quote Originally posted by fierogtowner: As much as needed, I do have a gasmask but that is besides the point. No one would want that stuff released on the street except for the culprits. And how exactly would this stuff actually get here?

How did 20 hijackers get here? How did Reid get a shoebomb on a plane.
It doesn't take much, some money, little redundant planning, multiple cells.

PS, Gasmask only helps so much with mustard gas as it's a blister agent and breaks down filters as well as attacking any exposed tissue.
When was the last time you brought your mask to the mall? sporting event?

[This message has been edited by Uaana (edited 06-26-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Uaana: Bill is an isolationist/sociopath.

I'm an Seperatist, with Isolationist Tendencies.
Everything else is based in trade/money.

quote Originally posted by Uaana: How did 20 hijackers get here? How did Reid get a shoebomb on a plane. It doesn't take much, some money, little redundant planning, multiple cells. PS, Gasmask only helps so much with mustard gas as it's a blister agent and breaks down filters as well as attacking any exposed tissue. When was the last time you brought your mask to the mall? sporting event?

The question you really must ask youself is how did 20 hijackers take over an airliner using merely box cutters, wow. So your saying hundreds of passengers were in complete control by Arabs that were using box cutters. When I think of mass destruction, it is usually the mushroom cloud statements we were all spoon fed by Dubya and Condoleeza Rice (she is so bought) - Addressing the nation on October 7 of last year, for instance, Bush said, "Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof -- the smoking gun -- that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud." Rice, meanwhile, said in an appearance on CNN on September 8, 2002, that, "The problem here is that there will always be some uncertainty about how quickly he can acquire nuclear weapons. But we don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud."

Compare the destructiveness of the two. The Oklahoma bombing, for example, and chemical weapons is quite the comparison. Which of two is more destructive? Oklahoma bombing. That is my viewpoint on what mass destruction really is. Destroying human casualties along with buildings etc. Chemical weapons are only human casualties. I guess to really call it mass destruction is having chemical weapons explode in hundreds of miles distance, in a populated area. But just remember the mushroom cloud statements. Suddam's centrifuges were also non usable and broken.

[This message has been edited by fierogtowner (edited 06-26-2006).]

quote Originally posted by fierogtowner: The question you really must ask youself is how did 20 hijackers take over an airliner using merely box cutters, wow. So your saying hundreds of passengers were in complete control by Arabs that were using box cutters. When I think of mass destruction, it is usually the mushroom cloud statements we were all spoon fed by Dubya and Condoleeza Rice (she is so bought) - Addressing the nation on October 7 of last year, for instance, Bush said, "Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof -- the smoking gun -- that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud." Rice, meanwhile, said in an appearance on CNN on September 8, 2002, that, "The problem here is that there will always be some uncertainty about how quickly he can acquire nuclear weapons. But we don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud." Compare the destructiveness of the two. The Oklahoma bombing, for example, and chemical weapons is quite the comparison. Which of two is more destructive? Oklahoma bombing. That is my viewpoint on what mass destruction really is. Destroying human casualties along with buildings etc. Chemical weapons are only human casualties. I guess to really call it mass destruction is having chemical weapons explode in hundreds of miles distance, in a populated area. But just remember the mushroom cloud statements. Suddam's centrifuges were also non usable and broken.

So you did want to wait for a mushroom cloud, or dirty nuke type weapon?
Using your OK analogy, now add in say 15lbs of enriched uranium or even finely milled yellowcake.. we go from a few hundred to thousands.

If his centerfuges and the like were all broken never to be used again, why did he have 50 tons of uranium and why was he trying to get more?

There is no evidence that Saddam tried to buy uranium from Niger and also enough evidence that he did not.

quote Originally posted by fierogtowner: There is no evidence that Saddam tried to buy uranium from Niger and also enough evidence that he did not.

Wilson's report stated that there had been talks between the two but no sale made.
The 50tons removed from the country came from somewhere, and again if he had no plans to enrich why would he want 50 tons of the stuff.

Saddam was in no way a humanitarian, and if he had the stuff for medical pourposes it would have been easier and cheaper to just buy the completed machines.

If I go to a BMW dealership, look at an M3 and leave without buying. Doesn't mean I don't want one and wouldn't drive the rubber off it if I got it. Just means we couldn't come to terms on the price or some other reason.

Holding on to one failed sale to say Saddam had no intentions ever of creating or obtaining nukes is kinda naive.


PS, just to make this easier.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ng.html

Niger has no exports other than uranium, there is no other reason for Saddam or his agents to have been there.

[This message has been edited by Uaana (edited 06-26-2006).]

Right, Suddam was a nutbag and it was necessary to capture him, but the war.

Thats the hard one.

I can see both sides, he was extremely paranoid, and had the UN two step down pat.
We don't endorse assination, but rolling into the country with 5 divisions isn't exactly just serving a warrant for arrest.
He was better entrenched and had more doubles and hideouts than Slobo did..

Not even easy to monday morning quarterback this.. From all reports and statments made by numerous national and international leaders Saddam was a threat to local security and global economy. He danced with the UN for 12 yrs, countless resolutions passed against him, yet was still able to purchase weapons from the French and Russians..
So leave him alone to start another war with Kuwait, Iran, Saudi, Isreal? Or say enough is enough.

Someone had to make the call, was it the right one? History will tell.

quote Okay... You still havent answered the question. I'm not asking about your personal success. I'm asking how is this war "the best thing that ever happened to this country?" Can you answer that question or not?

Bill, do I REALLY need to point out the obvious AGAIN. We were attacked on an annaul basis with innocent American CIVILIANS being brutally murdered by terrorists in 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, and 2001 <----the last year that it happened. This war has STOPPED the blood letting of innocent victims and it has made clear to terroists that terror DOES NOT WORK anymore as a means of negotiation. I've watched terrorist since 1968 get awy scott free and I am truly sorry than youths like you were not around to see it happen. You would think differently today otherwise.

