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Question on illegal workers by JazzMan
Started on: 04-10-2006 01:56 PM
Replies: 155
Last post by: Songman on 04-20-2006 01:46 PM
84fiero123
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Report this Post04-12-2006 08:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Direct Link to This Post
Why should a company make money buy screwing the people that have worked for them and made the company as big as it is.

Gianbro is a big company here in Maine.

Take a look at their website.

http://www.cianbro.com/

------------------
technology is great when it works
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

Hey I own page 3.http://www.smileybee.com/s/455.gif

[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 04-12-2006).]

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fierobear
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Report this Post04-12-2006 09:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierobearClick Here to Email fierobearSend a Private Message to fierobearDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:

I owned stock in General Motors. Still do.

When I worked there I owned more than I do now.

Then I have a tip for you - sell GM, buy oil company stocks. They're making good money right now.

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pokeyfiero
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Report this Post04-12-2006 09:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pokeyfieroClick Here to visit pokeyfiero's HomePageClick Here to Email pokeyfieroSend a Private Message to pokeyfieroDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:

Why should a company make money buy screwing the people that have worked for them and made the company as big as it is.

Gianbro is a big company here in Maine.

Take a look at their website.

http://www.cianbro.com/

Thats a nice web site.

I have read the last couple posts by you and don't see you making any points. Other than you are displeased with your position in life What are you trying to say?
You are sounding like Bill. Just plain angry.

Also .. What the heck does owning stock have to do with anything.

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jstricker
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Report this Post04-12-2006 09:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jstrickerClick Here to Email jstrickerSend a Private Message to jstrickerDirect Link to This Post
If it's all about the money, Bill, they're better off with a wink and a nod at fake SS cards. With those, the employer witholds the taxes and also pays into the SS system and there's no legitimate person to receive the benefits, it's all gravy to the govt.

I've *HEARD* that there were democratic activists working these recent demonstrations signing up people, even illegals, to register to vote. Now personally, I'm not sure I put any stock at all in those reports for a couple of reasons. First, you can't register to vote on the street in most states. Second, Hispanics typically identify with the conservatives on religious and social issues and in fact, without them GWB probably wouldn't be President, so all of that crap sounds a little flaky to me.

Last, I'm really getting more and more opposed to amnesty the more I think about it. If they allow people in this country illegally to flaunt the law and then go ahead and let them become citizens, then what good are ANY laws. I've been speeding on the highway most of my life. I want amnesty too, dammit! After all, I've done it for so long, I've never hurt anybody with it, I've paid my taxes and volunteer for a lot of stuff, so why shouldn't I get a freebie on my speeding?

We are either a nation of laws or we're not. If we're not, cool, I can deal with that. My house it protected by Remington, Colt, and Kimber .45, amongst others. I can make my own law and justice if we're not going to do it through society anymore. But if we ARE a nation of laws, those laws are for everybody and the people that ARE here, ILLEGALLY, should at least be sent back where they came from and at worst, arrested and punished in the court system.

John Stricker

 
quote
Originally posted by 84Bill:

Fact is John our government want more money. The best way to get that money is through it's citizens. The ideal situation is to legalize them, get them on the books and collect the taxes due. Companies OTOH want to keep the illegal labor because it's ecconomical.

Ultimatly I don't give a rats ass about corporations but I DO want them to pay their taxes like I do. So I'm in favor of amnisty and eventual citizenship. HOWEVER it will cause a major problem with education which is seriously lacking already.


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jstricker
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Report this Post04-12-2006 09:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jstrickerClick Here to Email jstrickerSend a Private Message to jstrickerDirect Link to This Post

jstricker

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Bill and I have traded barbs and jabs for many years now. I've never really thought him to be ANGRY except on rare occasions, and this isn't one of them. I think he gets frustrated a lot, but I don't think he's particularly angry at anything. He also posted not long ago that he had about $29,000 in income last year which is a HUGE turnaround for him and not one I'm particularly surprised at. Good for you Bill (taxes and garnishments aside, the garnishments won't go on forever). Heck, I'd be honored to meet him and go for a few beers sometime if I ever make it to Florida again, in spite of our political differences.

John Stricker

 
quote
Originally posted by pokeyfiero:

Other than you are displeased with your position in life What are you trying to say?
You are sounding like Bill. Just plain angry.

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Report this Post04-12-2006 09:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jstrickerClick Here to Email jstrickerSend a Private Message to jstrickerDirect Link to This Post

jstricker

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You didn't own and run a business, you owned stock in a company. Not the same thing.

John Stricker

 
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:

I owned stock in General Motors. Still do.

When I worked there I owned more than I do now.

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84fiero123
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Report this Post04-12-2006 10:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Direct Link to This Post
Not to nitpick but the question was ,

ď Did I ever own a business?Ē

There is a big difference, Your right John.

Why is it all right for a business no matter how large or small to take the people who have worked for them for years, helped build the company into what it is. Not union workers.

Letís just tell the truth. Cianbro is huge they are all over the eastern seaboard.

