We've been thinking a lot about putting together a turbo kit that would work on the 2.8L Fiero V6. This would include the following components:
Turbocharger Oil feed and return lines Blow off Valve Wastegate Intercooler Charge Piping Intake Pipe and Filter Exhaust Y-Pipe for Turbo Optional headers
It would be a "tuner" kit with a possible option for tuning. Not sure, this is kind of an "on the drawing board" idea. Just want to hear your input.
Top Line Group has been working a lot with Street Solutions lately, and they are fully capable of handling this type of kit production. In fact it's right up their alley! See for yourself: www.YourStreetSolutions.com
Maybe even a Twin Turbo setup for the Fiero... not sure if that's ever been done before. What are your thoughts?
Im sure a few would buy it, however most of these 2.8's are getting up there in the mileage and the demand for a boosted application for said high mileage 2.8 would be slim pickin's. While the 2.8 will handle minimal boost with proper tuning the HP gains are just not worth it (to me at-least). However, I would imagine people with the 3.1 and the 3.4 PR would show more interest in the kit. Also (no offence to PFF) people on here have a habit of saying "Hell's yea, if you made ________I would totally buy it", however when the time comes they dont pay up. So is your time and money worth the gamble of selling a few kits? Also, would the cost be worth the time and effort for the HP ratings (1200 bucks I can swap a 3400 DOHC and get better MPG and HP)? I understand this would be a mostly bolt on kit that could be installed by someone with basic hand tools (selling point). But I think you should boost a 2.8 for your self before trying to promote a future product. I think you will find it's a little bit more that hoses and exhaust tubing. Im not trying to knock your idea I just dont want to see a valued vendor to PFF take a hit because his product did not sell.
Im sure a few would buy it, however most of these 2.8's are getting up there in the mileage and the demand for a boosted application for said high mileage 2.8 would be slim pickin's. While the 2.8 will handle minimal boost with proper tuning the HP gains are just not worth it (to me at-least). However, I would imagine people with the 3.1 and the 3.4 PR would show more interest in the kit. Also (no offence to PFF) people on here have a habit of saying "Hell's yea, if you made ________I would totally buy it", however when the time comes they dont pay up. So is your time and money worth the gamble of selling a few kits? Also, would the cost be worth the time and effort for the HP ratings (1200 bucks I can swap a 3400 DOHC and get better MPG and HP)? I understand this would be a mostly bolt on kit that could be installed by someone with basic hand tools (selling point). But I think you should boost a 2.8 for your self before trying to promote a future product. I think you will find it's a little bit more that hoses and exhaust tubing. Im not trying to knock your idea I just dont want to see a valued vendor to PFF take a hit because his product did not sell.
Thank you for your detailed input! You make some valid points here, especially about the cost of an engine swap.
However, trust me that I am familiar with turbocharging naturally aspirated cars, even a couple Fieros (1 v6 and 1 4cyl). Check out the shop that would be building and developing the kit if we wanted to go forward with it: www.YourStreetSolutions.com, building this type of system is what they're best at. If we were to go for it, it would be top notch!
A turbo system... could be interesting. Haven't heard of a production turbo kit since the Design1, and they seem quite thin on the ground now. What sort of price point are we talking?
If it was a proper kit I would have some interest depending on the price. A lot of the "kits" I see sold for cars are just a pile of china aluminum tubes and blue couplers with a couple of parts. It needs to have a full custom Y pipe all ready to bolt in and a full custom intake pipe setup.
Also look at previous sellers that have tried this, the last Design 1 turbo kit sold for $5000 for the basic kit and sold incredibly few simply because of a price that is higher than the selling price of 90% of all the fieros out there.
Your customer base will be very, very small if your price is anywhere near the $5000 mark.
The 2.8L v6 Turbo setup from the Saab is a perfect fit to the Fiero, as it is based on the same engine and will practically bolt right up to the Fiero engine.....
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08:04 AM
FinnishFireball Member
Posts: 33 From: Oulu, Finland Registered: Aug 2011
Thats interesting larini, what exact Saab model are you talking about? The whole kit idea is a OK, you guys might wanna know that even engine swaps are easier and more cost effective route to go, it's not legal operation everywhere. Supercharging on the other hand is, at least where I live. But like said above the market is quite tiny anyhow, might still be worth of doing the kit.
