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Stiring up a Hornets Nest by 1985FieroGT
Started on: 09-22-2006 11:09 PM
Replies: 30
Last post by: isthiswhereiputausername? on 09-25-2006 08:12 AM
1985FieroGT
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Report this Post09-22-2006 11:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 1985FieroGTClick Here to Email 1985FieroGTSend a Private Message to 1985FieroGTDirect Link to This Post
Some are going to say when they see this topic by me again, ugh “Not another Religious Thread by 1985FieroGT!!!.” It’s granted that it will make people uneasy, and many people mad. But that’s not the issue at hand. It’s about what happens when you take your last breath. So I invite all people, whether your Atheist, or Agnostic, or whomever to read this entire post. Because if you’re wrong, you’re going to be answering to a Holy and Just God when you die. There’s nothing easy about this, I don’t want to come off with a “Holier than thou” perspective, because I know I am not. So let’s say for instance your house just started on fire. You were sleeping in your bed, and I was on my front porch watching the fire. I decided to do nothing, and your house burns to the ground, and you die. That would be pretty bad wouldn’t it? But Love would be this: Your house starts burning, and I came rushing over, and kick your door in. I awake you, and drag you outside, your house is still a loss, but your life is saved. You would thank me. Would you rather have someone as your neighbor watch as your house burned down and left you for dead, or would you rather have someone willing to risk their own life, to save yours?

At this point a distinction has to be drawn between True Christianity and everything else including False Christianity in this World. Sure, in a dictionary sense Christianity is a religion like anything else, but a line has to be drawn between real Christianity, and what Religion, and false Christianity really is. Religion and all different forms of false Christianity are under the guise of Man’s acceptance by God by either a religious ceremony (Baby Baptism, Sacraments, etc) or by Good works, whether ethical or moral. But the important thing in true Christianity is this: God is working to Man, through Christ on the cross, Man cannot gain enough merit to present himself before a Holy and Just God.

But someone may object and say, well you have your truth, and I have my truth. Your truth is that Christ died on the cross, my truth is that Christ was only a great teacher that said a lot of profound things… Or, I don’t believe in God, Or I’m accepted by God, I was baptized as a Baby, went through all the sacraments that the Catholic Church told me to go through, so I know that God will accept me.

Jesus said, : “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.” John 3:3

“The fool says in his heart,
"There is no God."
They are corrupt, and their ways are vile;
there is no one who does good.” Psalm 53

Or someone may object, and as I discussed bring up that “all truth is relative.” The problem is with something like that, an Atheist says God doesn’t exist, well I say that he does exist. How can truth be relative when someone says that God doesn’t exist, and someone says that he exists??? It doesn’t make sense!! Truth cannot be relative.

But for the most part people are scared… people don’t want to believe in the true God, because they’ll know that they’re going to be held accountable to him for what they’ve done in their life. So either people won’t believe in God, or justify themselves by creating a God that won’t condemn them.

But again another objection may ring out, “Oh yea, well my God, is a God of love, He’ll never condemn anyone.” The problem with such an answer is that it’s unbiblical. Yes God is Love, but he’s also Just. Let’s say for instance your in court, and your about to be sentenced. The crime: Robbery. You look at the judge, and tell him, “I know you’re a Loving and kind Judge, I know you’ll allow me off the hook.” The judge will look at you and say, “Because I am a Loving and kind judge, I’ll do what is right, and sentence you to a term in prison, you broke the law of the land, and are being rightly punished, however I take no pleasure in sentencing you.”

To those who hold to their faith in evolution, look at the world, look at everything out in the universe. To think that everything came from nothing is absurd. Look at the complexity of the solar system, look at the complexity of Humans, and animals!!! Before Darwin, almost everyone believed in God in some form.

Take for instance you saw a big ship in a harbor, if someone came up to you one day, and told you that over several millions of years, pieces of metal slowly formed to create the hull of this ship, and the holes slowly formed and wore through the pieces of the metal, while the rivets slowly came into existence, and fit into the perfectly evolved holes of the metal of the ship, the engines that power the ship slowly evolved into existence creating their perfect pistons, connecting rods, and crankshafts, and placed themselves perfectly into the hull of the ship, and the person said that a bunch of people found this ship floating inside of a cove, you would run away laughing.

