Love it or hate it, here's my idea.


That would be an '88 GT stretched about 11 inches plus some additional bracing. Why? Well to put a Porsche G50 tranny behind this, of course:



Which, in my IROC-GT form, would put about 500hp and 600 lb/ft to the wheels (currently should be at about 450hp and 650lb/ft at my IROC-Z's wheels) by way of a slightly bigger cam and ported (or aluminum) heads.

Top it off with an IROC-Z dash/console and fourthgen Camaro seats (much better than thirdgen seats), along with modified IROC-Z GFX and decals, IROC-Z style wheels, throw in a custom lip spoiler, make the hood louvers functional heat extractors, then slap on some big brakes and you have a 500whp mid-engined 5.7L twin turbo 2-seater IROC-GT that weighs ~3150 lbs. (~3100 with alum. heads) fully optioned that has a better handling suspension, more available traction, and a stronger chassis than a thirdgen.

It's very doable, and for less than an insane amount of money (well at least for me since I already have most of the parts; the G50 setup would be the most expensive). I think the hardest part would be modding the body for the stretch, but nothing one good with fiberglass can't do. I'll take mine in Medium Blue Metallic thanks. (The white one just so happened to be the easiest to PS).

Get a good long look at that beautiful stretch, then realize how stubby this rear end really is. (Sorry for hacking up whoever's car this is, but it was a perfect one to chop since details are hidden easily).



BubbaJoe's car provided a tad bit of inspiration, but not most of it. His is in a class all it's own.
I've got a lot of the details worked out on how this would be built, but not all of them. I'd REALLY love to merge these two cars together that I love so much, but life will ultimately decide whether that is to be. It's a possibility.
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'86 Fiero GT 3.4 - broke again
'96 Talon TSi AWD - 11.9 @ 116, sorta broke again
'90 Camaro IROC-Z twin-turbo - sorta broke again
'95 Kawi GPZ1100 - too fast

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 09-11-2007).]

i personally think your idea would be and looks sweeeeet! but thats just me... i love Fieros and Camaros

Thanks. Everyone seems to be wanting to go wider these days, I say going longer's where it's at.
(I do like widebody fastbacks though).

I'll post a few more of my IROC-GT ideas tomorrow, it's time for bed now.

That is nice. I like the Camaro hood. Is that something that would bolt right on, or would body mods be required?

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Someone has actually made something very much like that, there is a build thread somewhere for it but I can't find it

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I would first suggest some nice scoops for those air filters to sit right behind, don't go crazy though the smoothness and simplicity of the photoshop give that, meant to be this way look.

Oh and if you aren't afraid of working on the quarter windows extend the sail panels to the back of the car and have the lip spoiler integrated like mad curl has done on most of his chop tops.

I like the concept, bubbajoe's car looks great it is just the notchy makes an overly symetrical look for me and I think extended sail panels and aero bumbers will give a totaly different look. And most people that stretch the fiero change to a lambo or ferrari, I say keep it as a fiero.

Chris

i hate you , had that idea+ photoshopped it 2 years ago! so obviously i like your idea

Personally, I really like that concept! If you decide to do it, then make sure to give us lots of pics!

quote Originally posted by 85FieroGT3.4: That is nice. I like the Camaro hood. Is that something that would bolt right on, or would body mods be required?

it would just be putting that part of a fiberglass iroc hood into the fiero hood, the hoods are alot different.

quote Originally posted by ALLTRBO: Top it off with an IROC-Z dash/console and fourthgen Camaro seats

I'll do the gauges/cluster for you. I have a spare 4th gen Camaro Cluster that I can wire to be plug and play in a Fiero.

BTW, let me introduce myself. I'm Steven, and I lurk around here a lot and have posted in The Mall a bit but haven't posted much otherwise. Will's Fiero on here ('86 GT N*) got me into Fieros a couple years ago, and now I'm hooked like the rest of you, dangit. As if I didn't have enough car hobbies already.
Anyway, hopefully I can contribute something, even if it isn't necessarily Fiero related.


