Something to think about...

Finally, The Truth on National TV

Billy Graham's daughter was being interviewed on the

Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her

"How could God let something like this happen?" And

Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said

"I believe that God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for

years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of

our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman that He is, I believe that He has calmly backed out.

How can we expect God to Give us His blessing and His protection if we demand that He leave us alone?" I know there's been a lot of an email going around in regards to 9/11/01, but this really makes you think. If you don't have time, at least skim through it, but the bottom line is something to think about....

In light of recent events...terrorists attack,

school shootings, etc. Let's see, I think it started when Madeline

Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body was found recently) complained she didn't want any prayer in our schools, and we said OK. Then, someone said you better not read the Bible in school... the Bible that says thou shall not kill; thou shall not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself.

And we said, OK.

Then, Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide) and we said, an expert should know what he's talking about so

we said OK.

Then, someone said teachers and principals better not discipline our children when they misbehave. And the school administrators said no faculty member in this school better touch a student when they misbehave because we don't want any bad publicity, and we surely don't want to be sued (There's big difference between disciplining and touching, beating, smacking, humiliating, kicking, etc.)

And we said, OK.

Then someone said, let's let our daughters have abortions if they want, and they won't even have to tell their parents.

And we said, OK.

Then some wise school board member said, since boys will be boys and they're going to do it anyway, let's give our sons all the condoms they want, so they can have all the fun they desire, and we won't have to tell their parents they got them at school.

And we said, OK.

Then some of our top elected officials said it doesn't matter what we do in private as long as we do our jobs. And agreeing with them, we said it doesn't matter to me what anyone, including the President, does in private as long as I have a job and the economy is good.

And then someone said let's print magazines with pictures of nude women and call it wholesome, down-to-earth appreciation for the beauty of the female body.

And we said, OK.

And then someone else took that appreciation a step further and published pictures of nude children and then stepped further still by making them available on the Internet. And we said OK; they're

entitled to their free speech.

And then the entertainment industry said, let's make TV shows and movies that promote profanity, violence, and illicit sex. And let's record music that encourages rape, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic themes. And we said it's just entertainment, it has no adverse effect, and nobody takes it seriously anyway, so go right ahead.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough,

we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with

"WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."

"Dear God, Why didn't you save the little girl killed in her

classroom?"

Sincerely, Concerned Student...

AND THE REPLY "Dear Concerned Student, I am not allowed in schools".

Sincerely, God.

Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the

world's going to hell.

Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the

Bible says.

Funny how everyone wants to go to heaven provided they do not have to

believe, think, say, or do anything the Bible says.

Funny how someone can say "I believe in God" but still follow Satan who,

by the way, also "believes" in God.

Funny how we are quick to judge but not to be judged.

Funny how you can send a thousand 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread

like wildfire, but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing.

Funny how the lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene pass freely through

cyberspace, but the public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.

Funny how someone can be so fired up for Christ on Sunday, but be an

invisible Christian the rest of the week. Are you laughing?

Funny how when you go to forward this message, you will not send it to

many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they will think of you for sending it to them.

Funny how I can be more worried about what other people think of me than

what God thinks of me.

Are you thinking?

Pass it on if you think it has merit. If not then just discard it....no

one will know that you did. But, if you discard this thought process, then don't sit back and complain about what a bad shape the world is in!

»§«:*´ `³¤³´`*:»©·´¯`·>© ©<·´¯`·©«:*´`³¤³´`*:»§«

God Bless America

»§«:*´ `³¤³´`*:»©·´¯`·>© ©<·´¯`·©«:*´`³¤³´`*:»

Oh, boy. Here we go again! Johnny, where are you?

Fire extinquishers at the ready. Purple K, halon, light water, foam foggers charged on this one.

boy is this is gonna be a BIG ass flame war now.

i disagree with everything.

billy grahm is a joke. same with those other preachers on tv healing people and making a buck.

school shootings, lack of god, thats all a joke. its called BAD PARENTING.

we dont need god for a society to run "right"

read my "things we hate people doing" thread theres stuff from darklord and his explainations which i posted also, in another thread a while back.

bad parents, censoring our kids, blaming the school because they didn't teach kids right or wrong.

the terrorists did this because they "believe in god"

i gotta say that i agree 100% with the original post

now if you'll excuse me, i hear there's a sale on flame suits

[This message has been edited by Jaygee79 (edited 11-15-2001).]

Hey SCCA FIERO!
One word...
AMEN!

How arrogant as a people we must be to believe that God is that petty. If you truly believe that God is responsible (standing by and watching is the same as guilt) for the 9-11 deaths, then you clearly have a gross misunderstanding as to what religion is.
If you ASK me (which you didn't) this sounds like yet another invertebrate PARASITE trying to dig for Donations. Give God Your Money. God Needs a New Beach House. God Needs To Pay For All Of This Propaganda.
Let me lay my hands on you, and you will be healed.

Go ahead. Blame God for what happens. Why? Why God? Why did you do this?
God sits back and says: "Who, Me? You did this to yourselves."
Why does God let all the starving children in Ethernopia die?
"You feed 'em... They won't die... Why do *I* have to do it?"
Why do wars happen? Because we do ILL **** in his name.
"Stop the fighting? Why me? Put down your guns and live in peace like I TOLD YOU."

Come on. Tell me that you're more intelligent than that. God gave us freedom of thought. The gift of choice. All we've ever done is abuse it. But the gift still stands. So we should have the CHURCH run everything? Ram Christianity down everyone's throat? I thought the idea was to come by it on your own terms. Belief is that much stronger out of someone that figures it out for him/herself.