The saabs arround 2000 are getting very cheep and breaking a lot due to timing belt failures I had it happen to me so the cars are getting cheep and the parts are even cheeper and the turbos are very well made just my .02
------------------ 1987 Black GT Custom interior with Mr. Mikes seats Newly acquired 1985 coupe with series one 3800SC 5speed Getrag as a donor to the Fri Fri (87GT)
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01:24 PM
zmcdonal Member
Posts: 1678 From: NW, Indiana Registered: Oct 2005
Im sure a few would buy it, however most of these 2.8's are getting up there in the mileage and the demand for a boosted application for said high mileage 2.8 would be slim pickin's. While the 2.8 will handle minimal boost with proper tuning the HP gains are just not worth it (to me at-least). However, I would imagine people with the 3.1 and the 3.4 PR would show more interest in the kit. Also (no offence to PFF) people on here have a habit of saying "Hell's yea, if you made ________I would totally buy it", however when the time comes they dont pay up.
I understand where you are coming from. I will not commit to hell's yea I would totally buy it, but definitely a neat idea. I have tossed around the idea of how difficult it would be to turbo my 2.8 but I know that I would not trust myself to come up with everything needed to do so, so a complete kit would be perfect for my situation. Now to be completely honest, I do think it would probably be a very limited market as 87antuzzi had stated. For me it would seem like the most logical upgrade because my 2.8 was recently rebuilt with a cam and lots of porting and a 4 speed auto before I purchased it, so it would be kind of dumb to throw all that work away for an engine swap at this point. Now if I was starting from scratch with a worn out 2.8, I would probably go a different route like 3800SC or something.
Do you have any idea what kind of power increase turbo-ing a 2.8 could provide? Or how many pounds of boost can safely be run? I know that there are a few guys on here with homebrew kits they have made but I'm sure results vary with those. I know you are gauging interest and probably have not worked out the details as of yet, but you have a ballpark figure on what your kit would cost? Or at least a price range that you are aiming for?
From what I can find, the 1998 - 2002 9-3 models had the 2.8 turbo available in them.....
What models? The 2.8t Saab 9-3s I know of are 2005+, and are the High Feature V6, which is hardly a bolt in solution in a Fiero. And the 1998-2002 Saabs all had only 4 cylinder engines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...tion_.281998-2002.29
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02:42 PM
SlowGuitarMan Member
Posts: 316 From: Morgantown, WV, USA Registered: Jan 2010
I think this is a good idea depending on price/ quality. I want more power in my formula, but I don't want to do an engine swap. I want to keep it original. I was going to build my own, but if there was a Bolton kit for a good price, I would consider it.
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02:58 PM
dratts Member
Posts: 8373 From: Coeur d' alene Idaho USA Registered: Apr 2001
I've already gone another way, but if I was going to do a turbo V6 I'd be looking at the dohc. Probably not that many dohc swaps out there, but they can be a high winding engine that handles boost really well from what I hear.
[This message has been edited by dratts (edited 08-15-2011).]
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04:42 PM
hetterbr Member
Posts: 213 From: Saskatchewan,Canada Registered: Feb 2009
I would be interested. Depending upon the price and the complexity of the work required. My 2.8 only has about 20,000 miles on it, and I only drive it about 1,500 miles a year, so I have not plans to change it out any time soon. but having a bit extra "get up and go" would be nice. Any ideas as to extra horse power?
Not to take you in a different direction, but has anybody made a turbo kit for an ecotec in the fiero? I know you can get them from zzperformance and the like, but I doubt the exhaust would be routed right for our cars.
Just a thought, as gas gets more expensive and those motors get cheaper and cheaper.
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06:21 PM
TheRealShadowX Member
Posts: 1456 From: Milwaukee Wisconsin USA Registered: Mar 2010
I've already got a 3.4. My next steps, in order are Sprint headers, DTB intake (Thanks TLG!) cam, and then boost. I was going to go with a Vortech Supercharger but seeing as how the blower ALONE can run $1,500+ a complete Fiero specific turbo kit would be perfect. Those headers will be mine sometime in the next few weeks, so I'm hoping the rest of the list will be mine in about a years time. Obviously we will just have to wait and see.