Yet they pay journeymen Welders $12 to $16 an hour. That is the top wage for this company. They are not paying union scale by any stretch.

Painters only make $12 an hour, and those are men and women who have been there for years.

Lets see all of these men and women worked for this company for years yet when Cianbro found a way to bring in Mexicans for Minimum wage they laid off the people that had worked for them for years.

Now that's how you run a company right?
The bottom line right?

You know what I am angered about is you guys think this is OK.

That's the way you run a business.

Fine Iím glad I donít have to work with you.

Iím glad I donít have to work for you.

See the problem with running a company this way is that eventually you run out of customers to buy your products because everyone is making minimum wage. Or even better they are all Illegal making less than minimum wage and you have no on to buy what you make.

------------------
technology is great when it works
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

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jstricker
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Report this Post04-12-2006 11:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jstrickerClick Here to Email jstrickerSend a Private Message to jstrickerDirect Link to This Post
Quit being pissed at me. You don't know how I run my businesses. I didn't comment on if it was right, or wrong, the way this company did business. You were asked if you had ever owned a business. You knew full well what fierobear was asking you and you chose to give a smartass answer. Fine. The answer is no, you've never owned and managed your own business. Paid your own employees. Taken care of all the regulatory, legal, and financial problems that owning and running your own business entails. That's all you had to say instead of answering "yes" to his question when you obviously haven't.

John Stricker

 
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:

Not to nitpick but the question was ,

ď Did I ever own a business?Ē

There is a big difference, Your right John.

Why is it all right for a business no matter how large or small to take the people who have worked for them for years, helped build the company into what it is. Not union workers.

Letís just tell the truth. Cianbro is huge they are all over the eastern seaboard.

Yet they pay journeymen Welders $12 to $16 an hour. That is the top wage for this company. They are not paying union scale by any stretch.

Painters only make $12 an hour, and those are men and women who have been there for years.

Lets see all of these men and women worked for this company for years yet when Cianbro found a way to bring in Mexicans for Minimum wage they laid off the people that had worked for them for years.

Now that's how you run a company right?
The bottom line right?

You know what I am angered about is you guys think this is OK.

That's the way you run a business.

Fine Iím glad I donít have to work with you.

Iím glad I donít have to work for you.

See the problem with running a company this way is that eventually you run out of customers to buy your products because everyone is making minimum wage. Or even better they are all Illegal making less than minimum wage and you have no on to buy what you make.

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ka4nkf
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Report this Post04-13-2006 12:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ka4nkfClick Here to Email ka4nkfSend a Private Message to ka4nkfDirect Link to This Post
John
I have never seen it fail, that people who have never been in business can always tell the man or woman thats in business what they are doing wrong. And if some of you don't think the business man or woman does not pay taxes, you are flat wrong. The wealthy people pay most of all the taxes in this country, you can believe it or not, but it is the truth. I know there are some bad company's ,but most of them are good and treat their employees pretty decent. Look at Walmart and all of the people they employee. I am no means in the wealthy class, but I respect those that are. If you want to ***** about someone making loads of money and not worthy of it, then look at your football players, and baseball players. Also take a look at Katie Courig On The NBC news, Is she worth 65 million for a seven year term. I am glad she gets it, just proves she is much smarter than me. I like This Country and I would not trade my place for any other Country, Although there is things that I do not like , But the good out ways the bad.
Don
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84fiero123
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Report this Post04-13-2006 06:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Direct Link to This Post
John I can not read you or anyone else on hereís mind.

Funny how fierobear is more or less saying that this is OK. The hireling of Illegals.

Funny how everyone here that owns a business think the illegal immigrants are not a bad thing. Everyone that works thinks just the opposite.

John have you ever had to work next to someone who canít speak English?

Fierobear is it possible maybe that you are just angry because I donít know the problems of owning a business?
You sure are getting really pissed when I say something is wrong. Then you Attack me.

Is it right or wrong to higher illegal aliens?

Simple question fierobear, John and anyone else who owns a business.

We already know how Larry feels about this. He thinks they are the only ones willing to work.

I got news for him.

Up until I had my stroke it was not out of the ordinary for me to work 12, 16 hour shifts 6 to 7 days a week.


------------------
technology is great when it works
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

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84fiero123
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Report this Post04-13-2006 06:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Direct Link to This Post
Cianbro was making money on this contract for the oil rigs. before they hired the Mexicans.

Why was it necessary to lay off people who work for them for years and hire illegal immigrants?

------------------
technology is great when it works
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

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84fiero123
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Report this Post04-13-2006 06:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Click Here to Email 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Direct Link to This Post

84fiero123

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Funny John how you only see part of my answer and completely dismiss every other part of my answer.

Was what Cianbro did right?

------------------
technology is great when it works
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

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Report this Post04-13-2006 07:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 84BillClick Here to visit 84Bill's HomePageSend a Private Message to 84BillDirect Link to This Post
I've never traded barbs with you John. I have far too much respect for someone that works the earth for a living. As far as laws are concerned.. fuggem, 90% are BS to begin with. Laws are simply ment to keep honest people in line. From here out my attitude is
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Report this Post04-13-2006 08:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jstrickerClick Here to Email jstrickerSend a Private Message to jstrickerDirect Link to This Post
John I can not read you or anyone else on hereís mind.

