I received the below Email. I know that there are many views about the different points below, But I feel that whatever your views are, This has some merit.

*****************Email*********************

Dear God,
Why didn't you save the school children in
Littleton, Colorado?
Sincerely,
A Concerned Student

Dear Concerned Student,
I am not allowed in schools.
Sincerely,
God

Let's see, I think it started when
Madeline Murray O'Hare complained
she didn't want any prayer in our schools.
And we said, OK.........
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Then, someone said you better not
read the Bible in school, the Bible
that says "thou shalt not kill, thou
shalt not steal, and love your
neighbor as yourself".

And we said, OK.....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our
children when they misbehave because their little
personalities would be warped and we might damage their
self-esteem. And we said, an expert should know what he is
talking about so we won't spank them anymore...............
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Then someone said teachers and
principals better not discipline our
children when they misbehave. And
the school administrators said no
faculty member in this school better
touch a student when they misbehave
because we don't want any bad publicity,
and we surely don't want to be sued.
And we accepted their reasoning..............
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Then someone said, let's let our
daughters have abortions if they
want, and they won't even have to
tell their parents.

And we said, that's a grand idea.............
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Then some wise school board member said
since boys will be boys and they're going to do it anyway,
let's give our sons all the condoms they want,
so they can have all the fun they desire, and we

won't have to tell their parents they got them at school.

And we said, that's another great
idea...........
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And then some of our top elected officials
said it doesn't matter what we do in
private as long as we do our jobs.
And we said, doesn't matter what anybody,
including the President,
does in private as long as we have
jobs and the economy is good..........
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And then someone said let's print
magazines with pictures of nude
women and call it wholesome down-to-earth
appreciation for the beauty of the female body.
And we said, we have no problem with that....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And someone else took that appreciation
a step further and published pictures of
nude children and then stepped further
still by making them available on the internet.

And we said, everyone's entitled to free
speech.............
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And the entertainment industry said,
let's make TV shows and movies
that promote profanity, violence and
illicit sex... And let's record music
that encourages rape, drugs, murder
suicide, and satanic themes........
And we said, it's just entertainment
and it has no adverse effect and
nobody takes it seriously anyway,
so go right ahead....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now we're asking ourselves why our
children have no conscience, and why
they don't know right from wrong, and
why it doesn't bother them to kill
strangers, classmates or even
themselves.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Undoubtedly, if we thought about it
long and hard enough, we could
figure it out. I'm sure it has a great deal
to do with......

"WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."

Couldn't have said it better myself.......

Very well said,If only the consequences of each of those steps could be seen when they came about maybe the next step wouldn't have been taken.It could be at some time in the future the trend will reverse itself,but then we might wind up with something like prohibition and women wearing veils.I don't think it will ever be "just right"except in transition from too much one way to too much the other .

All true.

Today there was another shooting at a California High School. Wonder if it will ever stop? Home schooling is looking to be far safer these days.

Thank you.

Actually, I think the last part should be at the top. My opinion is that Hollywierd and the mass media started and perpetuates it.

No, it won't stop.

I believe that to be totally wrong. All of it.

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: I believe that to be totally wrong. All of it.

I don't know why, but that line cracks me up.

seriously though.. I don't 100% agree with it either.. but I definitely agree that something's gotta be done.

------------------
steve@fieroproject.com
http://www.fieroproject.com

Parents should start being parents and stop blamming everyone else for their kids actions. That's my opinion.

how about bringing back public executions, how often do you think some kid would bring a weapon to school if he knew there was a chance his spine would be snapped at the end of a rope, or his eyes would explode under the onslought of thousands of volts of electricity. i know it sounds kind of sick, but people today don't think about consequences. an eye for an eye perhaps.

Public executions, hmmm. Obviously the punks who shot up Columbine had no fear of death, otherwise they would not have killed themselves. The kind of sick mind that does that kind of thing actually craves noteriety, and probably would thrill to the idea of a drooling public watching their final moments as they eat their supper. Hell, Timothy McVeigh WANTS to be publically executed. It would make him a martyr to a cause in his decayed mind.