[/pissed off rant]

quote Originally posted by fierospeeder: boy is this is gonna be a BIG ass flame war now. No war, just friendly discussion if you don't mind... i disagree with everything. That is the best part of America, YOU are not FORCED to believe in anything, but you can choose what you want to believe. billy grahm is a joke. same with those other preachers on tv healing people and making a buck. Perhaps they are, but they are still spreading the word of God... It takes a lot of money to run a television program, as the government will not provide funding! school shootings, lack of god, thats all a joke. its called BAD PARENTING. If the parents don't have a "GOOD" moral standard, how can they be "GOOD" parents? we dont need god for a society to run "right" As if the thousands of laws we have makes society run "RIGHT"... The Bible only has 10 "LAWS" that covers ALL bases... read my "things we hate people doing" thread theres stuff from darklord and his explainations which i posted also, in another thread a while back. bad parents, censoring our kids, blaming the school because they didn't teach kids right or wrong. the terrorists did this because they "believe in god" Perhaps they do, but were they taught to do evil, by evil people, with an evil ajenda? And could the true word of God have been kept hidden from the terrorists, so they did not know what they did was evil? Even Hitler was able to convince a nation that killing Jews and non-ariens was just the extermination of an inferior race... And he acomplised the corruption of a nation by substituting paganism for christianity... When people are not exposed to GOOD (ie. the Bible) they will not develope good habits, and will degenerate to EVIL... And saying a non-entity like a government can keep society GOOD with bad laws is also a shifting of the blame. Yes, bad parents, bad kids, and bad schools can be a cause the degeneration of a society... And if they are never exposed to good, how can they ever be brought away from evil? And how can we teach right from wrong if we do not have a benchmark, a standard, some form of measure, to go by? In the past, the Bible was used as that standard for morallity in America... And now that the Bible is a BANNED book in PUBLIC schools, you see more and more degeneration of morals in our public schools, as each new generation falls farther and farther from God... BTW, our public schools still teach Greek, Roman and other forms of pagan religions in the classrooms, but they say it is just literiture, not religious training. But if that is the only religion a child is exposed to, isn't that going to become their standard for morallity? That reminds me, I have been seeing an ad on television about a new program where "Sin is in"... I am not planning on watching that program, but I am sure many adults will watch, and the children in those homes are going to get more of the wrong impression about morallity...

You're making the assumption that the Bible is GOOD. What if we're wrong? The point is that TRUE freedom isn't about Gun Control, or freedom of speach.

TRUE freedom is to be able to think HOWEVER you want, and to feel how you want. Your actions might be limited to social norms, but NO-ONE should be allowed to govern your thoughts. If you decide to raise your child with Sikh views, then it isn't right to subject him/her to christianity.

Keeping the Bible out of school isn't rejecting God. What ever gave you THAT idea? What's the point of teaching someone who doesn't believe the christian view system? Sure, it may be of SOME value to the Christian students. But for the rest? If they WANT to embrace christianity, then they will do so on their own (or their parents will do so). A public place of learning is NOT an appropriate environment.

The Bible doesn't teach us our moral values. Our parents do. If they need the BIBLE to do that, then they are ****ing up royally. Fine, if they use the bible as a tool, then more power to them. But to expect a SCHOOL, away from home to instill the fundamentals of right and wrong? WITHOUT your control!?? How irresponsible is that?

SCCA, some nice thoughts.

Mach, I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying as well..

The origin of the "we asked God to leave, so He did" wasn't literal, it was sarcastic. No one believes (ie, follows) God and His teachings anymore, so that's why we have many of the problems we do.

In other words, we do "do it to ourselves", but because we've turned away from Him.

--------------

Just saw your second post. Again, you're close...but...

The Bible isn't allowed in schools, but the Book of Mormon is, as is the Jehova's Witness version of the Bible (and it's actually very close) as is the Koran, etc, etc...people aren't complaining that school isn't "teaching Christianity", but that it is unevenly condemned in relation to "other" ideas. You can even learn abour "Wicca" (Paganism) in school.

[This message has been edited by TRiAD (edited 11-15-2001).]

actually this is the netherlands

schools only teach spanish, french, and german, hardly any schools teach the old language. Its more of a college thing.

The kids that go to religious school are more rebelious then the kids in public school. The reason is because they are not allowed to do anything. They are sheltered from the outside and not allowed to express their thoughts.

so if we believe in religion, then it makes us do bad things like hitlers wrongdoings? so if we didn't believe in religion, then we would fall for that scam?

so billy gram and the others should sell their homes and swimming pools and use that money to make those so expensive commercials and live like "real" priests.

quote Originally posted by TRiAD: SCCA, some nice thoughts. Mach, I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying as well.. The origin of the "we asked God to leave, so He did" wasn't literal, it was sarcastic. No one believes (ie, follows) God and His teachings anymore, so that's why we have many of the problems we do. In other words, we do "do it to ourselves", but because we've turned away from Him. -------------- Just saw your second post. Again, you're close...but... The Bible isn't allowed in schools, but the Book of Mormon is, as is the Jehova's Witness version of the Bible (and it's actually very close) as is the Koran, etc, etc...people aren't complaining that school isn't "teaching Christianity", but that it is unevenly condemned in relation to "other" ideas. You can even learn abour "Wicca" (Paganism) in school. [This message has been edited by TRiAD (edited 11-15-2001).]

Well, that I DIDN'T know. I thought the reference to other religions was like Greek Mythology and stuff. My bad. In that case, I retract. Let the bible back in, but don't TEACH it, and let ALL of those holy books sit on a shelf for ANYONE that WANTS to read them... My point isn't that religion should be banned, but that School is a place for learning. Not for being taught moral values. That should be happening at home.

Incidently, the JW's bible is the "King James" Translation. William Shakespear had a hand in that. Book of Mormon (*shudder*, Mormons) is very similar. Although they feign aloofness, they are all the same thing. The difference is in how literally you take chosen passages.

Again, stuff 'em all on a shelf, and let them be perused at will...

Now, from personal experience: I've been to a grand total of 7 schools. Some were private/religious, some were public/semi-religious and some were public/non-denominational...

If I was pressed to compare 'em, the Public-non and public-semi schools were pretty much the same. Bullying occurs. It's universal. Stratification of different children. In my case, the semis tended more towards bigotry, but to a small extent. This was another country, too, so I'm not sure if this was partly a social thing.

