quote Originally posted by My7Fieros: For those of you who dont believe in God, well, thats your belief (or lack of)...what a sad existance. None the less, I can respect your opinion..just dont belittle those of us who do believe in God. Im assuming Gixxer is Jewish, I dont see anybody bashing him....I certainly wouldnt. Just respect peoples opinion. [This message has been edited by My7Fieros (edited 03-08-2001).]

So I lead a sad existence? But in the same sentence you said you respect the opinions of non-believers. That doesn't sound very respectful. Think before you post it.

hitler was a christian and the pope never took any real action to save the jews or others in WW2.
read real history not revised BS.
if two tribes fight and each is of a
differtant sect why is religon not to blame?
learn about roots of white christian schools in the south after deseg. laws.
their the ones pushing to make creation a school subject for all kids including mine.

The Vatican denounced the entire war. But they stayed neutral. They had no influence on either side. It was the condition of their neutrality.
I have no idea where you read your "real history" but as usual it is inaccurate.
As for what children learn in school, Don't you think it is better for them to learn all opinions/views instead of a censored version?
Most people make better decisions and have a better outlook on life when they can view things from many viewpoints. If everyone would take time to see things from other points of view, we wouldn't have many narrow minded views and opinions. Such as your views.

quote Originally posted by ray b: hitler was a christian

Mahatma Ghandi was a serial killer, Mother Theresa was the Anti-Christ, and Queen Elizabeth is a drug pusher for the CIA. Ted Bundy wins the Nobel Peace Prize. Welcome to the wacky BizarroWorld of rayb!

------------------
Loud Pipes Save Lives!

bundy said he was a christian.
Q liz no, Q vicky yes, see china opium wars.
hitler was roman cathlic. sorry but true.
don't know anything about mom t.
but do know that same group white southern
christians who said no to intergration and built white only schools are now pushing the
creation BS in to public schools.
as were most of G W Bush's fans were for segergation not long ago.

Yep JonnyK, Stimpy and I are just here to insault you. Hmmm makes sense to me(Somebody needs to lay off of the brain candy).

BTW- Hitler was a genious. Maybe a little nuts, but he was a genious. Look at what he did, he took over three quarters of the world just by using excellent speaking skills and minipulation. I think that is brilliant. And no, I do not agree with his beliefs, nor am I a Nazi.

And Ray, take you head out of your @ss!

[This message has been edited by KnightRyder31 (edited 03-10-2001).]

Sorry Ray, but as a southern educator, I resent that last comment. Why should we have to teach the theory of evolution as the only possibility? After all, it is still just a theory. Why can you say that creationism is bs and not allowed in schools as another possible theory? What are you afraid of? Maybe someone might have a soul saving from something they learned at school and decide not to kill their classmates because they have learned that there is a higher power to answer to? I guess that would be terrible if we taught morals and decency in a public school. Imagine how insane it would be to teach kids to honor their father and mother, respect adults, not commit such trivial acts as adultry, or even thou shalt not kill. Okay, maybe that is not creationism, but it is part of the package.

Good one Cooter.

Damn, I need to read the O/T section more often. Philospohy and religion are two of my college degree studies.

If we can just go back to the original topic for a second:

If we evolved from a "big bang" of dust, gas, and ice.......Where did the dust, gas, and ice come from?

How can we come from nothing? Simple mathmatics.......nothing, creates nothing

Some entity had to create the dust/gas/ice.

The probability of evolution is just NOT comprehendible to me. Kinda like me taking my watch apart, putting it in a paper bag, and shaking the bag for the next hundred million years. In the end, I'll have a fully functionable watch? NEVER.

Ok, if I were evolved, that means I'm free to change at ANY time. Boy, i could sure use that second pair of hands anytime now. Boy, Its pretty cold here too, my fur coat can start growing anytime now. Eyes in the back of my head. Yep, could use those too.

BTW, the earth isn't hundreds of millions of years old either. Try more like 8-10 thousand. But thats another O/T topic

------------------
5 Indy pace Cars
84 T-top
86 SE V6 153K (daily)
86 GT red
86 GT Yellow ASAP
86 GT w/4:10 tranny
86 GT 3.4 Pearl White T-top
88 Coupe
88 Formula 5 speed (soon)
2 88 GT's (twins)

But......
"Time is my most precious and most perishable of all my possessions."

because if the camel's nose is in the tent
the rest of him will soon be in the tent too.why do they want to pray in school, same reason as creation BS to get nose in tent.
but history of religion should be taught all of it not just the begining but the ways and means it used to control the goverments and others.will they give equal time to all religions or just one??
morals can be seprated from christian values
as most are about doing the right thing and not about sex that christians are hungup on.
rules about adults having sex is not morals
but about control.
what about bush plan to give my tax $$$$ to
the christian schools think the rasta's will get some of that $$$ or the rainbow children??? or moslem's,or buddhist?? well i don't think so.
the $$$ will go to bush's buddies not mine.
the same ones who built the white only christian schools sure they are not white only now but they were not long ago.like bob jones U that bush spoke at.

