With talks of higher gas prices, and the few electric Fiero threads I've been reading it's really piquing my interest. The few I've seen cost about 10k...not really cheap or really worth it at this point, yet I saw on one electric Fiero conversion site stating "as low as $500"...umm how?

So how cheap could you convert a Fiero to electric with say a range of 50 miles? (25 one way is a fair commuter distance)??

I'm no expert, but I think a very viable budget for an electric conversion would be in the ball-park of at least $3k-$4k and then rising to the 10k figure you mentioned depending on what materials are purchased. I don't exactly see how one could completely convert a car for $500. You have to consider that there are other things that have to be done in light of running an electric conversion. Installation of different gauges are a necessity to monitor the current being generated. The suspension, braking components, and tires have to be in extraordinary working order due to the increased weight which can increase braking distances and vehicle workload.

quote Originally posted by Fiero84Freak: I'm no expert, but I think a very viable budget for an electric conversion would be in the ball-park of at least $3k-$4k and then rising to the 10k figure you mentioned depending on what materials are purchased. I don't exactly see how one could completely convert a car for $500. You have to consider that there are other things that have to be done in light of running an electric conversion. Installation of different gauges are a necessity to monitor the current being generated. The suspension, braking components, and tires have to be in extraordinary working order due to the increased weight which can increase braking distances and vehicle workload.

Yeah that's exactly what I was thinking as when I saw that $500 figure thrown on by the one site I mentioned I was just wondering HOW unless you got everything free which doesn't count. On a plus side after doing more reading in Illinois if the swap (new parts, not used from individuals) is purchased for the swap they'll give you up to $4,000 (if you spend 5k as it's 80% or 4k whichever is lower). So I suppose if I could pull off a 5k build it'd really cost me 1k.....

Any more input?

I figure about $12.00. Then the extension cord pops out. Push it back.

There are other little miniscule things to account for.

You probably know that standard brakes on a car actually rely on intake vacuum to operate. Yes there is actual brake fluid, but when you remove the actual engine, it no longer has the pressure it needs to operate the brakes correctly. Thus on most all electric conversions you have to come up with a new way (typically changing over to an electric unit) to ensure the brakes actually work.

The drive motor would have to be adapted to the transmission. You would retain whatever stock transmission your Fiero already has. I couldn't give an educated answer on what a better transmission would be, but considering that automatics typically get less gas mileage than manuals, I'd take an eduated guess and say that a manual transmission would likely use less power to operate and not suffer from as much drivetrain power loss as an automatic, thus should give slightly extended range. Again, someone with more knowledge can probably correct me.

Additionally, people are going to build EVs in many multiple ways. As technologies become more readily available and people go through trial and error, they weed out wasteful spending and thus most builds are at least a good gauge as to what is not only involved but what one would spend. I would personally study and eye the builds that people actually have to spend money on. If you're looking at the lower cost and/or "freebie" builds, they've likely either got good deals somewhere or cut corners, and probably are electrical gurus. Seeing amateurs build them and go through the trial and error situations give a more realistic view of what to expect.

Fiero makes a poor choice for EV due to heavy weight and layout. Even converted with the best LiFePO4 batteries and store-bought motors and controllers it will probably be difficult to get that range for under $10K.

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Bring back civility and decorum!

It's possible to understand someone's point of view without accepting it. It's possible to disagree with someone without being rude and nasty about it. Sure it's hard, but nothing worth doing is ever easy, is it?

GM does it by spending an extra $40,000 over the price of a regular car. Of course the government gives them about 1/2 of that back if its sold. Customer picks up the other $20,000. So, you end up with a $12,000 vehicle that you paid $45,000 for. Even then though, the government will still give you a rebate for buying it (AKA bribe).

Then after you've spent the money, how much did you spend for the cheap batteries and how many cycles are they good for?

Honda Insights for less than $9k
http://motors.shop.ebay.com..._dmpt=US_Cars_Trucks

[This message has been edited by 30+mpg (edited 03-15-2011).]

