT to do.
For some people, bad feels good.
For others, it feels bad.
Not becouse someone said thats how it's SUPPOSED to feel.
Example:
Even animals know it's not right to abuse thier own offspring.
Do THEY instintively know the rules of God?

I think some things are just hardwired in as a condition of exsistence.

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Report this Post10-04-2006 06:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for frontal lobeClick Here to Email frontal lobeSend a Private Message to frontal lobeDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:


So, why do you require scientific proof that God may have created other worlds, and you don't require any scientific proof that He created this one?


I DO require scientific proof that God made this one.

I want to be brief so this doesn't get tedious.

I observe the world that I live in, and conclude it had to get here somehow.
Secular scientists give their theories on how it happened.
The Bible makes a claim about how it got here, and describes in a certain, specific way what the God is like who created it.
The Bible could be true, or it could just be man-made stories. So I read the Bible and use ONLY SECULAR sources to try to disprove or verify the Bible claims. Science. Archeology. Secular history. I find that those scientific sources verify much of the claims of the Bible, many of which are spectacular claims, and disproves none of the claims. I find that SECULAR history records portions of the Bible as written at certain times, and those portions contain SPECIFIC prophecies that would happen hundreds of years ahead, and then SECULAR history records those events as happening EXACTLY as prophesied.

So based on the best available scientific, archeological, and secular historical verification I can get, God proves to me that the Bible is real, and that is accurately describes Him, and his expectations.

I want to make it clear that you should exclude me from "...wish people would stop trying to use the Bible to prove what it says in the Bible." I'm not. I was using science, archeology, and secular history.

Interesting that you say, though, that if the Bible was PROOF of anything, no faith would be required to believe it. Not true. Because the Bible, even if true, makes claims about things that happen in the future. Someone would have to internally decide if they are satisfied with the proof, and can depend on it, which is what faith is. Because they may be experiencing situations that there logic leads them to one conclusion, but the Bible tells them another conclusion. And they have to have faith to put aside their own conclusion and choose the conclusion and resultant behavior the Bible says.


Taijiguy, your analogy is flawed as a comparator of what the God as described in the Bible did. God NEVER "put out the bowl of fruit and candy and said have whatever you want, and after they chose the candy, proceeded to punish them". God ALWAYS, BEFOREHAND, told people what the deal was. In the garden of Eden, the deal was--eat ANY fruit except the fruit from that tree. If they chose between ANY of the allowed fruit, no consequence at all. If they chose the one fruit-consequence. They KNEW IT ahead of time.

As I mentioned previously, free will as described in the Bible is an exercise of choice, knowing the consequences beforehand. What you want as free will is not the same thing. You don't want "free will", you want LICENSE. They are different. Your analogy accuses the Bible version of God of something that never happened, and is inaccurate.

Again, to all involved, I am just discussing and clarifying here. I am in no way doing this with any debating attitude. I am enjoying and respecting your questions and your ideas. I am giving you the Bible answer to the question Pyrthian brought up, and then issues others have brought up. Pyrthian posted "this thread assumes there is a god and it is the christ one." So within the confines of that assumption, I am just giving responses to what the Bible says about that god and christ.

Regarding the baptism question, baptism is abundantly mentioned in the Bible. It is ALWAYS done AFTER a person decides to accept the Messiah's death as the substitute to pay for the sins they owe, and it is ALWAYS an outward, visible symbol of what decision they made inwardly. There is never an infant baptised because an infant, through no fault of its own, is incapable of doing such a thing. Its importance has nothing to do with escaping the damnation that Pyrthian started the thread about, but is very important as a very visible, very public identification that you trusted Jesus, the Christ or Messiah, to do that for you.

Again, as always, not telling anyone to believe it. Just telling you what it says.
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AV8DAY
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Report this Post10-10-2006 03:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AV8DAYClick Here to Email AV8DAYSend a Private Message to AV8DAYDirect Link to This Post
Posted by Frontal Lobe,

I find that SECULAR history records portions of the Bible as written at certain times, and those portions contain SPECIFIC prophecies that would happen hundreds of years ahead, and then SECULAR history records those events as happening EXACTLY as prophesied.

You're gonna have to give some specific examples here, I don't believe you. Doesn't the bible prophisize the end of the world? Aren't we still waiting? (on Bush!)(off topic but I thought I'd try to peck a fight, ;-)

+
"It is ALWAYS done AFTER a person decides to accept the Messiah's death as the substitute to pay for the sins they owe, and it is ALWAYS an outward, visible symbol of what decision they made inwardly.
There is never an infant baptised because an infant, through no fault of its own, is incapable of doing such a thing."