“Can anyone really deny God’s existence? If you say there is no God, then all the wonders around you are just an accident. The billions of stars in the sky just happened to make themselves and generate their own power to keep on course. The land just happens to have topsoil without which nothing could grow. The air we breathe – only 50 miles deep and exactly the right composition to support life – is just another accident in the laws of physics.
Can you believe these things just happened? Isn’t it more reasonable to believe that a supreme mind is behind all of this and everything that exists? Take the deposits of coal, zinc, gold, and uranium. Did they get there by accident? And what prevents lakes from freezing solid, all the way to the bottom, making it impossible for fish to survive?
Why does the earth spin at a given speed without slowing down so that we have day and night? Who tilts it so that we get seasons? No one really knows the why and how of the magnetic pulls. Or think of the sun stoking a fire just warm enough to sustain us on earth, but not hot enough to fry us or cold enough to freeze us. Who keeps the fire constant?
And what about the human body – an intricate combination of bones, muscles, nerves, and blood vessels. The human brain has far greater capacity than any computer we have ever imagined. The kidneys contain approximately 280 miles of tiny tubes, and in the course of a day filter 185 quarts of water from the blood.
And then there is the heart, an unbelievably rugged organ: a four-chamber, four-valve pump that handles 5,000 gallons of blood a day – almost enough to fill a railroad tank car. It supplies a circulatory system with 12,000 miles of vessels and, in the course of a life-time, beats two and one half billion times. All the blood in your body is pumped through your heart every minute while your heart beats 100,800 times a day.”
(Quoted from Dr. J. Allen Blair’s tract “Is there a God?”)

But again someone may object, “Oh yea, where did God come from?”

He just is; he was never created, or he wouldn’t be God. He has no beginning, and he has no end.

I’m quite sure almost everyone has heard of the name of Jesus in almost every corner of the world in their own tongue. But people don’t fully understand what the Bible says.

“Almost 2,000 years ago, Jesus entered the human race in a small Jewish community. He was a member of a poor family, a minority group, and resided in one of the smallest countries in the world. He lived approximately thirty-three years, of which only the last three comprised His public ministry.
Recently I was talking with a group of people in Los Angeles, I asked them, “Who, in your opinion, is Jesus Christ?” The response was that He was a great religious leader. I agree with that. Jesus was a great religious leader. But I believe He was much more.
The distinct claims of Jesus to be God eliminate the popular ploy of skeptics who regard Jesus as a good moral man or a prophet who said a lot of profound things. So often that conclusion is passed off as the only one acceptable to scholars or as the obvious result of the intellectual process. The trouble is, many people nod their heads in agreement and never see the fallacy of such reasoning.
To Jesus, who men and women believed Him to be was of fundamental importance. To say what Jesus said and to claim what he claimed about Himself, one couldn’t conclude He was just a good moral man or prophet. That alternative isn’t open to an individual, and Jesus never intended it to be.
C.S. Lewis, who was a professor at Cambridge University and once an agnostic, understood this issue clearly. In his book “Mere Christianity,” Lewis wrote: “I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: ‘I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.’ That is one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic – on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg – or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse.”
Then Lewis adds: “You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call him Lord and God. But let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”
Jesus claimed to be God. He didn’t leave any other option open. His claim must either be true or false. It is something that must be given serious consideration.
Jesus asked His disciples, “Who do you say I am?” It is a question that everyone must answer.” Quoted from Josh McDowell’s salvation tract and book “More than a Carpenter.”

Look at the Ten Commandments, everyone has broken everyone of them. Now imagine that we’re separated from going to God by a great Chasm. Everyone has to make the jump, inevitably some people make it a few feet, others 10 feet, but God is 100 feet away. “For all have sinned, and fall short of the Glory of God” Romans 3:23

Some people think that living a good life is enough to gain acceptance into Heaven. But what must a person do when they commit one evil in their life, before a perfect and Holy God?

God is the standard. In order for us to gain acceptance into his presence we would have to be perfect. No one, save Jesus, was perfect. Jesus was both God and Man in the flesh, born of the virgin Mary, He is the second person in the trinity of God, he fulfilled God’s perfect law without ever breaking it, and died on the cross to pay for YOUR SINS.

Now imagine you have just passed away, and you’re standing before God in a giant court room. There’s a huge theater screen on the wall that starts to replay you’re entire life through your eyes, and every offense you’ve ever committed is listed on another screen. You stand in tears pleading for God to have mercy, but you rejected his pardon during your life. You scoffed at Christ, and trampled over his cross, which paid for your sins. God declares you guilty. The sentence: Your soul is cast away from his presence forever, and you’re fully activated conscious will never leave you alone for an eternity.

