Ok boys and girls, I've seen a couple of threads of people wondering and pondering on the idea of a full size spare up front, as well as the idea of more cargo area, also up front. I haven't started my official "Concept Build Thread" yet, because I'm still deep in the teardown & rework phase, but I wanted to toss up some interesting images here of just what can be done up front.
Click on the above images for full-size, or surf on over to the link in my sig to see my build log. Structurally, I can't see anything really major needing to change. - The radiator and A/C condenser could easily be dropped a couple of inches if you want the 100% trunk space I'm going for, and while you're down there, the air flow from the front dam could be redirected such that it doesn't ram up under the car and need a hood scoop. Or, you could scrap those entirely and go with a different plan, such as some we discussed here. For a mild mod, I particularly like Austrian Imports' idea of dual rads. - The brake and clutch master cylinders could be relocated to under the 'trunk floor' with some tricky linkage (which is what I'm planning.. ). - The A/C canister (and hopefully some A/C techs will chime in on this for specifics...) could be relocated also, maybe below the trunk floor, or if height is an issue (something makes me think it might be...), then it could be placed where the stock optional subwoofer resides, or even all the way back in the engine bay. It's very light, so the weight differential wouldn't be that severe.
In the images, you can see that the tops of the frame rails are surprisingly straight, which would make an awesome floor. I see several degrees of modding that could happen here; the most extreme of which I'll be doing (ie, 100% front space usage). I'm toying with the idea of maybe scrapping the hydraulic clutch system and going with a hefty cable similar to the shifter cables, so I might just end up deleting that entirely. I never understood why Pontiac went to the effort of using a $300 hydraulic clutch system when a simple cable should have been fine, and then didn't even give us a Ferrari trunk!!
Just in case any of you are having difficulty imagining the trunk space, I crudely placed some pieces of wood that would be the floor of the trunk:
The steel that I cut away is paper-thin, and it's highly improbable that has any supportive value. However, if there was a safety concern aroused, a piece of boxed tube steel could be welded between the frame rails, just in front of the sway bar, underneath the trunk floor. Also, if one were to do this mod and wanted to keep all four headlight mounting studs, it would be possible to do so and just insert a simple brace between the unsupported stud and the wheel well.
I'd love to hear your thoughts, and if anyone thinks the reading would be interesting, I'll go ahead and start my official build thread...
I'll be doing a low-profile headlight similar to yellowstone's, but they'll be mated with the hood such as the '89 prototype headlights were. I suspect they'll drop approximately 4-5" under the hood itself, give or take an inch, but that still leaves a lot of room, considering the depth of the existing headlight buckets/mounting areas.
Radiator? Now that I think about it, I guess you have that covered.
If you like, I'll post images of what I mean by dropping the radiator... I still have mine laying there in my shop, and I can place where I imagined it to be moved to, and snap some pics. I placed it there lastnight, and was surprised at how good it looked there, and wondered that GM didn't just do that to begin with...
Also, after reviewing my previous images, I realized that they don't really show the depth & space that I see when I go and look at it myself, so lastnight I snapped some pics with a tape measure in place. If anyone is interested, I can post those also.
I've always been disappointed with the packaging in the front compartment. GM could have done a lot better. But I'm interested to see where you will mount the radiator and the brake booster, (which takes up an insane amount of space.) The folks building electric Fieros should be watching this, and there is a lot more room up front that usually doesn't get used for batteries. Your build is a nice way to show how much space there really is. This could be a great project.
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09:41 AM
Xanth Member
Posts: 6886 From: Massachusetts Registered: May 2006
I like what you're doing so far, and am very interested. The only thing I would be concerned about is your plan for the brake booster, I'd be nervous about introducing any sort of linkages into that system.
Even if you left the booster in the original area, with the rest of the work you're doing you would be gaining a ton of space.
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09:51 AM
kwagner Member
Posts: 4257 From: Pittsburgh, PA Registered: Apr 2005
nice Idea I like where you are going with this. except for the false title on this thread. I was looking for something else um er? nevermind!