It's the best thing that has happened to us.

quote Why should I care about middle easterners? If they don't like whats happening they can make laws and change their environment. THEY can fight for their own freedom... cant they?

Why should you care indeed. That is what our governement said in the early half of the 20th century that CAUSED this anti-American hatred to begin with. Start caring or the attacks will keep coming. That is Bush's philosophy. We are just there to fix 100 years of oppression of previous admins and it tragic you can't see that. Oops, I forgot it's all about oil. Yep, that $3.10 gallon of gas sure is a God Send now that we "control" the oil.

quote I never said that "war was not necessary." I'm saying that THIS war is not necessary and am questioning the reasons you feel it is. War is always regretable no matter what the cause is. More so when the basis for war is not substantiated.

I stand corrected. As for THIS war I can't disagree with you more as per the reasons above. If we are to stop terrorism we need to remove them and repair the systems that caused their origination.

quote Well excuse me but I read "I grieve" in one sentense and then read "war is good" in another so forgive my confusion and request clairification. If you are glad because "this war is the best thing to ever happen to this country" then how can you grieve? Thats why I'm asking the questions I'm asking. I'm somewhat confused by your logic because it defies logic. You can't be sorry and at the same time not be sorry.

War is nto GOOD. Sheesh at least quote me when you put word in quotes and attribute them to me. I said war is at times "NECESSARY" and THIS war is MOST DEFINITELY necessary. Again, you are reating yourself, the reasons are ALL previously stated.

quote Ready to die for your country? How about taking the next plane to Afghanistan or Iraq to prove your willingness to die for your country and what you believe in? I swear I'll manage my money and do a very good job at it while you die.

Of course. Who isn't willing to die for his country is simply a coward. Period. As I has stated in other threads I am color blind and the military won't take me. That is NO different today than it was when I was 18 sitting in front of an Army Recuiter on Peachtree Street in Atlanta. I also have 2 babies to feed and a mortgage to pay so my contribution will have to come in other forms. But rest assures that is Bin Laden marched into Morgan Hill, I couldn't grab my 30-06 fast enough!

quote Todd continues: This is just a meaningless claim to fame you are not truely worthey of. You don't go online and sign up for a degree in soldiering, take a few tests and viola! your a soldier.

Bill, in case you are under some sort of illusion about what is required to become a soldier let me enlighten youn, It requires two things, a healthy body and a gut full of resolve. No disrespect to our men and women in uniform but the obvious needs to be stated, it is does NOT take much brains to be a soldier.

It DOES take brains to determine the policies that the soldier enforces for his country.

quote 9/11? I'm not talking about 9/11, I'm talking about the war raging in Iraq. They are two unrelated issues. What high horse am I on? What, expressing my grief and outrage for the loss of my brothers and sisters in arms and my desire to stop it? Thats my point.. I'm grieving and I'm angry.. I want it to stop. I don't want for more death, I'm sorry it has happened and I want it to end.

YES Bill, WE ARE TALKING about 9/11. The war is Iraq is to prevent another 9/11. Duh, that was the point of the war...to stop terrorists from getting WMD...ringing any bells? See quotes above.

quote 84Bill asks: 1. How in your mind does the 2500 who died in the current war seem any more or less significant than the 3200 in the last 3 days of WWI? Todd replies with: 6 hours, not days. The World War 1 Armistice was signed at 5:00 am on November 11, 1918. But the terms of the Armistice did not call for ceasation of hostilities until 11:00 am. Hence, for 6 more hours after everyone KNEW that the war was over, fighting continued. In those 6 hours 3200 American soldiers lost their lives! Bill obvliviously asks: Okay.... So the 2500 soldiers who died since the start of the war in Iraq are pittlins? Meaningless by comparison? Of no real consiquence?

No Bill....sigh. The question is NOT are the 2500 less significant than the 3200. The question is WHY aren't you as enraged about the 3200 (who's loss is FAR MORE wasteful) than the 2500? You whine like a school girl about 2500 deaths in 3 years in a war that is unarguably reducing terror attacks on our country and yet 3200 American boys were slaughter in 6 hours for NOTHING, and not a freaking peep out of you.

What am I to conclude but that you are merely playing politics and not REALLY thinking this matter through.

quote Todd continues: THAT is the definition of a pointless waste of life. Those men TRUELY died in vien. Yet do I hear you blathering about their loss? No, you just ***** about the 2500 we have lost over a skillfully fought 3 year campaign that is ANYTHING but pointless. Those 2500 men and women contributed to the liberation of MILLIONS, To the security in America of HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS for nearly 5 years now, and to the preservation of COUNTLESS scores of people who would be dead today if Saddam your buddy was still in power to develop his WMD. This is not rocket science Bill. Any time a soldier dies I would certinly hope he/she hasn't died in vain. However, you say it depends on the reasons. Which is why I'm asking the questions I'm asking. Why are our soldiers dieing in Iraq? Whats the reason?

Read ALL of my previous posts/ I refuse to repeat what has been said a hundred times already Bill. We are there to protect American lives. sheesh just read my post above with the quotes from John Kerry to The Iraqi Nuclear Scientist.

quote You say, "fighting for freedom" I say, "we already have freedom" You say, "No no.. to give Iraqis freedom" I say, "They can fight for freedom for themselves.. IF they want it." You say, "no they can't, they arent capable." I say, Yes they can, they are doing it right now." You say, "NO, those are terrorists." I say, "NO, those are freedom fighters fighting to be free from America occupation." This says it all Bill. You just lost everybody on this forum. [QUOTE]For a country that had the third largest army in the world I'd think that they were more than capable of fighting for their freedom.

