For those of you who don’t know whats going on, please visit this thread;
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/068954.html

I have been staying away from the forums recently as I have been truly embarrassed and ashamed of myself. I am making this public as I have already admitted fault with Steven and believe this is also due. When I purchased the car from Tony, all was handed over with a good transaction and no fault of his. I was upset at the way he came on so hard to initially bury me without ever contacting me first. When I took the title to the DMV, there had been a mistake made, they did drop the preceding ‘1’. I noticed this right away as soon as she handed me the title, and instead of making any sort of morally obligated attempt to correct, I used a lapse of judgment to simply ‘accept’ and capitalize on this error. I compounded the problem by making a story to match and sold the car to Steven months later under false pretenses with an illegal mileage. I apologize to all parties that may have been interested in purchasing this car as well as to the entire community for being deceiving and a downright liar. Please know that this is not the way I usually conduct business which is why I have opened myself to any sort of punishment I deserve. As of now, I have a friend that works at Carfax and I have discussed the matter with her. She will be submitting a report on my behalf to get this all straightened out to have any flags on the report removed. What I will need is a picture with the odometer corrected. I will need to check my finances, but I will need to work a bit to get a lump sum of $1000 to you. (On the bright side, $900 for $2k worth of powder coating and $1000 worth of new parts on top of the car isn’t too bad) I will let you know what I have and can do. I have already picked up a second job to expedite the process. I am extremely embarrassed and ashamed in what I have done to not only a fellow Fiero owner, but another person in general. To all, I am truly sorry and I ask you let me make this right so I can earn your forgiveness.


Regards,

Joe

quote Originally posted by RandomTask: For those of you who don’t know whats going on, please visit this thread; https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/068954.html I have been staying away from the forums recently as I have been truly embarrassed and ashamed of myself. I am making this public as I have already admitted fault with Steven and believe this is also due. When I purchased the car from Tony, all was handed over with a good transaction and no fault of his. I was upset at the way he came on so hard to initially bury me without ever contacting me first. When I took the title to the DMV, there had been a mistake made, they did drop the preceding ‘1’. I noticed this right away as soon as she handed me the title, and instead of making any sort of morally obligated attempt to correct, I used a lapse of judgment to simply ‘accept’ and capitalize on this error. I compounded the problem by making a story to match and sold the car to Steven months later under false pretenses with an illegal mileage. I apologize to all parties that may have been interested in purchasing this car as well as to the entire community for being deceiving and a downright liar. Please know that this is not the way I usually conduct business which is why I have opened myself to any sort of punishment I deserve. As of now, I have a friend that works at Carfax and I have discussed the matter with her. She will be submitting a report on my behalf to get this all straightened out to have any flags on the report removed. What I will need is a picture with the odometer corrected. I will need to check my finances, but I will need to work a bit to get a lump sum of $1000 to you. (On the bright side, $900 for $2k worth of powder coating and $1000 worth of new parts on top of the car isn’t too bad) I will let you know what I have and can do. I have already picked up a second job to expedite the process. I am extremely embarrassed and ashamed in what I have done to not only a fellow Fiero owner, but another person in general. To all, I am truly sorry and I ask you let me make this right so I can earn your forgiveness. Regards, Joe

That gives you avatar a whole new meaning. One action can lead to...

Give me a call or send an email some time.

ALLTRBO, I'll give you $800 for the car. That way you get all your money back and I have all that nice suspension!

[Dr. Phil] You're an idiot. [/Dr.]

Not only could ALLTRBO take you to court and win damages, you would be responsible for his attorney fees as well. Then I'm fairly certain you broke federal laws as well.

"I'm sorry" doesn't quite cover it.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: "I'm sorry" doesn't quite cover it.

Do a favor and read the post again. I'm not simply saying "I'm sorry" . I'm getting the mileage corrected on all parts as well as financial compensation.

Kudos for manning up and trying to make things right. You may still end up in legal hot water becaue regardless of what reparations you're trying to make, you did intentionally make a fraudulant sale.

I hope you and Steven are able to come to a mutually acceptable arrangement.