85FieroGT, yes it's like AJ7 said, except that IROC hoods aren't fiberglass, they're steel. The louvers are plastic, however. The Fiero hood could be hacked up to accept them, and they can be modified to vent (they're solid in stock form).

Xanth, yeah I mentioned BubbaJoe's car in my first thread. His is sweet, but my idea goes a different way a bit.

eph_kay, I actually would plan on using the Fiero Store side scoops that are on my '86 (just didn't PS those in), but to feed the twin intercooler w/fans setup. ...Unless you meant the quarter window replacement scoops, then there's no way that's happening. Those are also on the '86 (I bought it that way) and I despise them.

Here's that car (the way I bought it).


I know what you mean about the PS "meant to be look", for example the side moldings were easier to delete than to turn white. I'd just paint them body color on the real thing, I think. However, I wouldn't build this without giving it that "meant to be this way" look, that's what real customization is all about.
I don't want to mod the quarter windows or sails, I like the long-in-back mid engine look (with the fastback). Think NSX in that respect.
I will show you a possibility I have in mind in a minute, though.

BobadooFunk- Really? Do you still have the photoshop? I'd love to see it. How much of my idea did you have? Hey, at least I thought of it all on my own, even if I wasn't 'first'. :P

88red- 'If' it gets done, definitely expect lots and lots of pics.

jscott- That's technically the part I'm most qualified to do myself. I'm an Electronics Technician working at NASA building wiring harnesses for satellites and such. Fourthgen clusters aren't the same as thirdgen clusters, did you mean thirdgen? Anyway, thanks for the offer!
While I don't need much help with harness changes I wouldn't mind lots of help with fiberglassing, though. hehe


Okay, for the IROC-GT rear, this isn't in the photoshop, but I think would look and function GREAT minus those vents and wingstand depressions, but with 'tamer' (different style) vents and the rear deck stretched to match the body, of course with the high-rise IROC style spoiler attached.
These are from this thread- //www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/066140.html





I'll post on the taillights in a bit, I have more work to do to them.

Thanks for all the comments so far!

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 09-12-2007).]

This may give ya a head start on the hood. Its from drivenvisions.com

Well almost, but I don't like the raised section. I suppose I could cut out the outline for the louvers then graft it onto the Fiero hood, but that wouldn't be much different than modding the hood by itself, which would save $225. *shrug*
Thanks for the idea.

ok but gimme a break.. i did these 1-2 years ago...

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quote Originally posted by ALLTRBO: jscott- That's technically the part I'm most qualified to do myself. I'm an Electronics Technician working at NASA building wiring harnesses for satellites and such. Fourthgen clusters aren't the same as thirdgen clusters, did you mean thirdgen? Anyway, thanks for the offer!

I meant 4th gen as that's what I have laying around. Oh well, you already know how to wire it anyway. Are you working on Hubble in anyway? I'm involved a little bit in the development of some Hubble repair tools.

Sorry I haven't responded, I had a stay in the hospital for two days from a severe allergic reaction to something. :/

BobadooFunk- Cool! That first one's front end looks more like an old Monte, though. The second has definitely got some 91-92 Z28 going on, I kinda like it!

jscott, okay. I'd wire it up with a thirdgen cluster, though. I meant no disrespect, it's just funny that I would need help in so many other places but that's where it was offered.
I haven't worked on Hubble, but probably will before Service Mission 4 (SM4) goes up. It's all going on right next door. Right now we're hot on building the wiring harness for LRO (Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter), the satellite that's going to map out the Moon and get us ready to head out there again. After it's 14+ month mission they're going to crash it into the Moon and study the impact. That's cool.
What are you developing for the Hubble? I'm guessing it's for SM4 also?


Okay, onto the taillights. I used Yellowstone's car to PS (I hope you don't mind). In an ideal world they would look like this...