Now imagine that during your life you repented of your sins, and placed your full trust in Christ alone. You didn’t just give intellectual assent to what the Bible said about him, but you put him on like you would a parachute in an airplane that’s about to fall from the sky, when your about to make a jump. You’re standing in that great courtroom again, and your entire life is replayed, God still declares you guilty, but Jesus comes down, and tells him “Father I know he wasn’t perfect, but he repented, and truly placed his faith in me, my blood paid for his debt.” Then God opens up Heaven, and Jesus says: Come my faithful friend into my Father’s paradise that was created for you since the beginning of the world.”

It’s not enough to know about Christ, even the Demons believe in the true God and shudder. James 2:19

In order to be able to experience God’s peace, you must forsake (repentance) your sins (evils), you must understand what you are before God, and must ask for his forgiveness. It’s more than just saying a prayer to ask Jesus to come into your heart, without understanding what you are before God. A sign of true repentance is crying to God, literally, and begging for his mercy and forgiveness. If you’re sincere, you will be redeemed.

Now there will be given evidence of a change in your life if you have been truly redeemed. You’ll want to pray, read your Bible, goto a Church where the Bible is preached and taught, you’ll start to hate sin, you’ll have sorrow over your sin before God. If you start to see evidence of these things in your life, then you’re most likely redeemed.

There’s no perfect prayer to say. Just pray whatever comes to your heart praying to God the Father, in Jesus’ name, repenting and knowing that Christ died to pay for your sins, and was resurrected back to life. Repent, and believe, and if you’re sincere, then you’ll be redeemed. However being a Christian isn’t going to be a great thing all the time. Jesus said, “If anyone wishes to come after me, he must first deny himself, pick up his cross, and follow me daily. Whoever wishes to keep their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for my sake, will keep it. For what shall it profit a man to gain the whole world, but lose his soul, or what shall a man give in order to keep his soul?” You must be ready and willing to go to the death for Christ, you must be willing to be ridiculed and belittled for your faith, you must be willing to forsake all of your friends, if it came to the point of Christ or them. If you’re truly redeemed God will give you the strength, but life as a Christian won’t be easy at times. We must be willing to go through the pain, to see the glory. But the scarier thing is, Christ talked more about Hellfire than anyone else in the Bible, it’s something to consider.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life” John 3:16

That’s God’s promise

Now for the Athiests and Agnostics that made it down to this point and want to argue, understand this. Look at the evidence. I can say, “Well if you’re right, then we’ll just die, and that’s it; if I’m right, then you’ll die without Christ, and pay for an eternity in Hell.” I’m not saying these “if” things thinking I may be wrong, for I know the truth. My life has changed, and only God has done it. I’ve experienced answered prayer, that only God could have done. There’s no other answer than this:

Jesus said: “I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man comes unto the Father but by me.” John 14:6

Now granted after all of this, I’m sure there will still be hardened skeptics, and atheists attacking me. Or there will be genuine people wanting to know more. Whatever the case, I welcome any debates, or questions. There’s nothing that cannot be defeated or overcome by God. “Greater is He who is in you, than he who is in the world.”

In my following post, there are a few harsh spots that I’ve talked about, but people are dying all around the world every second. Around 150,000 people die a day. I didn’t do this post to “Cram my religious views down your throat.” I did this out of love. No not the intimate husband and wife love, but the kind of love like I mentioned at the beginning of my post in my parable of the burning house. Your house is burning, I come in and try to rescue you, but granted some will say “My house isn’t burning down, go away,” others will allow me to reach out and drag them through the door to safety. But the ones that say to go away, are the ones that are going to perish in the flames of their burning house. I can only tell them what has been revealed.

Recommended resource websites:

www.gotquestions.org
www.gty.org
http://www.biblebb.com/mac.htm

Recommended Books:

“More than a Carpenter” by Josh McDowell
“Evidence for Christianity” by Josh McDowell
“Even More Evidence that Demands a Verdict” by Josh McDowell
“The Gospel According to Jesus” by John MacArthur
“Hard to Believe, the High Cost and Infinite Value of following Jesus” by John MacArthur
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Report this Post09-23-2006 12:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for under8tedClick Here to Email under8tedSend a Private Message to under8tedDirect Link to This Post
You have been reported to the ACLU, the AHAC, the HVAC union and the socolist party of atlantis.

LMAO

You do realize dude--that kind of rhetoric is EXACTLY why the world is as screwed up as it is.

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Report this Post09-23-2006 02:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TintonSend a Private Message to TintonDirect Link to This Post
Wow....that is a very long and religious post.