Nobody asked you to

Funny how fierobear is more or less saying that this is OK. The hireling of Illegals.

I wouldn't call it funny. I wouldn't say that I agree with that particular stance either.

Funny how everyone here that owns a business think the illegal immigrants are not a bad thing. Everyone that works thinks just the opposite.

1) I own more than one business and I think businesses that hire illegal aliens should be prosecuted vigorously to the full extent of the law.
2) Your implication that anyone that owns a business doesn't work for a living is narrow minded and ignorant.

John have you ever had to work next to someone who canít speak English?

Yes. So what?

Fierobear is it possible maybe that you are just angry because I donít know the problems of owning a business?

I can't speak for Fierobear, but I become annoyed when you have the attitude that people that own businesses don't work and that business owners are so stupid they should just let their employees run the businesses. You have no idea what it takes to own and run a business. OTOH, very few business owners did not come from the workforce. Same thing I tell my kid. "I've been 20, you've never been 49." He doesn't listen either because he's so certain he knows better. Sound familiar?

You sure are getting really pissed when I say something is wrong. Then you Attack me.

I know the bear personally. Believe me, this is not pissed for him.

Is it right or wrong to higher illegal aliens?

Been covered already. To me, if we are a nation of laws, it is illegal to hire them and therefore wrong.

Simple question fierobear, John and anyone else who owns a business.

And an answer I've given multiple times in this thread, if you had read the answers

We already know how Larry feels about this. He thinks they are the only ones willing to work.

Most Latinos have a very high work ethic. Most. Not all. Most. Many whites, blacks, and others do not. Many people DO place themselves as "too good" for a job. Many. Not all. Many. Regardless of their work ethic, it's illegal and wrong to hire an illegal alien. The real problem is not that there are JOBS some people won't do, but that there are JOBS that some people won't do for the price an illegal alien will do them. Why? Because the illegal is under more pressure to get said job. For citizens, there is a safety net of welfare, WIC, unemployment, union, etc. The illegal alien has nothing. They work or starve. So they work while others won't.

I got news for him.

Up until I had my stroke it was not out of the ordinary for me to work 12, 16 hour shifts 6 to 7 days a week.

Whoop-de-do. Welcome to my world from April through November. Then we slack off to 9-10 hour days. That doesn't make you qualified or capable to own a business or make management decisions, it just makes you someone that will work long hours. That is one thing that you WOULD hate about me. I work those hours myself, in the tractor and shop, so I don't have to hire another employee. I'm sure you think that, since I own my own business, I shouldn't do that as I'm taking work from someone that needs it more. Tough. Screw them. My business, my money, I decide. That doesn't mean I treat my employees poorly. They don't get a lot of money, but they get a huge list of benefits. But the management decisions, and those include who and how many to hire, are mine. There is no mistake who the boss, and who the employee is. That's how it should be. That's how it must be. If not, you have the inmates running the insane asylum. Now what does any of your last points have to do with the topic at hand?

John Stricker

[This message has been edited by jstricker (edited 04-13-2006).]

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fierobear
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Report this Post04-13-2006 10:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierobearClick Here to Email fierobearSend a Private Message to fierobearDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:

Funny how fierobear is more or less saying that this is OK. The hireling of Illegals.

When did I say that?

 
quote
Funny how everyone here that owns a business think the illegal immigrants are not a bad thing. Everyone that works thinks just the opposite.

Everyone?

 
quote
Fierobear is it possible maybe that you are just angry because I donít know the problems of owning a business?
You sure are getting really pissed when I say something is wrong. Then you Attack me.

Angry? Nope, not even close. Perhaps slightly irritated by your attitude that business owners are all dumb, greedy, only care about buying another BMW, want to fire all white people so they can employ slave labor, yadda yadda. It seemed pretty obvious that you'd never owned/run a business.

 
quote
Is it right or wrong to higher illegal aliens?

Simple question fierobear, John and anyone else who owns a business.

That's an interesting question, not that simple, and one that is open to interpretation. Do you mean legally or morally?

[This message has been edited by fierobear (edited 04-13-2006).]

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Report this Post04-13-2006 01:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JazzManClick Here to Email JazzManSend a Private Message to JazzManDirect Link to This Post
Fierobear, why don't you ask Pokey to only hire workers that you and he truly believe are not illegal, not just workers that can produce papers that appear legal at a glance. Tell him to put some real meaningful effort into verifying the identity of the people he hires. Will that cost more money? Dunno, but it's the ethical thing to do and most people's ethics aren't for sale to the lowest bidder.

JazzMan

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Report this Post04-13-2006 02:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierobearClick Here to Email fierobearSend a Private Message to fierobearDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan:

Fierobear, why don't you ask Pokey to only hire workers that you and he truly believe are not illegal, not just workers that can produce papers that appear legal at a glance. Tell him to put some real meaningful effort into verifying the identity of the people he hires. Will that cost more money? Dunno, but it's the ethical thing to do and most people's ethics aren't for sale to the lowest bidder.