That army was controled by Saddam...a dictator. and THEIR freedom IS our business. Without it, more Americans would have died needlessly.

quote 84Bill asks: 2. You call them "brave." Tell me what in your mind makes them "brave." Todd replies with: The willingness to put themselves in harms way for those who can not defend themselves, like the Iraqi and Afghani people, American citizens, and world peace in general. Bill said: Firstly it's their JOB to be in harms way. They have to be ORDERED to in harms way. Soldiers are highly trained, highly motivated killing machines just itching to kill an enemy.. any enemy they are unleashed on. So there is no bravery, just training and orders that make them do what they do best. So your assertion that they are "brave" is really not very accurate. It's a job.

No Bill, if that were the case we would have 121 American soldiers hiding in Canada.

Bravery is from the gut, not a job description.

No piece of paper you have proves you are brave. Sorry to disappoint you.

quote 84Bill asks: 3. You say you grieve. Granted each individual grieves in his or her own way but how has the death of one soldier effected your life and has cause you to grieve for his or her loss? What was their significance to you? Todd replied with: Since my own brother-in-law fought (an survived thank God) 2 campaigns in Afghanistan, My Wife's Cousin is in Iraq right now, my Great Uncle was a marine in the Pacific in WW2 and fought in Guadlecanal and Okinawa, and my grandfather landed on Utah Beach and was wounded 3 times and eared a bronze start in Europe, and more....I feel it very personally. Because I think that any one of those soldiers could be my brother-in-law or cousin. I think that any one of those guys could have been my grandfather and then I would never have been born, I think of the children and grandchildren who WILL never be born because of those 2500 deaths...and I STILL see value in their mission. Bill said: Well you made a sweeping justification for some kind of entitlement (to what I have no idea) but you still havent expressed how you are "grieving" for the loss of (my brothers and sisters in arms) "our soldiers" in Iraq. So it beggs a question and requires an answer. IF you "grieve" (express sorrow) then WHY do you continue to inflict pain on the families and friends of those who will die in this war? [QUOTE] Pain is a part of life Bill and if you think it is possible to "legislate" pain away you are truly out of your mind. This statement actually proves you are a coward. Sorry Bill just stating what everyone else is thinking. Bravery is being scared and doing it anyway! That is what bravery is Bill, not your discharge certificate. Bravery is being a father, working every day like a dog, and NOT expecting anything in return but the knowledge that you are doing right. I am not entitled Bill, that is YOUR problem, remember? I am only saying that I know some REAL heros and it gives me insight that a person like you could never know. You call these soldiers your borthers and yet they all disown you, at least the ones I know do. Want to explain to my Brother in Law, Major Al Tabarez who was an instructor at Fort Irwin and did 2 tours in Afghanistan and who thinks you are a coward (based on his last viewing of a post of yours from last Christmas) why you are his "brother"? He';s stationed in Hawaii these days I'll be happy to forward your email. [QUOTE] Todd continues: They die and I feel mad, sad, frustrated, helpless, and yet comforted. Comforted by the absolute knowledge that they are doing the right thing. This war is necessary, this war is nobel, this war will be long remembered as the point in history where an entire part of the world that had been enslaved since the dawn of man, finally became free! Bill asked: If you are mad, sad, frustrated and helpless how the hell can you be comforted? Theres NO comfort in the word you described, none at all! Yes there is Bill, read the second sentence. [QUOTE]There is especially no comfort for a dead person... they are dead! How can you possibly say, "sorry for your loss" to one family then turn to the next and say, "You are required to sacrefice your loved one."??

Becasue that is the cost of freedom and if you don't know that I truly pity you.

quote What are you getting at here? Are you saying that you are upset about the loss of life yet don't care to stop it because you feel it is a nobel cause? If thats the case you are not mounful at all and instead are happy. You feel it is a noble enough cause and therefore are not at all mounful for the loss of life because to you it's worth it. You are glad, happy to sacrefice life because it is a risk you are willing to take. If you were truely "mournful" then you wouldn't allow this to continue. If you felt sorrow for the loss of life then you would not want the loss of life to continue. You are like a thief who steals and when cought says "i'm sorry" yet turns right around and steals again. You werent "sorry, mounful or regretful" at all now were you?

Life is NOT the most important thing Bill. Liberty is. Life without freedom is mere existence.

Try to remember that.

9/11 was the red carpet to Iraq and Bush and his cronies drove it all the way.

The cost we are paying now is not the cost of freedom , It,s the cost of putting an idiot in office.
The bush administration fabricated the reasons to go to war.
They did it by ignoring evidence.
Read this todd and give me a three foot long cut and paste.
As much as Rove would like to rewrite history, this wont fly.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/25/iraq.wmd.reut/index.html

quote Originally posted by FIEROPHREK: So you are scared of some old outdated chemical munitions? SNIP..

uhhh no..

quote We fight over there so we don't have the fight over here.

We? where do you get this "we" thing? Do you mean they?

quote You sleep SNIP cause the fighting is on the other side of the planet thanks to the U.S military

No, I sleep nice in my bed because I have a bed to sleep in. The US army on the other side of the world draws attention to this side of the world but at any rate thats not why I sleep well in my jammies or bed or whatever. I sleep well because I work hard.... and have a comfey bed.

quote I like it this way and i bet you do to but it would be hipocrytical of you to agree.

Oh no, by all means leap aboard the next airplane to Iraq. I don't care. Go do what you gotta do but don't call yourself American because I don't want some 14 year old kid who saw you blow his dads head off, grows up hating all americans, then comes after me or my kids when he turns 30 by flying an airplane into a building. I don't want no part of that at all.

Call yourself the Iraqi liberation front or something and I'm "A" freaking OK with that. Don't wear the flag and don't claim to be an american. Be the Iraqi and fight like one and I'm sure they will love you for it. Me too.

quote If the fight was here you would probably not even be logged into this forum because you would be outside trying to talk your way out of a beheading. You are correct i am not an imbicile.

Again the half assed assertions from a jackass. No I was wrong, you are definatly, beyond all reasonable doubt an imbicile.

quote I fully understand that there is killing going on. I know some of our troops have slipped and done some sh!tty things, and i am regretful for that.