I'll say that religion of choice doesn't matter much, if someone's house was burning I would bust down that door and try to rescue whoever was in there. And I'm not Christian. You don't need to be Christian to have love, compassion, etc. Being Christian doesn't automatically make you a loving person either, as you seem to say by saying there is a "True Christianity" and a "False Christianity". For me, IMO, there are no such things. There are just people. Religious affiliation doesn't matter. Some care, others don't, that's just their nature. You'll find good and bad people in all faiths, or in groups that lack faith.

Second paragraph. Or, at least, the last part of it. You have a right to your opinion and your faith in Christianity, but you have no right claiming it is the one true path. You say that "God is working to Man, through Christ on the cross, Man cannot gain enough merit to present himself before a Holy and Just God". You have every right to believe that, as I, and no one else here on this planet, can disprove it. Me trying to dispute that statement would be as futile as trying to dispute someone's claim that there are unicorns. Its your job to prove it exists, its not my job to disprove it. I will not say it doesn't exist, just that the chances are highly unlikely, since no evidence has presented itself. You have never seen God, spoken with God, and the basis of your beliefs in your form of afterlife is from a 1500-5000 year old book and from what religious authorities have told you.

From my current perpective, all I can say is that we cannot know. There is no definite proof of God's existence, yet as an amateur scientist I cannot prove God is non-existent with 100% accuracy since there is never 100% accuracy without observing every single opportunity. In order to prove that God doesn't exist, I would have to be in every location in the universe at every moment in time in the past, the present, and the future. That does not mean that belief in a deity isn't a bad idea. How would you react if someone came up to you today claiming that the Flying Spaghetti Monster created the world and he will save you in the future? You've never seen such a thing, why would you believe in it? I treat Christianity and every other religion in the same way.

Next paragraph, religious dogmatic babble. People are scared of believing in a God because they think they'll be held accountable for their actions? That claim holds as much weight as me saying that people are scared of believing in Zeus because he will smite them with a thunderbolt. So, do you avoid Odin because of fear? Or any other deity that has come before the Judeo-Christian one? You'd be surprised, deep down we're both atheists. Its just that I believe in one less deity than you. Not out of fear, but because I just don't care for imaginary friends.

I'm skipping the next paragraph. As I do not believe in a deity, it makes no sense to argue that my non-existent deity is a loving one. My imaginary friend just spilled his soup.

I do not hold all my faith in evolution. I'm open to other possibilities, but to claim that the earth is 6000 years old and was created in 6 days is absurd. The worst thing is to become close-minded, but out of the current explanations for the origin of life on our world as we know it, Evolution is the best theory. If something better comes along, believe me I'll be all over it. Don't be angry if some people don't believe in your insane Bronze Age creation mythology. Also, to go deeper, Evolution does not attempt to explain anything other than the origin of species. It is not an all-covering "theory" (and I'm using the term theory loosely here) like Creationism. Evolution is simply survival of the fittest, you can see it progress in your lifetime. Did that influenza strain just become resistant to that drug? It evolved. I have yet to see a deity spontaneously create something. To assume that Evolution tries to explain the origins of the entire universe shows your ignorance of everything scientific.

Your next paragraph holds no weight. You're comparing non-living to living. Ships do not reproduce on their own, they do not compete with other species (would that be species of non-living things?), etc. They do not have the capacity to evolve. In the great scheme of things, the chances for life to occur spontaneously are actually not that bad. Billions of years go by, the chances of getting exactly the right combination of proteins is greater. The events of the early universe are statistically dependent, not independent. Also, I'd like you to go up to any scientist and tell them that a strain of bacteria became immune to a treatment because God made it happen. He would run away laughing.

Nothing just "happens". Everything is dependent on what happened before it. The stars in the sky just didn't appear out of chance, they slowly formed over time. The land you grow your crops on is there because of a cycle in our world, it just didn't appear. Decaying matter made that topsoil you grow your corn on. God just didn't make it out of nothing, and it didn't just appear out of thin air. Everything builds on everything else that happened before it. Without the chain of events leading up to our existence, we would not be here, and you wouldn't be able to ask these questions about your existence. We are not dependent on that exact amount of air in our atmosphere. If the atmosphere were different, we would have developed differently. Understand the concept of time. You've been here for 10-100 years, right? Imagine 14 billion years. If you're 13 years old, imagine living for 1,000,000,000 longer. Time has been abundant for such complex things to develop, like the human body. You're comparing the human mind, which took approximately 3 billion years to develop, to the computer which has only been around for about 100 years. I would be surprised if we could EVER match the precision and complexity of billions of years of evolution, as a species we're too impatient.

