quote Classic Car Lovers Dismayed by New Law Mon Sep 27,10:48 AM ET SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Lovers of California's classic cars, celebrated in the Beach Boys song for "fun, fun, fun," worried that a new state law could take their T-birds and little deuce coupes away. Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger (news - web sites) has signed a bill requiring that cars 30 years and older be tested under California's strict smog regulations, closing a loophole over the protests of classic car collectors, including "Tonight Show" host Jay Leno. Aides said the bill signed on Thursday would help the state's air quality. California also approved the nation's most stringent rules to reduce auto emissions linked to global warming this week. But classic car hobbyists argued their cars have little effect on the state's smog. "We're not too excited about it. The impact on the environment by classic cars is minimal," said John Halstead, president of the Bakersfield Camaro Club. "Most of the cars don't make it out of the garage for any other reason than for car shows once or twice a month in the summer." The exact number of classic cars in California is unknown, but the state has hundreds of clubs for car hobbyists. Leno, on whose show Schwarzenegger announced he would run for governor, protested personally against the bill, said Marva Diaz, legislative director for Assembly Member Sally Lieber, who wrote the bill. Leno called Lieber's office twice to register his displeasure, Diaz said. "He was very upset the first time," Diaz said. "He thought his whole collection would have to be smog-checked." "The second time he called he was upset because he had been told the assemblywomen had said on the radio that he supported the bill," Diaz said. "He wanted to make sure it was clear to me to tell her that he remained opposed."

Janell

phock california and their smog

boooo! down with arnold! lol

Guess there is gong to be a surplus of classic cars for sale soon.

I'll be thinking of them as I drive my EPA exempt car around to the car shows.

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Happiness isn't around the corner...
Happiness IS the corner.

That sucks...glad I'm not in California. How do you get an original 60's muscle car to pass emissions when they don't have any smog control devices.

simple - you drain the tank and put a few gallons of ethonal in

the car will run leam unless you increase the size of your carb jets

only emissions are carbon dioxide and water (steam)

and if you really are only running the car a few miles / year, whats the big deal, ethonal costs about $3 a gallon.

quote Originally posted by Oreif: Guess there is gong to be a surplus of classic cars for sale soon. I'll be thinking of them as I drive my EPA exempt car around to the car shows.

Don't count your chickens yet, orief. When the dumbass enviro-whackos come up with this stuff here, other states eventually pick it up.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: I never thought I'd consider leaving this state, but I'm giving it some serious thought now. I'm getting sick of the environmental extremeism and other ultra-liberal bulls**t politics around here.

But isn't Arnie a Con?

At that point, I would just start breaking the law. I mean, they (the smog nazis) are threatening our way of life and your choice of what car you own.

My theory is, if the emmissions are on par with or better then factory mandated, who cares what kind of engine, transmission, fuel type, NA/boost or any of that other crap they pull out in Cali, it shouldn't matter.

I mean, cali is great except for:
Earthquakes
Power outages
Pollution
Politicians
Riots
Floods
Fires
Landslides
Car chases
Immigrants.... the list goes on.
But the weather's nice

All those who have been nursing those cars that will turn 30 next year will no longer cruise under the radar of smog testing. Your days are numbered and you will have to test. I agree tha there may be a stream of CA cars hitting eBay as owners seek to get some cash from cars that are not worth smogging. So who is ready to adopt that very special group of gutless, ugly cars that will be mandated to drive elsewhere every year starting with the 1976 models. I can't think of many vehicles that I cared to own from that period other than maybe a Chevy truck or a Ford Bronco and those have limited appeal. Sure, there may be an occasional gem found in the mid 70's, but for the most part, those are the fugliest cars ever produced. This law does NOT affect cars earlier than 1976as they are exempted with the exception of those cars that have had engine modifications such as fuel system and exhaust system changes. That goes for cars with non-stock engine swaps as well.

Something that will probably have a more significant impact is that California's law is designed to drive emissions down on new vehicles, setting new, stricter standards, much lower than the Federal ones for cars and light trucks that have to be met by 2009 (cleaner technology) and 2016 (exhaust standards).