JazzMan

Because...

1. We're only talking a few days work.

2. It's my personal house, not a business project.

3. Pokey is a friend who needs some work, not a contractor.

4. If I take the time to make sure we only get documented workers, it delays my house being finished. I need to finish and put it on the market, because paying two mortgages is a b***h.

Look at it this way. If you asked a friend to help you move all that rock in your back yard, and he said that you need another helper, would you go through the trouble of getting a documented worker, and would you file a 1099 with the IRS for your friend and the laborer for a few days work?

[This message has been edited by fierobear (edited 04-13-2006).]

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Report this Post04-13-2006 03:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pokeyfieroClick Here to visit pokeyfiero's HomePageClick Here to Email pokeyfieroSend a Private Message to pokeyfieroDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan:

Fierobear, why don't you ask Pokey to only hire workers that you and he truly believe are not illegal, not just workers that can produce papers that appear legal at a glance. Tell him to put some real meaningful effort into verifying the identity of the people he hires. Will that cost more money? Dunno, but it's the ethical thing to do and most people's ethics aren't for sale to the lowest bidder.

JazzMan

Jazz have you read any of my responses ? To me it seems you are just sitting up on your higher than others chair knowing all.

Simply put Jazz there are no available workers here. Unless you are interested in hiring drug addicts or bums.
Pull that thorn out of your ass. It is the way it is for a reason. For all your intelligence what you seem to lack in real world experience is incredible.

Did you know I could hire from a temp agency cheaper than what I pay for a latino? Yep. I would only have to pay 11 bucks an hour.
What would I get for that. Nothing is what I would get. A useles parolee that can't work. Is it my responsability to sift through people time and again at my expense to find a good worker? I think you believe it is. I don't believe it is. I believe the guy that wants the job should be seking me out. Cream rises every time and thats all I want. I am not interested in charity and that is all I would be doing by hiring the way you want.

Lucky for me you are not the one making the decision. Even if the guy was white I would still pay him cash anyway. It isn't enough money to go through the hassles. It isn't a business transaction. From my perspective this is just a blip on the screen. This is just the smallest of jobs. I am actually a contractor. My whole family is in the business. I started my little brother out in business. I have started my own employees out in business. I have had literally hundreds of employees. I was running crews of 15 or more when I was 14 years old. I know a bit about people and I feel very competent in my ability to profile. I am not running a big gig here. This is just a little thing. I am helping John do something that would otherwise cost him horrendous amounts if I was doing it as a company. He is helping me by having me do it. It lets me get back into shape at a safe pace. It occupys my mind so I can stay sane. I have issues and I need to keep busy so I can't thank john enoough for the oppertunity he is proving me. I can't run a company right now. I ran into a debilitating illness. It is just recently I am able to put in full days a couple days a week. I am basically only worth my knowlege right now and fortunatly that is extensive or I would be dead broke.
So try and understand this is not a job or a company getting away with some criminal conspiracy. Move your fixation onto the actaul discussion and as politly as I can say it mind your own business.As I said before I am not stopping them from reporting their income. Do you hang around and make sure your waitress reports her tips? What not a good comparrison/ It is because thats how freaking trivial this is from my perspective. The tax I have paid to this governmet our government is easily hundreds of times more than you will probably ever pay. In essence I pay a lot more for the same rights in this country than you do yet you look down on me and you do it with out a clue as to what you are talking about.

In short just drop it.

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Formula88
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Report this Post04-13-2006 03:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post
pokey, it sounds like to me you're essentially saying "Yeah, I break the law, but only a little cuz I'm not that big of a business. Besides, I've paid taxes, so I'm entitled."

I'd have to disagree. If you are "running crews" that means you have a staff. If you're a contractor, that means you are a business. Paying any employee cash under the table is tax evasion. Hiring an illegal alien is a second crime.

And yes, they are just that - crimes. Now in your perspective they may just be a blip and not worthy of concern, but others may not see it that way. Kind of like driving 5 over the speed limit is a crime, but you're not really conerned - until you get a ticket that is.

When does helping a friend do a job cross the line and become a contractor being hired to do a job? I'm not sure if there even is a legal line to cross.

I wish you well and hope you recover quickly from your illness. I hope your business practices don't take you afoul of the law, but I realize people break all kinds of laws every day with no consequence. Many aren't worth prosecution. Some are. If you end up on the wrong side of the DA's desk, well, good luck.

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Report this Post04-13-2006 03:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pokeyfieroClick Here to visit pokeyfiero's HomePageClick Here to Email pokeyfieroSend a Private Message to pokeyfieroDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:

pokey, it sounds like to me you're essentially saying "Yeah, I break the law, but only a little cuz I'm not that big of a business. Besides, I've paid taxes, so I'm entitled."

I'd have to disagree. If you are "running crews" that means you have a staff. If you're a contractor, that means you are a business. Paying any employee cash under the table is tax evasion. Hiring an illegal alien is a second crime.