"Oh yea, where did God come form?". He just is? Eh? If you open the door to ludicrous, unbacked claims like that you open the doors for society as a whole to plunge into the dark ages. If we start forcing people to disprove ideas, instead of prove them, all logic is lost. Prove to me that God exists. The only evidence you have could just as easily come from a Flying Spaghetti Monster or Cthulu or Odin or whomever you want to name. I could make up a being right here on the spot and say he/she made the universe and it would be just as truthful as your God. Human heart eh? I say that the Flying Spaghetti Monster did it! PROVE THAT STATEMENT WRONG. You can't, just as much as I can't prove you wrong about your diety. Now, if I were to continue making ridiculous claims about FSM did this and that any educated person would claim them all as false as I failed the first test. Show me definitive, scientific proof of your God's existence. Prove to me that this God is exactly how he is written about in the Bible.

On to Jesus. I believe that Jesus existed, as a historical figure. I, in no way, shape, or form, believe that we was of godly birth or was himself of godlike form. He lived 2000 years ago. Most historical records from that era can only be taken with a grain of salt. "Jesus claimed to be God. He didn't leave any other option open. His claim must either be true of false". Having not witnessed Jesus Christ myself, and only being able to go by historical texts written by man, I would feel more comfortable believing the lunatic in Times Square is the reborn Son of God. After all, I'm able to witness him with my own eyes. IMO, the only difference between Jesus Christ claiming to be God and the lunatic in Times Square is that in 1 instance I was able to witness the event, the other I wasn't.

"Some people think that living a good life is enough to gain acceptance into Heaven.". I believe in living a good life for the sake of everyone here. Try to make someone else's life better, maybe that will return to me someday. If not, that's fine. When I die, I'm nothing, but at least I'll know I made some people happy when it counted.

Next paragraph. Once again, religious nonsense that has nothing to keep it afloat. You say those words as if they're fact. Who indoctrinated you?

I've passed away. Right. Evidence to support your God+courtroom theory? As I thought, none. Not as if its impossible, but its unlikely. I don't buy flood insurance on the top of a mountain in the desert. It is much more likely that you will rot in the ground when you die. I wouldn't say that I trampled over the cross, I try to be respectful of Christianity and other religions as much as I can, but I'm not going to take up the cross and hold it dear to my heart in blind faith to save myself from an unlikely event that no one has ever witnessed before.

The next several paragraphs seem to be about trying to be a good Christian. I won't even bother to read them.

Burning house? Perfect analogy, riiiight . Only you missed one thing: you are insane and imagining the house is on fire, and you're dragging someone out when there is no emergency. The fire you see is imagined, it isn't based in reality. People mind their own businesses while lunatics break into their houses and forcefully remove them, thinking there is a fire. Those in their right minds see no evidence for fire, so therefore, there is no fire.

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84fiero123
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Report this Post09-23-2006 09:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Direct Link to This Post
I don’t normally post in these type of threads for the simple reason that you can not change peoples minds, and I really don’t want to.

You, as far as I’m concerned can believe in anything you want.

You can believe that Christ is the one, or Buddha, or Mohammad, or anything you want.

It doesn’t make you a better person.

It doesn’t mean you are going to save someone when I wouldn’t.

I do not believe in a God, sorry if that offends you.

I stop for people when I see them broke down on the side of the road.

I drove an Ambulance as a teenager.

Who’s to say that I am any better or worse than anyone else? YOU?

If and I am saying if there is a God when I die I will have to deal with that when I die.

If there is none then I will not have to deal with anything when I die.

Besides if there is a heaven and hell I don’t have a thing to worry about. I know where I’m going and I’m sure my Dad has already got cold beer on tap down there.

To worry about dieing constantly is just plain stupid.

If that is the only reason for going to church then so be it, go to church.

It seems to me that all the worlds troubles today are because of some religion and the fanatics that are within those religions.

You yes you Christians started the holey wars, That really saved a lot of people.

When I lived in Tennessee I ran into a lot of pastors, preachers, and the rest.

Believe me they were the worst of the people I met down there, they would preach as they tried to screw you over. Screw you money wise, we had one come to buy a miniature horse and tried to use the religion card to get us to drop the price.

