I keep hearing how illegals have paid their taxes, worked their due, and deserve some kind of program which for all intents and purposes is an amnesty. Amnesty means that an illegal isn't jailed and/or deported for the crime of trespassing into this country.

My question is: How does an illegal pay taxes? No social security card, no work visa (green card), an employer cannot legally hire someone without at least one of those two documents. I presume that most illegals are paid cash under the table, like one person on the forum says he pays over $12 an hour. That undocumented cash means no social security taxes or income taxes are collected from the worker, no required taxes and fees are collected from the employer (which is why they like illegal workers, it saves them a bundle), no unemployment compensation taxes, no medicare taxes, etc. To get $12/hour into the pocket of a legal American citizen would cost the employer probably over $18/hour after all the taxes, etc, are done. When an employer pays cash under the table he's cheating all of the legal taxpayers/workers out of money because the legal workers end up paying more taxes to make up the shortage. I've heard that on a national level that shortfall is as high as ten billion dollars a year.

So, how do illegals pay taxes and support their community? For the vast majority of them, they don't.

We don't need a guest worker program, we need to prosecute employers who break the law, damaging our national economy and security in the process, and stop providing the lure of easy money to economic refugees from all over the world. A nation without borders cannot exist, and right now we don't have a border to the south.

JazzMan

They use made up or stolen social security numbers IF they bother. Your illegally in another country...why would you pay taxes so you can be found out. All they do is soak up all the welfare monies that should be going to real americans who need it.

Who is saying they pay taxes? **

They may be paying SALES taxes, but they sure as shootin' aren't paying income taxes, FICA, SSI, etc, etc....

And read http://www.jerrypournelle.com/mail/mail408.html#ER2 as there are some very interesting points made, particularly if one scrolls down a bit to the section headed "Subject: Cold Equations In Emergency Medicine ".

Something has got to be done about illegal immigration in this country, and "amnesty" is NOT it.

Ed

EDIT: ** that is to say, I would like to know who it is who has the gall to say that...

[This message has been edited by edhering (edited 04-10-2006).]

But think of all the potential voters if citizenship is obtained!!!!!!!!!!!

quote Originally posted by DanFiero: But think of all the potential voters if citizenship is obtained!!!!!!!!!!!

Also think of all the extra coin in the catholic coffers if illegals are given anmesty.

As a whole illegals spent tons more in hand outs then they put in. The taxes they pay are no where near enough for the nearly 12 million that are here and getting free health care, education and welfare.

Those that hire undocumented aliens need to be procecuted, fined and spend some time with F-I-E-R-O.

Those supporting the illegal aliens keep on harping that they are 11 million hard working taxpaying workers, which is BS. What part of ILLEGAL ALIEN don't they understand?

The people we hire need to provide a social security card and a green card. There is no way for us to check if these are fake because they are identical to the real articles. The only way we find out is when the social security administration sends us a letter questioning the identity of some of these people. We ask them to get legitimate papers if they want to continue to work with us, most just move on.
They are paying into social security and federal and state taxes because these get deducted from their paychecks, like we every employee who works here. From what I uderstand, the social security money ends up in a special account no one can access. Last I hear there were Trillions of dollars in there, but no one can claim it because bogus social security numbers were used, so this money is in some legal limbo.

I know quite a few people who are in this country illegally. All of them have driver’s licenses and social security cards they purchased. They pay their taxes, they put in on social security, and they are volunteers in the community. They are all trying to become legal citizens, but they realize it may never happen. The sad part is most of them are more involved in the community and cause less trouble then the people that are U.S. citizens.

[This message has been edited by twofatguys (edited 04-13-2006).]

If they are being paid under the table, the employer is the scammer.

I suspect the majority are paying into the system as noted above using fake cards, so the money is fed to the feds, but they can't get the benefits from paying it.

Labor Ready and the like take all the required taxes out of the pay before the worker gets their check, if a farm is hiring these people, it is their requirement to do the same. If they aren't, it's the employer who should be jailed... but that isn't going to happen now is it? Usually you'll find the raids on undocumented farm workers happen right after harvest... imagine that. They get a free ride home.

[This message has been edited by twofatguys (edited 04-13-2006).]

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: We don't need a guest worker program, we need to prosecute employers who break the law, damaging our national economy and security in the process, and stop providing the lure of easy money to economic refugees from all over the world. A nation without borders cannot exist, and right now we don't have a border to the south. JazzMan

Exactly, if they would work just as hard getting a work permit as they do at these "cheap" jobs then there wouldn’t be a problem. Why cant the employers sponsor them? Turning a blind eye to the issue is not going to make it go away, saying you didn’t know should not let you off the hook. I'm sorry if this includes some of you but come on its like buying stolen property. Its still breaking the law.

quote Originally posted by edhering: Who is saying they pay taxes? **

THANK YOU!