Yes, the hubris atlast. If you were in their shoes you wouldn't regret it. Maybe if you got cought and were headed to Kansas, then maybe you would be regretful. But screw that crap. ****er blew your buddies head off. I mean wtf?

quote But look at the big picture. Muslim Extremists HATE America and want us all DEAD ! HELLO This means you too! Your american therfore you do not deserve to live in their eyes. so why sit back and wait for them to attack us with chemical weapons and/or nuclear weapons? Hey just because you don't care if you live or die doesn't mean we all feel that way. I want to see my kids grow up and have kids of their own. Don't you want to see yours do the same? So we either live buy the American way or we can live in fear because we don't know what day a 50 kilo-ton bomb is gonna go off in the middle of a kindergaten graduation in _________ ,_________ (you fill in the town and state).

Squawk!! Polly wanna cracker Squalk!!! You sound just like the US propoganda machine.. "They hate you because you are an american... squalk! whistle!"
Can you roll over and play dead on command too? I'm going out on a limb here but you probably have a brain. Try to use it. The reason we are so hated is because of what I said above. About you blowing some 14 year old kids fathers head off and him becomeing an antiamerican cleric hyping up the masses to kill americans. Generally speeking they guy went nutzo but hey, you blew his dads brains out. If I were in his shoes I can't say I wouldn't be just a tad bit pissed off at all <insert your nationality here>

quote So what branch were you in again?

At this point I don't see what difference it makes.

quote Have you had any NBC training? Do you know what a simple thing like CS gas ( teargas) feels like on your bare skin? I do and it's not pleasant.

Umm yeah.. I was in the military... remember? Duh, you arent very bright.

quote NBC weapons are not to be taken lightly they are the most inhumane instruments of death ever constructed, so why down play their existance in the hands of a pshycotic dictator that has used them on his own people?

Yup, most were banned by the Geneva Protocol / Convention . However many countries still have very large stockpiles of these deadly agents.. Including the good ole US of A. Nope we arent "producing it" but we have lots of it and can do so very quickly if needed. Hell we were nice enough to give some to Saddam.. see arent we such nice people? Always willing to help out a friend. gawd.. I get so teary eyed at how proud I am of my government. S N A P T H E F * * K O U T O F I T!!!!

I once lived not far from a place that had agents so toxic they could wipe out an very large population in a very short time. Most people never gave it a second though but I gotta admit, I didn't particularly like it and needless to say I no longer live there.. Yeah.. like that would help

quote I understand that America didn't play by the rules (if there even were rules)during the revolutionary war. Yes we didn't use standard tactics like standing in a column and firing, we used guerilla warfare-like tactics.Tactics are not rules they are methods.

Yup.. snipers...which was considered cowardly, enlisted the help of an enemy country.. which was considered very underhanded... and yes.. gurilla tactics which was considered "terroristic"... uh huh..

So why all the sudden are there "rules" and what makes you think that they are any more or less (to use your own word) "cowardly" than the founders of this country? What? Just because you "say so" or is it the propoganda machine churing around in your tiny head that makes you say that?

quote Originally posted by FIEROPHREK: This would only be true if the supply clerk had the same views as 84bill. There is a differance in being a proud soldier and the 10% that slid by . I know one guy that hated his term as a soldier in the army, but he still respects and understands the reason we are fighting this war . The supply clerk in ND most likely is a patiotic american who believes in his country and is doing what he can for the good old U S of A !

Oh I understand why I would be fighting over there if I were still in. It's very very simple. It's my job.

Another thing guy, I hate to burst your bubble but I served VERY proudly in the US Armed forces. I am also very very patriotic (far more than you could ever be) but my patriotism is very very well grounded by the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

quote 84 bill if you haven't figured out the 10% yet, it means SH!TBAG . God! ! ! someone get this guy a clue already !

No actually I had no clue SHITHEAD, thanks for filling me in.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 06-26-2006).]

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: It's more of a probability now than it was pre Iraq or Afghanistan. But the reality is it has always been a possibility going back for some 50 to 60 years or so. So yeah, I know I'm waiting for the big red cloud to happen, hope it never does but to think that it couldn't ever happen here in america is like sticking ones head in the sand. It's bound to happen eventually, it's just a matter of when and where at this point. With the ME is all whipped up and frothey at the mouth, each day is one day closer to death by sunburn.

What do you base this assesment on?
How many attacks against US targets have we had since we took the fight to them? Or are you joining the bury your head in the sand approach that if we move out completely they will no longer wish us harm.
Take a close look at Isreal and Gaza, Isreal pulled out said.. "Hey it's yours" they still continue to launch attacks against Isreal.

Then again 9/11 wasn't enough, Kobar towers wasnt enough, Iran embassy wasn't enough, USS Cole wasn't enough, 94 attack against the WTC wasn't enough, When will it be enough for you to figure out they don't just dislike us, they want us dead.
They declared war, we sat back and did nothing for over 20yrs and now we are paying in full.

Never mind.. until your dad is killed in an attack i'm sure you won't see the ME as a problem we have to deal with.

quote Originally posted by Uaana: Very selective memory you have there.

Hows that?

quote Flights were and have been delayed for years during presidental/vip visits.. Or do you not remember Clinton shutting down LAX to get a hair cut? (of course not.. didnt affect you directly)

Re-read my damn post please! I didn't say I was that the "same airport as the president" I said the president was 30 MILES AWAY AT 40,000 FEET. IE If I'm puttering along in my cessna 150 cruising at 2500 feet and the prez were to come within 30 nautical miles (regardless of his altitude) I'm forced to land or risk being shot out of the sky.

quote Centenial park, yes, why wasn't there screening of bags at the entry points? Christ just 2 yrs previous we'd been attacked at the WTC and it was blown off by the administration as just a local police issue. (guess they were to busy rousting loons in texas and seperatists in the mountains to worry about real issues)

Why? I'll tell you why. Because back then we werent scared little pussies afraid of some bogie man! Back then freedom was something we enjoyed alot more than we do now.

quote Good morning Sunshine..