Although the damage was already done i find it admirable that you are stepping forward and owning up to the facts. Kudos for that and lesson's learned the hard way. I believe a great man once said to forgive is devine. You can never erase what has been done but can make it right and hopefully those involved can forgive. Good luck.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: I hope you and Steven are able to come to a mutually acceptable arrangement.

I've been following the other thread, and I hope so as well..

quote Originally posted by RandomTask: Do a favor and read the post again. I'm not simply saying "I'm sorry" . I'm getting the mileage corrected on all parts as well as financial compensation.

That's great. But you just admitted to the forum that you're a scammer. On most forums, that would be grounds for an instant ban and a call to the police.

An apology and promises of returning part of the guys money, IMHO, isn't going to cut it. ALLTRBO is a nice guy and probably won't say anything, so I will. I think you should give him the car for free. The alternative ($30,000+ attorney fees, possible jail time and/or fines) would make it worth it on your part. (Somehow I don't think your "carfax friend" is going to mention anything about "deliberate odometer rollback fraud"....) It would make a good lesson, and a good example for any fraudsters thinking of doing the same thing.

It's not so much that I think ALLTRBO deserves a free car, but rather that you deserve more of a punishment. The fact that you did this to another Fiero person ("the family") makes me sick, and quite frankly I'm surprised you're still here.

Good luck anyways,

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: That's great. But you just admitted to the forum that you're a scammer. On most forums, that would be grounds for an instant ban and a call to the police. An apology and promises of returning part of the guys money, IMHO, isn't going to cut it. ALLTRBO is a nice guy and probably won't say anything, so I will. I think you should give him the car for free. The alternative ($30,000+ attorney fees, possible jail time and/or fines) would make it worth it on your part. (Somehow I don't think your "carfax friend" is going to mention anything about "deliberate odometer rollback fraud"....) It would make a good lesson, and a good example for any fraudsters thinking of doing the same thing. It's not so much that I think ALLTRBO deserves a free car, but rather that you deserve more of a punishment. The fact that you did this to another Fiero person ("the family") makes me sick, and quite frankly I'm surprised you're still here. Good luck anyways,

I think if you’re going to make such bold statements I reserve the right to defend myself.
You’re right, on a lot of other forums, they would be sought after legally. But on the same argument, how many of those people admit fault and offer themselves? Usually its scam and run. I could very easily have never told Steven and stayed away from this forum, but I didn’t because you guys are like family. You have no idea of the conversation that’s happened between Steven and I. I did offer to refund the entire purchase price of the car, but Steven countered with the $1000. I also did mention to my friend the situation, and I did catch a ton of flak for it, but you’ve assumed otherwise to seemingly inspire a lynch mob mentality. I like this community for the fact that an overwhelming majority are genuinely good people. It is a family. I am somewhat perplexed how you can agree to that yet be so inclined to make sure you destroy a fellow family members life all for your personal agenda. I’d like to think of myself as a nice guy, with the ratings to stand behind it, but I made a horrible decision and despite what you think, am paying dearly for it. I have lost thousands of dollars, countless hours of sleep, and worst of all, the trust of everyone here.

quote Originally posted by RandomTask: You’re right, on a lot of other forums, they would be sought after legally. But on the same argument, how many of those people admit fault and offer themselves?

You probably would never have come clean unless you were caught red handed. You gambled and lost.

This should be a ban situation, a scammer is a scammer.

My opinion: If person A Scams person B, and person A and B deal with the situation, and Person B is "ok" with the end result, and person A doesn't scam anyone else, (learns his or her lesson) then it's a good thing.


If person A scams someone, or a bunch of people, and doesn't deal with it, that's not cool.

Hope this ends well...

quote Originally posted by RandomTask: I like this community for the fact that an overwhelming majority are genuinely good people. It is a family. I am somewhat perplexed how you can agree to that yet be so inclined to make sure you destroy a fellow family members life all for your personal agenda. I’d like to think of myself as a nice guy, with the ratings to stand behind it, but I made a horrible decision and despite what you think, am paying dearly for it. I have lost thousands of dollars, countless hours of sleep, and worst of all, the trust of everyone here.