Now as someone who grew up in California, it is way past time they put the squeeze on those who rubber band and duct tape together cars that are fuel and smog hogs. Why should people be exempt from smogging their junkers because the car is "old"? The law just makes those cars turning 30 next year take the test. If they pass, they get tags, if they don't, they ought to be retired. People that are whining because they now have to contribute to the fixing the states fiscal woes and drive responsibly are being disengenuous. Arnold, the Republican said he would improve the air quality in the state 50% by 2010. So this bill, written by a Democrat, has been embraced by Gov. Schwarzenegger, because it fits with his stated goals. Isn't this bill an example of the America we all want to live in. One where the left and right work together to make our communties a better place to live? In this case, no one loses, if you want to remain under the smog radar, you just have to sell your 1978 Bonneville (if it didn't pass smog) and get something a few years older which doesn't have to test. Hell, do your self a favor and get something before 1973 when horsepower was stock and smog pumps were the exception, not the norm.

[This message has been edited by Wudman (edited 09-28-2004).]

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Don't count your chickens yet, orief. When the dumbass enviro-whackos come up with this stuff here, other states eventually pick it up.

Not really, By the time it gets here, We'll all be doing fuel-cell style engines (or converting our present engines to a fuel-cell style.)
If worse comes to worse, I'll mod it for propane, no emission testing required.

Move to the boonies, like the famous movie line, "we don't need no stinking smog checks" around these here parts of Southern Illinois.

quote Originally posted by Wudman: Classic hotrods and cars from 1974 and earlier are exempt from the new law.

You mis-understand the law. Right now if the car is 30 years or over it doesn't need to have emission testing. The new bill (if it makes it into a law) will require ALL vehicles to be smog tested. So Leno's prized 1956 Buick would need to be smog tested and if it failed, It would need to be converted/modifed to pass.
Many street and hot rods would be required to comply as well.

quote Originally posted by Fierobsessed: Immigrants.... the list goes on. But the weather's nice

I'll remember that, in the middle of winter, when you are up to your ass in snow, and I'm driving around my Fiero with the sunroof off. Heh heh.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Don't count your chickens yet, orief. When the dumbass enviro-whackos come up with this stuff here, other states eventually pick it up.

That might have used to have been the case... then Florida came out a few years ago and dropped emissions testing. Prior to that, they were running a close second to CA for having the stupidest emissions laws.

And anyone who thinks that cars are the problem out here needs to wake up and smell the smog. Cars are a very minimal part of the problem with the air here... And air quality is an even smaller percentage of the reason they are trying to do this... It's called MONEY, folks. If California emissions testing was about air quality, you would drive in there, stick a sensor in your tailpipe and either pass or fail. All this BS about visual inspections and crazy rules on engine swaps is nothing more than a way to make you pay more to get your car passed and make you buy a lot of parts... Anyone who thinks there should be any restriction on putting a 95 model engine in an 85 model car is not even thinking straight...

Bear... We'll be back in GA within a few years.. Come on down.. And until then, I'll still be carrying my TN driver's license and plates. Even though my ole 46 truck still won't have to pass...

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Fiero-Performance.com
2nd Annual California Coast Run

quote Originally posted by Oreif: Not really, By the time it gets here, We'll all be doing fuel-cell style engines (or converting our present engines to a fuel-cell style.) If worse comes to worse, I'll mod it for propane, no emission testing required.

Hey, I hope you never have to deal with this crap. Keep fighting them in Illinois, because we're losing the battle out here.

ii wonder if arnold still drives a hummvee? what's the mileage, 8-10 mpg?

quote Originally posted by fierobear: I never thought I'd consider leaving this state, but I'm giving it some serious thought now. I'm getting sick of the environmental extremeism and other ultra-liberal bulls**t politics around here.

Yep, classic republican tactic, blame liberals for this even though Arnold is a republican. I'm surprised 9-11 hasn't been blamed for this also.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Actually, the law that just passed removes the 30 year rolling exemption, stopping at 1976. It used to be that, once a car was 30+ years old, it was smog exempt. Now, all cars after 1976 will have to be smogged, no matter how old they get. That means that Fieros will never be smog exempt. 1957 Chevys are exempt. Of course, there is another law being proposed that ALL cars, regardless of year, will have to pass emissions testing. That means that a 57 Chevy would not only have to pass, you'd have to ADD smog equipment to it. Yet another reason to move from this idiotic state.

I feel for the owners of Model T. Fords.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: I never thought I'd consider leaving this state, but I'm giving it some serious thought now. I'm getting sick of the environmental extremeism and other ultra-liberal bulls**t politics around here.

Don't let the door hit where the good lord split ya.

It was republican arnold that signed it wasn't it?