**** you!

quote When did you suddenly realize that everything in your life is regulated? Or is just some selective derangement syndrom.. Drive a car? have tabs, drivers license? Use banks, they keep records too. Buy antihistamines and get logged at the pharmacy?

Suddenly? No, more like slowly and insideously chipping away at freedom one tiny piece at a time. Then came the patriot act. That was the straw that broke this cammels back.

quote Only diff I see is the measures that our current admin have put in place has been for security.. Unlike gun registraion laws, and other useless feel good laws that just want to take my money and turn uncle sugar into daddy sugar.

Those willing to give up liberty for a measure of security will get neither.

Give me liberty or give me death.

::: shruggs ::: Never though America to be the land of the regulated and home of the chickenshit candy asses. But, I duno how else to put it other than you people are scred little chickenshits. Be sure to put a towel under your sheets just in case a thunderstorm rolls though and you piss yourselves. Ya never know.. one of them boos could be the bogie man.... oooooohhhhhhh.....

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: ::: shruggs ::: Never though America to be the land of the regulated and home of the chickenshit candy asses. But, I duno how else to put it other than you people are scred little chickenshits.

ring . . ring . . .kettle this is the pot. . . . your black

------------------
HARDCORE SBC CRONIE AND PROUD OF IT ! GOT TQ ?

quote Originally posted by Uaana: What do you base this assesment on? How many attacks against US targets have we had since we took the fight to them? Or are you joining the bury your head in the sand approach that if we move out completely they will no longer wish us harm.

Unlike you, no. I'm not stading up pounding my chest and saying that I am invincable. Doesn't matter how secure the boarders, how many fences go up, how many laws are written, I will never feel safe. Only imprisoned.

quote Take a close look at Isreal and Gaza, Isreal pulled out said.. "Hey it's yours" they still continue to launch attacks against Isreal.

So? Like why do I care? If you are applying the same principal then it's just a matter of time before an attack happens here again. It's doesn't matter how much you fight or don't fight, the point of no return has past now all thats is left is for the fat lady to sing.

quote Then again 9/11 wasn't enough, plenty Kobar towers wasnt enough, who? Iran embassy wasn't enough, their country, they said "get out" and the US thumbed it's nose and dared them to thow us out... so they capture the embasy. What did you expect? A tea party? USS Cole wasn't enough, Had our assets been in home port where they belong... well. you get the idea. 94 attack against the WTC wasn't enough, It was a warning, one of many, the US once again as usual thumbed it's nose and dared them to.. again what did you expect?

quote When will it be enough for you to figure out they don't just dislike us, they want us dead.

Well.. I suppose you are right. But I'd like to know how a people can come to hate a people they hardly know. I can only surmize that they came into contact with a representitive of this country and had something really bad happen to them.

quote They declared war, we sat back and did nothing for over 20yrs and now we are paying in full.

No. They declared Jihad. Look it up and do some research on the ME find out who the players are and then tell me why they call it Jihad.

quote Never mind.. until your dad is killed in an attack i'm sure you won't see the ME as a problem we have to deal with.

No, again you are casting some pretty wild dispersions. The ME was never "my" problem. I inherited it from a previous generation that did not have any regard for a certin people. Who felt that much like the indians they could just sweep them asside without a problem like on so many other occasions. However, this group is a bit further away and very dificult to pin down. Kinda like the revolutionary war fought right here oh so long ago. Full circle. It's easy to control them when they are in your back yard but it's alot more dificult and not to mention very expensive when they are far away blending in with the "natives".


Speeking of selective memory.
You didn't learn very much from Vietnam did you? Well this enemy is alot harder to get at and way way more fanatical. Ya busted open a hornets nest and the stingin aint over, not by a long shot.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 06-26-2006).]

quote Originally posted by fierogtowner: As much as needed, I do have a gasmask but that is besides the point. No one would want that stuff released on the street except for the culprits. And how exactly would this stuff actually get here?

The point wasn't about how to get it here, although if terrorists got ahold of it, all bets are off. My point is - whether the stuff is "depleted" or not, it's still damn dangerous. This argument about nerve and mustard gas being depleted, therefore not a threat to anyone, is picking gnatshit out of pepper.

Suddendly these degraded chemical munitions become of interest even when we've known about these for a long time from the Gulf War.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Bill, do I REALLY need to point out the obvious AGAIN. We were attacked on an annaul basis with innocent American CIVILIANS being brutally murdered by terrorists in 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, and 2001 <----the last year that it happened. This war has STOPPED the blood letting of innocent victims and it has made clear to terroists that terror DOES NOT WORK anymore as a means of negotiation. I've watched terrorist since 1968 get awy scott free and I am truly sorry than youths like you were not around to see it happen. You would think differently today otherwise. It's the best thing that has happened to us.

Uh huh, So thats it huh? Like I indicated to Uaana you are going to stand there an pound your chest?

Since the war there have been numerous attacks on allies. But I guess those don't count do they?

quote Why should you care indeed. That is what our governement said in the early half of the 20th century that CAUSED this anti-American hatred to begin with.

Really?
From what I've heard it started around November 1947 and has spiraled downhill from there. Atleast thats what the Muslims say.

quote Start caring or the attacks will keep coming. That is Bush's philosophy. We are just there to fix 100 years of oppression of previous admins and it tragic you can't see that.

Nice leap. You go from 1993 to 1906. I somehow doubt the people over there gave a rats ass about Americans in 1906. From what I can gather Americans could pretty much roam the middle east without loosing their heads.

quote Oops, I forgot it's all about oil. Yep, that $3.10 gallon of gas sure is a God Send now that we "control" the oil.