Hehe... got your attention, didn't I? Fine, here's something to keep me from having false advertisment:
Ok, enough goofiness... I'm going right now to check the measurements on dropping the rad. From my preliminary calculations, you should be able to relocate the lower radiator bracket down 1" and aft 3" (or so), and it should give the result I'm imagining. Basically, if you move the bracket such that the front holes of the bracket align with the rear holes in the frame rail (drill new rear holes), and then add 1" spacers between the bracket and the frame rails (and longer bolts), then you should just about be there. But like I said, I'm going right now to do more R&D on it. I'll post what I find.
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11:46 AM
jimbolaya Member
Posts: 10652 From: Virginia Beach, Virginia Registered: Feb 2007
Hehe... got your attention, didn't I? Fine, here's something to keep me from having false advertisment:
Ok, enough goofiness... I'm going right now to check the measurements on dropping the rad. From my preliminary calculations, you should be able to relocate the lower radiator bracket down 1" and aft 3" (or so), and it should give the result I'm imagining. Basically, if you move the bracket such that the front holes of the bracket align with the rear holes in the frame rail (drill new rear holes), and then add 1" spacers between the bracket and the frame rails (and longer bolts), then you should just about be there. But like I said, I'm going right now to do more R&D on it. I'll post what I find.
Why did the airbags deploy? Did you hit something?
Jim
[This message has been edited by jimbolaya (edited 11-26-2008).]
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11:57 AM
whodeanie Member
Posts: 3819 From: woodstock,Ga.,USA Registered: Jan 2008
Ok, I'm about to post a plethora of images. This first post is images of the tape measure laid out on the trunk as promised earlier... If you can't determine the area I'm measuring, let me know, and I'll clarify for you. Again, you can click on the images for hi-res.
Keep in mind, all of these measurements are with the radiator, fan, and A/C condenser completely deleted, as well as the brake & clutch master cylinders, A/C canister, and the climate control box with the blower fan (but it doesn't take up much room at all in my "trunk")
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01:03 PM
fieroguru Member
Posts: 12130 From: Champaign, IL Registered: Aug 2003
And here is kinda what I had in mind for the rad drop... I don't even think this is a full 1" drop down. First, for comparison, here are two images of the original location unmolested:
And now for my idea...
Note how the radiator bracket nestles up snuggly to the steering rack braces, almost as if the corners were cut to fit there:
In my original idea, I had hoped the bolt holes for the radiator bracket and the steering rack braces would align, but no dice. However, you could drill a hole in the rad bracket to match up with the steering rack bolt, leaving the structural integrity intact. The measurement from the floor to the bottom of the rad is on a stock suspension, rollin' on 195/70r14's that aren't fully inflated. For reference, I measure 12" from the floor to the center of my hubs. In my opinion, you could easily drop the rad another inch and still have plenty of clearance; in fact, I bet it would still fit inside the front fascia bottom lip, or at least be real close. Note the radiator still sticks up a bit, and you'd need to create a hump in floor of your trunk for airflow from the rad, but it's still a vast improvement on contiguous space up front. EDIT: Links were broken, just fixed 'em.
[This message has been edited by fieroboom (edited 11-26-2008).]
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01:19 PM
fieroboom Member
Posts: 2132 From: Hayden, AL (BFE) Registered: Oct 2008
Here is the one I did for my roadster fiero several years back. This will be an interesting project to watch.
Perfect! You just completed my vision! Now take that, and extend it forward all the way to the front.... imagine the space!! I'm going back down now to see where the donut spare can be wedged... I'm going to see if I can retain the trunk floor for the most part, and hide the spare in a 'bucket' somewhere... BRB!
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01:22 PM
fieroboom Member
Posts: 2132 From: Hayden, AL (BFE) Registered: Oct 2008
Here are some pics of the donut spare as I imagine it:
That spare is actually out of my '88 Cadillac DeVille, but I think it's fairly close to the Fiero one, if not bigger. I had to move the rad fan up a bit for it to clear, but with another 1" drop as mentioned before, it should clear fine, especially if the Fiero spare is in fact smaller. I envision a trunk floor like you'd fine in just about any other car - sort of a basin in the middle where you see the tire sitting in the above images, with a small board over it, covered in some nice trunk carpet.