I was baptized as an infant, so was my brother, as catholics. I know of many who had the same done to them. It is an important part of joining the church and the catholic religion (I believe).
If infant baptisime is not mentioned in the bible, then it has been added in as bieng equal to God's words. We've established here that this is a sin. God said you my not add or subtract from my words!?!
So this is bad news for me 'cause I'm gonna go to hell for it, and a "Father" sent me there when I couldn't even decide for myself or kick his a$$ for grabbing mine (J/J);
many many people I know we're baptised as infants, so at best it meant nothing and God does not recognize me at all, at worst a Priest/Father entered me into more sin when my parents thought i was bieng absolved of it, and God still does not recognize me as one of His'.

To a previous poster:
Omnipotent means all powerful, not that God is beyond our understanding.
And my point was that if God is all powerful; all knowing; and all good; then he would keep evil from happening (to His' people atleast) And if bad thing do happen to his followers he must not exist b/c he would not be one of the premises above.

BTW whatever you believe is peachy by me, to each there own, this just happens to be one of my favorite topics to debate on, fun thread!

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Report this Post10-10-2006 03:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianClick Here to Email PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by AV8DAY:
I find that SECULAR history records portions of the Bible as written at certain times, and those portions contain SPECIFIC prophecies that would happen hundreds of years ahead, and then SECULAR history records those events as happening EXACTLY as prophesied.


prophecies are as vague as horoscopes
you can guess anything, wait long enough and it will happen. also, what about the ones that DONT happen.
tell me one that will happen in the next 5 years. or better yet, this year.
what do the prophecies say will happen next? besides the end of the world - which is prophesized endlessly
what do the prophecies say about Veneuzuala? or the rain forest? or the former Russia?
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Report this Post10-10-2006 04:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AV8DAYClick Here to Email AV8DAYSend a Private Message to AV8DAYDirect Link to This Post
how aboot prophicies as to Cali. falling into the ocean, aenima anyone?
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Report this Post10-10-2006 04:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianClick Here to Email PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by AV8DAY:

how aboot prophicies as to Cali. falling into the ocean, aenima anyone?


we can only dream.....

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haha
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Report this Post10-10-2006 05:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ryan.hessClick Here to Email ryan.hessSend a Private Message to ryan.hessDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:
With the choice given by God, it's a case of 'Make the right choice, or you will be punished for all eternity. Learning from your mistake will not matter. You will be punished forever.'


At least the punishment fits the crime...

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Report this Post10-10-2006 07:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for frontal lobeClick Here to Email frontal lobeSend a Private Message to frontal lobeDirect Link to This Post
Sorry, guys. I didn't see this thread was picked up again.

AV8DAY,

The infant baptism thing comes up a lot in my area of the country, as about 75% of the people around here are catholic, and about 15-20% lutheran. Both of those religions baptize infants. My mom was catholic. My dad was lutheran. Guess what happened to me when I was a baby? I was "baptized", as defined by those 2 religions.

Here is one of the most straightforward portions of the Bible--and it will be found in ANY Bible a catholic or lutheran might use.

Revelations 20:12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

People are going to be judged someday "ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS." So you won't be judged for what your parents did to you, or what a priest did to you. You were an infant. You didn't do anything. You COULDN'T do anything. It was done to you (and me). So we won't be judged for that.

On the other hand, then as far as getting into heaven is involved, it won't be anything we can count on to benefit us, either. Because it wasn't our work. So infant baptism has nothing to do with getting into heaven or not. Which isn't surprising, since infant baptism doesn't exist in the Bible.

Regarding omnipotent resulting in God keeping evil from happening to His people, that isn't consistent with the Bible. God HAS allowed christians in the Bible to have "evil" or "bad" things to happen to them. Look at Paul. Beaten. Look at Stephen. Stoned. Look at Joseph. Sold into slavery by his brothers. Etc.

Again, please keep this in perspective. I don't intend this to be a debate. I am just pointing out portions of Bible. You can certainly draw your own conclusions.


Sorry, Pyrthian, if this ONE example gets a bit lengthy. I'll try to keep it short.

Here is Daniel 8 from the Bible. This Daniel is the Daniel and the lion's den Daniel. He was a jew who was living in Israel as a teen, Babylon came and conquered the land of Israel, and as was their practice, took many of the exceptional young people away to Babylon to try to train them as Babylonians. So the time of Daniel and his writing this book isn't in dispute. It was around 550BC. Here is what he wrote:

Daniel 8
1In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, even unto me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.

2And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.

3Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.

4I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

5And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

6And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.