SEMA keeps track of and fights against these type of laws.
To see what laws have come and what is proposed see:
http://www.enjoythedrive.com/content/?ID=7984

See .. thats just stupid, I dont mind the smog checks in MD. If you fail , And you spend more that $400 replacing parts or trying to rectify the situation , and have reciepts showing so, your exempt, cars over 20 years old with historic plates are smog check exempt , but have a yearly mileage limit on them of so many thousand miles, which isnt really enforced as long as your not blatently disobeying the law. I like MD. i'll stay :P Silly californians , the smogs getting to your heads !

quote Originally posted by Mastermind: Yep, classic republican tactic, blame liberals for this even though Arnold is a republican. I'm surprised 9-11 hasn't been blamed for this also.

Arnold is a middle of the road Republican. One of his goals is to cut emissions in California. A Democrat introduced the legislation, and it fit his goal. If you lived here, you'd know the details and throwing insults doesn't help you.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Arnold is a middle of the road Republican. One of his goals is to cut emissions in California. A Democrat introduced the legislation, and it fit his goal. If you lived here, you'd know the details and throwing insults doesn't help you.

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you by stating the truth.

quote Originally posted by Mastermind: Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you by stating the truth.

The truth wasn't the problem, it was your irrelevencies.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Arnold is a middle of the road Republican. One of his goals is to cut emissions in California. A Democrat introduced the legislation, and it fit his goal. If you lived here, you'd know the details and throwing insults doesn't help you.

It was a Republican (Nixon!) who gave us the EPA, too. Nixon and Ford were in the "country-club" wing of the GOP--fiscally conservative to a point, socially liberal to a point, and totally anti-communist.

As for CARB, I have to wonder what their regs say about diesel trucks. Anyone who's seen a semi tractor emit huge gouts of sooty smoke can understand that, these days, cars are kind of at the bottom end of the emissions scale. Newer semi tractors are a lot cleaner but I don't recall hearing anything about pollution limits placed on them.

I can just imagine Jay Leno smogging one of his Dusenbergs. Yeah.

Ed

quote Originally posted by Oreif: You mis-understand the law. Right now if the car is 30 years or over it doesn't need to have emission testing. The new bill (if it makes it into a law) will require ALL vehicles to be smog tested. So Leno's prized 1956 Buick would need to be smog tested and if it failed, It would need to be converted/modifed to pass. Many street and hot rods would be required to comply as well.

Just so I understand, please clarify.
At present, vehicles 30 years or older are not required to have emission tests. Meaning smog tests ? Exhaust emissions do contribute to smog but in themselves are not actually smog. Which standard would Leno's 1956 Buick be subject to. California has raised it's clean air standards many times. Is California trying to make everyone with a pre-90's vehicle make their vehicles perform as emissionally efficient as a 2000+ model ?
A related curiosity. Question for Californians. I understand the sense it makes to allow state/city/government vehicles to slide on registration and tag fees, but do they have to pass inspections and emission tests?

You know it is erie. Ten years ago my Dad told me (wanted me to sign a petition) that "BIG BROTHER" was trying to pass laws to outlaw older vehicles. He had told me it was in support of "BIG AUTO". Where will it stop? Where do you put an EGR valve on a "Model T" ? Are we to add another taillight? Seat and shoulder belts? Air bags?

Rediculous !!!!!!!!!!!!!

quote Originally posted by edhering: It was a Republican (Nixon!) who gave us the EPA, too.

Proof how the best of intentions can go awry, and that noone is perfect.

quote As for CARB, I have to wonder what their regs say about diesel trucks. Anyone who's seen a semi tractor emit huge gouts of sooty smoke can understand that, these days, cars are kind of at the bottom end of the emissions scale. Newer semi tractors are a lot cleaner but I don't recall hearing anything about pollution limits placed on them.

They're going after diesel, too.

[This message has been edited by fierobear (edited 09-28-2004).]

quote Originally posted by fierobear: The truth wasn't the problem, it was your irrelevencies.

What a coincidence, I also found your inclusion of liberals irrelevant due to the bill becoming law by the hand/signing of republican Arnold S.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: Just so I understand, please clarify. At present, vehicles 30 years or older are not required to have emission tests. Meaning smog tests ?