And yes, they are just that - crimes. Now in your perspective they may just be a blip and not worthy of concern, but others may not see it that way. Kind of like driving 5 over the speed limit is a crime, but you're not really conerned - until you get a ticket that is.

When does helping a friend do a job cross the line and become a contractor being hired to do a job? I'm not sure if there even is a legal line to cross.

I wish you well and hope you recover quickly from your illness. I hope your business practices don't take you afoul of the law, but I realize people break all kinds of laws every day with no consequence. Many aren't worth prosecution. Some are. If you end up on the wrong side of the DA's desk, well, good luck.


One guy,two days a week. Not a crew. Not contracted job. These are not business practices. I am not saying I am entitled I am saying Jazz is noot a better person to be fixating on me. You don't think he breaks laws or anyone else for that matter? I agree with your assement though. The law is the law. Everyone breaks it for different reasons. Honestly I know I am breaking all kinds of laws all the time. Almost everybody does and the reason is easy to understand. The laws were written to solve big problems. Few laws are written to coven small problems. Perspective is everything and nothing depending on who has an issue with it I guess.

Someone honestly show me one company or organazation be it a grocerystore to the boyscouts or even a police station to a church or individules like the president of the United States of America that doesn't do the same. Are they al evil? Are they all wrong? Is anyone able to cast a stone. I don't believe anyone can fit the bill.

What about my own beliefs. Hell I would lke to make a trade program. remove our lazy useless people and trade them for people that want the job. Is that morally wrong? What do you do when laws and morals conflict. when a personal belief in fairness conflicts with laws that sometimes protect peoples right to not have to work and contribute. Where welfare is an alternate sourse of income instead of working. Are laws all correct. I don't see any clear answers to paragraphs of problems that could go on and on and we would still be where we are now.
Personal decisions.

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Report this Post04-13-2006 04:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierobearClick Here to Email fierobearSend a Private Message to fierobearDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:

pokey, it sounds like to me you're essentially saying "Yeah, I break the law, but only a little cuz I'm not that big of a business. Besides, I've paid taxes, so I'm entitled."

I'd have to disagree. If you are "running crews" that means you have a staff. If you're a contractor, that means you are a business. Paying any employee cash under the table is tax evasion. Hiring an illegal alien is a second crime.

And yes, they are just that - crimes. Now in your perspective they may just be a blip and not worthy of concern, but others may not see it that way. Kind of like driving 5 over the speed limit is a crime, but you're not really conerned - until you get a ticket that is.

When does helping a friend do a job cross the line and become a contractor being hired to do a job? I'm not sure if there even is a legal line to cross.

I wish you well and hope you recover quickly from your illness. I hope your business practices don't take you afoul of the law, but I realize people break all kinds of laws every day with no consequence. Many aren't worth prosecution. Some are. If you end up on the wrong side of the DA's desk, well, good luck.

OK, next time I will tell my sick friend (who almost died, the operation he had involved cancer) to go f*** himself, and hire a contractor. Happy now?

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Report this Post04-13-2006 04:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierobear:


OK, next time I will tell my sick friend (who almost died, the operation he had involved cancer) to go f*** himself, and hire a contractor. Happy now?

Settle down, Beavis. The whole argument has become one serious nit to pick. But hiring illegals is well, illegal. And the circumstances don't really mitigate that.

I did say I wasn't sure where the law drew the line between helping a friend out and becoming a business. So why don't you take the corn cob out of your butt.

I hope pokey gets better, and I hope he doesn't get in trouble. He's been very vague in what he's doing - is it a crew? 1 person, 10? 20? some ongoing contracting? Hiring one guy, 2 days a week does seem pretty miniscule as far as the law would be concerned. But I didn't see that mentioned anywhere until just above your rant.

Neither of you have to explain anything. But if you're going to argue based on technicalities and semantics, you have to expect the line to be drawn without much regard for personal circumstances.

Would I do the same thing in your place? Probably. I also routinely speed 5 over. Sometimes more. And I don't biatch if I get a speeding ticket. Would you or pokey complain if either of you got in trouble for hiring illegals for such a small job?

Judging from pokey's reply to my post, I think he got where I was coming from a lot better than you. I wasn't trying to attack him, but merely pointing out the technicalities. I truly wish him well and hope there isn't any legal backlash, but technically, there could be.

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Report this Post04-13-2006 04:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pokeyfieroClick Here to visit pokeyfiero's HomePageClick Here to Email pokeyfieroSend a Private Message to pokeyfieroDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:


Would you or pokey complain if either of you got in trouble for hiring illegals for such a small job?

.

Well I would complain if there wasn't any good places to get lunch near the courthouse.
I also might complain if lunch costed more than my fine.

Also when they make it a law that says I have to verify their paperwork they better provide a way to do that. Laws are sometimes tricky like that.

[This message has been edited by pokeyfiero (edited 04-13-2006).]

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Report this Post04-13-2006 05:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for larryemoryClick Here to Email larryemorySend a Private Message to larryemoryDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by edhering:

Who is saying they pay taxes? **

They may be paying SALES taxes, but they sure as shootin' aren't paying income taxes, FICA, SSI, etc, etc....