BAD IDEA! way to many people think a full electric car is the future. i really dont see where there common sense is. think about it. the cost of batteries that last about 5 years max. thats like replacing a new motor in a car every 5 years. thats stupid! not only that but the thought of people saying its much better for the ozone. well where do we get electric from????? a plug in the wall.....where does that electric come from... a power plant... thats the key word is power plant that many look over. not only that but look to see what your electric bill will be... not a good idea. it would be cool to see at a show but to many ate blinded and think wow its electric its free power.

To the original poster and anyone else, Do what you want to do, not what others tell you, and when they call you stupid because of your choices just remember, they're just bystanders and ultimately it's your choice what you want to do, not theirs. Ignore the anti-EV folks that seem to follow these threads around, they don't have a dog in this hunt.

Edit to add:
And to Ruffy, most everything you posted has been debunked already, your information is obsolete. Read through the various hybrid and EV threads here and follow the links posted to learn correct up-to-date information.
------------------
Bring back civility and decorum!

It's possible to understand someone's point of view without accepting it. It's possible to disagree with someone without being rude and nasty about it. Sure it's hard, but nothing worth doing is ever easy, is it?

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 03-16-2011).]

I looked into this conversion myself a while back as I have read that the Fiero actually makes a great ev. One thing to remember is that like most other conversions, swaps and builds there are always tons of extra costs that crop up along the way. Sometimes even when talking to someone who has done an ev conversion, the builder themselves doesn't remember all the costs. I have asked different guys what the total cost was and they said it was $XXX for the motor, $XXX for the controller, $XXXX for the batteries, etc. Then I asked how much was the charger, and it was like, "Oh yeah $XXXX for that", and I asked what did you do about a heater and what runs your 12v accessories and all of a sudden, all kinds of other numbers start getting thrown around. It's not like anyone is trying to hide anything, I just think we all sometimes fool ourselves about what we have sunk into these kinds of projects.

Bottom line (and this is from a company who builds ev's for people as thier only business): "If you want an ev as an interesting hobby or want to do your part for the environment, maybe an ev is for you. If you are looking to save money over driving a gas vehicle, you will be very disappointed."

can't be that expensive to buy an old prius and put the fiero body on it ;x

Old Priuses hold their resale value very well, another plus when compared to other cars but a negative when you're looking for a used one for cheap.

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Bring back civility and decorum!

It's possible to understand someone's point of view without accepting it. It's possible to disagree with someone without being rude and nasty about it. Sure it's hard, but nothing worth doing is ever easy, is it?

I am not a huge fan of electric vehicles, but can see where they would be benefitial.

At work we have a fleet of electric fork trucks that can run around the building for 8 hrs before needing to change out their battery pack. While they are far from fast (probably 10 - 15 mph), the trucks weigh 8000 lbs and 50% of the time they are also carrying a 2000 lb skid. The battery packs for them are about $5000 and last up to 5 years (climate controlled environment). I am not quite sure of all the design parameters differences between the fork trucks and automobiles, but there must be something quite significant. My guess is making them reach 65 mph is a major drain on range as well as the wind resistance for that speed.

If I was to build an electric vehicle, I would probably start with some retired fork lifts and cap the speed to 45 mph to maximize the range.

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: If I was to build an electric vehicle, I would probably start with some retired fork lifts and cap the speed to 45 mph to maximize the range.

Uggg, just stay of the highway! I don't care which lane your in, your gonna get killed or kill someone going that slow... Gotta make it AT LEAST 55 mph...

quote Originally posted by ALJR: Uggg, just stay of the highway! I don't care which lane your in, your gonna get killed or kill someone going that slow... Gotta make it AT LEAST 55 mph...