As usual, you make no sense in the drivel that you type.

Quote from rayb:
morals can be seprated from christian values as most are about doing the right thing and not about sex that christians are hungup on.
rules about adults having sex is not morals
but about control.

Now first you state morals are separate from christian values, Then you claim that christian's have a hang up about sex. (??) Then you state that rules about adults having sex is control. (??)
Is it possible for you to have a complete thought and actually put it in a complete sentence? I'm can't even figure out the "pray in school" and "creation BS" thing. You say both are to "get nose in tent"
But you never make your point. Then you go on to say "all religion" should be taught and how it controls governments and others.

I think you need to up the voltage on your shock treatments.

I believe the earth is A LOT older than 8-10 thousand. I don't know what college your going to, but get your money back. A "soul saving" from learning creation? Some kids will see the light and not go on a shooting rampage? Man..

Nevermind

[This message has been edited by Tigger (edited 03-13-2001).]

I don't think he knows what he's talking about.
He's just rambling on and on to make him self sound smarter, what a joke.

I don't atack member's who post atacks at me,
please stick to points made and not your take on my mental state as you have done.
you don't know the facts about your religion
learn them and you will see truth not BS in my posts.
a right wing of consevative christian republicans has a plan to take over our schools in action now, creationisum is a part of this plan.as is school prayer.
part of freedom of religion is freedom from
religion.

Knightryder: Yuo weren't always an ******* on this board were you? (Oh yeah! I forgot your anti japanese posts).. nevermind

rayb,

Funny you should mention one of the rights we have in the US is this particular post. Since this country was initiated by the Declaration of Independence in order to ensure these rights... AND the Declaration of Independence states that these rights were "endowed by our Creator"...

If there is no creator... then this country was founded on a bad premise... therefore, there are no inalienable rights...

Kind of a catch 22 situation, huh???

you don't know the facts about your religion
learn them and you will see truth not BS in my posts.

You have no idea what my religion is or any facts about it. You are stereotyping all religions into one. This is usually a sign of predjudice. Which your posts appear to portray often.

a right wing of consevative christian republicans has a plan to take over our schools in action now, creationisum is a part of this plan.as is school prayer.
part of freedom of religion is freedom from
religion.

Funny thing, When I was growing up there was prayer in schools, Then the prayers were stopped by people who wanted their own religions to be represented. Their argument was that it was wrong for the children to pray in one religion when they were another. Now there is no prayer in school and we have children shooting others at school. We have violent youth gangs, drugs being passed around schools all the way down to the elemetry schools. Maybe adding religion back into the schools may deter some child from borrowing a gun and killing fellow students. Even if only one child is deterred I would consider it a success. There is way too much violence in schools today. It is obvious that the present deterrents are not working.
Maybe if the child had faith in a religion it would lead to faith in him/herself and decide not to kill those around them.
As for your belief that all religions are BS, Maybe you should actually read something about all religions. Instead of blindly condemming all religions.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 03-10-2001).]

have any of you ever read gods laws in old testiment
please do and tell me how many are good idea now and shoud be in our laws now.like the one about beat a bad kid to death if he diss his dad?? or don't eat a pig or lobster as both on ban by god list.
this great land was founded on many bad ideas like slaves and treatment of natives.
some have changed some less some more. change in laws why we have amendments and congress.
but look out the christian are out to take over our public schools now and creatision is part of plan. as is bush plans with vouchers now but more to come later.
I wonder how many diffrent creation myths
will they want to teach all, some, or only their christian one and how much time to each???
praying in school willnot save anyone who is nuts as religion will not cure mental illness. evil never was stoped before when prayer was made in school like in 1963
c. whitman who was shot when on a towwer at a school in texas was a christian but killed many.

[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 03-10-2001).]

There you go combining different religions into one. Now you say this country was built on bad idea's. I don't see you changing anything. The best part is if you don't like this country you can leave!

Now you are saying:
praying in school willnot save anyone who is nuts as religion will not cure mental illness
Which looks like you mean that the recent school shootings were done by children who have a mental illness? These children were not "nuts" they were abused by peers, had low self-esteem, and had no guidance on what to do. That is not a "mental illness". You don't really have a clue what is going on in reality do you. You can't even tell the differences of one religion to another.
Now that I see how distorted your viewpoint is, I don't think you'll ever grasp the "truth" of what is happening around you.