HOWEVER, the private religious?!? Never have I seen such rampant hipocracy. FieroSpeeder is right. There are NO hellspawn on this planet like religious school children. I can't even REMEMBER the crap that was done to me... My parents DO. And I was 12-13... That's 8 years ago. There isn't stratification, as such, as this implies layers. Holy Cross was 1-dimensional. You were either "in" and on the same plane, or you didn't exist. Not "out." I mean "NOT EXISTING" as in the sociopathic sense. You aren't really there, so you don't feel pain. Nothing hurts you, because you aren't real. The others go to church, so they MUST be good. The ones getting picked on MUST be doing something wrong. I was told this at age 12 by both a priest and the headmistress. Something was wrong with ME to be picked on like I was. I don't remember much. I remember before, and I remember after. There's one year of horror. What I CAN remember? My bike had the front wheel nuts loosened. I found out going up a curb at considerable speed. I still have a scar on my arm to remind me as to how much I ****ING HATE organized religion.

How can someone preach to be so pure, and have young minds absorb this. Then go out to the playground minutes later, and, through the self-virtue of being a devout christian torment a normal child to the point that he can't even remember? My parents tell me I came home crying every day. I feel the lump in my throat as I try to remember.

Actually, I couldn't ever quantify why I can't stand organized religion. Funny, now I do. I now know why I hate going to church. God never listned to me as a child. He didn't stop those kids from doing whatever the **** they did. To be completely devout BEFORE you go to the religious school. Going there, and seeing what people REALLY are like under their masks of self-righteousness. The inquisition is still alive and well. For the people who judge based on their "values." If you've ever hated a Gay person because of what some bible told you. If you've ever cursed a Muslim for what happened on 9-11. You aren't any better than they ones that broke heretics on the wheel.

I'm hurting pretty bad right now. I can't believe a totally unrelated topic did this to me. You guys are seriously worse than any shrink. I'm sorry if I offend anyone with my rants. I'm not sure why they are coming out now... Oddly, I feel better about things... I'm gonna have a lie-down and think...

[This message has been edited by Mach10 (edited 11-16-2001).]

Well i'm pretty sure you all know where i stand on the issue, but just in case i'll state that i agree with SCCA FIERO 100%

------------------
Joe

quote Originally posted by Mach10: The Bible doesn't teach us our moral values. Our parents do. If they need the BIBLE to do that, then they are ****ing up royally. Fine, if they use the bible as a tool, then more power to them. But to expect a SCHOOL, away from home to instill the fundamentals of right and wrong? WITHOUT your control!?? How irresponsible is that?

Just wanted to point something out here. All of our society's 'morals' are Bible-based. Whether or not you believe in Christianity or the Bible, this society is based on Christian standards.

Kids are very susceptible (sp?) to everything. Schools may not plan to 'teach' morals, but kids pick up things (like the kid next to him is allowed to bring his Mormon Bible to School but he can't bring his Christian Bible. That might give him the idea that Christianity is bad and Mormonism is good). No matter what you do, if you are around kids you are going to have an effect on them somehow.

[This message has been edited by Jaygee79 (edited 11-16-2001).]

quote Originally posted by Jaygee79: Just wanted to point something out here. All of our society's 'morals' are Bible-based. Whether or not you believe in Christianity or the Bible, this society is based on Christian standards. Kids are very susceptible (sp?) to everything. Schools may not plan to 'teach' morals, but kids pick up things (like the kid next to him is allowed to bring his Mormon Bible to School but he can't bring his Christian Bible. That might give him the idea that Christianity is bad and Mormonism is good). No matter what you do, if you are around kids you are going to have an effect on them somehow. [This message has been edited by Jaygee79 (edited 11-16-2001).] [This message has been edited by Jaygee79 (edited 11-16-2001).]

Yeah, sorry. It was kinda hard to word. What I meant was that parents should be concerned with what skills the schools should teach. Moral values MUST be dealt with at home. If they pick stuff up, it's the parent's responsibility to address it. After the fact, if necessary. For example, a study was done that showed that violent video games/TV do raise aggression in children. HOWEVER, the number dropped BELOW the test-variable (children with no exposure) if the parents discuss what's going on, and explain the difference in reality/right/wrong. Food for thought....

Now, as for the fact that our (yes, Canada, too) society instills predominantly Christian values. But again, this is the Parent's perogative. Remember that there are PLENTY of atheists who have NEVER read the bible, or went to church that have the same values. But they don't (always... At least no more than the religious) go on murderous/kleptomanic rampages. Even if their parents weren't christian, they were still taught compatible ideals to the rest of society. I stress again. SCHOOLS SHOULD NOT be responsible for this. Part of the problem of today's society is that the parents are FAR too irresponsible. It's illegal to discipline a child. Both parents work. School teaches everything. This includes on the Playground. Without much parental intervention, OF COURSE the children go ferral

As for the "everything BUT the bible allowed:
"
Well, I can see the reasoning... Makes sense, if you assume that everyone BUT the christian is a minority... Of course, though, this is BS. You either eliminate religious literature entirely (censor == BAD), or make it all available. HOWEVER, if you make it all available, you DON'T PREACH any of it. Like I said, stick it in an accessible shelf, and let people peruse it at their leisure.

EDIT: Sorry, I've implied that women should stay home. That's not what I meant. I'm a firm believer in tag-team parenting, AND paternal leave

I will stress this: PARENTS NEED TO TAKE FAR MORE RESPONSIBILITY THAN THEY HAVE BEEN FOR THE PAST 15 YEARS!!!!

[This message has been edited by Mach10 (edited 11-16-2001).]

Just a couple minor clarifications;

Jehova's Witnesses do NOT use the King James. They have a "New World" translation (their own) that is very similar to NIV, with a few "changes".

The Book of Mormon is nothing like the Bible, they use the Bible, and have their "companion" book of Mormon. It teaches of Jesus' supposed visit to the American Indians after his resurrection.
(A converted LDS friend of mine calls it "A Testament of Another Jesus Christ" )

One thing to think about..I believe in God, and have in fact given my life to Christ. It's a struggle, and I'm not perfect, but it's true. I'm also about as straight-forward a person as you'll ever see (telling slightly off-color jokes to my Worship Pastor yesterday at lunch for one. He's pretty straight-forward as well)...
That said, I am NOT religious. Religion is, by definition, MAN's search for God.
I do not believe in religion. I simply believe in the Bible and in living for God.