However, that would be practically impossible without molding new lenses, I think. The IROC tails have a much different curve than the Fiero's at the sides. Something more along the lines of this would be more feasible, even though it doesn't look perfect. I think it would get the point across though? ...




And for reference, here's Yellowstone's car unmolested. This wouldn't really go with my theme very well, though it looks great on his car...

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 09-15-2007).]

quote Originally posted by ALLTRBO: jscott, okay. I'd wire it up with a thirdgen cluster, though. I... What are you developing for the Hubble? I'm guessing it's for SM4 also?

The Third gen should wire up with no difficulties. You can probably do it in a couple of hours. My plug and play kits take a while to do because I have to manufacture all the Fiero side connectors from canabalized switches and clusters. LOL I'm anxious to see your project completed. I like the 3rd gen IROC.

I am barely involved in SM4 but I'm supplying the batteries for the soft capture mechanism. Someone else in my office is more involved in the tool development than me, (luckily)

quote Originally posted by ALLTRBO: Love it or hate it, here's my idea.

It is a great idea, definitely one of a kind - but why put all the time and especially the $$ into it, when you can probably buy a fine example of a third gen IROC-Z for much less $$?

An original, unmolested IROC-Z would likely appreciate in value more than a one off "IROC Fiero".

I was receiving similar responses on thirdgen.org. Here's why.

1) You mentioned it... no one else would have one like this.
2) We don't build these cars (Camaros or Fieros) to appreciate in value, we build them to enjoy.
3) Building them is half the fun.
4) Fine examples are everywhere. I already have a pretty fine example (with just a little more work)...



...and that pretty fine example will spin the 275's through the first three gears and into fourth being that the heavy stuff is waaaay up there over the wrong wheels. This goes along with...

5), 6), 7)

quote Originally posted by ALLTRBO: ...weighs ~3150 lbs. (~3100 with alum. heads) fully optioned that has a better handling suspension ... and a stronger chassis than a thirdgen.

Don't get me wrong, I love IROC's, but this would be my IROC. My better performing IROC-GT.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 09-16-2007).]

Cool stuff. Bubbajoexxx has a Northstar/Porsche stretch which is I believe 12" inches.

quote Originally posted by ALLTRBO: I already have a pretty fine example (with just a little more work)...

Yes, yes it is a great 3rd gen you have! I didn't realize the earlier engine pix was your car. I also own the 3rd gen pictured below. If you enjoy working on em, more power to ya. I have lost some of my motivation to wrench on cars as I get older.

Nice Z ya got there.
Yep, it's mine. Too bad I can't drive it because it won't pass MD inspection. I built it planning on living in OK, but plans change. 20 year old cars can get "historic" tags and bypass emissions and inspections, but the IROC-Z has a bit over 2 more to go. :/ In about 3 MONTHS all Fiero's are historic here.
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Now on the subject of trannies-
I decided a 930 4-speed would be the way to go for this powerplant vs. a G50 5-speed. Not only is the 4-speed a good bit stronger, lighter, and a little cheaper, but the gear ratios are MUCH more suited to a 5500rpm engine making gobs of low and midrange turbo TPI torque. I could deal with losing another gear for all the benefits.

However... These things are still EXPENSIVE to do right compared to typical RWD American trannies. I've been looking around and it seems the going rate for a nice rebuilt 930 mid-engine conversion is around $6000 - $9000 all said and done depending on options. I could do the entire rest of the car for half that with what I have. As has always been in my mind, any realistic future for this concept banks on the cost of the tranny setup as I can't justify spending a ton of money on it (life and marraige say there's more important things now). Yes that's not much compared to building a mid-engine kit car or the like, but that's one of the intoxicating draws of this car to me, most of it could be with relatively little cost, just lots of work.

Does anybody have any helpful monetary info about the 930 trannies that I haven't found yet? Any longitudinal MANUAL alternatives that can handle the power?

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 09-18-2007).]