7And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

8Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

9And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

10And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.


You can look up in secular history when King Belshazzar of Babylon took power. So that establishes the time.

But what in the world is Daniel talking about? Gobbledy-gook? To me, too. But then he goes on to say:
17So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

18Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.

19And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

20The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

21And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

22Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

These are not "vague as horoscopes" statements.

Daniel is being told, and then telling, who the world powers will be until the temple in Jerusalem will be destroyed. SECULAR history records that date as 70AD.

Babylon was the power at the time. Daniel prophesied they would be taken over by the Medes and Persians. SPECIFIC. Guess who conquered Babylon. Secular history records who and when.

After that, the Medes and Persians would be conquered by someone. Daniel prophesied it would be the Greeks. Guess who secular history records conquered the Medes and Persians? Daniel also prophesied that the Greek army would be led by a "notable horn"--and goes on to define that as a famous leader. You MIGHT have heard of that famous leader of the Greek army. Alexander the great. He was SO "notable", that he is recognized over 2000 years later by people living in the U.S. Pretty specific prophecy.

But the prophecy goes on to say that when the Greeks were strong, the leader wouldn't be able to hold it all together, and it would be split in 4ths. Hmm. Alexander the great was a great conqueror. But he wasn't a great politician. He died. OK. One general going to assume all control? Split in two? What? Daniel says, no, 4 parts. Look it up in secular history. 4 parts under 4 generals. Hmmm. That isn't vague, horoscope level. That is detail.

Goes on to say that group will be taken over. And that winds up being the romans.


I will take NO issue whatsoever if you want to not believe Daniel's claims, etc. However, secular history records when the book of Daniel was written. Secular history records when the events happened after, and by who. And these prophecies are not even close to being vague.

Just thought you might find it interesting. There are other examples, but don't want to make this already lengthy post (sorry) longer.
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jstricker
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Report this Post10-10-2006 11:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jstrickerClick Here to Email jstrickerSend a Private Message to jstrickerDirect Link to This Post
True enough, but where most Christian faiths get their command for baptism is from Mark 16:

14Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Notice that the operative word here really is BELIEVE. As a Lutheran, we practice infant Baptism. The older members are fairly fanatical about it but those are generally the ones that have gone to church for 50, 60, or more years but really haven't STUDIED the Bible or even the actual Sacraments we practice. The way I interpret it, infant baptism is only the first step in welcoming a new child of Christ into the fold. We also have Godparents and take that charge seriously. In our community, if something were to happen to the parents, the responsibility to train the child in the church would fall upon the Godparents. It makes very, very close ties. When my mother died, my wife and I were very busy taking care of my father for a lot of time afterwards and as any of you know, sometimes it's not easy to talk to parents about some things. Chris spent a LOT of time with his Godparents and they with him, without us ever asking them to. They just knew that they could help us, and him, get through it.

Beyond that, the Lutheran church also requires confirmation of faith before being permitted to take communion and that is generally done as a junior or senior in High School. They don't really do it anymore, but when I went through confirmation we had a "public examination" where the confirmation class went before the church on a Sunday morning and the minister and instructors asked them questions in the form of an oral examination. There was also time alotted for ANY member of the congregation to ask questions of the class, or any individual. They still have an oral examination, but now it's before the church council and not the entire congregation.

Yes, we take this very seriously. "but he that believeth not shall be damned"

Oh, and BTW, when we were married and my wife became Lutheran, she also had to go through confirmation class and oral examination just like anyone else at the ripe old age of 25.

The disciples themselves although not all baptized with water, were baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Acts 11:

15"As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with[a]water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?"

And numerous other references in Acts.

Interesting about the discussion of life elsewhere. Like FL I have read the Bible cover to cover dozens of times. I've been involved in dozens of study groups. I've taken college level theology classes. My older brother is a Baptist minister. Neither he, nor I, have ever once found a passage in the Bible that says this planet we are on is the ONLY one God created life on. To the contrary, I think Genesis states plainly that He took what was nothing and created ALL things. The only thing the Bible refers to is what he did here after the creation. I've always wondered why it was that non-believers seem to think that just because you believe in creation, God, or Christ that it automatically follows that there can't be other life elsewhere. Nothing in my faith precludes that and I challenge anyone to find a passage in the Bible that precludes it.

You can say what you want, you can do what you want, you can go on TV every Sunday and beat your chest proclaiming Christ is your Savior, but it you don't believe it in your heart all the shouting, carrying on, and baptisms in the world won't help you.


John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:


Jesus was baptised by John the Baptist. So yes, it's mentioned in the Bible.


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