EV-1 could 80 no problem, and that speed was set in the computer to increase range. The Tesla goes faster than that easily. The Volt also. But yes, wind resistance is a real issue since it increases four times faster than speed. For a conversion with a heavy chassis that's moderately aerodynamic like the Fiero setting the top speed to the legal speed limit will give you better range.

------------------
Bring back civility and decorum!

It's possible to understand someone's point of view without accepting it. It's possible to disagree with someone without being rude and nasty about it. Sure it's hard, but nothing worth doing is ever easy, is it?

i was reading threw a thread awhile ago. someone installed some electric motors upfront and had the front wheels drive. and if you need more power. you still have the engine in the back for highway use.
i thought that would be nice.

if i wanted to increase mpg and save alot of money. i would swap out my 2.8 and put in the duke or a newer 4cly engine. and electric motors upfront to drive the front wheel for in the city kind of driving. like going to the store. or to work.

how many amps, volts does it take for thos big electric motors need to run to be able to be effective for a car?

quote Originally posted by joshh44: i was reading threw a thread awhile ago. someone installed some electric motors upfront and had the front wheels drive. and if you need more power. you still have the engine in the back for highway use. i thought that would be nice. if i wanted to increase mpg and save alot of money. i would swap out my 2.8 and put in the duke or a newer 4cly engine. and electric motors upfront to drive the front wheel for in the city kind of driving. like going to the store. or to work. how many amps, volts does it take for thos big electric motors need to run to be able to be effective for a car?

That's a fairly complicated question, starting with your definition of "effective". If you mean being able to outrun a Corvette, like White Zombie can, it's a lot. The EV-1 had around 130-ish horsepower and could to an 8-second 0-60mph run easily, but it had 26 batteries and sub-100 mile range. For around town city driving half that many batteries and power would probably work fine. Remember, it takes power to accelerate mass; most people ditch the motor because it's a good way to loose 1,000 lbs of the weight of a car. All of the motor-related stuff on a Fiero probably makes up 1/3 of the total mass.

quote Fiero Finale:With talks of higher gas prices, and the few electric Fiero threads I've been reading it's really piquing my interest. The few I've seen cost about 10k...not really cheap or really worth it at this point, yet I saw on one electric Fiero conversion site stating "as low as $500"...umm how? So how cheap could you convert a Fiero to electric with say a range of 50 miles? (25 one way is a fair commuter distance)??

Time for some simple math (real simple)

Lets say the 50 mile trip takes 2 gallons and gas is $4/gallon.
A week (5 working days) would require $40 worth of gas, a year, $2000.

Also let's say you could get electricity for free. 0 cents per KWH.

If your conversion cost $10,000, it would take 5 years to just recover your investment not accounting for inflation or the Present Value of money.

At the end of 5 years, would you need to replace the batteries?

If you have to pay for electricity the recovery period would be longer.

If you could convert for $500 (good luck with that), the payback would be less than half a year

[This message has been edited by 30+mpg (edited 04-20-2012).]

The tesla also has poor performance, tranny problems, and low low range...would probably be better to make your own hydro plant and carb your engine.

Can you convert a Fiero to EV for $500? Yes you can, if you have a complete electric forklift available to salvage all the parts from AND can make your own motor adapter and mount. You will also need to fabricate battery mounts and stay with the battery's from the forklift also. You may be able to squeeze in a few extra used deep cycle batteries from golf cart or forklift re-conditioners if you a few bucks left.

Will you be happy with the $500 conversion?. Probably not since you will only see a 30-35 mph top speed with a 10-15 mile range but you will have an EV Fiero for a budget.

The fiero chassis isn't a completely poor choice for EV conversions but there are far better choices out there. Most quality (good mph and range) conversions will cost you much, much more $$$.

quote Originally posted by Hockaday: The tesla also has poor performance, tranny problems, and low low range...would probably be better to make your own hydro plant and carb your engine.