Oreif, nice. But I'll have to comment on it. and no I didn't read everyone elses repsonses cuz it gave me a headache, Stimpy you always giving me a headache hehe

Vioelent music, Movies, Games and the such did not warp my fragile lil mind when I was a child. a child of the late 80, early 90's. I paid rather close attention to the news. I watched horror movies with endless blood and guts(and FULL FRONTAL NUDITY) hehe, I'm not warped. I wouldn't go out and shoot someone just becuz they are picking on me. Them kids are shooting up schools for their '15 minutes of fame' and we are giving it to them. Is it our fault? Should we be blamed? Nah. prolly not. My thoughts is if a child is being picked on by one or more students, that child is gonna go after them students. Not any ole person. Atleast thats what I would do. I wouldn't be like, "well hell, I dont even know this person, I'm gonna shoot em anyway. But leave the guy who was picking on me alone. I WANT MY 15 MINUTES" Is it t he medias fault? Maybe, but I wont blame them anymore.

I think it was Sherlock Holmes that said "Rule out all the possibilities and whats left is undoubtfully the truth".

So lets see what we I've ruled out here.
1. Violent Music
2. Violent Movies/TV shows
3. Violent Games
4. School bullies
5. The Media
6. US (the viewers)

whats left? The parents? The Child? The Teachers? Martians? You tell me. What from them 4 should be ruled out?

--
Need a better url? http://www.Spinrpg.com/

Alright JK, let me get this straight. You are saying that it is wrong to teach kids not to kill, not to steal and wrong to love your neighbor?
You are saying that it is wrong to punish children when they misbehave, it is wrong for teachers and principals to administer discipline, you are saying it is perfectly fine for young girls to have abortions at will and for schools to pass out condoms whenever they want?
What you are telling us is that it is alright for the President to be a sicko, pervert, child pornography is a good thing, that children who have no other parent other than the TV will never be affected by what they see?
That is the kind of thinking that allowed us to get in the state we are in now. Just remember, with your attitude, you are always going to be part of the problem and never part of the solution. For that, I hope you are happy and sleep peacefully knowing that because of others like you, the world will never be a better place.

Oreif, there is a little rift in your timeline, movies should come before the internet, being that the internet is rather new and well, movies aren't.

Other than that, all I have to say is, "The end is near, just wait, you'll see."

well said...

About public executions.... In the early nineties, a public execution was set to take place here at our court house on the front lawn. They even had the platform built. This was at the request of the death row inmate..... At the last minute, he decided he wanted lethal injection instead-- and was granted.

JK-- How could everything be wrong?? I understand from your previous posts that you don't agree with religious stuff, but surely you don't think an un- disciplined kid is going to behave, do you? A kid's gotta be taught right and wrong. I'm not saying beat 'em, but somehow the message has to get accross. That's what job the parents' were given... By God or otherwise.

As us southern folk would say, Gotta whip the tar out of them youngins.. then they behave.

(I'll keep this breif, because I know it's all touchy..) Regarding religion in schools:

I consider myself to be an educated, polite, caring, responsible person. --- I'm "non-religious." --- You'd better believe that if, when I was in school, there was a respectable amount of religion present and I was forced to 'deal with it,' that I would have been a lot more violent person.

Thanks for your time.

- dosed

quote Originally posted by dosed: You'd better believe that if, when I was in school, there was a respectable amount of religion present and I was forced to 'deal with it,' that I would have been a lot more violent person.

OK I agree that students shouldn't be forced to pray or to practice anything they don't believe in, but you don't think that those who want to pray have a right to? You don't have to if that's not what you believe, but those who do have religious beliefs should have just as much right to pray as you do to not pray.