I will be sticking with the 3.4 regardless of cost. Why? Because I want to. Or I'm stupid. Whatever.
------------------ (TRSX) The Zombiero - "Thrice resurrected" 1985 GT, 4 Speed Muncie, 3.4PR V6, 15" Lace GT wheels, Power everything, sunroof, Red with gray effects. Driven and enjoyed daily.
Fiero GT- 2 seater, mid engine, rear wheel drive, H.O. V6, manual rack and pinion steering, fully independent suspension, 4 wheel disc brakes, no ABS, no traction control, no speed limiter, available T-Tops. So, outdated econo-box or classic sports car? You decide.
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06:52 PM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15326 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
Not to take you in a different direction, but has anybody made a turbo kit for an ecotec in the fiero? I know you can get them from zzperformance and the like, but I doubt the exhaust would be routed right for our cars.
Just a thought, as gas gets more expensive and those motors get cheaper and cheaper.
Turbo kits do exist for Ecotec engines but they are very expensive. As for a turbo for a 2.8L. I used to sell turbo kits a long while ago and most of them found their way onto 3.4L P/R engine swaps. With the popularity of the 3800 and 4.9L it killed the demand for the kits which BTW were $2,000. I believe that a Fiero specific Ecotec turbo kit might be the up and coming accessory but first we need to find an easy formula for doing these swaps. Perhaps a kit like Archies with an adapter plate to the GM V6 bolt pattern might get things started. Hows that for a new product idea?
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, ZZP Intercooler, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 09-21-2011).]
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06:58 PM
pcwentworth Member
Posts: 411 From: New Concord, Ohio, United States Registered: May 2005
It is really funny, I kept wonderinf if TLG would look into this. If it could be kept under $2500 I would go for it in a heart beat. I have a stroker 3.1 with less then 3000 miles on it.
I almost think a turbo kit for the 3800/Fiero would be more popular... I could only see the 2.8/3.1/3.4 getting a turbo if it was rebuilt at some point. But I DO believe if one could get 220+ out of there 2.8-3.4 motor AND the price was resonable, it would sell... Every Fiero owners "resonable" price varies greatly though
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08:41 PM
Francis T Member
Posts: 6620 From: spotsylvania va. usa Registered: Oct 2003
Whereas we have been making intake manifolds and headers for these engines for quite a while now, I have a good feel for what the Fiero crowd will pay for 2.8/ 3.4 engine related equipment. I don't think there would be much of a market for a full blown turn-key setup as discribed as it will have to cost at least $3k. Yes, few would be interested, but not enough for you to do any quantity buying of hardware -turbos etc- to pass along the savings. Price it with very limited production in mind. If it does take off you can then buy in quanites. BTW: I an 86 GT turbo running 10 lbs and its fast enough for me. I'm also building a norm asp 2.8 that should put out well over 200 hp at 6k+ that said I still like these engines a lot, you just have to let them inhale and exhale better.
ya, there are ALOT of us out there with fresh rebuilt 2.8's and 3100/3400 swaps that i think would be interested in this kit (ME) for one! Not everybody wants to go through a 3800 or V8 swap and would still like to see some considerable perf. gains. Insert the 3.4PR/Turbo path. I have been waiting for some one to put together a plug&play turbo kit for awhile. I say build it and they will come! And you may only sell 20-30 kits, but i think there is a nitch to be filled there and room for profit if done correctly. I will be waiting and watching (as i think alot of us will be) for more details to unfold.
Hey guys, thanks for the input! It really means a lot to hear right from the Fiero community on new product ideas.
A few things to touch on: We were actually considering building a Fiero specific performance intake manifold for the 3800 NA, thought that would be kind of cool.
An ecotech swap adapter plate is also an interesting idea!
As far as the cost of the turbo and performance, etc.. all of those details are in the air, if we even decide to go forward with this idea. Like I said, it's one of those things that is on the drawing board.