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and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

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FrugalFiero
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Report this Post09-23-2006 01:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FrugalFieroDirect Link to This Post
I am a Roman Catholic. I questioned my faith at times. Not anymore, thanks to the many saved and born again people I have dealt with over the years. We Catholics haven't got it right in 2000 years but we keep plodding along. We deserve much of the flack we get.

From Catholicism and Fundamentalism, by Karl Keating:

"Fundamentalists conclude from the Bible that Christ actually promised that heaven is theirs in exchange for a remarkably simple act. All they have to do, at just one point in their lives, is "accept Christ as their personal Savior". Then it is done. They may live exemplary lives thereafter, but living well is not crucial. It does not affect their salvation. No matter what happens later, no matter how evilly they might live the remainder of their days, their salvation is assured.

One could be Mother Teresa, yet still be damned by not accepting Christ in the fundamentalists' sense. On the other hand, one can sober up Sunday morning, go to church, heed the altar call, accept Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior and, so long as it is really believed, all is well. Nothing can be done, no matter how henious, that will forfeit salvation.

As Catholics see it, anyone can achieve heaven, and anyone can lose it."


From James 2 14-18:

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.

As I have said before, I will reserve comment on MY salvation until I meet my Maker. I may go to hell, but I'm thinking alot of humans that thought they were going to heaven might be right next to me!

[This message has been edited by FrugalFiero (edited 09-23-2006).]

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1985FieroGT
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Report this Post09-23-2006 02:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 1985FieroGTClick Here to Email 1985FieroGTSend a Private Message to 1985FieroGTDirect Link to This Post
FrugalFiero, I sent you a PM.
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D B Cooper
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Report this Post09-23-2006 02:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for D B CooperClick Here to Email D B CooperSend a Private Message to D B CooperDirect Link to This Post
All good reasons to remain Agnostic. Thanks.
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FrugalFiero
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Report this Post09-23-2006 03:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FrugalFieroDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 1985FieroGT:

FrugalFiero, I sent you a PM.


I should have known better than to post a reply on this subject. Kicking myself in the butt for even mentioning I am Catholic...

[This message has been edited by FrugalFiero (edited 09-23-2006).]

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tutnkmn
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Report this Post09-23-2006 03:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tutnkmnClick Here to Email tutnkmnSend a Private Message to tutnkmnDirect Link to This Post
Episcopalian here, born and Baptized once don't need it again thanks!

Right or wrong, I'll find out someday. Would never push my Faith on anyone.

--------------------------------------------
The Anglican/Episcopalian view on confession:

All may, none must, some should!

[This message has been edited by tutnkmn (edited 09-23-2006).]

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Scott-Wa
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Report this Post09-23-2006 03:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Scott-WaClick Here to visit Scott-Wa's HomePageClick Here to Email Scott-WaSend a Private Message to Scott-WaDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by FrugalFiero:


I should have known better than to post a reply on this subject. Kicking myself in the butt for even mentioning I am Catholic...





Should be kicking yourself in the butt for having replied at all dang it, now I've gone and done it. It's all your fault you false cult member!! Did he send you tracts on how wrong christianity is? Or how you started Islam?

Just say 3 Hail Marys and promise not to do it again.
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FrugalFiero
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Report this Post09-23-2006 03:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FrugalFieroDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Scott-Wa:
Should be kicking yourself in the butt for having replied at all dang it, now I've gone and done it. It's all your fault you false cult member!! Did he send you tracts on how wrong christianity is? Or how you started Islam?

Just say 3 Hail Marys and promise not to do it again.


Nothing like that, just the usual "I won't be saved." Saying 3 Hail Marys now...



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under8ted
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Report this Post09-23-2006 04:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for under8tedClick Here to Email under8tedSend a Private Message to under8tedDirect Link to This Post
I was in a church once...........here I am a helpless infant and the bastards tried to drown me. Havent been back since I had a say in the matter.

Serioiusly, while I do respect everboby's right to live by the relegion of thier choice--I just dont get the "converters"--the ones who come hell or high water wont take "no" for an answer and are determined to convert you to thier beliefs. Dont matter if the xtians, muslums, natives, jews, occultists--every relegion has some of them, and for the most part they are what makes me hate religions.

Its like--just go away, i dont care and dont keep harrasing me or i WILL turn violent to make you go away. Even that they cant seem to grasp. What is thier problem???
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Tinton
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Report this Post09-23-2006 09:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TintonSend a Private Message to TintonDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by FrugalFiero:


I should have known better than to post a reply on this subject. Kicking myself in the butt for even mentioning I am Catholic...