Control.... yes.

quote I stand corrected. As for THIS war I can't disagree with you more as per the reasons above. If we are to stop terrorism we need to remove them and repair the systems that caused their origination.

You will never defeat terrorism. Terrorism is a tactic and you cant defeat a tactic.

quote War is nto GOOD. Sheesh at least quote me when you put word in quotes and attribute them to me. I said war is at times "NECESSARY" and THIS war is MOST DEFINITELY necessary. Again, you are reating yourself, the reasons are ALL previously stated.

I believe the word would be "not" as in War is "not" GOOD. You wrote this several posts ago.

quote I knwo that this war is the best thing that ever happed to this country.

Instead of being a nit picker focusing on a typeo I decided to look beyond it. Not to mention the quote "War is not good" wasnt your quote so why would I quote it?

I further agreed (IF you took the time to actually read what I said) that war is sometimes necessary however, I also said that WAR IS NOT GOOD under any circumstances. It is an option of last resort. However as I also said in previous posts the United States government has been waging war for as long as I can remember. For a country that touts itseld as a "PEACE loving people" we sure to wage a hell of alot of WAR. You may not find this trend disturbing but I do for a variety of reasons.

quote Of course. Who isn't willing to die for his country is simply a coward. Period. As I has stated in other threads I am color blind and the military won't take me. That is NO different today than it was when I was 18 sitting in front of an Army Recuiter on Peachtree Street in Atlanta. I also have 2 babies to feed and a mortgage to pay so my contribution will have to come in other forms. But rest assures that is Bin Laden marched into Morgan Hill, I couldn't grab my 30-06 fast enough!

Haliburton is hiring.
From what I understand they pay fairly well. As for the rest of your lame excuses about babies and mortgages it doesn't seem to matter to you when a soldier has these things but is forced to go play in your sand box for a year or two at a time.

So what piss poor excuse are you going to come up with now?

quote Bill, in case you are under some sort of illusion about what is required to become a soldier let me enlighten youn, It requires two things, a healthy body and a gut full of resolve. No disrespect to our men and women in uniform but the obvious needs to be stated, it is does NOT take much brains to be a soldier.

LOL.. You?
The guy who has never been through military training is going to tell me what it takes to be a soldier?
LOL!! thats freaking funny!

quote It DOES take brains to determine the policies that the soldier enforces for his country.

LMAO!!
Yeah, "I'ma uniter, not a divider"

Thanks for the comic relief, it's always welcome.

quote YES Bill, WE ARE TALKING about 9/11. The war is Iraq is to prevent another 9/11. Duh, that was the point of the war...to stop terrorists from getting WMD...ringing any bells? See quotes above.

Ummm no. As it has turned out Saddam was putting up a front. Even if he WAS intending to take over the planet that threat is currently zero. Time to pack up and head for home.

quote No Bill....sigh. The question is NOT are the 2500 less significant than the 3200. The question is WHY aren't you as enraged about the 3200 (who's loss is FAR MORE wasteful) than the 2500? You whine like a school girl about 2500 deaths in 3 years in a war that is unarguably reducing terror attacks on our country and yet 3200 American boys were slaughter in 6 hours for NOTHING, and not a freaking peep out of you.

Thats war Todd. People die. I'm sure you are very much aware of the 2500 dead but have you given ANY consideration to the other 12,005 wounded? Don't hear much about the guys missing arms, legs or how about the other guys who never come back.. no not the dead ones, usually enough of them can be scraped off the ground and sent back but the ones who mentally break and go coocoo.

quote What am I to conclude but that you are merely playing politics and not REALLY thinking this matter through.

No, Actually I'm trying to educate myself.

quote Read ALL of my previous posts/ I refuse to repeat what has been said a hundred times already Bill. We are there to protect American lives. sheesh just read my post above with the quotes from John Kerry to The Iraqi Nuclear Scientist.

I did. What Ive read so far goes something like this.
It's better to have the miltary sacreficing their lives so I can sit here safe and sound, watch American Idol and not have to worry about a big mushroom cloud.

quote I say, "Why are we there?" You say, "fighting for freedom" I say, "we already have freedom" You say, "No no.. to give Iraqis freedom" I say, "They can fight for freedom for themselves.. IF they want it." You say, "no they can't, they arent capable." I say, Yes they can, they are doing it right now." You say, "NO, those are terrorists." I say, "NO, those are freedom fighters fighting to be free from America occupation." This says it all Bill. You just lost everybody on this forum.

So now you are the speeker of the forum?

quote That army was controled by Saddam...a dictator. and THEIR freedom IS our business. Without it, more Americans would have died needlessly.

And the US army is controlled by the King who is representitive of the the people who will ultimatly suffer for the actions of all the previously mentioned.

quote No Bill, if that were the case we would have 121 American soldiers hiding in Canada.

You have always said, "if you don't like this country you can leave it" Well, they left it. I'm not making any excuses for their actions but I also can't say it was wrong of them.

quote Bravery is from the gut, not a job description.

Can't argue with that

quote No piece of paper you have proves you are brave. Sorry to disappoint you.

Definatly can't argue about that but I'd like to add.

Nor does a piece of paper say you are any smarter than anyone else.

quote Pain is a part of life Bill and if you think it is possible to "legislate" pain away you are truly out of your mind. This statement actually proves you are a coward. Sorry Bill just stating what everyone else is thinking.

No, legislation can never alieviate pain. The cowardly act is actually thinking that it can. I have NEVER been a proponent of legislation so your assumption that I have been proven a coward by thinking legislation can save me or protect me from something is 180 degrees out. I have ALWAYS maintained that legislation is useless.

quote Bravery is being scared and doing it anyway! That is what bravery is Bill, not your discharge certificate.