We'd have three levels of kits though, I know that for sure: LVL 1: Cheap turbo, minimal warranty, no intercooler, basically just the charge tubing, oil feed/return, a turbo and the exhaust system. Probably cost around $1K. Maybe $899 or something really cheap. LVL 2: Name brand turbo, good warranty. Would come with the option of an intercooler for a certain boost level, BOV, oil lines, charge tubing and exhaust. Same as the LVL 1 but with a decent turbo and BOV. Probably run around $1,999. LVL 3: This one would be wicked cool! Maybe even a twin turbo setup... The best components, the best of the best! Probably a $4,000 kit.
I don't see why we couldn't offer a Fiero turbo kit for $2K.
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09:59 PM
snakeskinner1 Member
Posts: 252 From: st. joseph,MO. Registered: Jan 2011
Hey guys, thanks for the input! It really means a lot to hear right from the Fiero community on new product ideas.
A few things to touch on: We were actually considering building a Fiero specific performance intake manifold for the 3800 NA, thought that would be kind of cool.
An ecotech swap adapter plate is also an interesting idea!
As far as the cost of the turbo and performance, etc.. all of those details are in the air, if we even decide to go forward with this idea. Like I said, it's one of those things that is on the drawing board.
We'd have three levels of kits though, I know that for sure: LVL 1: Cheap turbo, minimal warranty, no intercooler, basically just the charge tubing, oil feed/return, a turbo and the exhaust system. Probably cost around $1K. Maybe $899 or something really cheap. LVL 2: Name brand turbo, good warranty. Would come with the option of an intercooler for a certain boost level, BOV, oil lines, charge tubing and exhaust. Same as the LVL 1 but with a decent turbo and BOV. Probably run around $1,999. LVL 3: This one would be wicked cool! Maybe even a twin turbo setup... The best components, the best of the best! Probably a $4,000 kit.
I don't see why we couldn't offer a Fiero turbo kit for $2K.
Kit level 0! You should have a base kit with everything required to install a turbo minus the actual components like the turbo, BOV and I/C. For those picky people who want to pick their own major components. Just a thought. I know there will be some turbo gurus who think they must have Turbo B over turbo A. Again, just a thought, but I think it is definitely something to consider.
------------------ (TRSX) The Zombiero - "Thrice resurrected" 1985 GT, 4 Speed Muncie, 3.4PR V6, 15" Lace GT wheels, Power everything, sunroof, Red with gray effects. Driven and enjoyed daily.
Fiero GT- 2 seater, mid engine, rear wheel drive, H.O. V6, manual rack and pinion steering, fully independent suspension, 4 wheel disc brakes, no ABS, no traction control, no speed limiter, available T-Tops. So, outdated econo-box or classic sports car? You decide.
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12:55 AM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
First off.. 99% of your market hates turbos for unknown and illogical reasons. Most think of turbo lag, others think of "tuning issues". I had a guy at a fiero club meeting say he would pay an ungodly amount of money for a supercharger kit for a fiero, but wouldnt go near a turbo setup because it was "hard to tune" (I felt bad because I laughed in his face on accident, thought it was a joke).
Secondly... I havent made a 3800 swap kit for many many small reasons... One that seems to be fairly fiero specific... Everyone out there is a critic, and everyone seems to be critical of stuff that just plain irrelevant or ignorant. One bad press release and you just killed another 99% of your customer base.
The rest of the people left because they are smart enough to see through the BS are going to go the obvious route and do a motor swap as they could do it for 1/4 the price.
Lag sucks to a point, but I'm convinced it will allow me to not grenade my econo-tranny. It's mostly the shock you get from popping the clutch that breaks things. Additional torque from the turbo that "slowly" ramps up (after clutch engagement) shouldn't hurt much.
I don't see how you're going to do an engine swap for a 1/4 of the price of slapping a turbo on an existing engine. Either way, you've got to fabricate exhaust...
Compare apples for apples. Similar levels of quality/workmanship.
[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 08-16-2011).]