I've almost commented on this thread three times now and decided that it would be better if I said nothing. The above quoted post changed my mind. What I have quoted is where I see the biggest transgression. Yes, it was fraud and very illegal but, we are a community of good people with a singular interest that we share. I do admire that you're standing up or manning up to this. What I don't know is would I buy a car from Joe. It's an honest question that I can't answer. We've all made mistakes in life but our integrity is the one thing in life that no one can take from us, only we control that aspect of our lives.
I won't sit here and condemn you, you're doing a pretty good job of that on your own. It takes a lot of work to build up respect and trust. I don't envy your uphill battle.

Edited to add: I do hope you make it back up to where you were. Wishing you luck isn't worth a nickel in this situation, it's all on your shoulders from here on out. I've made mistakes myself, there are some things tough to overcome. You've taken the first steps but, it's a long journey to get back to where you were. Best wishes.
------------------
Ron

It's the Soldier, not the reporter
Who has given us the freedom of the press.
It's the Soldier, not the poet,
Who has given us the freedom of speech.
It's the Soldier, not the politicians
That ensures our right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.
It's the Soldier who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag.

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-11-2008).]

quote Originally posted by blackrams: We've all made mistakes in life but our integrity is the one thing in life that no one can take from us, only we control that aspect of our lives. I won't sit here and condemn you, you're doing a pretty good job of that on your own. It takes a lot of work to build up respect and trust. I don't envy your uphill battle.

I've almost replied several times as well, thinking better of it each time. Joe I just want you to know that I am incredibly proud of the effort that you are making to redeem your honesty. I think more of you now than I have in the past, which has always been in very high regard. Just like Blackrams says, we've all made a mistake or tripped up at one point. How you pick yourself back up is everything. Keep doing what you're man. Never try to get away with something like that again though.

[This message has been edited by Emc209i (edited 01-11-2008).]

Good on you for coming clean, but I tend to agree with Ryan.Hess... sorry just does not cut it. Personally, I place those that pull scams for finacial gain in the same boat of those that steal; and I have zero regard for thieves.

It seems to me that the only reason you came clean is because you were caught. Had the issue not been challenged by the buyer would you have contacted him on your own accord and fessed up?

I guess that your offer for finacial compensation does make the entire situation a little less bitter, and is a class act, but again...

quote Originally posted by FieroRumor: My opinion: If person A Scams person B, and person A and B deal with the situation, and Person B is "ok" with the end result, and person A doesn't scam anyone else, (learns his or her lesson) then it's a good thing. If person A scams someone, or a bunch of people, and doesn't deal with it, that's not cool. Hope this ends well...

I agree 100 %

I disagree as he got caught on this one { how many others were done }and that is why he fessed up. He is hoping it shows enough so he doesnt get sued. The DMV may report it and they will go after the said parties. Also trust me no matter what you say or do that title will now forever be marked as a problem with odemeter error. THATS THE LAW Rick

his giveing back 1000 bucks is him getting off on the cheep


Sec. 32709 Penalties and Enforcement
1. Civil Penalty of not more than $2,000 for each violation. The maximum penalty under this subsection for a related series of violations is $100,000.00.
2. Criminal Penalty: A person that knowingly and willfully violates this chapter or a regulation prescribed or order issued under this chapter shall be fined under Title 18; imprisoned for not more than 3 years.

Sec. 32710 Civil Actions by Private Persons
1. Violation and amount of damages - A person that violates this chapter or a regulation prescribed or order issued under this chapter, with the intent to defraud, is liable for 3 times the actual damages or $1,500.00, whichever is greater.
2. Civil Actions: A person may bring a civil action to enforce a claim under this section in an appropriate United States district court or in another court of competent jurisdiction. This action must be brought no later than 2 years after the claim accrues. The court shall award cost and a reasonable attorney's fee to the person when a judgment is entered for that person.


so i think in this 1000 bucks is a good deal its not above and beyond

I believe in acknowledging a person's repentence regardless of the motivation. He could have pulled an OJ and continued to deny his responsibility so I am inclined to give him a break.