And read http://www.jerrypournelle.com/mail/mail408.html#ER2 as there are some very interesting points made, particularly if one scrolls down a bit to the section headed "Subject: Cold Equations In Emergency Medicine ".

Something has got to be done about illegal immigration in this country, and "amnesty" is NOT it.

Ed

EDIT: ** that is to say, I would like to know who it is who has the gall to say that...

Who told you they don't pay taxes? Most of them do in fact pay SS and income taxes. They use phony documantation and work just like anyone else. A VERY few work under the radar for unscrupulous employers who pay in cash. I said a few because you'll eventually get caught. The panalties are not worth it.

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Report this Post04-13-2006 05:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for larryemoryClick Here to Email larryemorySend a Private Message to larryemoryDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by twofatguys:

I dont realy blame the illegals, its the employers that hire them that I blame.

Brad


I donn't mean to be rude but you don't know what you're talkng about. I've put ads in the paper and NO ONE SHOWED UP. Don't give mt this chit about putting hard working Americans out of work. Unfortunately hard working American has become an oxymoron. Americans are spoiled brats. That's the reason everyone else on this planet is eating our lunch. If we don't wake up and get back to work we're going to be a third world country within 20 years. Globalism ia s a term people use when they want to blame anyone but themselves. The American worker is too expensive to hire on the world market. There is too much overhead; Sociaist Security, vacations, health care, union rules, government regulations, to name a few. Overeas employers don't have to put up with this bullchit. Except for France and their economy has been in the toilet since WW II. What is now? Their 30th socialist governent since WW II? The frogs just cannot figure out that socialism does not work. I've always heard that if you find yourself in a hole, the first thing you do is STOP DIGGING. The frogs just don't get it.
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Report this Post04-13-2006 05:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Jake_DragonSend a Private Message to Jake_DragonDirect Link to This Post
Its still illegal I dont care how you put it, and its not just the imagrants that are breaking the law. Dont like it then change the laws. Till then its illegal and both employer and emplyee should be held accountable.

[This message has been edited by Jake_Dragon (edited 04-13-2006).]

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Report this Post04-13-2006 05:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for larryemoryClick Here to Email larryemorySend a Private Message to larryemoryDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:

Whoís the smuck in NC or SC that runs a roofing company that can only find illegal aliens to work for him?

How come he isnít jumping in on this?

Seems like this would be right up his ally.

He canít get anyone to work for him unless they are illegal immigrants. I believe that's what he said wasnít it?

You're damned right I said it. It's true. I put ads in the paper for weeks and NO ONE SHOWED UP. Wake up asswhole. Read my prior posts. Americans are FREQUENTLY spoiled and lazy. And no I said I don't KNOWINGLY hire illegals. They have to show proper documantation. That documention is frequently phoney. So what! It's people like you who whine and complain instead of trying to fix the problem. You're likely one of these people with attitude problems who can't hold a job and blame everyone but themselves.

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Report this Post04-13-2006 05:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pokeyfieroClick Here to visit pokeyfiero's HomePageClick Here to Email pokeyfieroSend a Private Message to pokeyfieroDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Jake_Dragon:

Its still illegal I dont care how you put it, and its not just the imagrants that are breaking the law. Dont like it then change the laws. Till then its illegal and both emplyer and emplyee should be held accountable.

Well damn!

Why didn't you just say so in the first place. Hey everyone all our problems are solved and we can all be happy.
LOL Don't cha wish everything was this easy?


 
quote
Originally posted by larryemory:


I put ads in the paper for weeks and NO ONE SHOWED UP. Wake up asswhole. Read my prior posts. .

I get good response putting up flyers at the laundramat and the local colleges.
Write it in english and spanish.

[This message has been edited by pokeyfiero (edited 04-13-2006).]

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Report this Post04-13-2006 06:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ka4nkfClick Here to Email ka4nkfSend a Private Message to ka4nkfDirect Link to This Post
What I don't understand is some of the employers say they will hire the illegal workers and I don't unstand how they do it. I have been in business and my laws were that I withheld income tax and socical security tax on every employee. So how are some of these so called companies hiring workers that don't have a social security card. They must be paying them in cash and that is not a good business deal because if that money had been paid from a check then the owner could claim exemption from his or hers income tax. so in the long run paying cash would cost the owner more. I don't get it someone is not telling it like it is.
Don
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Report this Post04-13-2006 06:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for blackramsClick Here to Email blackramsSend a Private Message to blackramsDirect Link to This Post
Received this in an email, not that I necessarliy agree with all of it but, I did find it relative and somewhat funny.

MR. PRESIDENT, I'M HEADED TO MEXICO

Dear President Bush:

I'm about to plan a little trip with my family and extended family, and I would like to ask you to assist me. I'm going to walk across the border from the U.S. into Mexico, and I need to make a few arrangements. I know you can help with this. I plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration quotas and laws. I'm sure they handle those things the same way you do here. So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Vicente Fox, that I'm on my way over? Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:

1. Free medical care for my entire family

2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need, whether I use them or not.