Don't kick yourself. I used to be Catholic .
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Formula88
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Report this Post09-23-2006 10:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 1985FieroGT:
So I invite all people, whether your Atheist, or Agnostic, or whomever to read this entire post. Because if you’re wrong, you’re going to be answering to a Holy and Just God when you die. There’s nothing easy about this, I don’t want to come off with a “Holier than thou” perspective, because I know I am not.


So, if we're wrong, we'll be answering to a "Holy and Just God" becasue that's what you believe. What if YOU'RE wrong? Ever think of that? No, you haven't becasue you believe, and that's justification enough for you.

You do come across "holier than thou" because the whole premise of your post is 'my religion is right, and yours is wrong - if you don't believe what I believe, you're going to be damned for all eternity.'

 
quote
Originally posted by 1985FieroGT:
But someone may object and say, well you have your truth, and I have my truth. Your truth is that Christ died on the cross, my truth is that Christ was only a great teacher that said a lot of profound things… Or, I don’t believe in God, Or I’m accepted by God, I was baptized as a Baby, went through all the sacraments that the Catholic Church told me to go through, so I know that God will accept me.

Jesus said, : “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.” John 3:3


So the Catholic Church sacraments aren't enough. I wonder what the Pope would say? He is the voice of God on Earth, correct?

What about Jews? If they don't ask Jesus for forgivness and repent, are they going to hell too? You remember Jews, right? Jesus was a Jew. But the followers of Protestant Christianity pray to Jesus and yet don't adopt His religion?

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 09-23-2006).]

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ryan.hess
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Report this Post09-23-2006 10:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ryan.hessClick Here to Email ryan.hessSend a Private Message to ryan.hessDirect Link to This Post
Holy sh** those are long posts...

Cliffnotes?

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tutnkmn
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Report this Post09-23-2006 11:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tutnkmnClick Here to Email tutnkmnSend a Private Message to tutnkmnDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:


What about Jews? If they don't ask Jesus for forgivness and repent, are they going to hell too? You remember Jews, right? Jesus was a Jew. But the followers of Protestant Christianity pray to Jesus and yet don't adopt His religion?



If a little Buddist baby (an innocent non-Christian) dies before receiving Christ, will the child's soul burn in Hell? I believe in a loving God that would not allow that.
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Tinton
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Report this Post09-24-2006 12:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TintonSend a Private Message to TintonDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ryan.hess:

Holy sh** those are long posts...

Cliffnotes?


Need Cliffnotes?

1985FieroGT: "Bla blah bla accept christ blah bla bla just and good god bla bla bla BURN IN HELL IF YOU DON'T"

My long post: "1985FieroGT, you're not right no matter how much you think you are."

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Formula88
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Report this Post09-24-2006 12:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ryan.hess:


Cliffnotes?


Accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour or burn in hell for all eternity.

I think that covers the basics.
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Report this Post09-24-2006 01:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lurkerClick Here to Email lurkerSend a Private Message to lurkerDirect Link to This Post
would a "just god" punish a good person to an eternity of damnation, simply because theyre a non-believer? this is not a very appealing god in my opinion, certainly not worthy of adoration or worship. this looks more like a demon (not that i believe in demons, it just seems to fit the description) to me, jealous, egotistical, petty and vengeful. "worship me, or suffer". no thank you.

[This message has been edited by lurker (edited 09-24-2006).]

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Marvin McInnis
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Report this Post09-24-2006 01:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Marvin McInnisClick Here to visit Marvin McInnis's HomePageSend a Private Message to Marvin McInnisDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:

Accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour or burn in hell for all eternity.



Slight correction: "Accept my version of Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour or burn in hell for all eternity."

Christians, Muslims, and Jews have been killing each other for more than a thousand years over how to worship essentially the same God. What a sad waste.

(Now I'm kicking myself for even posting here. It only encourages zealot threads like this.)

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 09-24-2006).]

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Formula88
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Report this Post09-24-2006 04:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Marvin McInnis:


Slight correction: "Accept my version of Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour or burn in hell for all eternity."

Christians, Muslims, and Jews have been killing each other for more than a thousand years over how to worship essentially the same God. What a sad waste.

(Now I'm kicking myself for even posting here. It only encourages zealot threads like this.)