Ideas?
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01:52 PM
RCR Member
Posts: 4397 From: Shelby Twp Mi Registered: Sep 2002
Well Bob, I actually won't have a fan in mine... At least not there, anyway. I either won't have a conventional radiator at all, or I'll have two smaller ones such as the Porsche's do, as outlined by Austrian Imports in an earlier stated thread. However, I thought others might benefit from my findings, since I already have mine torn down, and they might not have the intestinal fortitude to rip into a nice '88 without some sane reasoning... But then again, I kinda make stuff up as I go, so I have no issues tearing into and discovering, and my reasoning isn't always that sane...
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05:38 PM
kwagner Member
Posts: 4257 From: Pittsburgh, PA Registered: Apr 2005
Speaking of insane... It's time to get crazy... Still simple, but crazy, and actually, doable! Anyone notice anything different?
The bottom radiator support pictured above would of course be fully mounted... This is just a fitment test... And since I'm such a nice guy, I even grabbed the front cover and slipped it on for fitting comparison...
The steering rack support brackets are dropped 1", and the front sway bar is dropped 1.5". Just to be clear, the sway bar obviously needs to have a substantial mounting surface welded on if you're planning on dropping it. Dropping those makes the top of the tire sit as flush as it possibly can with the trunk floor. The radiator, A/C condenser, and fan are flipped, and of course, you'd need a fan that moves air in the opposite direction. This setup would allow you to route the air easily, and makes the space you need for a full trunk!
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06:42 PM
fieroboom Member
Posts: 2132 From: Hayden, AL (BFE) Registered: Oct 2008
is that center steel crosspiece structural? I thought it was at first, but you removed it above and it doesn't seem to make much difference.
Kwagner, In my first post, I said this:
quote
Originally posted by fieroboom: The steel that I cut away is paper-thin, and it's highly improbable that has any supportive value. However, if there was a safety concern aroused, a piece of boxed tube steel could be welded between the frame rails, just in front of the sway bar, underneath the trunk floor. Also, if one were to do this mod and wanted to keep all four headlight mounting studs, it would be possible to do so and just insert a simple brace between the unsupported stud and the wheel well.
So in short, no, I don't think it has any structural value whatsoever. I was able to easily bend it once I cut it out. It *might* assist in pulling the frame rails together in that crumple zone area so as to slow a pole or tree entering dead-center-head-on, but I won't be performing any crash tests... I'll be perfectly satisfied with piece of rectangular tubing welded between the frame rails below the trunk floor.
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06:56 PM
katatak Member
Posts: 7136 From: Omaha, NE USA Registered: Apr 2008
Here is an out there kind of idea. How about relocating the cold air intake in the back and running dual smaller radiators behind the rear 1/4 panels with big scoops dragging the air in via thermo fans? Would free up a huge amount of front trunk area.
Then swap the heater unti for one of the specialised hot rod units. They are tiny. I actualy considered one of them during my RHD conversion.
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08:03 AM
fieroboom Member
Posts: 2132 From: Hayden, AL (BFE) Registered: Oct 2008
Here is an out there kind of idea. How about relocating the cold air intake in the back and running dual smaller radiators behind the rear 1/4 panels with big scoops dragging the air in via thermo fans? Would free up a huge amount of front trunk area.
Then swap the heater unti for one of the specialised hot rod units. They are tiny. I actualy considered one of them during my RHD conversion.
The only issue with that is I'm personally attempting to do this without moving anything major to the back. The front/rear ratio is already about 60/40, and with a V8 swap, it's even worse, and then if you pick up your friend from the airport, and drop a 40lb suitcase in the rear trunk, behind the engine, it's even worse again.... I'm trying to keep everything up front, and even move a few things front the back to the front to try to stay as close as possible to 50/50 front/rear
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11:07 AM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
Speaking of insane... It's time to get crazy... Still simple, but crazy, and actually, doable! Anyone notice anything different?