Hey JonnyK, heres a big LOL for you. Because no matter how much $hit you talk to me, I'll still be here to laugh in you face. And yes, I am against MOST Jap cars, but not all, so get your facts right you f'n jack@$$!
Oh and learn how to spell, genious!
Your personal attacks aren't very good, are they?

"GENIOUS" is spelled "GENIUS".
But don't mind me..(sound of whistling)...
Funny thing, Oreif, is that most religions ARE the same;
in that they try account for what happens when a person dies.
Do people have souls? What happens to them. Who created the universe.
The rest of the differences are unimportant, IMO.
Think about it, if a person has an immortal soul, there's a good chance of an afterlife.
If a person doesn't have a soul or an afterlife, death is nothingness. And that's pretty hard for the human mind to comphrehend. Not to mention, pretty gloomy.
So, there will always be room in the world for religion, the particular brand isn't important, all that it needs to do is ease peoples' minds about what they fear most.
--Fun Fact
Adams'(the first man) FIRST wife, Lilith, was created the same time as he was, out of clay. She thought that performing the you-know-what-boogy on her back was undignified, and she ran away. So God created a more compliant mate named Eve.
Eve was partial to apples, I think.
Mention of Adam, Lilith and company was made as far back as about 3,000 BC. Long before Christianity or Judaism(the epic of Gilgamesh mentions Lilith).
Check out websites, etc. on Lilith and related material. You can see that the origins of various religions become blurred together into a tangled mess. Kinda implying that in the past, people picked a god from this religion, a demon from that religion, moved across the mountains, started a new religion and town, and were happy.
Whatever makes you feel good.

rayb,

Answer this, was our society better 40 years ago, when most families had 2 parents, and most people went to church? There is no repect for life from our young people. They have been desinsitized to the value of life.

Schools are teaching them that we lucky to even be here. They are being taught, that we were amino acids, that just happen to combine and presto, here is life. We have been killing 3500 babies a day, for 28 years. The violence in movies and TV, makes it no big deal, that someone lost their life. These things didn't happen overnight. We have been feeding this to our kids for 30 years.

As for the "white christian schools" trying to push their values on everyone else. They or any Christian, can tell you of the plan of salvation, and you can do 2 things. Either except it or deny it. Everyone knows the condition of their souls. Whether. they are ready to stand before God or not. I judge no one. I am responsible for the condition of my soul. No one else's.

I hope that your hatred of things spiritual, goes away or the hurts that someone did to you are healed.

quote Originally posted by ray b: not by their words but by their deeds you will know them.the best bible quote ever.

quote bundy said he was a christian. hitler was roman cathlic

Citing Bundy, Hitler, etc. as examples didn't go very far toward proving your point. Take your own advice.

quote morals can be seprated from christian values as most are about doing the right thing

By what standard do you define "the right thing" without Christian values (or values from whatever religion floats your boat)?

quote rules about adults having sex is not morals but about control.

Whether or not you ascribe to Christianity, you can not deny that under Christian morals a society works very well. How often have you seen adultery NOT destroy a marriage/family? I see people get all kinds of screwed up from having sex when they shouldn't, regardless of their marital status.

quote have any of you ever read gods laws in old testiment

Yes, I have. Have you ever the passage in which Jesus says words to the effect of "I can not to nullify the law, but to complete it"? The Bible must be considered as a whole, and can seem quite strange when taken out of context.

quote like the one about beat a bad kid to death if he diss his dad??

Reference?

gixxer good posts
bengal well 50's were a special time that won't come back ever again. but only if you white male and in to the right look and act. reds, gays, beats, blacks, mex, or any other odd man was out of luck back then.i liked the 60's much more fun and less boring and better sex.but as to baby killing that is not your biss as law is clear and the anti-A
people are the worst kind of thumper as they want in to others lifes to control some poor girls fate in responce to a farrie tale that so very very very wrong and evil to the max use of bombs that show christian's true nature to remove and outlaw choice not only for them but for all. right to life is EVIL plot to remove option that some need. i want as many choices as can be had if needed not no choiceat all.sad but funny that same christian's are allso againts birth control
please wake up soon or earth will be to crowded to live on.
oreif not all i said was at you, your not that inportant as you think some of it was in answer to others like bit about this country founding was a answer you didn't read i guess.BTW your late on the love it or leave sh*t that should be fight to change it or lose it.
will morals are not christian only laws but come from many places and times and can change as needed. romans thought they had high morals read their ideas or greeks plays.
can't find quote about kids but it is in bible for sure as bill marr talked about it on tv show not long ago.

[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 03-11-2001).]