People make mistakes, most often out of desperation rather than poor character, and the test of character is if you take it like a man and own up to your errors and accept the consequences...If only every party to a transaction lived-up to this standard.

Having said that Joe, realize that you will always be dealt with in the future with greater skepticism. That is a price you can't avoid paying.

Best wishes to all involved

I've typed up about 4 responces to this thread, then thought better of it and deleted them.

1st off, I have been a victim of this scam, on a seriously expensive Lotus and not a relativley cheap Pontiac. I did nothing about it, simply because back then carfax didnt exist and records were poor so there was never enough -Proveble- evidence to nail the SOB.

I'd also like to say, I have no moral problem with rollbacks or VIN swaps ON THE CONDITION that the car is never-ever-ever sold. When you are done with it, it becomes scrap metel.Yes, I know its "Illeagal"---but it is also Ileagle for the government to violate property rights with thier petty little regulations...IF and ONLY if, you keep it for all time, or wreck it. Government can drop dead, but you do not skr** over another individual.

Thats a victimless crime. Take 3 cars, build one, and use a VIN and odometer/instrument cluster of convience and use it for your own personal pleasure, never to be sold. Technically illeagal in some areas, Yes. But harmless, and really in some areas of the world the only way to actually live and get things done. Perfectly understandable and forgiveable.

My personal somewhat-undereducated opinion, is that a victimed crime has been commited, the victim has been harmed, and the victim needs to pursue it to the fullest extent, including all criminal and civil means. The perp needs to make amends including and not limited to the actual costs, but compensation for time, hopes and dreams shattered, disalusentment, ect.

Sorry man, $1,000 just dont cut it---and if you had done it to me, right about know I would be having a lawyer slap liens against everything you own.

There are crimes, and there are crimes. Busting a parking meter time limit is a crime, so they say. Outright fraud is a whole different ballgame.

I don't know what state those two are in, but here in Texas, trying to do right to the buyer might not be enough. If the DA with jurisdiction found out then charges would by brought against the seller. The buyer would have no say in this. The buyer could bring a civil case against the seller, usually after a criminal trial, so all of the evidence is out and viewable by the aggrieved party.
I think falsification of vin numbers and odometer mileage is Federal Jurisdiction and or State. My suggestion to all members is to let the buyer, (Steven) make up his mind what "He" wants to do, and decide whether or not "HE" wants to presume civil and criminal paths.

RandomTask the free car to Steven might not be such a bad Idea. Anything you wrote here can be used against you in a civil, or criminal preceding and regarded as a confession, a voluntary statement not under arrest. As this is all open to the whole world to read.

Good Luck to you Both
Joe Crawford
Texas

[This message has been edited by josef644 (edited 01-12-2008).]

Wow RandomTask you where going to buy parts off me but you just vanished when I tried to get you to paypal the money you dint ever have i bet that was less than a week ago and you never pm me back that you had some thing come up and other guys that where intrested went and bought parts so i couldnt sell to them I hope you get every thing thats coming to you

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. What I'm about to say is NOT to justify what has been done. I never intended to sell the car. There was a couple of other reasons why I went along with it, but again, I'm not trying to justify me doing it so I'll keep those personal. If you are so inclined to know, I'll gladly discuss in a PM. I did not get the car so I could do wrong and make profit. I sold it for a LOT less than I had in it for the fact I didn't even have money so I could eat. Just to give you an idea, the final sale price was $1900. I had purchased the car from Tony for $900. That was for an '88GT rolling chassis. I went in and had every single piece of suspension powder coated (cross member, cradle, all of it) , all new poly bushings/ball joints/control arm shafts, corvette brake kit, new tires, stainless brake hoses, and a bunch of other items let alone all the work that went into doing all of that. That being said, I already sold the car at a hell of a loss. To take in the fact that I'm now giving him back another 1k, I'll have given all of that stuff to him at cost to me. And worse, I'm selling my whipple setup, my dreams, so I can fix the situation as fast as possible. You don't think I haven't looked at my '88 now and said "If you hadn't of lied, all of that could have been on this car."? To sit there and say you'd slap liens on everything I own is quite harsh, but then again, I'm at the receiving end. I've been screwed out $1400 for audio equipment on ebay. However, the person who defrauded me, just walked away, and I never heard from them again. I've read threads where people here have been defrauded out of hundreds for Fiero parts where the person just walked away never to be heard from again. Judging by responses to that situation, people want you to make it right. But now that I'm trying to do that, you guys just want me destroyed.