3. All government forms need to be printed in English.

4. I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers.

5. Schools need to include classes on American culture and history.

6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the flag pole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower down.

7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and lunch.

8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get easy access to government services.

9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won't make any effort to learn local traffic laws.

10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from Pres. Fox to leave me alone, please be sure that all police officers speak English.

11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my house top, put flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want any complaints or negative comments from the locals.

12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, and don’t enforce any labor laws or tax laws.

13. Please tell all the people in the country to be extremely nice and never say a critical word about me, or about the strain I might place on the economy.

I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all the people who come to the U.S. from Mexico. I am sure that Pres. Fox won't mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely.

However, if he gives you any trouble, just invite him to go quail hunting with your V.P.

Thank you so much for your kind help.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------
Ron
Freedom isn't Free, it's always earned.
My imagination is the only limiting factor to my Fiero. Well, there is that money issue.

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Report this Post04-13-2006 06:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pokeyfieroClick Here to visit pokeyfiero's HomePageClick Here to Email pokeyfieroSend a Private Message to pokeyfieroDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ka4nkf:

What I don't understand is some of the employers say they will hire the illegal workers and I don't unstand how they do it. I have been in business and my laws were that I withheld income tax and socical security tax on every employee. So how are some of these so called companies hiring workers that don't have a social security card. They must be paying them in cash and that is not a good business deal because if that money had been paid from a check then the owner could claim exemption from his or hers income tax. so in the long run paying cash would cost the owner more. I don't get it someone is not telling it like it is.
Don

They have paperwork!! How else can they work!
This is a huge problem. They supply us with paperwork and we need to actually get work done. The market dictates the need. Laws need to be changed and immigration practices need to be revamped. People keep laying on the companys I think because you are simply ignorant of reality.

The only cash issues we have covered is for temperary labor hired privately not by a company. I will add that it is legal when reported.


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Report this Post04-13-2006 07:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for twofatguysClick Here to Email twofatguysSend a Private Message to twofatguysDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by larryemory:

I donn't mean to be rude but you don't know what you're talkng about. I've put ads in the paper and NO ONE SHOWED UP. Don't give mt this chit about putting hard working Americans out of work. Unfortunately hard working American has become an oxymoron. Americans are spoiled brats. That's the reason everyone else on this planet is eating our lunch. If we don't wake up and get back to work we're going to be a third world country within 20 years. Globalism ia s a term people use when they want to blame anyone but themselves. The American worker is too expensive to hire on the world market. There is too much overhead; Sociaist Security, vacations, health care, union rules, government regulations, to name a few. Overeas employers don't have to put up with this bullchit. Except for France and their economy has been in the toilet since WW II. What is now? Their 30th socialist governent since WW II? The frogs just cannot figure out that socialism does not work. I've always heard that if you find yourself in a hole, the first thing you do is STOP DIGGING. The frogs just don't get it.


[reply removed in hopes of not continuing a fight]
O.K. this has managed to piss me off, time to remove myself from the topic.
I'm going to remove all of my previous posts, I think we all need to take a step back and stop slamming each other. And remember, it could be worse, at least it's not illegal Canadian immigrants, how bad would that suk jk trying to lighten the mood.
Brad

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Report this Post04-13-2006 07:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Jake_DragonSend a Private Message to Jake_DragonDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by pokeyfiero:
Well damn!

Why didn't you just say so in the first place. Hey everyone all our problems are solved and we can all be happy.
LOL Don't cha wish everything was this easy?

But why isnít it? We all can read and write to some extent, we have heard that its illegal for our entire lives. Why is it so easy for us to just disregard the law when we cant work it out with in the law? Iím not pointing fingers just asking a question.

We all do what we need to do to feed our families. I donít blame immigrants for doing the same thing. I would probably do exactly the same thing if I was in the same spot. But its still wrong according to the law. But the path of least resistance is not always the right path.
So now we are all in the situation we are in because we have been sleeping, times were good and there were a lot of good paying jobs so we didnít care. Now times are not so good and our government structure cant hold itself up any more. Things have got to change. This isnít the only issue that we have to look at. Foreign oil, stagnant work force, government spending, bloated overhead and not enough new work force to support the aging Americans.
We have to do something or we will see a collapse and all of the cheep labor in the world wont make it any better.
I donít want to close our boarders I just want everyone one that works in the USA to help support our country (Not the government), our way of life. If they didnít come here to do that then they should leave.

[This message has been edited by Jake_Dragon (edited 04-13-2006).]

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Report this Post04-13-2006 09:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JazzManClick Here to Email JazzManSend a Private Message to JazzManDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierobear:


Because...

1. We're only talking a few days work.

2. It's my personal house, not a business project.

3. Pokey is a friend who needs some work, not a contractor.

4. If I take the time to make sure we only get documented workers, it delays my house being finished. I need to finish and put it on the market, because paying two mortgages is a b***h.