Can't argue that.
Why do you think I expose myself to constant attack in expressing my opinions here on this forum? It's not because I'm scared of what others on this forum might think. It's because I stand and argue for what I believe in instead of cutting and running. Do you think I really care if someone thinks I'm the town idiot, psychopath, isolationist and or sociaopath? LOL!

Some have called me brave for voicing the opinions that I do but I don't really care to be labeled that either. Just being 84Bill and anything less in my eyes is unacceptable.

quote Bravery is being a father, working every day like a dog, and NOT expecting anything in return but the knowledge that you are doing right. I am not entitled Bill, that is YOUR problem, remember? I am only saying that I know some REAL heros and it gives me insight that a person like you could never know. You call these soldiers your borthers and yet they all disown you, at least the ones I know do. Want to explain to my Brother in Law, Major Al Tabarez who was an instructor at Fort Irwin and did 2 tours in Afghanistan and who thinks you are a coward (based on his last viewing of a post of yours from last Christmas) why you are his "brother"? He';s stationed in Hawaii these days I'll be happy to forward your email.

Blaaaah blaaah bravery blaaah buhh blahhh my brother in law bluhh blahhh blah bluhh sacreficed bluhh balls and my bluhhh fought in the arden. Bluhh bla blahh bluhhh so don't tell me bluhhhh blahh bluh bluh bluh because blahhh bluh and my grandfather blahh bluh bluh bluhh.

Whatever Todd. Your pedigree does not mean you can make some claim to fame.
I have a very diverse family tree as well, many of which have served honorably in the US armed forces too. One of which just retired as a General. I don't ride coat tail and make some gradiose claims to fame on their backs. I can stand on my own in that respect.

quote Yes there is Bill, read the second sentence.

Oh.. it's necessary. So you dispell your mourning by saying.
Sorry for your loss but it was necessary... NEXT! Sorry for your loss but it was necessary.... NEXT! Sorry for your loss but it was necessary... NEXT! Sorry for your loss but it was necessary.... NEXT! Sorry for your loss but it was necessary... NEXT! Sorry for your loss but it was necessary.... NEXT! Sorry for your loss but it was necessary... NEXT! Sorry for your loss but it was necessary.... NEXT! Sorry for your loss but it was necessary... NEXT! Sorry for your loss but it was necessary.... NEXT!

Repeat 24,000 more times.

quote Becasue that is the cost of freedom and if you don't know that I truly pity you.

Freedom?
We already have freedom.
Not sure if you are aware of this but since your fight for freedom began... we have lost yet another piece of it to the enemy.

Sorry for your loss but it was necessary... Sorry for your loss but it was necessary.... Sorry for your loss but it was necessary... Sorry for your loss but it was necessary....Sorry for your loss but it was necessary... Sorry for your loss but it was necessary....Sorry for your loss but it was necessary... Sorry for your loss but it was necessary....

Repeat 295,734,134 more times.

The crazier the world becomes, the more sense Bill makes.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Doesn't matter how secure the boarders, how many fences go up, how many laws are written, I will never feel safe. Only imprisoned. - Seek therapy.. this is not healthy So? Like why do I care? If you are applying the same principal then it's just a matter of time before an attack happens here again. It's doesn't matter how much you fight or don't fight, the point of no return has past now all thats is left is for the fat lady to sing. See above Well.. I suppose you are right. But I'd like to know how a people can come to hate a people they hardly know. I can only surmize that they came into contact with a representitive of this country and had something really bad happen to them. Human nature, the more different a society from another more issues will be created. Really? From what I've heard it started around November 1947 and has spiraled downhill from there. Atleast thats what the Muslims say.

The Muslims really aren't the problem, the Islamist extremists are. 1947 is pretty close to a good starting date for when stuff really started to turn with the mideast.
The countries over there figured out they had oil and that everyone else wanted it. They wanted our money and gold but not our civilization.. They got measures of both, once they made themselves indespensible to the rest of the world the world had an interest in what happend there.

You will never defeat terrorism. Terrorism is a tactic and you cant defeat a tactic.
About the only really intelligent thing you've said so far, like declaring a war on avaition after Pearl Harbor.
The war should be against Islam. Sounds all ickly and a throwback to the crusades. Only this time it's not about converting them to a new religion its about slapping them in the head and getting them to resemble 21st century behaviour.
We (The US) are critisized for still having the death penalty, these ppl still cut off body parts and heads plus other various barbaric methods as part of their "justice" system.

Tell you what, since you like being paranoid.. If you're bored.. Heres some fiction written recently.
http://www.dansimmons.com/news/message/2006_04.htm

from the link that started this pontification-fest:

'approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent....
thought to be manufactured before 1991 so they would not be proof of an ongoing WMD program in the 1990s....
senior Defense Department official pointed out that the chemical weapons were not in useable conditions...."This does not reflect a capacity that was built up after 1991," the official said, adding the munitions "are not the WMDs this country and the rest of the world believed Iraq had, and not the WMDs for which this country went to war."'
we're talking about 15+ year old artillery shells here.
somebody lied. senior DOD official? maybe. saddam? certainly. our elected leaders? unfortunately, yes.

quote Originally posted by lurker: from the link that started this pontification-fest: 'approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent.... thought to be manufactured before 1991 so they would not be proof of an ongoing WMD program in the 1990s.... senior Defense Department official pointed out that the chemical weapons were not in useable conditions...."This does not reflect a capacity that was built up after 1991," the official said, adding the munitions "are not the WMDs this country and the rest of the world believed Iraq had, and not the WMDs for which this country went to war."' we're talking about 15+ year old artillery shells here. somebody lied. senior DOD official? maybe. saddam? certainly. our elected leaders? unfortunately, yes.

Lied? or like most people and leaders. Went with the best info available at that time.
Don't make me drag up a list of everyone that considered Saddam and his weapons programs a threat at the time.
The list is long and on record from both sides, and numerous nations.

quote Originally posted by fierogtowner: Suddendly these degraded chemical munitions become of interest even when we've known about these for a long time from the Gulf War.