As much as I dislike discussion religion, here I go. If children are allowed to pray in schools. Children who do not believe in prayor should not be forced to. Okie them two said that. BUT, If my religion calls for me to sacrifice a bat, shouldn't I be allowed to if other children are allowed to pray? Not that I sacrifice bats.

btw, if you're wondering. my religion is none.

kids should be taught not to kill. they should also be taught to respect each other. obviously that's easier said than done, but i don't think that the bible would help in teaching not to kill. the problem is that when they are taught that it's what god wants, they then have the option of not believing in god. it's not important for this discussion whether god exists or not. what is important is that they are told that some outside entity commands it and if they choose not to believe that god exists, then they can logically reason that it's okay to kill. if god said it, but god doesn't exist, why should they follow the rules? whether god exists in reality is unimportant because theie logic is based on whether god exists in their heads.
kids should be taught that killing is wrong by using human standards. ingrain in their little brains when they're fresh out of the womb that people don't kill people. make them understand the consequences of a society where it's okay for people to kill each other. immanual kant had a pretty good way of going about it. try explaining things in deontological terms. try explaining that if it were accceptable for peopel to kill each other when they're pissed off, everyone would eventually kill each other and there would be no society.
the other problem with humans is that we're inherently curious. we very rarely accept orders without a reason. we want to know why. the only explanation the bible gives as to why we shouldn't kill each other is because god commands it and we'll go to hell. kids need to be taught to respect each other and not to hurt each other, but they need to be given an explanation as to why they should or shouldn't do something. ever notice how kids always ask "why" when you tell them something. don't just dismiss that, use it to make them understand.
like i said, whether god exists or not is not at issue here. the human psyche is inherently not "wired" to deal with the way the bible commands things. even if the bible were in schools i doubt there would be much of a difference. look at elizabeth hudson. an 8th grader who wanted to be a nun, to help people. then, for some reason she decided to take a .22 to school and shoot the head cheerleader in the shoulder because she was picking on her. being a devout christian didn't seem to help her.
the problem is that the bible only teaches that god's opinion matters. naturally, why should people care what each other think if only god's opinion matters? people need to understand that what other people think DOES matter. plain and simple.

I think we should bring back lashings.. seriously. You do something wrong, you get a certain number of lashes... how can you have punishment if it's not cruel and unusual? I know I'd be one hell of a straight arrow...

Personaly, my view is parents who dont give a damn are the sole cause. I see kids I know who are only 16 or 17 in the parking lot next to my house at 3am on weeknites, drinking beer and jammin. When I was a kid I had to be home by dark except 11 pm weekends.When an adult corrected me, even as a senior in HS, I said yes sir and stopped doing what i was doing. Now they say f**k you azzhole. Im not saying all parents are bad, but what I see is an awful lot of them that suck at it. We have a 11 pm curfew in Columbus for anyone under 18 whos not going home from work----thats a joke !!

if a kid says f**ck you.. or f**k off.. then as standard said, bring back some lashing.. whip the sh!ttles out of the kid. It aint punishment unless the person is being punished. I'm sorry but I dont believe 'quiet time' is punishment. Let the kid think about what he/she did while the tears are a rollin. Someone explain to me why that would be a bad idea? Does it teach kids violence, NO. It teaches the child if you do something wrong, or something you were told NOT to do. Then you will be hurt. Works in my mind.

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Galen - 1988 Hawaiian Orchid Coupe - Sunroof, shaved emblems, more to come..
Spinrpg.com - Free URL & e-mail Forwarding

AMEN !!!!!

To me if kids do things cause of TV violence or vilence anywhere they were already fucd....Im into violence alot, blowing thngs up, hunting plan ol shotting things...But im ok..I a nice guy humerous and good to get along with (cept ***** ass ex, but wont go there)Yet I havnt killed anyone..Oh well, just my opinion, it doesnt count

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Loki
ICQ# 16477998
www.cox-internet.com/fiero !!!UPDATED!!!