Look at it this way. If you asked a friend to help you move all that rock in your back yard, and he said that you need another helper, would you go through the trouble of getting a documented worker, and would you file a 1099 with the IRS for your friend and the laborer for a few days work?


It's obvious that you fully believe and accept that Pokey's subs are illegals, that much is evident from both your words and tone. Nobody made you get a second mortgage, or a first one for that matter, that was your choice and is no justification whatsoever for illegal behavior.

And yes, if I hired a sub I'd let the IRS know and I'd make a diligent attempt to verify identity. Why? It's inconvenient and more expensive, but after all it is the law of the land, and it's ethical.

JazzMan

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Report this Post04-13-2006 09:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cliffwClick Here to Email cliffwSend a Private Message to cliffwDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cliffw:
English should be the national language. The only language taught in schools and spoken in the work place.

 
quote
Originally posted by pokeyfiero:
I get good response putting up flyers at the laundramat and the local colleges.
Write it in english and spanish.

English should be the only language on products in the store.
Look, I have a lot of respect for the work these guys produce. I have humanely given them water and what not when I see them on their walk to a better life. I see them often while on 50,000 acre ranches or whatever when I am on the drilling rig. I admire them trudging amongst the cactus and mesquite brush, usually quite thick, and in the Texas heat. That takes determination. A lot of it. I wonder how many Americans could do that. Being 150 miles from Mexico myself I am quite familiar with them. I have met many. Some of the best, most genuine people you can meet. The most sacrificing kind of people that made America great.
The fact is, it is a problem. A problem for us and a problem for them. Their problem being how life sucks at home. They are usually not educated. Which is why they do the manual labor. They are taking jobs our less educated citizens would get because businesses (even cash paying contractors) can pay less than the going rate. Even if it is minimum wage. They are driving down wages, thus reducing overhead, thus reducing profits taxes would be paid on. Even though they work for cheap, cheap is our standard. Our standard is also "pussified". We expect it easy, even given to us. Part of their problem is corruption in Mexico. There is no middle class per se. Just the rich, then the poor. They are here for the money. I guess I would be too.
A not often mentioned part of our problem is all the money they make does not go into our economy. It goes back home. Fact is, to me at least, is their flying of the Mexican flag means they do not want to be Americans. Did you notice how all the Mexican flags disappeared from the protest rallies and were replaced by American flags ? Not a coincidence. Another part of our problem is there are too many too quick. I am all for immigration but there is a right way. We allow people to come here for education in our higher learning institutions then send them home even though they want to stay. People that can produce at a much better standard.
Look at it this way. The textile industry bit*hes and moans when cheap clothing comes in from abroad. It is regulated. The same with every other import, as it is with other countries we import to. Why is our trade balance usually in deficit ?
Ahhhhh...rant off.
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Report this Post04-13-2006 11:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierobearClick Here to Email fierobearSend a Private Message to fierobearDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan:

It's obvious that you fully believe and accept that Pokey's subs are illegals, that much is evident from both your words and tone. Nobody made you get a second mortgage, or a first one for that matter, that was your choice and is no justification whatsoever for illegal behavior.

And yes, if I hired a sub I'd let the IRS know and I'd make a diligent attempt to verify identity. Why? It's inconvenient and more expensive, but after all it is the law of the land, and it's ethical.

JazzMan

You guys have this confused. When Pokey said he has crews and hires people, he was talking about businesses he has run IN THE PAST. He does some work with his family business, but that is NOT related to the project we are doing in my yard. For the 5th time, I DIDN'T HIRE POKEY'S COMPANY, and the work is not related to either of our businesses. I'm giving him some work while he recovers from surgery. I'm paying a friend some money to help me fix up my house. Get it?

(comment edited out)

[This message has been edited by fierobear (edited 04-13-2006).]

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Report this Post04-13-2006 11:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84BillClick Here to visit 84Bill's HomePageSend a Private Message to 84BillDirect Link to This Post
Thanks bear.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 04-14-2006).]

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Report this Post04-13-2006 11:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierobearClick Here to Email fierobearSend a Private Message to fierobearDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 84Bill:

fierobear, sometimes you can be a real ***hole.

Yeah, that was too mean. Comment edited out.

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Report this Post04-14-2006 01:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for pokeyfieroClick Here to visit pokeyfiero's HomePageClick Here to Email pokeyfieroSend a Private Message to pokeyfieroDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierobear:


You guys have this confused. When Pokey said he has crews and hires people, he was talking about businesses he has run IN THE PAST. He does some work with his family business, but that is NOT related to the project we are doing in my yard. For the 5th time, I DIDN'T HIRE POKEY'S COMPANY, and the work is not related to either of our businesses. I'm giving him some work while he recovers from surgery. I'm paying a friend some money to help me fix up my house. Get it?

(comment edited out)


He can read and understand quite well. He chooses to slant things so he has something to say.

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Report this Post04-14-2006 01:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierobearClick Here to Email fierobearSend a Private Message to fierobearDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by pokeyfiero:

He can read and understand quite well. He chooses to slant things so he has something to say.

To the left, no doubt.

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