THIS is why we need a national GST instead of an income tax...among other reasons. You can't avoid paying your taxes at the cash register.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: THIS is why we need a national GST instead of an income tax...among other reasons. You can't avoid paying your taxes at the cash register.

Quite please, we don’t want talk like that catching on.
I pay my account good money to save me money on my taxes.

Twofatguys:
It seems like you get a whole different group of immigrants then we get in our area.
So we get the good immigrants, but the white trash Americans seem to flock to Florida.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: THANK YOU! THIS is why we need a national GST instead of an income tax...among other reasons. You can't avoid paying your taxes at the cash register.

Ive been all for this for 25 years. no way for anyone, rich or poor to cheat. And you pay the same rate as everyone else...spend more money pay more tax. Simple as they come, but politicians cant think reasonably ya know..........

What gets me are some of these demonstrations. One illegal was quoted as saying on CNN, "We're not criminals, we're Americans." Um, dumbfark, you ARE a criminial and you are most definitely NOT an American if you're an ILLEGAL ALIEN. How hard is that to understand?

I've got no problems with legal immigrants. This country was founded by immigrants. Work programs are a good idea. Let the employers who need them sponser them. But amnesty or turning a blind eye to the problem is NOT the answer.

Thats what the indians needed... better control over immigration.

I have the answer to the Immigrant problem.
Everyone can stay, nobody has to move. It's simple.
WE ANNEX MEXICO
We did it to Hawaii and everything worked out fine. By annexing Mexico we will not only gain thousands of square miles of land but we will lower our border further south and we will acquire prime beachfront properties. and once the currency is converted to American dollars, think how much land we rich North Americans ( who won't do low paying jobs illegal immigrants now do ) can afford, we can all have vacation homes in sunny Mexico ( i.e.the southern U.S.A.)
Don

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: Thats what the indians needed... better control over immigration.

And if we don't have better immigration control today, in the future we'll be talking about immigration reform with the indians while we'll all on the reservations. Welcome to the United States of Mexico. And if you think I'm paranoid, you need to realize most Mexicans still consider the area of the Mexican Cession to be rightfully part of Mexico. (that's the land that Mexico lost in the Mexican-American was)

Jazzman. I totally agree with you on this subject. I think the employers of illegal immigrants should be going to jail for a few years. Then what's up with the catholic church? Would their attitude be the same if we had a southern border with a muslim country? I think not.

by all the demonstrations i was starting to feel like i had the minority view. its good to see that i'm not alone. along with what has already been mentioned i have a few more comments.

first it really urks me that these protestors are waiving American flags. to me the flag is a sign of true patriotism. they get to enjoy the freedoms of the US but will never have defend our country (even voluntarily if they wanted to).

secondly i believe that by having loose borders and employing illegal workers we are really doing more harm to the country of Mexico. if they did not have an option to turn to maybe they would have a little revolution or at least some political change. when we supply people with an easy alternative we are harming them. this has been going on for decades and hasn't helped the US or Mexico. just my 2 cents..

Send them all back, period.

They are here illegally. Maybe then we can get the wages in this country at a living wage. Something people don’t have to work 2 or 3 jobs just to pay the rent.

Why was it alright to steal this country from the Indians in the first place? (my forefathers)

This was their country and we stole it from them. Now the Mexicans are trying to do the same thing to us.

If we allow amnesty to happen we are going to keep the flow of illegal aliens coming in because they don’t feel that it’s breaking the law and never will.

------------------
technology is great when it works
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

Here's an example of jobs American workers got turned away from once "the Mexicans had arrived."

http://washingtontimes.com/national/20060410-123506-1297r.htm

"An Alabama employment agency that sent 70 laborers and construction workers to job sites in that state in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina says the men were sent home after just two weeks on the job by employers who told them "the Mexicans had arrived" and were willing to work for less. "

"After Katrina, our company had 70 workers on the job the first day, but the companies decided they didn't need them anymore because the Mexicans had arrived," Mrs. Swope said. "I assure you it is not true that Americans don't want to work.
"We had been told that 270 jobs might be available, and we could have filled every one of them with men from this area, most of whom lost their jobs because of the hurricane," she said. "When we told the guys they would not be needed, they actually cried ... and we cried with them. This is a shame."
Mrs. Swope said employment agencies throughout Alabama, Louisiana and Mississippi faced similar problems, when thousands of men from Mexico and several Central and South American countries -- many in crowded buses and trucks -- came into the three states after Katrina, looking for employment and willing to work for less money.
The number of foreign workers who flooded the area after the hurricane has been estimated at more than 30,000. Many of them have been identified by law-enforcement authorities and others as illegal aliens.