well, beating kids when they break the rules sounds like a dandy plan. too bad it'll mess up their minds. it will. period. dr.spock wasn't full of it. what you guys haave mentioned thus far is abuse, adn abuse seldom leads to anything other than more abuse. there is, however, a line between discipline and abuse.
what you have to understand is that if yuo' are going to use force to discipline children, they have to know why they are being disciplined in the first place, and they also hav eto be taught that force is not acceptable in all situations, and in what situations force is acceptable. if kids are just taught to beat someone when that someone does something they don't like, then corporal punishment will be as effective as anything else we've tried- meaning it won't be.
just because you were spanked when you were little doens't mean that it's automatically the answer. if you managed to turn out normal and were punished like that when you were little, then your parents are more intelligent that you probably give them credit for. my parents spanked me when i was little, but they also explained why they were doing it, and why whatever it was that i had done was wrong. it's called negative reinforcement.
if you just beat a kid whenever he does something wrong, he will grow up to just beat people for no reason. you need to give them something with which to associate the beating. the lesson is learned through the explanation, the emphasis on the importance of the lesson is learned through the infliction of pain. they learn that they will not be hurt if they simply follow the rules, but they have to be filled in on what the rules are first and why they should follow them.
please think very carefully before you hit a kid. kids learn SOMETHING from every experience, whether you teach them or not. that's why you have to explain things to them. if they're going to learn something anyway, make sure that you have some control over just what it is that they learn.

OK, I have a few things to say. I think that First, There is a world of difference between discipline using spankings and abuse of a child. Taking a child into the back and beating the hell out of them is abuse. If you start when they are young 5-6 years old, You just need to swat their butts just once (not even hard) As long as they understand it is a punishment it will teach them what is wrong/right. The problem is that discipline needs to be taught early enough so that they understand.
Second, The real problem with the shootings (In my opinion) Is the parents and schools.
I don't know exactly how it is today, but back when I was in school (elementry) If you got out of line, the ruler came out and you were "adjusted" back in line. As near as I can tell, this has stopped. Teachers are afraid to discipline kids in the class for fear of lawsuits. Also when the kids do something bad, the parents don't believe the teacher and think their little one cannot possibly be a bad child. I have seen this at my sons kindergarden class. The parents complaining that it's somehow the teachers fault their child mis-behaved. Now with it starting at such a young age, the child learns that it's the teachers fault (says the parents) The respect of the school just went out the window.
It use to be that children respected teachers and schools. Now you have the kids thinking it's a place to "hang" for a while with your clique. Yes some children are excited about learning and respect the teachers. But the kid who doesn't care because he was taught it's the teacher/schools fault, now gets mad at someone or is teased and ridiculed, grabs a gun and shoots. I was looking thru the message boards on the last shooting in California. Someone posted a statement that it doesn't happen in europe. I think that is because the schools are held in much higher regard than here. The students overseas are taught at a very young age to repect the teachers and schools.
I think it is time that the teachers and parents get together to solve this problem we have. If not, we may see more headlines of school shootings as an increasing problem.

If you read the history of these children most of them come from loving parents. There were exceptions.
I don't think it is logical to assume the parents are to blame.
When children are pelted with violence and fame the propensity is increased, this much is proven.
They should do what I did, when you get picked on make a friend that is bigger than that guy.
These shootings should not be broadcasted it only perpetuates the idea.

First of all, I was not 'spanked' when I was a child alot. I was a lil, and looked how messed up I am. My three older brothers were 'spanked' alot more than me, and they live normal lives. and for you 'Mr Give ya kids an explination' .. I wasn't infering that you just beat the living hell out of the kid and be quiet about it. Its pretty obvious you tell the kid what it did wrong. not just say "well son, I'm gonna beat the sh!t out of ya, but its none ya business why". You make the child associate breaking the rules/laws with being painfully punished. And if you go and kill someone .. Then more than likely you are going to be painfully punished. Which you should be. Alot of parents now a days are soft, which makes their kids turn out to be very unruley. heh.

Just to make sure all of ya'll know, I do not promote abuse, child abusers should be slapped around alot. heh, But parent abusing children should be as well. And there are just as many parent abusing children as there are child abusing parents.

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Galen - 1988 Hawaiian Orchid Coupe - Sunroof, shaved emblems, more to come..
Spinrpg.com - Free URL & e-mail Forwarding

Deuteronomy 21 lines 18 to 21
if a man have a stubborn & rebellious son which will not obey. then take him to the elders of the city and say to them he will not obey our voice he is a gluttion and a drunkard.
and all the men shall stone him with stones that he die:so shalt thou put evil away from you.
why is this good and holy to kill your son?
respect must be earned not demaned.
any one can pray anytime they want anywhere
only groupe lead praying is banned.
school shooting is not about god or lack of god in school. itis about nuts and mential illness not god.

at a local church school a trainee monk killed a nun last week. So whats the deal on thou shallnot kill and praying in school???
it didn't work for them, and won't for you.

quote Originally posted by ray b: at a local church school a trainee monk killed a nun last week. So whats the deal on thou shallnot kill and praying in school??? it didn't work for them, and won't for you.