For about $9k you can get everything for the tranny including the adapter, clutch, flywheel, shifter and selector cables, shifter, and have the transmission changed for mid engine set up, from http://www.renegadehybrids.com/indexx.html

My questions is, are you planning on taking the engine out of the iroc or building another one just like it?

If you build a new engine and have both, why would you ever drive the camaro anymore

Chris

Yeah, that's one of the places I was looking at. I hear they do really good work and know their stuff, but you pay for what you get. I could cut cost off the $9k by fabbing up some of the stuff myself, but a lot of it seems fairly complex, and that's still a lot.

They say it'll work just fine flipped over instead of having the diff turned around, but I want to know if it would actually handle as much shock loading that way. From what I understand the gears are immersed in oil right side up in this tranny, and they aren't when flipped. I read that filling it with more fluid and adding a breather setup will allow this to work just fine, though.
While I wouldn't plan on 4k clutch dumps on slicks or anything, I wouldn't want to baby it either. One plus of the TT setup is that it makes it's peak torque after the turbos have spooled meaning there would be only N/A torque or thereabouts being transmitted between shifts, instead of the full 650-700 lb/ft. Peak N/A torque was 330 lb/ft at the wheels through the T56 on the dyno (I haven't had it dyno'd turbo'd yet). The tranny should handle that, but still makes me nervous a bit. Once in gear and rolling a tranny will handle much higher torque values.


Yes, I would plan on using the engine from the Camaro (with a few minor tweaks), it would be the only way I could justify building this. I'd have to cannibalize/sell the rest of the car as well. :/
You are right though, why would I ever want to drive a heavier, lesser handling, more spin-prone car with the same powerplant?

I started a Porsche transaxle info thread, post in it if you know more, or read it if you don't but want to.
//www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/086306.html

Onto the concept again (even if everyone lost some interest it's nice to have a record of thoughts here for me, but hopefully some of you are still a bit intrigued).

I think I found cheap stock wheels that can be made to look somewhat like the single line IROC-Z's (paint centercaps, add lines and shadows) but will bolt onto stock Fiero suspension.
They're the VW "Bravo" wheels from 01-02 GTI's and Jettas or 03-04 Beetle's. 17x7.5 w/35mm offset on 5x100, 22.5 lbs (I know...but still lighter than the IROC 16x8's that won't fit anyway). The front offset is an issue with an '88 as always, but less-than-optimal scrub radius won't kill me if I use 'vette power steering (Why not? The pump is already there...)
I'd use these with appropriate tires on a stock '88 GT (I just may for sure), then widen the rears for the IROC-GT (about $200/wheel) to 9.5" and put appropriate tires on that. (295/40 rear, 235/45 front I think).

Here's the stock wheel-


Photoshop to come later...

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 09-24-2007).]

Put a fiero front clip on a camaro with the notch back window replacement and mod the rear bumper to look more fieroish. I think it would look nice and be a little difficult and easier to work on. Also it would be faster than a fiero with a nice 350,383, or 427 and a th350 or 400 and take every bit of abuse or you can go 200-4r and about 600hp with a trans brake and run 10s. I miss my camaro but im like 5'9 and I can't see the nose very well and its a large car to me but man they can be made fast with 3.73-4.11 posi and a simple small block so dollar for dollar its almost as good as a fox body mustang.

That would be interesting, but precisely the opposite of what I want this to be and to do.

You should photoshop it just to see what it would look like.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 09-25-2007).]

quote Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

This is cool. Kinda reminds me of a DMC DeLorean

if you where closer i would have a hood for you (it started life as an IROC hood)... Lookin to trade for a stock hood plus a little cash, i decided i would like a GT40 style vent or something else...

quote Originally posted by Austrian Import: This is cool. Kinda reminds me of a DMC DeLorean

Heh, yeah IROC's got Delorean-ish taillights. I guess they do look a little similar, but the Camaro's are closer.

quote Originally posted by SLOWnSTEADY: if you where closer i would have a hood for you (it started life as an IROC hood)... Lookin to trade for a stock hood plus a little cash, i decided i would like a GT40 style vent or something else...