quote Originally posted by engine man: Wow RandomTask you where going to buy parts off me but you just vanished when I tried to get you to paypal the money you dint ever have i bet that was less than a week ago and you never pm me back that you had some thing come up and other guys that where intrested went and bought parts so i couldnt sell to them I hope you get every thing thats coming to you

I've been staying away from the forums and I apologize for the time delay. I was about to send you an PM I wouldn't be able to buy the parts. I'm pretty sure that even though we had just agreed to a price before I stopped, I never sent you any money and you didn't send me any parts. I did have the money, but obviously any personal project I have has been put on hold. Would you rather I have sent you the money so you could run here and talk about how I'm spending money on personal projects before I get this situated?

[This message has been edited by RandomTask (edited 01-12-2008).]

<edit>

Never mind, its your cross to bear.

I

[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 01-12-2008).]

Wow agian I cant even wrap my brain around this BS you mean you dint try to make the title look like it had 22xxx miles and then because the DMV ladie made a mistake and you know she made a mistake you would change the odometer because this is what you do not get the title corected then try and sell it to some one lie to them about the miles then try to act like you kinda a victim of what she did

Thanks for the red mark. You screw up and then give me a mark? By the way you changed the odometer reading so non of the other garbage you are talking bout means a thing.

Didnt want to sell it,, he twisted my arm......

DMV forgot the "1" But I decided to take it off the speed instead of correcting it with them........

Then the other thread where you LIE thru your teeth about this,,,,, your shaking so bad at the moment and need time to think,, Yah cause you new you were busted.

Again thanks for the red mark for me telling the truth unlike you. More proof the ratings bar works perfectly.. Rick

......adjusted the odometer????? OUCH!

I hope it all works out with you. I can tell you're feeling bad about it.
Ask your self....If you never got caught, could you have slept ok at night? If you never got cought, would you ever have told the buyer?
Your answers would tell alot about you.

All the best to all parties involved, including everyone here in the Fiero Family.
At least this scam looks like it ended with a happy ending.

Just my opinion:

I think Joe will be a changed person over this whole thing. How could anyone not be? I personally know he has not been able to sleep at night and that the finiancial responsibility he is taking on to settle this with ALLTRBO is beyond his present means. It also sounds like he is selling off his dreams (whipple and who knows what else) to give ALLTRBO whatever he agrees to.

I am not defending the act - it really bothers me as much as others here. I was looking at buying that same car. I have dealt with Joe on many occasions and he is a member of the PFF family. While many think he should be in jail, we are not the jury and cannot say with certainty when he has truly paid for his crime. We have our own "jury" here, and they show judgement by either ignoring his requests/sales/questions on PFF or using the rating system. Those who choose to sell/buy/answer him are the ones who agree he is guilty, but grant a second chance at PFF life. I will be one of those.

Importantly, the Fiero community as a whole has learned something during this ordeal. Anyone who thought about doing something like this will now reconsider, ALLTRBO will hopefully be satisfied with the outcome - and Randomtask has a red mark that will stay with him for forever at PFF. Anyone dealing with him will know to check everything before conducting business - if they choose to do business with him. I would, because I don't believe he will ever consider any underhanded deals again. I can hear it in his voice when talking to him.

I bet he would even be willing to ship out sale items BEFORE receiving payment to let others know that this was a one-time lapse in judgment. He's going to have to do things like that to get any kind of rep back in this family.

I hope this all works out, with ALLTRBO very satisfied with the outcome. That is Joe's main responsibility now - ALLTRBO's satisfaction. ALLTRBO holds all the cards. IMO, we should let them settle it before saying anything else.