The above has NOTHING to do with religion. It is just to demonstrate how over time we have been told what we can and cannot do by persons wanting to change the world for their own benefit. These changes show a POSSIBLE cause for the way kids act today. Not saying any one of the above caused it, but that the sum of the many MAY have.
Also your posts that the shootings have been committed buy "nuts and mentally ill" children doesn't make sense. What do you think that there is a epidemic of "nuts"? The way your posts read you seem to blame the worlds problems on religion and mental illness. As for the monk trainee, What does the school shootings and the monk have in common? Nobody is saying that school prayer will correct the problem. If you plan on further posts please take the time to read and comprehend what the subject matter is.

Terry: Yes, i DO believe people should be able to have abortions whenever they need it, and I Believe that schools SHOULD pass out condoms whenver needed. I believe that punishment is NOT the answer.. Teachers and principals should NOT be allowed to administer discipline, and kids shouldn't be physically disciplined either. Frankly, you seem like the type of person we do NOT need in this world, and we should send you back to medieval times where you can administer barbaric treatment. If I were to rob a store, get caught, put in the slammer, and was banged up the ass for a year or two, sure it would deter me from doing it again. But thats not what we are talking about. I believe there are lots of stupid people in this world, such as the pope, who is anti birth-control, and it is that sort of thinking that has put us in the state we are in. It is your closed mindedness that is not only part of the problem, but the whole of it.

the trainee monk was 17 years old and a student at the church school were he kill a nun teacher, knife not gun was used but seems to me to be on subject of school violence and religion.

sad but true that thumper's are both opposed to birth control and abortion. even withdrawl
is a sin, see Onan in bible.

I apologize for sounding harsh, just wanted to state my point.

quote Originally posted by ray b: the trainee monk was 17 years old and a student at the church school were he kill a nun teacher, knife not gun was used but seems to me to be on subject of school violence and religion. sad but true that thumper's are both opposed to birth control and abortion. even withdrawl is a sin, see Onan in bible.

For someone who downgrades the bible thumpers and religion, you sure know alot of quotes from the bible.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 03-30-2001).]

Maybe it's because he knows what he's talking about. Plus, EVERYONE knows dumb quotes from the bible..

Wow, I was being sarcastic Johnny, but if you really feel that way, that makes you an idiot. Geeze, you talk about my mind being closed, why don't you try opening your's. Look at what has changed in the past 30 years. Now, look at where we are. If you can't see the cause is others with your mind set, then not only is your mind closed, your eyes are also closed. When kids have kids without any worry about consequences, that is a problem. When nobody teaches that it is a good thing to abstain from sex, that is a problem. When parents, principals and teachers can not enforce any discipline, that is a problem. Now, smart guy, how can anything good come out of these problems? My guess is that it would be-you-. You are a product of a society that meets all of the above. You are the problem. Maybe it's a good thing your mom did not get a condom at school or get an abortion. Then again, the world might be a better place if she had of.

i was school chaplin in 7th grade read bible to class every day to start homeroom in 63.
my dad forced me to go to sunday school too.
my oppsition to christians came from reading the bible and seeing how it was used to suport segragation and war in viet-nam [kill a commi for christ].
evil done by selfrighttious christians is still evil. and they do alot of evil study their history not their self rightious BS .

Terry, I take back my apology. You sir, are a piece of **** . Kids should NOT be physically disciplined. And kids should be taught to abstain, but is it going to work? No you idiot! Think about it. So you MIGHT AS WELL have birth control. You are perhaps the biggest idiot I have talked to in a long time, and if we lived in "your" world, I hope you would be beaten in front of a large crowd. Btw, do your kids tell you They hate you a lot? I would imagine so.

[This message has been edited by JohnnyK (edited 03-30-2001).]