Yes. The law changes that, so that the rolling exemption stops at 1976. Now, all vehicles from 1976 and newer will always have to get a smog check every 2 years.

quote Exhaust emissions do contribute to smog but in themselves are not actually smog. Which standard would Leno's 1956 Buick be subject to. California has raised it's clean air standards many times. Is California trying to make everyone with a pre-90's vehicle make their vehicles perform as emissionally efficient as a 2000+ model ?

If the other law passes, they'd have a standard for a 56 Buick. If you exceed that standard, you fix the car or can't drive it.

quote A related curiosity. Question for Californians. I understand the sense it makes to allow state/city/government vehicles to slide on registration and tag fees, but do they have to pass inspections and emission tests?

That's a great question. I don't know. I'll have to check into that. I do know that some state vechicles have "exempt" on their plates. Exempt from yearly registration, and presumably, smog checks.

quote You know it is erie. Ten years ago my Dad told me (wanted me to sign a petition) that "BIG BROTHER" was trying to pass laws to outlaw older vehicles. He had told me it was in support of "BIG AUTO". Where will it stop? Where do you put an EGR valve on a "Model T" ? Are we to add another taillight? Seat and shoulder belts? Air bags?

One problem is, some of the legislators that propose these laws are not engineers or scientists. They do it because it seems like a good idea, but they have no clue how mechanically or scientifically untenable it is.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: It was authored by a liberal Democrat from the San Jose area. I know about her policies. You see, I live here. You don't. I know the facts, you're guessing.

Another coincidence, because her policies are irrelevant without the republican govenor agreeing by signing the bill making it law. Correct?

Again, much to do about nothing but a chance at drawing a breath that you can't see. Next year only one year of cars will be added to the "need to be smogged" list. Those made in 1976 will have to measure up, ship out or get junked. I don't see a big deal with that. Leno's true hot rods will not be affected, neither will Billy Bob's '73 Pinto running on three cylinders.

As far as swapping engines on later model cars, do you suggest that those cars should be exempt from similar models with the stock engine? If not, which standard should those cars have to meet? There are CARB legal parts to modify some engines for performance, but most people in don't even begin to think about restoring the smog systems when they swap a motor out. Just like the old days, if we could gut the smog stuff, we did. Eventually the laws made it expensive and harder for us to do so. Now if you want to modify your pre 1976 car, more power to you, but messing with your Fiero in California will be the smog pain it has always been.

Blame it on some new crossbreed definition of an enviro-"whacko", this one being a very popular REPUBLICAN having the last work on what is going to be law in California. Darn, who can you trust these days to free you from the oppression of the government. This one will get even funnier when those laws will affect other states faster than you think. Maybe Florida can afford to roll back smog laws because the prevailing breezes dump the bad air into the unpopulated areas of either the Gulf or the Atlantic. Other states that want to pass EPA emissions so as to keep what few Federal dollars coming, may see some version of the CA laws as part of a program to reduce pollution. At one time (late 80's) Missouri was using a program after California smog standards areas where they test until they developed.

Also, as long as I can remember, the California laws have always had two components, a visual inspection and the pipe test. I don't ever recall it being just a visual inspection which would be complete BS because we made a fine art of plugging the smog equipment but leaving it hooked up when the CHP got a hard on for doing random inspections during traffic stops.

I can detect better air quality in the Los Angeles basin and the Sacramento area. Sacramento is better because they also banned the burning of the rice fields to the west, though that was seasonal. I can recall air so bad that my eyes would water all day. You could not see across the San Fernando Valley from my cousins house in the hills of Encino. It was amazing to look down to the Union Bank building near Ventura and Sepulveda, only about 2 miles away and somedays, barely make it out. Flying in to LAX meant decending through a thick brown "fog". The air is clearly better.

As far a heavy trucks, those are way past due for getting some adjustment to their belching ways. That change will cost all of us. If I am correct, you can't idle your semi for hours while you sleep anymore in certain areas. Whether that is by local ordinance or CARB statute, I am not sure, but in my opinion that is a good thing.

[This message has been edited by Wudman (edited 09-28-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Mastermind: Another coincidence, because her policies are irrelevant without the republican govenor agreeing by signing the bill making it law. Correct?

No. Democrats have strong control of the legislature in this state. Arnold just happened to agree with this one. If he didn't, they would find a way to overrule him.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: No. Democrats have strong control of the legislature in this state. Arnold just happened to agree with this one. If he didn't, they would find a way to overrule him.

Mabe they would have, maybe they wouldn't. The point is you are going after only half of the parties responsible. Where's your outrage toward your republican govenor that made this law your nightmare?