No correction really needed. Muslims and Jews don't worship Jesus as the Messiah. They regard him as a prophet.
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JohnnyK
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Report this Post09-24-2006 05:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnnyKClick Here to Email JohnnyKSend a Private Message to JohnnyKDirect Link to This Post
At least they haven't come knocking at my door recently.. "Will you accept jebus as your saviour?" "Uhh.. But what if I'm a better person than you.. Isn't there a finite amount of space up there (which would have been filled up long ago anyways) according to you"?
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Chump
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Report this Post09-24-2006 05:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ChumpClick Here to visit Chump's HomePageClick Here to Email ChumpSend a Private Message to ChumpDirect Link to This Post
My head hurts now.
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D B Cooper
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Report this Post09-24-2006 06:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for D B CooperClick Here to Email D B CooperSend a Private Message to D B CooperDirect Link to This Post
refer to Tinton's Cliff notes version.... much more concise.
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ryan.hess
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Report this Post09-24-2006 07:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ryan.hessClick Here to Email ryan.hessSend a Private Message to ryan.hessDirect Link to This Post
Awesome, I nominate this for the best thread of the year.

It has two really, really long posts... like 5 pages each,

and it covers my favorite topic - religion - aka "My God can beat the sh!* out of your God"
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Scott-Wa
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Report this Post09-24-2006 07:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Scott-WaClick Here to visit Scott-Wa's HomePageClick Here to Email Scott-WaSend a Private Message to Scott-WaDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:


No correction really needed. Muslims and Jews don't worship Jesus as the Messiah. They regard him as a prophet.


I think you'll find that Muslims regard him as the Messiah, but not as the son of god, jews barely acknowledge him, I don't think as a jew he's considered a prophet, some might see him as a activist/teacher. Like Moses, not a prophet, can be looked at as someone that came to town to kick some ass for the people turning from warping the faith... but then it gets warped in a different bad way in the new testament when people declare him divine, son of god and all that. To a jew or a muslem that seems pretty heretical.

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Raydar
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Report this Post09-24-2006 08:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarDirect Link to This Post
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Formula88
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Report this Post09-24-2006 10:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Scott-Wa:


I think you'll find that Muslims regard him as the Messiah, but not as the son of god, jews barely acknowledge him, I don't think as a jew he's considered a prophet, some might see him as a activist/teacher. Like Moses, not a prophet, can be looked at as someone that came to town to kick some ass for the people turning from warping the faith... but then it gets warped in a different bad way in the new testament when people declare him divine, son of god and all that. To a jew or a muslem that seems pretty heretical.


Could be. I'm not an expert on Islam, but from what I've heard they regard Jesus as a prophet, much like Moses, and that they worship God/Allah and follow His word as given to them my Mohammed. That would suggest to me that Mohammed is a more important prophet to Muslims than Jesus.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 09-24-2006).]

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Red88FF
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Report this Post09-25-2006 01:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Red88FFSend a Private Message to Red88FFDirect Link to This Post
Ahh, I understand it is very self empowering to believe you know something that others don't. I am no expert here but I see hypocrisy brewing in that belief. From my limited understanding, feeling holier than thou will get you in the proverbial hot seat all by itself. hehehehehe

By the way, I could care less what your belief system is until you try and thrust it upon me, or through some misguided idea you place me or my peep's in peril. Then? we'll figure it out.

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tjm4fun
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Report this Post09-25-2006 04:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for tjm4funClick Here to Email tjm4funSend a Private Message to tjm4funDirect Link to This Post
I know I shouldn;t do this. my home forum has a special section for politics and religous discussions. not censored or moderated, as it is understood that threats have no place. the arguments are always very heated. Most know my stance, so I just read thru for a chuckle. you can't change a zebra's stripes. no arguing ever does.
I was raised catholic, schooled solidly for 8 years (with corporal punishment allowed). after all that study and reading, even at that young age I did comprehend one thing:

Religion is a crutch for explaining that which we do not yet understand.

The faith of a person has no bearing on the person: if they are a good person, they are a good person.... period.

as for the present state of the world, ideology based on religious beliefs has caused more deaths than greed. if all these relgious leaders believed all they preach, violence would be forever banned.
so imho, all religion should be banned, just have to deal with greed then, a much more tangible concept.

and if I'm wrong, well if it's a christian god, he is all forgiving anyway. says it about 500x in the bible.
(just ask the people around the time of Noah's flood, or the people of Soddom and Gamorrha)
and if it;s a differrent god, well, guess I;ll come back as a slug.....
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isthiswhereiputausername?
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Report this Post09-25-2006 08:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for isthiswhereiputausername?Send a Private Message to isthiswhereiputausername?Direct Link to This Post
This pretty much sums it up

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life” John 3:16


I used to be catholic, now I am actually a church trustee at a bapist church
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