This is where so many people get hung up. They think they have to be something they're not (perfect) to be able to be a Christian. Quite the opposite.
Look at the disciples. Fisherman, tax collectors, not exactly Harvard valedictorians. And Mary? Also a nobody.

God's strength is shown best in contrast to my weakness, and can only be shown through me if I humble myself and let him. If I'm trying to be perfect and fake everyone out, He can't work.

That doesn't mean I don't try to follow His commandments, quite the opposite, but it doesn't mean I put on a facade, either.

Eh, my $0.02 anyway...

Here is my take on the subject. Religion was removed from schools and now we have kids bringing weapons to schools and performing violent crimes. All religions have "rules" about not stealing or killing. Young kids are very impressionable. When religion was taken out of the schools many families went lax on their religious beliefs since it was not part of their childs schooling. Parents now need to be cautious with dicipling a child because some laws consider spanking a child as abuse. The problems we face can not be linked to one thing. It is a mixture of many things that shape our kids. Parents are in competition with the childs peers. All parents need to teach their kids right and wrong. Some do, some don't. Teachers have our children 8 hours a day so they also have an input into the children. Religion was one way they could instill the "right vs wrong" teachings. Children are very impressionable and learn by repetition.
Now even teachers cannot dicipline the children. The lack of dicipline cannot be blamed on the parents when 1/2 of every day 2/3's of the year they are in school and usually with young kids in the summer they are in child care or when old enough, home by themselves or with their peers (friends). Many parents need to both work in order to raise their children.
Being a father of 2 boys and working nights, I have the advantage of spending the days with mine. The oldest now spends the day in school. So now it is up to the teachers to continue "shaping" my son.
Basically what I'm saying is religion was a vehicle that aided in teaching our children right from wrong. So was the occasional spankings. It takes Parents and teachers working together to steer a child in the right path. We all need to now find a way to teach these right/wrong morals now that the way we did it in the past has been removed. I personally don't care what the "experts" say on child diciplining. Some suggestions they offer work for a while but it is not the entire answer.

Finally, those that say "It's not my religion, and I'm offended by it" I say tough. This country was founded on christianity. This country was set-up with the "pursuit of freedom", How much freedom do I have if I have to change the way my children are taught morals because someone from somewhere else is offened by it?

To all those that find the above offensive, Please see the below which was an E-mail I received and firmly believe should be printed on the front page of every U.S. Newspaper every 4th of July.

quote HELLO! THIS IS AMERICA! Broken Arrow, Oklahoma School officials remove "God Bless America" signs from schools in fear that someone might be offended. Channel 12 News in Long Island, New York, orders flags removed from the newsroom and red, white, and blue ribbons removed from the lapels of reporters. Why? Management did not want to appear biased and felt that our nations flag might give the appearance that "they lean one way or another". Berkeley, California bans U.S. Flags from being displayed on city fire trucks because they didn't want to offend anyone in the community. In an "act of tolerance" the head of the public library at Florida Gulf Coast University ordered all "Proud to be an American" signs removed so as to not offend international students. I, for one, am quite disturbed by these actions of so-called American citizens; and I am tired of this nation worrying about whether or not we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on September 11, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Americans. However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled in New York and Washington D.C. when the "politically correct" crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to America. In fact, our country's population is almost entirely comprised of descendants of immigrants. However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some native Americans, need to understand. First of all, it is not our responsibility to continually try not to offend you in any way. This idea of America being a multi-cultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language, and our own lifestyle. This culture, called the "American Way" has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom. Our forefathers fought, bled, and died at places such as Bunker Hill, Antietam, San Juan, Iwo Jima, Normandy, Korea, and Vietnam. We speak English, not Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society - learn our language! "In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some off-the-wall, Christian, Right Wing, political slogan; it is our national motto. It is engraved in stone in the House of Representatives in our Capitol and it is printed on our currency. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation; and this is clearly documented throughout our history. If it is appropriate for our motto to be inscribed in the halls of our highest level of Government, then it is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. God is in our pledge, our National Anthem, nearly every patriotic song, and in our founding documents. We honor His birth, death, and resurrection as holidays, and we turn to Him in prayer in times of crisis. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture and we are proud to have Him. We are proud of our heritage and those who have so honorably defended our freedoms. We celebrate Independence Day, Memorial Day, Veterans Day, and Flag Day. We have parades, picnics, and barbecues where we proudly wave our flag. As an American, I have the right to wave my flag, sing my national anthem, quote my national motto, and cite my pledge whenever and wherever I choose. If the Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. The American culture is our way of life, our heritage, and we are proud of it. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from, if it was so superior, go home. We are Americans, like it or not, this is our country, our land, and our lifestyle. Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right to express his opinion about our government, culture, or society, and we will allow you every opportunity to do so. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great American freedom, the right to leave. If you agree, pass this onto other Americans!! It is time to take a stand!! MAY GOD BLESS AMERICA LAND THAT WE LOVE!!!

------------------

Happiness isn't around the corner...
Happiness IS the corner.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 11-16-2001).]

First off, I'm not religious by any means or stretch of the imagination, but acknowledge others beliefs on the subject, regardless of their religous views or indoctrination.

Second, regarding parenting. Parents do need to take or have a higher level of responsibility with their children and overseeing what they do.

For example, if you yourself are raised in a house of theives, your morality is skewed and you yourself will foster the belief that stealing and other instances of crime are okay. Then when you yourself become a parent, those fostered beliefs that you were raised with will subsequently be perpetuated upon your children...the cycle continues.

Therefore, if parents of today are not fostering their children with morally acceptable social behavior, there children are i.e. growing up blind to what "IS" and "IS NOT" okay and their perceptions and beliefs of how they should and should not act are going to be based on what they adapt from other instances in society. Violence, profanity, rape, sex, drug abuse, alchohol abuse, etc. that they may see in everyday life through other sources.

I have the undesirable pleasure of watching classmates that I had grown up with that had grown up in disfunctional families, and are now raising kids of their own. They themselves have no parenting skills. Their kids are holy nightmares if not terrors, causing problems, constantly in trouble with the law, while the parents sit in the bar and still go to parites every chance they get.