Tesla motor's published specs on the Roadster is 0-60 in less than 4 seconds and a top speed of 125 mph, hardly "poor performance". Tesla motors also published that their Roadster's average range is 245 miles, which is good for an EV and not bad compared to a gas car. Heck, my Fiero's average range on a tank is less than 245 miles. The transmission problem was solved in 2008 and only applied to the first batch of transmissions they bought from another manufacturer, so your information on that is outdated.

Regarding the range issue, here's something that came from a forum discussion on real world range experience with the Tesla Roadster:



Discussion here: http://priuschat.com/forums...-roadster-range.html

From that discussion, a real world experience WRT range:

I've had a Roadster for a little over a month now. I've taken two trips over 200 miles: 210 and 250 (several other owners were with me on the second trip). I would say that the 244-mile range is possible in the real world; no weird driving habits required. But you do have to be careful to not waste anything.

When we are pushing the envelope and want to make sure we will get the full range, we put the top on, keep it under 60mph, and don't use a lot of heat, A/C or headlights. Taking the top off, turning the lights on and using a lot of heat and A/C will drop range around 10%, maybe 15%. Going faster will reduce your range as noted in the graph above. But the worst thing is accelerating quickly. If you are driving around town and take off fast from every stoplight, it is easy to drop your range by 1/3rd.

REALLY hard driving, such as at a track, can cut it in half. Or so I've heard from other owners; I have not tried it with my car.

A lot of people ask about hills; they aren't so bad. Sure you use a lot more energy going up them; but you gain the vast majority it when you go down the other side. The net amount lost is small compared to the energy it takes to push the car along at 60mph.


A last thought: In most states driving 100mph will get you arrested, thrown in jail, and your car impounded. If that's your preferred driving style then an EV is most definitely not for you.

------------------
Bring back civility and decorum!

It's possible to understand someone's point of view without accepting it. It's possible to disagree with someone without being rude and nasty about it. Sure it's hard, but nothing worth doing is ever easy, is it?

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: A last thought: In most states driving 100mph will get you arrested, thrown in jail, and your car impounded. If that's your preferred driving style then an EV is most definitely not for you.

Yeah I think that's actually the big deal that people don't seem to understand. There's a lot of people that seem to be turned off by electric vehicles because of the speed they can achieve, yet when you think about it you do not drive incredibly fast in normal commute. In my GT, I don't go above 65 mph on the interstate (unless there are areas where speed limit increases), and city driving is at the most 45 mph. With the constant influx of variances of speed, that tends to lower your average speed significantly.

If you're going above the figures I mentioned on normal commute, then you probably need to re-evaluate how you drive. Powering like a bat out of hell from a stop light over and over again won't help matters, and there's honestly no reason on interstates to go over the posted speeds (you're never going to be first. Someone is always ahead of you). Honestly it's no wonder some poeple's cars don't last as long as they should. The fact of the matter is a vehicle of the Tesla's specifications is quite amazing when operated like it should, and car makers should really pay attention as more electric vehicle options are explored.

I like all the responses so far, so lets keep the discussion going!

quote Originally posted by 30+mpg: Time for some simple math (real simple) Lets say the 50 mile trip takes 2 gallons and gas is $4/gallon. A week (5 working days) would require $40 worth of gas, a year, $2000. Also let's say you could get electricity for free. 0 cents per KWH. If your conversion cost $10,000, it would take 5 years to just recover your investment not accounting for inflation or the Present Value of money. At the end of 5 years, would you need to replace the batteries? If you have to pay for electricity the recovery period would be longer. If you could convert for $500 (good luck with that), the payback would be less that half a year

Awesome point, but I think it's a LOT more complicated than what most people think. Especially with the replacement of the batteries comment most say. I mean keep in mind as gas car also has maintenance too that adds up, oil, spark plugs, other various fluids, and anything else that breaks (not saying that an electric car won't also have some too besides batteries).

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Tesla motor's published specs on the Roadster is 0-60 in less than 4 seconds and a top speed of 125 mph, hardly "poor performance".