Cheers!

quote Originally posted by engine man: Wow agian I cant even wrap my brain around this BS you mean you dint try to make the title look like it had 22xxx miles and then because the DMV ladie made a mistake and you know she made a mistake you would change the odometer because this is what you do not get the title corected then try and sell it to some one lie to them about the miles then try to act like you kinda a victim of what she did

I never said nor implied I was any sort of victim. What I did was absolutely wrong. This whole thread could have been avoided if I just said "I'm sorry, thats not right."

quote Thanks for the red mark. You screw up and then give me a mark? By the way you changed the odometer reading so non of the other garbage you are talking bout means a thing. Didnt want to sell it,, he twisted my arm...... DMV forgot the "1" But I decided to take it off the speed instead of correcting it with them........ Then the other thread where you LIE thru your teeth about this,,,,, your shaking so bad at the moment and need time to think,, Yah cause you new you were busted.

By red mark, you think I gave you a negative? I haven't given anyone a red mark, so its not me. Yes I was shaking, yes full of different emotions. I could have kept lieing, I was scared. The reason I was pissed at Tony was for the fact he made it so public so quick, but even talking to him, Steven is a decent guy and doesn't deserve that nor am I going to continue to snowball this. I am better than that. But lets put this in perspective, using your situation for example, that steering wheel you thought you were scammed on. Now you felt that you were wronged, if the seller had returned all of your money, and let you keep the wheel he sent you, would you be happy? Or would you be demanding he do community service or jail time for lieing?

I think its good to confessing, but to do this to somebody is just so wrong. I was 16 when i bought my fiero, and i worked all summer to save up for it. I finally found the one i wanted on ebay and bought it. The people were so nice, and the car was better than i expected. I cant imagine buying it and finding out the mileage was rolled back. I just cant understand how you could sell someone a fiero and lie about the mileage. All of the fiero people i have met have been the nicest people, and i am shocked that someone on this forum would do that to another member. Its sad.

I shouldn't even be sticking my nose in here in the first place, so I won't.

[This message has been edited by 1986 Fiero GT (edited 01-12-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Saxman: ALLTRBO holds all the cards. IMO, we should let them settle it before saying anything else.

x2

Naw, Sax...Jail is not something I would ever wish upon anyone. I've known and worked with people who have been there, and they are broken human beings. VERY heartbreaking.

As for rumor, I'm kind of hoping some harsh words and a temporary "outcast" situation will be enough.

But hey, I'm Canadian. up here even GWB would get a second chance given time

quote Originally posted by Saxman: Just my opinion: I think Joe will be a changed person over this whole thing. How could anyone not be? ... I hope this all works out, with ALLTRBO very satisfied with the outcome. That is Joe's main responsibility now - ALLTRBO's satisfaction. ALLTRBO holds all the cards. IMO, we should let them settle it before saying anything else. Cheers!

I am not passing judgement on RandomTask as I do not know him, however I do not believe that crime should be dismissed with an I'm sorry... and that is what this is; a crime. You can dress it up and call it what you want, but he defrauded someone out of money for gain. It does'nt matter that there is a lot of new stuff on the car. It was misrepresented for the sole purpose of increasing its value.

Does that mean he belongs in jail... maybe not, but a simple I am sorry and a check for a grand does not cut it in my book.
Perhaps if he had to go thru the real turmoil of standing trial, then perhaps he'd really feel the sting that crime brings. I know if I sent someone a couple of thousand of my hard earned dollars for something that it was not, and then after the truth came out the seller fessed up I would not be satisifed with an I'm sorry and a partial refund.

I look at it like this.

Let's say it was something more extreme, like armed robbery. But after making a clean get away your identity is discovered. You turn yourself in give all but 900.00 dollars back and say I'm sorry. You'd still be prosecuted because you broke the law. Of course the jury would probably be easy on you because of the apology an partial refund, but none the less you'd face the judicial system.

Lastly, I agree that in the end, as long as the buyer is satisfied, then all other opinions are moot. This is between the buyer and seller.