And yet the other classmates I grew up with that came from "semi" healthy homes, sound parenting, close knit relationships are able to raise kids that you wish you could adopt as your very own, because they have the polite moral and social views.

Take for instance my three step-daughters. They came from a home with an abusive father and an abusive religious background (World Wide Church of God) that to me taught very impractical stuff within their church. Like how to beat your kids and not leave a mark.

When I met my wife to be Janice, the kids were getting low grades in school, had no self esteem, thought what was going on in the world was okay and that it was okay to be abusive and one daughter, well, she is still flipping back and fourth between what is right and what is wrong.

However, they are getting better grades, have a higher self esteem, are more socially active, into positive things (band, sports, etc.), because I myself do not tolerate certain things.

But that's just me.

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quote Originally posted by Mach10: The Bible doesn't teach us our moral values. Our parents do. If they need the BIBLE to do that, then they are ****ing up royally. Fine, if they use the bible as a tool, then more power to them. But to expect a SCHOOL, away from home to instill the fundamentals of right and wrong? WITHOUT your control!?? How irresponsible is that?

Religion aside, the real problem is a LOT of parents are NOT teaching right from wrong, or even worse teaching them that wrong IS right. How do we wind up with a young adult who's morality is so screwed up he not only thinks it's OK to rob someone, but has no problem with killing them to lessen his chances of being caught? Probably because he was only taught to NOT do things because of the possible consequences to him. In his mind nothing is wrong as long as he doesn't get caught.

Yes it's irresponsible for parents to rely on school/society to teach morals. It's also irresponsible for society to ignore the fact that some parents are not going to teach them and allow kids to be raised with NO guidance.

Im surprized that no one has recognized what happened in that interview.

Jane Clayton asked Grahm a loaded question " how could a loving God allow...blah blah blah"

she didnt want an answer - she was implying by the statement that either:

A. God is NOT loving

or

B. Tragities like these PROVE there IS NO GOD.

Its the same as asking someone if they have stopped beating their wife yet. The question was a blantent insult and putdown.

Why? Because the true answer is obvious - God has given man a freewill and we understand the difference between good and evil.

God is not going to take away our freewill, neither by controlling our minds, nor by stepping in and preventing men from exersizing their freewill.

People who dont want to believe in God complain that God has all these rules and regulations that his believers MUST follow - that any true believer is nothing but a mindless robot doing what they are programmed to do.

but then these very same people, when something like 9-11 happens, jump up and ask, whey doesnt God control everyone - why are we not all mindless robots, cause clearly that would be a GOOD THING

!?

I guess its only ok for YOU to have a freewill - God should control everyone else with an iron fist - is that how it works?!

quote Originally posted by TRiAD: Just a couple minor clarifications; Jehova's Witnesses do NOT use the King James. They have a "New World" translation (their own) that is very similar to NIV, with a few "changes".

The ones that I know said they did... Or so I thought... I'll check again

Orief: *I* turned out ok. Based on what I had seen, it was perfectly acceptable (if not sanctioned) to beat the CRAP out of anyone weaker, or smaller, or different that you are... Don't see me doing that kind of **** . Why? Because my parents took parenting VERY seriously. I got spanked around if I needed it. (I needed a lot of 'em ) I was taught right from wrong both in the home, AND the church. This is how it should be in a religious (or casually religious) family. But this does NOT apply to everyone.
Religion CAN be very important. But it should NEVER be the sole thing raising your child. You are right. it should be AIDING in raising. You use a tractor to plow a feild. You don't just stick it in gear and jump off the seat, and expect the feild to be cleared.

Oh, and I read that email... *shakes head*
That's sad, man. SAD. I'm not going there. Not with a 6ft pole.

Jsocha: That is the problem. What happens when the parents are unfit to parent? The schools have no tools to use. The church could be an answer... But the parents have to care enough to send them. Is it right to send in your version of Child&Family Services and displace the kids into a foster home? If there is abuse, sure... But what if there isn't? It's STICKY. I don't have any answers, but the current methods and practices are WRONG. I know for a FACT that if I have to QUIT my job for several years, my kids (God forbid ) will have it right.

Ken: I saw it... But the blame-shifting answer pisses me off. It's kinda arrogant. You don't see that? God is to be loved... You (the world in general ) are treating it like a curse. And NO, I thought that way BEFORE I saw Dogma. Sins of the Father never made any sense. What the hell did *I* ever do? Well, a lot... But before that? C'mon... Tell me again how that 2 week old child is guilty of anything. The bible teaches a LOT of nifty stuff. Interspersed is the idea that God hates you for stuff done YEARS ago, by other people. Then immediately goes on about how His love is Infinite... Either THAT doesn't make sense, or God has Bi-Polar Disorder.

quote Originally posted by Mach10: ...The bible teaches a LOT of nifty stuff. Interspersed is the idea that God hates you for stuff done YEARS ago, by other people. Then immediately goes on about how His love is Infinite... Either THAT doesn't make sense, or God has Bi-Polar Disorder.

You just misunderstood it. There are teachings about people paying for their actions through their lineage (heck, "fallen nature" is just that), but there's nothing in there ANYWHERE about God "hating" anyone. God only hates Sin, not the sinner. That's what WE'RE called to do as well.

About your question on infants, God's GRACE covers us until we're at an age "of accountability". This is no set day, it's when we come to a realization and make a decision of our own.

All it (fallen nature) means is that we are "born into sin", and once we reach an age of accountability, cannot enter the Kingdon of God without the name of Jesus.
If you believe in Him, and confess Him with your mouth, you are saved.
Now, there's a longer discussion of making Him "Lord of your life", giving Him control of your life, but we don't need to go there just now.

First off, SCCA Fiero - good stuff. It really makes sense.

Oreif - excellent article.

Mach10 - you obviously don't know the bible. I don't know it in depth either but I do know that there is no reference ANYWHERE to God 'hating' anyone who does not follow in his ways.

The bible says 'forgive and forget' (the new testament), not 'God hates you for stuff done years ago'.

GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT. If you're going to reference a book (bible, in this case) don't make stuff up. You don't sound very credible, you just sound angry and biased.

A couple of people mentioned TV evangelists and 'sending your money now'. DON'T confuse most TV evangelists with REAL Christians. Many (if not most) of those guys, prey on people's emotions. This is their business - it has nothing to do with true Christianity.

One other thing. Fierowrecker mentinoned the 10 laws. Those 10 laws are designed with humanity's best interests in mind. Those of you who are not familiar with them, look into them some time. Then ask yourself, are these REALLY BAD? What would happen if we followed (and were taught in schools and homes) the 10 commandments? Would the world turn upside down? Or, maybe, JUST MAYBE, it would actually become a better place.

To all of you who question God - keep in mind these two words: FREE WILL.

One last thing. If the parents weren't taught right from wrong, their kids won't be either. Morals (and no, MORALS is NOT a swear word) should be taught everywhere, not just at home.

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quote Originally posted by Mach10: Religion CAN be very important. But it should NEVER be the sole thing raising your child. You are right. it should be AIDING in raising. You use a tractor to plow a feild. You don't just stick it in gear and jump off the seat, and expect the feild to be cleared.

I agree that religion should not be the "sole" thing. When it's the "sole" thing, that's when you get extremeists like the Taliban. The analogy of clearing the field is a good one. I guess that is my point, people most often blame one thing or another for the problems we have today. When in reality it's all the little things added together that cause the problems.

quote Originally posted by SCCA FIERO: Something to think about... SOMETHING TO FEAR Finally, The Truth on National TV NO ONLY MORE LIES Billy Graham's daughter was being interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her "How could God let something like this happen?" And Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said "I believe that God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman that He is, I believe that He has calmly backed out. AND IF ONLY THE BELIVERS WOULD TOOOO How can we expect God to Give us His blessing and His protection if we demand that He leave us alone?" I know there's been a lot of an email going around in regards to 9/11/01, but this really makes you think. If you don't have time, at least skim through it, but the bottom line is something to think about.... In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. Let's see, I think it started when Madeline LONG BEFOR HER BUT BELIVERS KILLED THEM Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body was found recently) complained she didn't want any prayer in our schools, and we said OK. Then, someone said you better not read the Bible in school... the Bible that says thou shall not kill; thou shall not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said, OK. I AM SURE TALIBAN WOULD SUPPORT YOUR REFORMS Then, Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide) and we said, an expert should know what he's talking about so we said OK. TALIBAN BEAT KIDS TOOO Then, someone said teachers and principals better not discipline our children when they misbehave. And the school administrators said no faculty member in this school better touch a student when they misbehave because we don't want any bad publicity, and we surely don't want to be sued (There's big difference between disciplining and touching, beating, smacking, humiliating, kicking, etc.) And we said, OK. TALIBAN BELIVES SAME AS YOUR DO Then someone said, let's let our daughters have abortions if they want, and they won't even have to tell their parents. And we said, OK. NO ABORTIONS UNDER TALIBAN Then some wise school board member said, since boys will be boys and they're going to do it anyway, let's give our sons all the condoms they want, so they can have all the fun they desire, and we won't have to tell their parents they got them at school. And we said, OK. NO BIRTH CONTROLL FOR BEN LADIN OR TALIBAN Then some of our top elected officials said it doesn't matter what we do in private as long as we do our jobs. And agreeing with them, we said it doesn't matter to me what anyone, including the President, does in private as long as I have a job and the economy is good. I AM SURE BEN LADIN AGREES WITH YOU And then someone said let's print magazines with pictures of nude women and call it wholesome, down-to-earth appreciation for the beauty of the female body. And we said, OK. NO PLAYBOY'S MAG ALLOWED BY TALIBAN And then someone else took that appreciation a step further and published pictures of nude children and then stepped further still by making them available on the Internet. And we said OK; they're entitled to their free speech. NO PIC OR FREE SPEACH IS FINE WITH TALIBAN And then the entertainment industry said, let's make TV shows and movies that promote profanity, violence, and illicit sex. And let's record music that encourages rape, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic themes. And we said it's just entertainment, it has no adverse effect, and nobody takes it seriously anyway, so go right ahead. TALIBAN SAID NO TV NO MOVIES OR MUSIC AT ALL Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves. TALIBAN LIKES KILLING STRANGERS BUT NOT CLASSMATES OR SELF LIKE JOHN ASHCROFT IN OREGON'S NEW LAW BAN HE DID FOR RELIGIOUS REASONS Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW." "Dear God, Why didn't you save the little girl killed in her classroom?" Sincerely, Concerned Student... AND THE REPLY "Dear Concerned Student, I am not allowed in schools". Sincerely, God. Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says. Funny how everyone wants to go to heaven provided they do not have to believe, think, say, or do anything the Bible says. Funny how someone can say "I believe in God" but still follow Satan who, by the way, also "believes" in God. Funny how we are quick to judge but not to be judged. Funny how you can send a thousand 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire, but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing. Funny how the lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene pass freely through cyberspace, but the public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace. BELIVERS WANT TO SUPPRESS DISCUSSION OF TRUTH SAME AS TALIBAN DOES Funny how someone can be so fired up for Christ on Sunday, but be an invisible Christian the rest of the week. Are you laughing? AT YOU YESSS, AT TALIBAN YESSS, BEATS CRYING Funny how when you go to forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they will think of you for sending it to them. Funny how I can be more worried about what other people think of me than what God thinks of me. Are you thinking? OF HOW ALL OF THIS THE TALIBAN AGREES WITH Pass it on if you think it has merit. If not then just discard it....no NO FIGHT THE EVIL THAT RELIGIONS TRY TO SPRED one will know that you did. But, if you discard this thought process, then don't sit back and complain about what a bad shape the world is in! God Bless America

WHAT IS THE REAL DIFFERENCE IN TALIBAN AND YOUR PLANS FOR MY LAWS I SEE VERY VERY LITTLE DIFFERENCE

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Question wonder and be wierd

Ray, you could at least TRY to make your posts legible.

I think everyone's beginning to see you for the ignorant paranoid you are.

You're right again; Christians ARE the taliban. .