" "The men we sent to jobs in Alabama were local fellows looking for work, men who needed jobs," Mrs. Swope said. "After driving 50 miles to the work sites where they had been promised $10 an hour, they discovered the employers had found substitutes who were willing to work for less." "

$10 an hour for construction work, removing toxic waste, etc. And Americans lined up for the jobs, but turned away so illegals could be given the jobs for less. It's not like we're talking even prevailing construction wages.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 04-10-2006).]

it gets worse
not only do they depress wages
they depress whole comunitys
by exporting most of the money they earn back to mexico or where ever they are from
there is very little multiplyer effect to their wages
as most of it is sent out of the city county and state econ
back home

that is why miami is now the poorest major american city
40 years of unchecked imigration both legal and illegal
has been a disaster with no end in sight

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Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: I presume that most illegals are paid cash under the table, like one person on the forum says he pays over $12 an hour. That undocumented cash means no social security taxes or income taxes are collected from the worker, no required taxes and fees are collected from the employer (which is why they like illegal workers, it saves them a bundle), no unemployment compensation taxes, no medicare taxes, etc. To get $12/hour into the pocket of a legal American citizen would cost the employer probably over $18/hour after all the taxes, etc, are done. When an employer pays cash under the table he's cheating all of the legal taxpayers/workers out of money because the legal workers end up paying more taxes to make up the shortage. I've heard that on a national level that shortfall is as high as ten billion dollars a year.JazzMan

Assuming you are talking about me, I have to point out that this isn't a business - the work is being done on my house, and a friend (pokey) is running the job. It is perfectly legal to do work on your own house, and pay someone to help you.

[This message has been edited by fierobear (edited 04-11-2006).]

Who’s the smuck in NC or SC that runs a roofing company that can only find illegal aliens to work for him?

How come he isn’t jumping in on this?

Seems like this would be right up his ally.

He can’t get anyone to work for him unless they are illegal immigrants. I believe that's what he said wasn’t it?

------------------
technology is great when it works
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

Actually they are not the ones who depress wages. To get to the root one need not look any further than the employer / company. Remember it's all about greed. More more more more gotta makie more money, gotta give away less. Illegals can be had for less than minimum wage which means employers and companies can afford that new car, big mansion and a fat wallet.

quote Originally posted by ray b: it gets worse not only do they depress wages they depress whole comunitys

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: Who’s the smuck in NC or SC that runs a roofing company that can only find illegal aliens to work for him?

That would be larry
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/038118-3.html

quote Originally posted by Toddster: THANK YOU! THIS is why we need a national GST instead of an income tax...among other reasons. You can't avoid paying your taxes at the cash register.

A GST is inherently unfair to lower income people because of the simple fact that poor people spend a whole lot larger percentage of their income on required needs than the wealthy. Think about it, how many toasters and food doessomeone making a million a year buy? Someone making $10/hour is likely spending nearly 100% of their income staying alive, whereas much wealthier people can hide money away in investments and not pay a penny of GST on that.

What confuses me is that a certain segment of the population as exemplified by the above comment just doesn't get the fact that the people at the lower end of the economic ladder just don't have the physical ability to cover government spending no matter how you tax them. Even if you took 100% of all their income, stripped them of all their assets, and mortgaged their children's future it still wouldn't be enough to keep the government running. The money has to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is where the money is, at the top. It's a math problem, it's that simple.

JazzMan

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: A GST is inherently unfair to lower income people because of the simple fact that poor people spend a whole lot larger percentage of their income on required needs than the wealthy. Think about it, how many toasters and food doessomeone making a million a year buy? Someone making $10/hour is likely spending nearly 100% of their income staying alive, whereas much wealthier people can hide money away in investments and not pay a penny of GST on that. What confuses me is that a certain segment of the population as exemplified by the above comment just doesn't get the fact that the people at the lower end of the economic ladder just don't have the physical ability to cover government spending no matter how you tax them. Even if you took 100% of all their income, stripped them of all their assets, and mortgaged their children's future it still wouldn't be enough to keep the government running. The money has to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is where the money is, at the top. It's a math problem, it's that simple. JazzMan

How many mansions do poor people buy?

This is flawed logic Jazz. In the first place, the GST doesn't apply to things like medicines and food. Staples of life have never been subject to tax nor would they be under a GST. You are also forgetting that low income earners will keep every penny they earn. And wealthy people, who buy more luxury items, will keep the burden of paying full tax where they currently get away with paying next to nothing by forming S-Corps and paying themselves a minor salary out of their real earnings.

