quote Originally posted by TorqueWench: i'm nominally bisexual, in that i have the CAPACITY to feel sexual attraction towards males and females, but in practice, i've only ever been physical with women, and form my pair bonds with women, both before transition, and after. i can count the number of men i have considered of sufficient interest to me to want to be with, on both hands, so i'm only just barely practically bi. obviously, when you're trans, the terms lose their strict semiotic meanings. i like girls, but i don't like STRAIGHT girls, which explains what doomed my pre-transition relationships. my role and feelings were all wrong, and yet i wasn't gay in the male/male sense. my orientation was towards women, but my identity was misaligned. all that is a side matter though. very few of us transition just because of who we sleep with. its EVERYTHING ELSE including our sexual orientation, that determines how far we need to go to relieve the misalignment. in my case, i didn't feel like a she-male, or a guy crossdresser, or a drag queen, or a chimera, or a avatar of a new way of humankind. just another chick, like my mom, my sister, my friends, my girlfriends.

It's all so confusing to me.
But hey, my understanding of it has nothing to do with your living it!
Whatever it takes for you, to feel like you.
Me, If I felt "missaligned" inside, with who I was outside, I would probibly just suffer in silence.
I'm not that brave.

Hell, i'm still trying to figure out my Wife's body!

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 09-03-2006).]

As far as all this goes people can do there own thing. I really don't care and I won't judge them or look down on them for it or anything like that. BUT I do feel that if someone used to be a man. They need to tell someone before they sleep with them or marry them. Or really even kiss them. Well for me atleast. I would be pretty pissed. If I'm on a date with a girl and before anything goes down. She tells me . Then fine. We can finish dinner say goodnight and go are sepperete ways because I'm not interested. But no matter how hot or anything else. If I wake up the next morning. And they gota tell me somthing. And that somthing is they used to be a man. I would be unimaginaly angry.

My my my. This is certainly an interesting thread, and to be truthful not one I would expect on PFF even in O/T.

But it is a good thread. I have some personal experience in this area myself. The President of the Board of the charity I work for is a former physician who has treated the transgendered community for 50 years. I worked for him once as a computer consultant and eventually became his office manager for the 2 years he practiced before retirement. I can say of the hundreds of TGs that I have met over the years they were all pretty decent people who just had a crisis in their lives with respect to their gender. I am a Christian and at first the idea of taking a job in such an environment really bothered me. After a time though, as I got to know the patients I came to realize that they were just people like anyone else.

I guess it comes down to something Jesus once said: "Judge not lest ye be judged!"

Everyone should keep an open mind and live and let live. No person is perfect and we all have things others would find strange about us.

hee hee had to say it twice? we get it ok!

i didn't realize this would be such a hot topic. its interesting to see people's views of this. like i first said, it doesn't matter to me but in a working relationship i don't need to know your life's story.

quote Originally posted by 84fierotrevor: As far as all this goes people can do there own thing. I really don't care and I won't judge them or look down on them for it or anything like that. BUT I do feel that if someone used to be a man. They need to tell someone before they sleep with them or marry them. Or really even kiss them. Well for me atleast. I would be pretty pissed. If I'm on a date with a girl and before anything goes down. She tells me . Then fine. We can finish dinner say goodnight and go are sepperete ways because I'm not interested. But no matter how hot or anything else. If I wake up the next morning. And they gota tell me somthing. And that somthing is they used to be a man. I would be unimaginaly angry.

What if it was a hermaphradite that decided to keep the female parts and lose the rest? Some times its not black / white or gray but a wierd shade of green.

In College, there was a good acquaintance I had several classes with that was transitioning to a transexual. He was transitioning to a she, but hasn't gone through reassignment surgery yet but was taking the hormone therapy regiment.

She was totally cool and very intelligent. We sat right next to each other and it wasn't no big thing to me. I was aware of her as a transexual, but it wasn't a turn off nor did I think anything different of her. I have no problem calling her a friend of mine.

Her thing was that she was bi but perfered women. She was also a big Jim Rome fan and a sports nut. Honestly, she seemed very normal to me although many other people probably wouldn't see it that way because the way our society hasn't accepted or tolerated people that would end the bigotry that exist against gay and transexuals.