Ah, yes, the Gulf War argument. First you folks say that Bush 1 should have gone into Iraq to get rid of Saddam. Then, you criticize Bush 2 for going into Iraq to get rid of Saddam. I wish you'd stop doing that, you're making me dizzy

Most of those on your "List" received their information from the same Liars.
Most of those on your "list" never were told that the informant was a alcoholic, not mentally stable and a known fabricator.
The administration "was told", but needed to use known false information and Did.
Seem everyone knows that but a few bush die hards.

quote Originally posted by Uaana: The Muslims really aren't the problem, the Islamist extremists are. 1947 is pretty close to a good starting date for when stuff really started to turn with the mideast. The countries over there figured out they had oil and that everyone else wanted it. They wanted our money and gold but not our civilization.. They got measures of both, once they made themselves indespensible to the rest of the world the world had an interest in what happend there.

With power comes corruption.

quote You will never defeat terrorism. Terrorism is a tactic and you cant defeat a tactic. About the only really intelligent thing you've said so far, like declaring a war on avaition after Pearl Harbor.

Actually this is the only thing you AGREE with me on. Intelligence is not the measure by which to judge a persons ability to voice an opinion. Anyone can do that. However, I need to point out that you are agreeing with a "crazy" person so in that context I feel the need to question your judgement on my intelligence. Either you were wrong to judge my character / intelligence or you are wrong to agree with my opinion. You arent getting both but you can take either.

quote The war should be against Islam. Sounds all ickly and a throwback to the crusades.

Well.. you just said "Muslims really aren't the problem, the Islamist extremists are." So which is it? Islam (the religion) or muslims (the people who practice it)?

quote Only this time it's not about converting them to a new religion its about slapping them in the head and getting them to resemble 21st century behaviour.

Hummmmm.... Yes. Now is that your belief... or is it theirs? Because to a muslim it matters greatly which hand you use to do the smacking. Even further.. what would their perceptions be of a person who slaps them? I understand the metaphor you are getting at and I'm just adding to it.

quote We (The US) are critisized for still having the death penalty, these ppl still cut off body parts and heads plus other various barbaric methods as part of their "justice" system.

It's all realitive. If you really look at it we are all realitives.

quote Tell you what, since you like being paranoid.. If you're bored.. Heres some fiction written recently. http://www.dansimmons.com/news/message/2006_04.htm

Me? Paranoid? Hehehhhee No, I'm a nut job remember? If anything your perceptions of me are a paranoia in and of themselves.

Thanks
I usually don't take advice or reading material from people who try to pigeon hole me because unfortunatly it taints the material. Perhaps another time and another link.

Bear , Is that the" blind pig" form of government you're describing.

[This message has been edited by Wolfhound (edited 06-27-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Wolfhound: Most of those on your "List" received their information from the same Liars. Most of those on your "list" never were told that the informant was a alcoholic, not mentally stable and a known fabricator. The administration "was told", but needed to use known false information and Did. Seem everyone knows that but a few bush die hards.

Classic case of BDS
The list aside from Foreign intel agencies (Britan, France, Russia) had access to the same raw data that Bush had. (They were in the senate and house intel committes who are allowed independant access to intel reports.)
Former President Clinton and VP Gore who also received raw intel data from CIA and NSA during their security breifings are also on record as saying Saddam was a threat.

So do you really need us to drag up the statements made prior to Bush becoming president?

Ya know..... There are very few times when I feel like.... well... Ya know?

quote Originally posted by Formula88: The crazier the world becomes, the more sense Bill makes.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: In all fairness to lurker, he is using hindsight, at best. It's always easy to look back and say "I told you so". It's the people who really get things done that occasionally have to say "ooops, we didn't get it quite right".

now there's a backhanded compliment if i ever saw one.
well ok then, "i told you so". if you go back and look at my posts about the time this mess started, you'll see that i thought saddam was a murderous tyrant who needed to be removed, that i acknowledged that he had had and used WMDs against kurds and iranians prior to the gulf war, that i had doubts about whether he still had WMDs, and that i thought the administration's policy of invasion was a poor solution to an ill-defined problem. in hindsight, i think my foresight was pretty good.

bahh...

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 06-27-2006).]

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Yes. Because there were highly paid intelligence people who's jobs were to examing the data carefuly and deliver results. They were told time and time again that the results were "wrong", to go back, re examine the data again and report back. Time and time again the results were the same. There no real threat, it's a front. It was almost as if the cabinet were sending a message that went something like "Look, this is what we want... not this, now go back, look over the data gain and give us what we want." to a guy who spent his entire life examining and understanding the finer workings of Iraq. This wasnt some greenhorn fresh from school but a guy who knew the people, the government and the workings of Iraq. In addition, he was paid very well for his "expertise" on the subject.

And this same expert told all the other allied intel agencies what they should think?

No, I don't believe it is the job of any expert to tell anyone be it an intelligence agency or other what they should think.

Facts..
:::Frump goes the report on the table::: "Heres what I've gathered."

These people arent paid great summs of money to "think" because it's not their job to do that.

quote Originally posted by Uaana: And this same expert told all the other allied intel agencies what they should think?

quote Originally posted by lurker: now there's a backhanded compliment if i ever saw one. well ok then, "i told you so". if you go back and look at my posts about the time this mess started, you'll see that i thought saddam was a murderous tyrant who needed to be removed, that i acknowledged that he had had and used WMDs against kurds and iranians prior to the gulf war, that i had doubts about whether he still had WMDs, and that i thought the administration's policy of invasion was a poor solution to an ill-defined problem. in hindsight, i think my foresight was pretty good.

It wasn't meant as an insult. I just think that "I told you so" positions based upon hindsight are not very impressive. However, if you said that from the start, then you are excused from that criticism. Sorry if it sounded that way.

[This message has been edited by fierobear (edited 06-27-2006).]