It would be easier to manage and it has proved successful in other countries where it exists like New Zealand.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: It wasn't you, but since you mention it, if you knowingly participate in hiring and paying an illegal worker then you would be, at the least, complicit in the crime. If you're paying Pokey as a general contractor and he is subbing the work out to illegals as subcontractors then he's definitely in violation of state and federal laws, and there may be civil liability back to you.

Perhaps, IF I were paying him as a general contractor. I'm not. I'm paying a friend to help me clean the yard and build some stuff. He found us a laborer to help us. I don't know if the helper is an American citizen, but he has a Social Security card.

quote But that still begs the question why you think it's better to not pay an American citizen for a good-paying job that isn't all that nasty, dirty, or hard to do. Last I looked, construction jobs are good jobs, not like cleaning out grease traps for minimum wage. JazzMan

If he were doing mostly construction, then yes, I'd probably hire a documented American citizen. The helper mostly digs ditches for drainage, holes for piers, and carrys the sacks of cement and lumber down the hill, not to mention helping us load moving boxes in my trailer. We're talking about $2-3,000 worth of work.

Oh, speaking of hiring legitmate contractors, I did hire a licensed contractor to do the addition and remodling on my new house. I also hired painting, cabinet, and paving contractors, all established businesses with insurance and workers comp certificates (we checked). That's good for about $100,000 to legitimate businesses. Is that good enough for you?

[This message has been edited by fierobear (edited 04-11-2006).]

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: It wasn't you, but since you mention it, if you knowingly participate in hiring and paying an illegal worker then you would be, at the least, complicit in the crime. If you're paying Pokey as a general contractor and he is subbing the work out to illegals as subcontractors then he's definitely in violation of state and federal laws, and there may be civil liability back to you. But that still begs the question why you think it's better to not pay an American citizen for a good-paying job that isn't all that nasty, dirty, or hard to do. Last I looked, construction jobs are good jobs, not like cleaning out grease traps for minimum wage. JazzMan

As a matter of fact I am not hiring him as a contractor. I'm just helping a friend remodel his home so he can sell it and I am doing it at about cost. The worker in question does happen to have papers(legal or not) and I certainly won't stop him from filing his taxes.

Where are all these white workers looking for work at Jazz? They sure as hell are not around here. Have you any idea what your talking about when it comes to our local economy or are you generalizing?
There are no white workers here that are looking for work. There are no white workers working at MC Donald's or Jack in box. None drive taxis or work at car washes.Once in a while I see a carpenter or two on a job site and our local unions are choke full of yep you guessed it Jazz Mexicans!!! They work Jazz and that is the bottom line about this area. White people are to good to work these jobs. No Jazz they don't get paid less they paid the same but get twice as much done.They don't get a cut or a bruise and cry and take the rest of the day off and the next and take up hospitals time with bullshlt ailments increasing our health care costs. It is called work ethic not as you put as slave labor.

You guys all have points and I don't disagree with the law aspect of any of it but the truth is Americans are hiding behind the real facts. We have become lazy and want more than we are worth.

All of these aliens with fake socials do pay taxes also state and federal and they have no way of recouping any of it so it is in essence free money for our coffer. Avenge stated he thought it was in the trillions but I don't really have a clue. I do have a hard time believing that our politicians have left it untouched in limbo please!! Trillions of dollars and the interest on that money all this time would rival the national debt. We better get that money.

One thing I can't agree on is this if it is illegal thats the end of story kik em out attitude. Have you thought about the ramifications of that action even if it could be done. Entire markets would collapse and guess who would be ready to pick up the pieces. If we couldn't afford to farm anymore because wages got to high(like a lot of other industries have) southern nations would. So yet another industry lost.
Do you think it would stop there. No way my friends. You would not be able to afford milk or beef anymore if it were made here in the USA.
Refuse disposal would go through the roof. What would we do with Los Angeles? Body shops would charge more than new cars.Forget about getting your roof replaced or any concrete work done. Hell not many Americans can push a wheelbarrow full of concrete much less all day. Even steel recycling would be effected. Who would can the food? Bathrooms across America would be rendered useless and the filth would pile high because we won't clean it up. If you say white people will do that work the I say you are full of it. If they did the job would cease to exist because it would be viable.

Anymore Americans think they deserve a great wage just because. Sorry you need to get an education or learn a trade and actually be worth something to get paid better money. Still that doesn't guarantee a job you also have to want to work.

If we were smart and it is obvious we are not we would control this situation by stream lining the work visa policy's.