[This message has been edited by Wichita (edited 09-03-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Phranc: What if it was a hermaphradite that decided to keep the female parts and lose the rest? Some times its not black / white or gray but a wierd shade of green.

someone i know, well, in my circle of friends, i'm not close with her because frankly she's stupid and i dont like stupid people.
anyway, she was born an hermaphradite. the doctors decided she was going to be a girl.

well, now she's a very manly looking woman that is gay. she did get a big settlement out of the deal.
it's regretable that the doctor made the decision for her and she gets to live the rest of her life as a man trapped in a womans body.

quote Originally posted by buddycraigg: if a transvestite lives that way, i'm not talking about a weekend cross dresser. but really lives the lifestyle, then i call them what ever they are living by. maybe i'm a fag hag trapped in a mans body. naw, i could never be gay. i wouldn't want to mess with plucking my eye brows

trans‧ves‧tite a person, esp. a male, who assumes the dress and manner usually associated with the opposite sex.

trans‧sex‧u‧al
1. a person having a strong desire to assume the physical characteristics and gender role of the opposite sex.
2. a person who has undergone hormone treatment and surgery to attain the physical characteristics of the opposite sex.

Pay attention now: Transvestite != Transexual

Personally, I call them whatever is appropriate, i.e. a transexual would be addressed according to the gender they identify with. A male transexual, whether pre-op or post-op would be referred to as "she."

If a drag queen is in drag, I'd call her a she. If she were out of drag and dressed as a man, I'd call him a he.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Pay attention now: Transvestite != Transexual

i dont agree.
i think of a transvestite as a constant cross dresser, but that's it.

i think of a pre op transexual as someone that takes drugs and or had gone under the knife to be more like they wanted to be but isn't quite there yet.

Does that apply to females born as females? Not a real woman unless your attracted?

Interesting problem there eh? Bell curve again... editted to clarify, sexual identity has squat to do with looks. Doesn't matter if you are ugly or stunningly beautiful unless your video is there for me to... oops tmi. Gender identity is about fitting in your skin, not how others perceive you. Most of us fit in pretty well, our self perception fits our parts. Sliding over on the scale you have people that fantasize about being the other sex for play and those that need it. The fact that people aren't even all born with an identifiable gender means to me that it isn't as clearcut as some would have us believe. If your religous, and are an Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve type, how do you reconcile god creating plenty of real world Pat (saturday night live character) types where they come out as neither Adam or Eve? Are they abominations or just part of the wonderful variety of creation? In some areas they are hidden and mutilated like here in the US, in other places they are considered blessed and celebrated.

[This message has been edited by Scott-Wa (edited 09-04-2006).]

This is a forensic pathology question only, and assumes no opinion.

I was reading an abstract on whether or not each individual cell in a mammalian organism could be classified as either male or female. The question was whether or not there is "female" blood and conversely, "male" blood. Each individual cell retains the chromosomal map to a certain degree I conjectured. So I came across this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8176859&dopt=Abstract

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Sex determination from blood and bloodstains by polymerase chain reaction (PCR).

Semba S, Yamamoto Y, Ishizu H.

Department of Legal Medicine, Okayama University Medical School, Japan.

A study on sex determination from blood and bloodstains by polymerase chain reaction (PCR) was performed from the viewpoint of forensic medicine. In the present PCR method, Y chromosome specific sequence (DYZ3) and X chromosome specific sequence (DXZ1) belonging to alphoid (alpha) centromeric repeat family were specifically amplified. The limit of detection of the specific sequences by PCR corresponds to 0.00001 microliter of the whole blood. In case of diluted blood, it was possible to detect X and Y specific sequences in the specimen diluted up to 100,000 times. X and Y specific sequences could be detected from a cotton cloth in size of 1 mm2, on which blood diluted by 10,000 times had been attached. In case of bloodstains, X and Y specific sequences could be detected even from 1 mm of a single cotton fiber and sex could be determined. X and Y specific sequences could be detected even from blood specimen left at room temperature for 7 months, and from bloodstains left at room temperature for two years. Further, sex determination could be achieved from aged bloodstains preserved at room temperature for 22 years. X and Y specific sequences could be distinctly detected after blood specimen was heated in a water bath at 100 degrees C for 9 hours. After bloodstains were heated in an electric furnace at 150 degrees C for 30 minutes, both specific sequences could be detected. When male and female blood specimens were mixed together, X and Y specific sequences were amplified satisfactorily when male-female mixing ratio was from 100:1 to 1:1. From the mixing ratio of 1:10, amplified band of Y specific sequence began to gradually weaken, and only weak band was detected when the mixing ratio was 1:1000. These results reveal that the present sex determination method by PCR can be performed in simple and quick manner and has high detecting sensitivity, and sex can be determined even from putrefied, heated or aged specimens. Thus, it is expected to be one of useful examination methods in forensic practices.
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That answered only a part of the question I suppose. At the molecular forensic level, I was wondering if the individual who is undergoing a course of hormone therapy, actually would alter the results of the test described.