You don't need to convince us...the Tesla rocks! But 99.99% of us can't afford a Tesla. Probably less than 5% of us can afford a Chevy Volt. The problem with electric cars now is more the cost than anything else.

I'm looking to build a "wind powered" car. as long as you are driving you don't have to worry about not having wind. all you need is a few dozen or so wind generators. and en electric motor. never have to pay to charge it... :P

quote Originally posted by tox1cchicken: I'm looking to build a "wind powered" car. as long as you are driving you don't have to worry about not having wind. all you need is a few dozen or so wind generators. and en electric motor. never have to pay to charge it... :P

You would first have to invent another Universe with different laws of physics where that would actually work.

my rebuttal.

quote Originally posted by Hockaday: my rebuttal.

Tesla is nice, but notice that it ran down after 55 miles of spirited driving... Then you have to wait 16 hours to have more fun. Not too practical.

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 03-19-2011).]

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Tesla is nice, but notice that it ran down after 55 miles of spirited driving... Then you have to wait 16 hours to have more fun. Not too practical.

Practical? People that spend $100k on a car don't care about being practical. Maybe they'll just buy two, drive one while charging the other. Besides, I'll assure you the Tesla owners have other cars to drive.

I'd rather have an Exige...

But seriously, people mention that you drop all the weight of the engine...but they conveniently ignore the weight of the electric motor, controller, and the batteries. Batteries get heavy. If you want to build a Fiero to show how much you love baby seals and polar bears, do your thing. If you want to build one as a daily driver to save money...do some math. How much gas would $5k buy you? Plus, with gas, you aren't limited to a slow car with low range, with a LONG recharge. There have been a few posts recently about people converting old Porsches and VWs to EV, then realizing they are not usable in the real world, so they spend and extra couple grand ON TOP of the $10k the conversion cost to have a gas engine pusher built and added to the EV in order to make it usable. So you go from ICE, to EV, to "hybrid" with the ICE pushing the EV so the EV can finish the trip...

"White Lightning" wasn't a budget or practical build, and it wouldn't attain those numbers in a heavy car like the Fiero.

If you really want an EV, go for it, but if you just want a practical fuel miser, get a CRX or a 5spd Duke Fiero or something.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: You don't need to convince us...the Tesla rocks! But 99.99% of us can't afford a Tesla. Probably less than 5% of us can afford a Chevy Volt. The problem with electric cars now is more the cost than anything else.

Not too expensive, its only $40K more than the Volt.....

quote Originally posted by sportcoupe: Practical? People that spend $100k on a car don't care about being practical. Maybe they'll just buy two, drive one while charging the other. Besides, I'll assure you the Tesla owners have other cars to drive.

Maybe "practical" wasn't the best word I could have used. But even spoiled rich kids are going to be mighty pissed if they take their Tesla out on a cruise and suddenly find themselves 50 miles from home and it runs out of juice. That's what I meant.

Of course if you can afford a Tesla, you simply call a cab and have the Tesla towed home. Not a huge deal, but inconvenient at the least.

Move to a city with electric trolley cars, buy a house nearby & get a job close.