All your "taliban" crap? The Taliban has nothing to do with it. It's the Muslim religion, and will be there whether the Taliban regime is or not. These people over there belive it on their own.

You know what though? They're imprisoning and executing Christian missionaries over there.

...So much for the link you're trying to point out...

Learn your politics and religion before you spout your ignorance and paranoia.

Hey thanks ray. its more and more fun each time I read the same posts by you in 5000 diffrent threads! Keep up the good work. maybe one day you might actually start to believe it yourself. I think Rayb doth protest too much. Still aching for someone to show you the light huh? No matter how many times I read your posts, I still cant shke the feeling that you are scared you are right. You want someone with compelling evidence to show you you are wrong.

'S perfectly clear to me... He's saying that Christian fundamentalism is just like Taliban fundamentalism... Extremists around the world tend to draw AMAZING parrallels

quote Originally posted by fierospeeder: we will still be thinking that the world is flat...

*gasp* Its not flat? http://www.flat-earth.org/
*sigh*
Theres a difference between Beating your kids, and disciplining them. Spankings are a useful way of disciplining, grounding a 3 year old, or giving a stern talking-to ( ) Will Not Work, they're 3! A Spanking or two Will Work, *Doing that = Spanking*, pretty simple.
Besides, what do you do when they disobey the grounding, ground em more?
*sigh*

rayb,

The Declaration of Independence starts by saying we are endowed with certain rights by a creator. It seems to me the only right we would have from a purely scientific standpoint is the survival of the fittest. What should our laws be based on if we aren't allowed to use anything that might be based on the belief in any creator?

quote Originally posted by DRH: rayb, The Declaration of Independence starts by saying we are endowed with certain rights by a [b]creator. It seems to me the only right we would have from a purely scientific standpoint is the survival of the fittest. What should our laws be based on if we aren't allowed to use anything that might be based on the belief in any creator?[/B]

Religion isn't the only source of morality. It's generally agreed that it's BAD to steal from people, it's BAD to kill people, and it's BAD to cheat. Wow! There's 95% of the codes of laws, right there. Who needs religion?

Go to Cuba. There are NO recognized religions
And the people are still fairly happy. IF a little starving from the USA's petty trade embargos that are DECADES old...

"In this world you will have trouble; but, take heart, for I have overcome the world." -words of Jesus Christ
This to me is a guarantee that there will be turmoil, regardless of your religious bent. So deal with it. And, if you ask God to help you deal with it, you will have a strength you wouldn't otherwise have. I believe that.
As far as blame for the 9/11 tragedy, it does not belong to God. Let's not overspiritualize this thing. The blame clearly belongs to those who hijacked the planes, and those who put them up to it.
I also believe there is a devil, but he gets too much credit when bad things happen. Let's face it...we humans screw up well enough on our own without his help.
The most evil people who ever lived used religion to manipulate people, and achieve their sick, twisted goals. So, people equate religious belief (which is man-made) to the nature of God. What a fatal mistake! God is good, all the time, in every way. People, however...
Lastly, God did tell us how to live in peace. But, we have to choose it for ourselves...

quote Originally posted by fogglethorpe: "In this world you will have trouble; but, take heart, for I have overcome the world." -words of Jesus Christ This to me is a guarantee that there will be turmoil, regardless of your religious bent. So deal with it. And, if you ask God to help you deal with it, you will have a strength you wouldn't otherwise have. I believe that. As far as blame for the 9/11 tragedy, it does not belong to God. Let's not overspiritualize this thing. The blame clearly belongs to those who hijacked the planes, and those who put them up to it. I also believe there is a devil, but he gets too much credit when bad things happen. Let's face it...we humans screw up well enough on our own without his help. The most evil people who ever lived used religion to manipulate people, and achieve their sick, twisted goals. So, people equate religious belief (which is man-made) to the nature of God. What a fatal mistake! God is good, all the time, in every way. People, however... Lastly, God did tell us how to live in peace. But, we have to choose it for ourselves...

GIVE THE MAN A SEE-GAR!!!
EXACTLY!

Mach10 you're getting as bad as someone else with your un-documented statements. The fact that Cuba's regime does not recognize any religion does not mean it doesn't exist.5% of the populatioon is Jewish. 40% of Cuba is Catholic-Santeria. A saint worshiping religion. It is Catholicism mixed with Afro beliefs brought over with the slave trade. No religion huh? Remember the throngs that turned out when the Pope visited?
Did you ever stop to consider where man got the idea that it is bad to steal or kill? Anthropologists agree that early man carried out his/her lives much the same as the other animals. Before there was even the rudiments of sun-worship or any other 'religion, war over territory was common, as was murder for females, food, the best caves, etc. cannibalism was common. In short, survival of the fittest. It was only after man developed religion of some sort that right and wrong developed as a philosophy or way of life. These are well documented facts.(as well as anything dealing with ancient man can be)&, I thought, common knowledge. Ray has the right to believe as he wants, but blaming all his dislikes on religion doesn't wash. You know it, I know it, and he knows it. As far as moving to Cuba or them being happy: I spent 2 yrs there, on Guantanamo. Tho not many people realize it, everyday, Cuban workers by the hundreds, come thru the gates from the communist side to work on the U.S. Navy base. I spent many evenings, in those two years, talking & listening to these people in an effort to learn about them. I assure you, they are NOT happy, and it doesn't have anything to do with the embargo. Get your facts straight.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Mach10 you're getting as bad as someone else with your un-documented statements. The fact that Cuba's regime does not recognize any religion does not mean it doesn't exist.5% of the populatioon is Jewish. 40% of Cuba is Catholic-Santeria. A saint worshiping religion. It is Catholicism mixed with Afro beliefs brought over with the slave trade. No religion huh? Remember the throngs that turned out when the Pope visited? Did you ever stop to consider where man got the idea that it is bad to steal or kill? Anthropologists agree that early man carried out his/her lives much the same as the other animals. Before there was even the rudiments of sun-worship or any other 'religion, war over territory was common, as was murder for females, food, the best caves, etc. cannibalism was common. In short, survival of the fittest. It was only after man developed religion of some sort that right and wrong developed as a philosophy or way of life. These are well documented facts.(as well as anything dealing with ancient man can be)&, I thought, common knowledge. Ray has the right to believe as he wants, but blaming all his dislikes on religion doesn't wash. You know it, I know it, and he knows it. As far as moving to Cuba or them being happy: I spent 2 yrs there, on Guantanamo. Tho not many people realize it, everyday, Cuban workers by the hundreds, come thru the gates from the communist side to work on the U.S. Navy base. I spent many evenings, in those two years, talking & listening to these people in an effort to learn about them. I assure you, they are NOT happy, and it doesn't have anything to do with the embargo. Get your facts straight.