Blood transfusion interchangeablity between sexes is not in question. The question is, does sexual definition exhibit itself at the cellular, indeed the molecular level? What does the transexual individual actually alter on that level I wonder?

I was hoping frontal lobe may have a deeper understanding of just what happens overall, when the hormonal system is shifted to this degree.

god dang. i don't understand a gosh darn thing ya said.

so sexual identity is in the blood? maybe i should quit giving blood, i've seen a lot of women out there with harry mustaches, maybe i'm the reason!

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/mole00/mole00276.htm interesting answers to a 14 year olds question, not clear answers but what stands out is that we all start out as female, male is a process tripped by the sry chromosone.

Some here hate Wikipedia references but this makes a good start for furthering research for anyone interested in going further about gender development. This is different than gender self identity, but I feel they are related... that things happen chemically in the womb and dna that lead to peoples further identity issues. Sure there are psychological components also, but I think it all starts in the womb.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

quote Originally posted by TorqueWench: thank you, FieroGirlsMom, for your kind words; you're a love. alison ^_^

You're welcome Alison. I just wanted to let you know that someone was out there thinking about how you were feeling.
I figured you would be watching this thread pretty closely. Thanks for answering my question.

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: That seems pretty judgemental.

Good. That's what I intended.

quote What someone does to themselves in order to make their lives more liveable for themselves doesn't effect me, so why should I care?

You shouldn't....and either should I (unless our tax dollars are used to pay for the mutilation/surgery).

But, this thread invited opinions, and I stand by my statements.

quote I do find the fact that male and female are not so different fasinating,

Sure...except for that penis/testicle vs. vagina/ovary/uterus/childbirth thing....oh, and those emotional differences....and those damned chromosomes.

quote that there are a lot of transexuals out there that (either way) that are more attractive than most people I know. People aren't carbon copies, everyone is different... these people just reside at the ends of the bell curve. I wouldn't feel comfortable being offended by them anymore than I'm offended by someone born short who decided to wear platform shoes or the person that puts on a wig rather than living with their lack of hair.

So, you claim that:
A) Being "attractive" is a free pass that excuses things like mental illness.
B) Gender is a physical deficiency like lack of height or baldness.

quote I had surgery recently to remove a cyst I've had for over a decade, mainly because I was getting sick of the comments and questions a stupid bump on my head caused, some really hurtful ones.

I sincerely hope you are feeling better.

quote If someone is willing to go trans when they KNOW how a large portion of the public is going to stare, comment, attack them for the decision (at least here in the US),

Yes, here in the unenlightened U.S. we question the drastic actions of confused souls.

quote I have to figure it's pretty damn important to them and none of my business.

Agreed.

If a person deisres that lifestyle, can finance it, and can find a "doctor" willing to perform it, I say live and let live.

But, I still stand by my statements.
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Who is John Galt?

[This message has been edited by fogglethorpe (edited 09-04-2006).]

quote Originally posted by buddycraigg: i dont agree. i think of a transvestite as a constant cross dresser, but that's it. i think of a pre op transexual as someone that takes drugs and or had gone under the knife to be more like they wanted to be but isn't quite there yet.

Don't agree with what? You just restated my definitions.