Oh, how can anyone not be a changed person after something like this? Easy. There are plenty of petty criminals that got started with little stuff, they might have had remorse after the first scam, but grew hardened over time.

quote Originally posted by topcat: I am not passing judgement on RandomTask as I do not know him, however I do not believe that crime should be dismissed with an I'm sorry... and that is what this is; a crime. You can dress it up and call it what you want, but he defrauded someone out of money for gain. It does'nt matter that there is a lot of new stuff on the car. It was misrepresented for the sole purpose of increasing its value. Does that mean he belongs in jail... maybe not, but a simple I am sorry and a check for a grand does not cut it in my book. Perhaps if he had to go thru the real turmoil of standing trial, then perhaps he'd really feel the sting that crime brings. I know if I sent someone a couple of thousand of my hard earned dollars for something that it was not, and then after the truth came out the seller fessed up I would not be satisifed with an I'm sorry and a partial refund. I look at it like this. Let's say it was something more extreme, like armed robbery. But after making a clean get away your identity is discovered. You turn yourself in give all but 900.00 dollars back and say I'm sorry. You'd still be prosecuted because you broke the law. Of course the jury would probably be easy on you because of the apology an partial refund, but none the less you'd face the judicial system. Lastly, I agree that in the end, as long as the buyer is satisfied, then all other opinions are moot. This is between the buyer and seller. Oh, how can anyone not be a changed person after something like this? Easy. There are plenty of petty criminals that got started with little stuff, they might have had remorse after the first scam, but grew hardened over time.

Yup - "I'm sorry," does not cut it. $1000 after getting caught is not the full extent that the law allows, but if ALLTRBO ends up happy with it - and he doesn't have to spend his personal money on a lawyer (and never see that $1000 from Joe), it's his choice. I might have asked for all the money back, but I can't say since I was not in that situation.

Comparing armed robbery (which could easily end a life) to this is a bit much, but I see the point you are making. Like I said, I don't know just what I'd do if I were in ALLTRBO's place. I do think I would be satisfied with the overall price considering what I ended up with - once I cooled off

If I didn't know Joe, I would think it is possible for him to do it again. I do know him better than I know most of the others here on PFF, and I would bet $ that he is a different person already - not just from fear of legal action, but from the loss of respect and dignity in this Fiero family.

I can wait for ALLTRBO's words. It will be nice to hear how this ends. As long as ALLTRBO is satisfied, I'm satisfied.

there is a difference between this and superchargerv6's story. what happened there was not illegal. Now i liked what i seen from randomtask before this all happened. I dont think allturbo got that short changed but he dissevered to make the choice of buying a 122k car over a 22k car. I think that what ever allturbo decides is what needs to happen.

quote Originally posted by Saxman: Yup - "I'm sorry," does not cut it. $1000 after getting caught is not the full extent that the law allows, but if ALLTRBO ends up happy with it - and he doesn't have to spend his personal money on a lawyer (and never see that $1000 from Joe), it's his choice. I might have asked for all the money back, but I can't say since I was not in that situation. Comparing armed robbery (which could easily end a life) to this is a bit much, but I see the point you are making. Like I said, I don't know just what I'd do if I were in ALLTRBO's place. I do think I would be satisfied with the overall price considering what I ended up with - once I cooled off If I didn't know Joe, I would think it is possible for him to do it again. I do know him better than I know most of the others here on PFF, and I would bet $ that he is a different person already - not just from fear of legal action, but from the loss of respect and dignity in this Fiero family. I can wait for ALLTRBO's words. It will be nice to hear how this ends. As long as ALLTRBO is satisfied, I'm satisfied.

Well said. My thoughts exactly
Joe Crawford
Texas

quote Originally posted by engine man: Wow agian I cant even wrap my brain around this BS you mean you dint try to make the title look like it had 22xxx miles and then because the DMV ladie made a mistake and you know she made a mistake you would change the odometer because this is what you do not get the title corected then try and sell it to some one lie to them about the miles then try to act like you kinda a victim of what she did

Please, my head is hurting reading that. A few periods and commas please?

Run on sentences make Jesus cry.