I meant recognized by the government... Didn't mean to imply that the population doesn't have it's own beliefs...

Actually, if you want to go by my textbooks, religion doesn't even come into play until you reach a state-level society.

The tool-working, and social structures are a cultural phenomenon, just as religion is. Most "primitive" worships are totemic. Worship the Deer, they give us food. The sun gives us light. In all these cases, I can pretty much guarantee (empirically speaking) that the deer didn't tell them not to kill each other. These laws are written (told, whatever) by the people speaking on the totem's behalf.

People are unique in the Animal kingdom for one MAJOR reason. Evolution is sort of bypassing us. Humans have not changed much in the last 75,000 years, since before the Pleistocene, when the first anatomically modern human skeletons have been found. Humans evolved the abilities to make the modifications necessary for survival conciously, through the use of Culture. If the temperature drops, we don't grow a winter coat. We MAKE one.
In a hunting-gathering society, populations are small. Without enough people, you don't get enough food. (conversely, too many people = not enough food. Balance based on available resources is made) So, people evolved the cultural belief independant on religion that killing and stealing from each other was bad. You had to work WITH the group, or everyone would die. REligion doesn't have to have ANYTHING to do with it.

Now, as society gets more and more complex, the number of band/tribe/group members increases. Soon, H&G will not provide (in most environments) enough food to support the population. Agriculture steps in. AS SOON as that happens, the society swings into Material mode. Before, you SHARED your catch. NOW, if your feild grows enough, you have a surplus. You have wealth. You become important. This is where religion latches on to the society. Gods are created (or expanded on) to give provisions for the wealthy. This stratifies the society. Workers, Nobility, Priesthood. Priests tend to rise to the top. What better way to make laws than to say "God said this!" Again, the more believers you have, the richer you become, and the more powerful. So, you make it illegal to steal, and to kill. You establish a justice system to deal with problems. And so on. Before you know it, you have a fully modern society, the youth have no respect for property or the elderly, and prices are not what they used to be...

As for unhappy cubans... I didn't say they were all happy. I just said that you don't need to have a government that has anything to do with religion to function... I'm also pretty sure that religion isn't the sore point... There are ALWAYS people that aren't happy with the system... But while Cuba is poor, it doesn't mean that it's completely unhappy... Here's a few links:
http://www.georgeschool.org/alumni/news/cuba.html
http://afrocubaweb.com/ninejournalists.htm
http://library.thinkquest.org/18355/daily_life.html

No, you don't need a government of any kind, just to function. I could 'function' on a hamburger & an hours sleep a day, but it wouldn't be much existance after living as I have the last 52 yrs.
Are you saying that man just decided one day out of the clear blue that killing and stealing was wrong? What told them it was wrong? Where did this 95% of the code of laws come from? As for the web links, they say they are 'student created'. Most of the people were young, never experienced anything different.
What have they to compare to? Go down there and talk to the ones that remember full freedom and you will get a different sense.
Books and links are great. I base my statements on what I saw & heard with MY eyes and ears. I can assure you these groups were not allowed full travel and access. Those Cubans aren't braving the 90 mile trip to Fla on rafts in the ocean because they are so happy at home in Cuba. Think maybe they are bored and just do it for an adventure? You need to get out of Ray's 'box' & take a look around at the real world, not just the academic world.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 11-17-2001).]

quote Originally posted by maryjane: No, you don't need a government of any kind, just to function. I could 'function' on a hamburger & an hours sleep a day, but it wouldn't be much existance after living as I have the last 52 yrs. Are you saying that man just decided one day out of the clear blue that killing and stealing was wrong? What told them it was wrong? Where did this 95% of the code of laws come from? As for the web links, they say they are 'student created'. Most of the people were young, never experienced anything different. What have they to compare to? Go down there and talk to the ones that remember full freedom and you will get a different sense. Books and links are great. I base my statements on what I saw & heard with MY eyes and ears. I can assure you these groups were not allowed full travel and access. Those Cubans aren't braving the 90 mile trip to Fla on rafts in the ocean because they are so happy at home in Cuba. Think maybe they are bored and just do it for an adventure? You need to get out of Ray's 'box' & take a look around at the real world, not just the academic world. [This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 11-17-2001).]

Just came back... Real worlds a nifty place
to visit... Sure wouldn't want to live there

Function... Food, place to sleep... What else is there? Point taken about the ability to function without governing bodies. I will say that there are plenty of small preagricultural bands running around various jungles, numbering less than 30 members that have NO concept of government. Closest thing to a leader is the oldest person. The rest is a completely egalitarian, non material society. There's no need for laws. Personal property doesn't exist. Incidents are dealt with BY the group on a case-by-case basis.

Trouble starts when you add some sense of personal wealth, and a larger number of people. Things REALLY tend to go to hell after that

As for the "one man just decided..." Well, yes. The tribes that encourage or were indifferent to killing and stealing from each other died out REALLY quickly... Natural selection. Besides that, Humans are social animals. They have odd feelings about killing each other. Say what you like about aggression and such... How many fist-fights worldwide result in death? Same as dogs. Lots of bites, scrapes, and gouges, but both animals usually survive. Our brain actually shows signs of having a little "Aggression Cut-off switch" when it sees certain signs. Most people will usually stop hitting someone when he/she goes limp or screams. It's the same with Canids, and Felines. There ARE exceptions to this, (in our case, conscious override) but enough parrallels to at least suggest a biological factor.

[This message has been edited by Mach10 (edited 11-17-2001).]