The problem exists for a reason. It isn't made up. No one designed it this way just to piss you ranters off. Immigrants are like water. They fill the holes. We made the holes now we should fix the problem. Work permits should be granted to workers that have sponsors and the goal should be citizenship not just make a buck and split.

We also need to do something about our own working class and this is more important. Even our poorest have it better than normal working class Americans did 50 years ago. We have more opportunity than ever. We need to inspire them to want to achieve it. America has never been a promise of an easy life it is a promise at the opportunity to fight for a better one. Take a look at our military lately? Seems the lower classes our more inclined to fight for their beliefs also.
It seems foreigners understand that better than we do.

I am still going to hire the hardest working people I can find as I should (that includes whites if you can find them) and I will pay them well for their work but I will not hire for affirmative action. I am not responsible for our lack of work ethic.

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PLAY HARD-DIE FAST
"The government consists of a gang of men exactly like you and me. They have, taking one with another, no special talent for the business of government; they have only a talent for getting and holding office. Their principal device to that end is to search out groups who pant and pine for something they can't get and to promise to give it to them. Nine times out of ten, that promise is worth nothing. The tenth time is made good by looting A to satisfy B. In other words, government is a broker in pillage, and every election is sort of an advance auction sale of stolen goods."
-- H. L. Mencken

Desperate people do desperate things.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: They work Jazz and that is the bottom line about this area.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Desperate people do desperate things.

Oh so working is an act of desperation. I should rest my case on that one.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: Oh so working is an act of desperation. I should rest my case on that one.

Man, ain't THAT the truth. I get so sick of hearing liberals talk about certain work being beneath them I could scream. There are a lot of millionaires who started out flipping burgers. I'll be a millionaire in a few years and I started out pumping gas. And if I really needed the work, I go BACK to pumping gas.

Unless you know something I don't, Food, clothing and shelter arent free. Therefor, it is necessary to "work" in order to afford thes basic necessities. Necessities that if not satisfied within a few weeks would mean death. Now granted one could rummage through a trashcan for ones meal but for most people in modern America this is not an option. So. Yes, if desperate enough one will literally work for peanuts.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: Oh so working is an act of desperation. I should rest my case on that one.

Pokey. If you had a draft horse carry your product to market every day and fed and cared for it less and less, eventually it will stop working. You can beat that horse all day long and eventually it will collapse to the ground dead. So perhaps you feed and care for it juuuuuust enough each day to keep it from dieing on you. Sure it's alittle thin, maybe gotta beat it with the whip a tad more but hey... your crap is getting to market and that all that matters.. isn't that right? Lowball the competition so they have no choice but to do the same or go out of business? Business owners have been lowballing eachother for decades and now they are at the bottom of the barrel. Super cheap labor minimizing outgo while maximizing profits. Great for you, bad for everyone except the most desperate among us... the 3rd world poor who will do anything to leave the 3rd world behind.

[This message has been edited by twofatguys (edited 04-13-2006).]

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Unless you know something I don't, Food, clothing and shelter arent free. Therefor, it is necessary to "work" in order to afford thes basic necessities. Necessities that if not satisfied within a few weeks would mean death. Now granted one could rummage through a trashcan for ones meal but for most people in modern America this is not an option. So. Yes, if desperate enough one will literally work for peanuts. Pokey. If you had a draft horse carry your product to market every day and fed and cared for it less and less, eventually it will stop working. You can beat that horse all day long and eventually it will collapse to the ground dead. So perhaps you feed and care for it juuuuuust enough each day to keep it from dieing on you. Sure it's alittle thin, maybe gotta beat it with the whip a tad more but hey... your crap is getting to market and that all that matters.. isn't that right? Lowball the competition so they have no choice but to do the same or go out of business? Business owners have been lowballing eachother for decades and now they are at the bottom of the barrel. Super cheap labor minimizing outgo while maximizing profits. Great for you, bad for everyone except the most desperate among us... the 3rd world poor who will do anything to leave the 3rd world behind.

Bill I have thought you to be one of two things.
Completely lost and unable to understand concepts that don't fit snuggly in with your mental issues or very intelligent and just purposely looking for opportunity to argue. I have alway leaned toward the latter.

Now after reading your post and previous PMs I am beginning to think you are not even reading the same topics. I think in your own mind you are changing whatever others say and substituting it with something of your own creation. Then once you have it in your mind your way you cry your personal rage against the world. Good luck with that. Maybe if you concentrate real hard the world will actually conform to you. Try it. You don't seem to have anything to lose.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: Try it. You don't seem to have anything to lose.

Mih.. maybe I will. Seems to work fairly well for you.
Thanks for the tip..

BTW Is it yours?