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02:03 AM
Carcenomy Member
Posts: 1109 From: Invercargill, New Zealand Registered: Jan 2009
+1 for a 'Stage0' kit - those of us outside the US get gouged something fierce on shipping, so shipping just the essential Fiero-specific parts then sourcing the large parts locally can work out far easier. Just throw in a chart of recommended turbos or whatever, and an explicit warranty on the parts and workmanship supplied only. I'd be down for a kit with no large parts and configured for an intercooler.
the hard part of a turbo kit is the Y pipe set up for a turbo. Honestly Offer the Y pipe to T3 flange and the exhaust tail and that is the hard part of a turbo install. Everything else is a lot easier. Although a custom bent and welded intake setup to run from the stock airbox to turbo, and then from turbo to TB would also be a nice touch. It eliminates having to stock expensive turbos completely.
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:
There are many problems here..
First off.. 99% of your market hates turbos for unknown and illogical reasons. Most think of turbo lag, others think of "tuning issues". I had a guy at a fiero club meeting say he would pay an ungodly amount of money for a supercharger kit for a fiero, but wouldnt go near a turbo setup because it was "hard to tune".....
I have ran into those people as well but when shown a SC kit that fits they suddenly wont spend the money. there are at least 3 ways to get a SC kit for the Fiero 2.8/3.4 The Faegol requires switching to TBI or carb, you can get centrifugal SC that work great and will mount without effort or modifications, and any shop that is 1/20th competent can slap a divorce mounted M62 under that hood. but a SC install is not cheap. Even chasing down my project to put a M62 on the top like the 3800sc engines have I ran into costs that were outrageous. $5500.00 was what my prototype fabrication costs were going to be. a Faegol can be installed for less than $3500.00 but you must chop a hole in the decklid.
Most guys that whine about turbo lag are all talk. Corvette Z06 turbo kits mount the turbos at the rear bumper, they have 24 feet of air plumbing for the turbo intake air path and owners of that super lag setup are very happy with it. ------------------ Get your copy of the Fiero 25th Anniv book at http://www.blurb.com/bookstore/detail/349809
I always thought of turbo lag as a problem associated with early 80s mass produced low displacement turbo setups, and people running the wrong sized turbos.
I'm new to turbos so I don't have anything to compare my ls4 turbo to, but I don't notice any lag in mine. From what I've read, the ball bearing turbos with short runs pretty much eliminate lag. That is what I have. My turbo is mounted right over the transaxle and my intercooler is on the front firewall.
[This message has been edited by dratts (edited 08-16-2011).]
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11:41 AM
dratts Member
Posts: 8373 From: Coeur d' alene Idaho USA Registered: Apr 2001
the hard part of a turbo kit is the Y pipe set up for a turbo. Honestly Offer the Y pipe to T3 flange and the exhaust tail and that is the hard part of a turbo install. Everything else is a lot easier. Although a custom bent and welded intake setup to run from the stock airbox to turbo, and then from turbo to TB would also be a nice touch. It eliminates having to stock expensive turbos completely.
Offering just the piping and a recommendation for the other components would probably get a lot more people interested.
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12:52 PM
Black Lotus Member
Posts: 340 From: Washington State USA Registered: Jan 2010
I didn't see any mention of how you're going to get extra fuel into the engine. The Design 1 kit has a special chip to modify the fueling and spark. Additionally, I had to add a rising rate FP regulator with some RPM related controls to keep the engine from rattling above 4000 RPM. And a different fuel pump. The Y-pipe supplied with the D1 kit isn't an issue because it has a metal bellows incorporated into it. The turbo is supported off the transaxle. Personally, I had ZERO failures with the D1 kit hardware, but it also wasn't a particularly high performance system either. Good luck. Would love to see what you come up with.
[This message has been edited by Black Lotus (edited 08-16-2011).]
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07:18 PM
30+mpg Member
Posts: 4051 From: Russellville, AR Registered: Feb 2002
I dont understand why anyone would spend $2000 for a turbo kit when they could install a 3800 sc and have more HP. Also, realiability is a problem with a 2.8 boosted. I had one and never could get it to idle.
Dont mean to be a nay-sayer but these are the facts. Simply the money is better spent on a better engine and proven setup.
The best components, the best of the best! Probably a $4,000 kit.
Offering just the piping and a recommendation for the other components would probably get a lot more people interested.