I like the way you think...but I really think you will have issues getting air to flow into that radiator at the reverse angle. The current design works pretty well grabbing air from underneath. Pontiac just forgot to vent the hood. Once you do that it's nearly perfect.
With your design all the air has to come in through the fascia...you definitely need to lose that front license plate. Then you are trying to turn the air downward and under the car. That might actually make the car less stable at speed. I guess you won't know until you try, but I would suggest leaning the radiator more forward rather than backward.
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12:46 PM
kevin Member
Posts: 2722 From: Elk Grove, CA USA Registered: Jan 2000
Hey Fieroboom, I suggest robbing some ideas on your concept from the Ford Pantera. Have you looked at what they accomplished? Or, look at the similarities in the DeLorean. Some good ideas from those designers
Cordially, Kevin
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01:12 PM
Swedish Fiero Member
Posts: 187 From: Mark, Sweden Registered: Oct 2008
I like the way you think...but I really think you will have issues getting air to flow into that radiator at the reverse angle. The current design works pretty well grabbing air from underneath. Pontiac just forgot to vent the hood. Once you do that it's nearly perfect.
With your design all the air has to come in through the fascia...you definitely need to lose that front license plate. Then you are trying to turn the air downward and under the car. That might actually make the car less stable at speed. I guess you won't know until you try, but I would suggest leaning the radiator more forward rather than backward.
Hey jscott, thanks for the input, and I'm trying to figure out how to tactfully disagree so that I don't sound like an a**hole... So I hope you don't take my response that way. I totally agree with you on the point that the hood should've been vented from the factory, but that doesn't deal with the trunk I'm trying to create. Anyway, my method (of madness) is to find out the combination that gives the trunk space, and then figure out what to do with the airflow. The reason is because I can come up with a hundred different ways to route the air, but only a few ways to get trunk space, and simply venting the hood doesn't give us any more space. Also, There are cars such as Lamborghinis (especially some of the kits) that that don't even use forced air cooling from the car's motion, so as long as I have a fan I'm happy with, then partial blockage of the forced air isn't an issue - as long as air flow can be achieved. However, it's difficult to show in the pictures what I'm seeing in person, but being reversed, the radiator will actually act more like a scoop. Even though air flows through it, it's still a flat surface that presents some resistance, and with that, should actually pull the front of the car downward more, assuming the area behind the radiator is vented properly. I'm betting that ventilation can be achieved through something like fender vents (like the M3s), or even out the wheel wells, which could also assist in brake cooling as an added bonus. Thanks for your suggestion, and please post more comments; I'd love to hear what all you guys think!
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07:44 PM
fieroboom Member
Posts: 2132 From: Hayden, AL (BFE) Registered: Oct 2008
No, as seen in the above images, my design is perfect! hehehe... I posted those in the girls with Fieros thread, but I thought I'd put them here since they're related...
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09:48 PM
jscott1 Member
Posts: 21676 From: Houston, TX , USA Registered: Dec 2001
I'm betting that ventilation can be achieved through something like fender vents (like the M3s), or even out the wheel wells, which could also assist in brake cooling as an added bonus. Thanks for your suggestion, and please post more comments; I'd love to hear what all you guys think!
No problem disagreeing...it shows that we are all using our heads for something other than to hold our hats.
As an Engineer, I've found that most any design can be made to work. It's just a question of how difficult. I'm sure you can figure out how to route the air, but I've found that small changes can make a huge different. It might take some trial and error. I'm running without an air dam and the car is about 10 to 15 degrees hotter on the expressway. You will probably need to open the fascia a bit. I don't think there are any fans that can move enough air to cool at expressway speeds, (the engine is making tons of heat which needs to be removed). All cars, Even the Porsche's and Lamborghini's have to force the air in at some level.
I understand your goals, which are to maximize trunk space and that is a worthy goal, one that Pontiac obviously neglected.
I'm also curious...your car seems to have a lot of surface rust, did it come from up north? I'm not used to seeing any rust on Texas vehicles. I've cut up Fieros with less rust. I'm sure you will POR-15 the whole thing at some point.
).
Radiator? Now that I think about it, I guess you have that covered.