Thanks for the offer, but read whereatt's post above and my response to it. Your hood seems well put together though, props. Good luck with the new hood project.

You were asking in my post what size welder would be needed to weld the frame together, I just bought a 110 amp 240 volt mig welder from Harbor Freight and was told that it would be more then enough. You just have to keep most of your heat on the 1/8" wall tubing then on the 14 gauge frame. I wanted there to be no chance of the splice to flex that is why I did all the welding beyond just at the ends of the cut.

Can I play for old times sake...I was an old-timer at thirdgen.org, back in the day and this thread brought up good old memories of my baby...So for old time sake, here she is (hope noone minds me butting in)


89 Formula, built to the hilt...

Bob

quote Originally posted by HTXtremes: You were asking in my post what size welder would be needed to weld the frame together, I just bought a 110 amp 240 volt mig welder from Harbor Freight and was told that it would be more then enough. You just have to keep most of your heat on the 1/8" wall tubing then on the 14 gauge frame. I wanted there to be no chance of the splice to flex that is why I did all the welding beyond just at the ends of the cut.

220V welder you mean? I keep looking at 110V welders for simplicity and cost but more and more I want to get one that I can use for anything I'll be doing for the next several years. It seems 220V welders are the way to go. More available power and higher duty cycles sound like nice things.


RCR, nice Formy! It looks very good with the aftermarket GFX. I'm also an old time member of TGO. Not from the very beginning, but close to it. I've gone through several thirdgens since I first joined, heh. I like my current one the best, but now that I have real power I don't have any real traction. Seems like a lose-lose situation. :/ (No DR's or slicks, I want it to turn fast too). There is a solution, though. That's why I hate these dern Fieros, you can just do so much to them.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 09-30-2007).]

you can do more to a camaro than you can to a fiero. Swap in a 4 link with a 12 bolt and shave some time off your 1/4. Third gens can do about anything a fiero can and where the fiero is great for auto X and SCCA the Camaro can run 10's or lower on a 3spd auto and on a budget and 5spd, 6spd manual and the 3-4spd auto conversion is a one day modification unlike a fiero.

I was sort of generalizing, but not totally.

You didn't do more to a Camaro than you can to a Fiero, you just turned it into a drag racer and killed some cornering.

Go the other way and build a TT Camaro for cornering with a roll cage and SFC's for any kind of chassis stiffness, decent size wheels and "high performance" tires and all the usual cornering suspension mods and you have a car that'll spin the rears at almost any usable speed.

Build it to corner mildly while having a bit of drag racing prowess then you have a car that'll get smoked on the straights by any drag-minded car and smoked in the twisties by a stock-suspended '88 GT with any V6 better than the 2.8.

Now take an '88 Fiero and make it a tad bit longer to accompany a Camaro-like drivetrain (powerful and bulletproof) with some minor chassis bracing while doing a few cornering mods and it'll smoke a stock-suspended '88 GT with any engine swap around the twisties and it'll smoke the Camaro on the straights. I could see bottom 11's or better on good "high performance" 17" street tires from 500whp and 3150 lbs (dry) in this config. I think it'd spin through first if not finessed, but not only would it still be pulling harder than the Camaro spinning through first, I don't think it'd have nearly as much problem hooking second+. [/benchracing]

What can you do to a Camaro than you can't to a Fiero? Honestly you can do anything to any car, but nothing lends itself to changes as easily as a Fiero. Unbolt body plastic, bolt on new one, voila, entirely different look. Unbolt engine, almost bolt in many others transversely, voila, more power. Extend 4 little frame rails and a cradle, voila, different wheelbase. Add said frame extension and a Porsche tranny with any killer engine, voila, standard-shift power handling capability.
Nothing listed is nearly as easy in an F-body except the last one. That's all I meant.


I want to eat my cake too, dangit!

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 10-01-2007).]