That way you just popup the contact pulley and the amount of batteries you need to carry has dropped.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Tesla motor's published specs on the Roadster is 0-60 in less than 4 seconds and a top speed of 125 mph, hardly "poor performance". Tesla motors also published that their Roadster's average range is 245 miles, which is good for an EV and not bad compared to a gas car. Heck, my Fiero's average range on a tank is less than 245 miles. The transmission problem was solved in 2008 and only applied to the first batch of transmissions they bought from another manufacturer, so your information on that is outdated. Regarding the range issue, here's something that came from a forum discussion on real world range experience with the Tesla Roadster: Discussion here: http://priuschat.com/forums...-roadster-range.html From that discussion, a real world experience WRT range: I've had a Roadster for a little over a month now. I've taken two trips over 200 miles: 210 and 250 (several other owners were with me on the second trip). I would say that the 244-mile range is possible in the real world; no weird driving habits required. But you do have to be careful to not waste anything. When we are pushing the envelope and want to make sure we will get the full range, we put the top on, keep it under 60mph, and don't use a lot of heat, A/C or headlights. Taking the top off, turning the lights on and using a lot of heat and A/C will drop range around 10%, maybe 15%. Going faster will reduce your range as noted in the graph above. But the worst thing is accelerating quickly. If you are driving around town and take off fast from every stoplight, it is easy to drop your range by 1/3rd. REALLY hard driving, such as at a track, can cut it in half. Or so I've heard from other owners; I have not tried it with my car. A lot of people ask about hills; they aren't so bad. Sure you use a lot more energy going up them; but you gain the vast majority it when you go down the other side. The net amount lost is small compared to the energy it takes to push the car along at 60mph. A last thought: In most states driving 100mph will get you arrested, thrown in jail, and your car impounded. If that's your preferred driving style then an EV is most definitely not for you.

Lately, I've been enjoying all of your posting.

quote Originally posted by TommyRocker: I'd rather have an Exige... But seriously, people mention that you drop all the weight of the engine...but they conveniently ignore the weight of the electric motor, controller, and the batteries. Batteries get heavy. If you want to build a Fiero to show how much you love baby seals and polar bears, do your thing. If you want to build one as a daily driver to save money...do some math. How much gas would $5k buy you? Plus, with gas, you aren't limited to a slow car with low range, with a LONG recharge. There have been a few posts recently about people converting old Porsches and VWs to EV, then realizing they are not usable in the real world, so they spend and extra couple grand ON TOP of the $10k the conversion cost to have a gas engine pusher built and added to the EV in order to make it usable. So you go from ICE, to EV, to "hybrid" with the ICE pushing the EV so the EV can finish the trip... "White Lightning" wasn't a budget or practical build, and it wouldn't attain those numbers in a heavy car like the Fiero. If you really want an EV, go for it, but if you just want a practical fuel miser, get a CRX or a 5spd Duke Fiero or something.

I appreciate all the responses so far, and don't take this as an attack TommyRocker, but let's leave the "green" bashing comments out like the polar bear one for example as I made this thread from a financial standpoint not as a "hippie/love the earth/wanna be green to make myself feel good" thread. Once again I want to re-iterate that is not the direction I'd like this thread to go but soley from a financial standpoint/or interest in alternative fuel.

Continuing with the alternative fuel point without making a new thread. What about hydrogen? From what I've read it's only a couple hundred dollars to hook up the proper devices/hoses/etc to the existing engine and supposively NO modifications to the engine? Could a duke run off a hydrogen mix as some of these kits I've seen? I have an 88' 5-speed duke as my DD.

quote Originally posted by 30+mpg: If you burn 2 gallons of a gasoline per day, that's 500 gallons per year. If the price of gasoline goes $1, the extra cost is $500/ year.

and recharging your electric every nite @ an an average electric rate, at $2.00 per nite will cost you $720.00...

quote Originally posted by Fiero Finale: Continuing with the alternative fuel point without making a new thread. What about hydrogen? From what I've read it's only a couple hundred dollars to hook up the proper devices/hoses/etc to the existing engine and supposively NO modifications to the engine? Could a duke run off a hydrogen mix as some of these kits I've seen? I have an 88' 5-speed duke as my DD.

To summarize my long experiment:
I tried the hydrogen booster on my '97 jeep with zero increase in mpg. I experimented for 3-4 months and lots of fill-ups. I tried adjusting the MAP, IAC, O2 and CTS signals going into the pcm one at a time and mixing/matching modified signals. No matter what I did the pcm always had more authority over fuel then I could manipulate with the closed loop sensors.

IMO, unless you have the ability to reprogram the pcm (or ecu), I couldn't on my jeep, or switch to a carb you will not see any gains from a hydrogen booster.