FYI, != means "not equal to" = means "is equal to"

I have run into a couple "Transcritters" as TorqueWench put it, in my life. One you could just tell, but she was a nice enough person and the other I had absolutly no idea until I saw the Adam's apple. As for you Torque, I applaud your courage to bare all onto this forum. It takes alot of courage to come out with your past like that on a public forum. And I must say if you had not told that you were transgendered, I would have never known. Not that it matters. I respected you highly befor for being openly gay in a world that can be so harsh towards anyone whom is differant, I respect you even more now. It is never easy to lay your life out on the table for public scrutinity, I know I have professed my life story on here a couple times. But this is the forum to do it on. We have people here who can be cruel no matter who you are or what you believe, but for the most part we are one big happy and loving family.

Glad to have you as part of it.

Randy

quote Originally posted by fogglethorpe: Sure...except for that penis/testicle vs. vagina/ovary/uterus/childbirth thing....oh, and those emotional differences....and those damned chromosomes.

That's just it... the penis starts as the same organ as the vagina, a switch is normally flipped at a point in fetal development that turns it into the male organs rather than the female. That wikipedia link I posted gets a bit into all the variations besides XX an XY, the chromosone part of the equation. There are also hormone components, receptor and filter issues and probably more we don't understand (completely admitted by those specializing in the area). I remember reading that there are something like 167 genes identified that deal with gender, it's not just the classic X and Y. Androgene exposure in the womb will turn create male organs on a female. And it's not as uncommon as some might think, .1 to 1% of babies have issues where their genders are mixed or not identifiable at birth resulting in doctors forcing a decision on the parents or just doing surgery and not telling them what it really was.

http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2005/0218gender.shtml

quote Originally posted by Formula88: FYI, != means "not equal to" = means "is equal to"

oh,
i've never seen that before.

carry on.

[This message has been edited by buddycraigg (edited 09-04-2006).]

quote Originally posted by sostock: ok i have met two other pre-op transexuals before. one wasn't much to look at but another was very attractive. if you didn't know it was a man you would have never guessed. today i met a post-op. she has had facial surgery for the jaw bones/chin, is on hormones and has small breasts and has had the, um, how do you say, uh, no longer has a penis. she showed me pics of before, during and after the "transformation". she's kinda scary looking, but if she hadn't told me i would have thought she was just an ugly woman. (sorry being honest). the reason i'm posting this is why did she have to tell me all this? she is an employee and as long as you do your job i don't care about race, sex, color, creed. just do your job and i'll be happy and treat you equally as shi##y as everyone else. i know that someone going through this procedure has to have psychological counceling so is this something that the shrink tells them to talk about? or does she just think i should know? i just thought it was kind of weird and not something that i needed to know for a working relationship.

Beacuse she was proud of her change? Its quite an ordeal to do that so im sure its a big part of her existance now.

And talk about OT subjects, i rarely remember to come over here ... heh

I will keep it short. I tend to believe along the lines of people are people and can do whatever they like to themselves provided it doesn't hurt anyone else.

I used to drive a limosuine privately for a businessman who like to go partying at night. He loved drinking and taking women home with him. One night it was after hours and most places were closed except for a club in San Fran. ( I forget the name). He goes in, comes out not 15mins later with someone and says to me to take them home. (my boss's home). Having not had any alcohol I immediately knew the person was not a female. I didn't say a word because my job was just to drive, not get to involved. Most nights when I picked him up he would say things like "that girl last night was really something wasn't she? I never heard a word about the night mentioned above.

quote Originally posted by fogglethorpe: So, you claim that: A) Being "attractive" is a free pass that excuses things like mental illness. B) Gender is a physical deficiency like lack of height or baldness.

Are you a doctor, sir? More specifically, one qualified to medically assess the psychological aspects of gender decisions?

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: Are you a doctor, sir? More specifically, one qualified to medically assess the psychological aspects of gender decisions?

No, I'm not a doctor. But you are taking a huge leap by stating that gender is a "decision".

quote Originally posted by fogglethorpe: No, I'm not a doctor. But you are taking a huge leap by stating that gender is a "decision".

Lack of a better word coming to mind at the moment.

My follow up question, then, is what qualifies you to diagnose it as a mental illness?

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: My follow up question, then, is what qualifies you to diagnose it as a mental illness?

"I'm confused about who I am! I think I'll have my genitalia surgically mutilated...that'll fix me!"

I didn't diagnose it...it's an opinion.

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Who is John Galt?

nevermind

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 09-06-2006).]