Knightryder: Umm, it's GENIUS, you idiot, not Genious, and Johnny, not Jonny (check your spelling there buddy). Obviously, by your "jap-crap" talk, you know NOTHING about cars. Maybe you should do a little research before you shoot off your redneck/stupid mouth. Think before you post. Althought some people here don't agree with me when it comes to cars,I'm sure most, if not all, think you are a complete idiot. (it's japanese, thereford, it's crap!). Idiot

quote Originally posted by ray b: but as to baby killing that is not your biss as law is clear and the anti-A people are the worst kind of thumper as they want in to others lifes to control some poor girls fate in responce to a farrie tale that so very very very wrong and evil to the max

What about some poor baby's fate?

quote use of bombs that show christian's true nature to remove and outlaw choice not only for them but for all.

What you said above about knowing them by their deeds rather than words applies here, except that you are twisting it. Using bombs and other terrorist tactics in that situation is obviously an un-Christian deed, not a deed that shows Christians are evil.

quote will morals are not christian only laws but come from many places and times and can change as needed. romans thought they had high morals read their ideas or greeks plays.

In your own mind, do you think that you are an immoral son of a B@#$% ?
Asking the Romans whether or not the Romans are moral will yield a predictable answer.
Are morals interchangeable? When I want to do something that isn't allowed by my current set of morals, can I just get a different set? Might as well not have any as follow that philosophy.
By what standard do you judge whether or not an ideological precept makes a good "moral"?

quote can't find quote about kids but it is in bible for sure as bill marr talked about it on tv show not long ago.

I assume you mean Bill Maher, of Politically Incorrect? Do you believe everything you see on TV?

I'm beginning to see that you are impervious to logical rational arguments. As these are the only kind I know how to make, I will withdraw from this "debate".

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ray b:

bengal well 50's were a special time that won't come back ever again. but only if you white male and in to the right look and act. reds, gays, beats, blacks, mex, or any other odd man was out of luck back then.i liked the 60's much more fun and less boring and better sex.but as to baby killing that is not your biss as law is clear and the anti-A
people are the worst kind of thumper as they want in to others lifes to control some poor girls fate in responce to a farrie tale that so very very very wrong and evil to the max use of bombs that show christian's true nature to remove and outlaw choice not only for them but for all. right to life is EVIL plot to remove option that some need. i want as many choices as can be had if needed not no choiceat all.sad but funny that same christian's are allso againts birth control
please wake up soon or earth will be to crowded to live on.

As for the pro-life vs choice debate, the only choice anyone truly has, is to have sex or not. After that, it is resposibilty. I have lived with the aftermath of a wrong choice. My late wife had an abortion when she was 17. She never recovered emotionaly. She told me there was a hole in her heart that was ripped from her when she gave up her child. She never forgave herself, but she knew that God did. She is now reunited with that child in heaven. I know, without a shadow of doubt, that she is there. The peace and comfort, that God has given my family, is the only reason that we are making it through this difficult time.

I know that I will never change your mind rayb. I just pray that the Lord reveals Himself to you in a powerful way. He is real. He is awesome and He is alive.

This is my last response on this subject.

Peace.

Bill
86GT 3800 II S/C

I'm sorry, I had a couple of typo's, fluke.
Boy JOHNNYK, I hate to say it, but your attacks on me aren't getting much better.
I may not be a mechanic, but I do know somethings about cars. I'm a red neck now?
HAHAHA!

Yes, you are a redneck, if all cars that aren't domestic are "jap crap". It shows you are a complete moron.

No, like I said, read the facts.
I don't like a lot of Jap cars, but I do like some of them.
And I like a lot of Euro cars also.

Will,

I know the Declaration of Independence is not legally binding. I was pointing out the irony of atheists claiming a right that was theoretically granted to them by a creator that they don't believe exist.

I'll also bet the percentage of true atheist drops dramatically on board an airplane in free fall.

I want to apologize for this subject.
I shouldn't have done this, it was a stupid idea.
It started as kind of a joke, and turned into another war. I should have known that this would happen. I am the cause of it, and I take full responsibility for my actions.
And I want to especially apologize to JohnnyK and Ray. I really turned into an a$$hole. I am truley sorry for offending either of you. I just wanted you guys to know that I realize that I was the prick.

Good show, KR31. I'm now staying out of religious threads.

Thanks Cheever2, I just feel bad about causing this mess.

It's all good. Religious battles make life worth living.

So no hard feelings?
Just so you know, I do realize it was my fault. I brought this on myself.
I hope we can be cool with each other, and not enemies.

no i don't blame the christian posters here
for the people killed in the past or other crimes the church has done but if they think the church is so moral and right they need to be reminded that it ain't so. and never has been so. pray for peace or what ever you want to but don't pray for me or try to convert me RESPECT MY RIGHTS TO DISAGREE.
KNOW THE PAST TO PREVENT REACURANCE OF EVIL.
give peace a chance END THE DRUG WAR AND LET MY PEOPLE GO.