Bryce: I'm assuming that you are talking all 15" sizes. If you were running the Getrag trans with the 225-50 tires in the rear, you would (in theory) reach 145 mph in 4th gear (at 7000 rpm). Hey, that high reving 3.4 TDC sounds better all the time.
Yes, sorry for not clarifying. I think 15" wheels are the only way to go in a spec class. Cheap, easy to find, and lightweight. Go any lower (14s) and you either have too much sidewall and reduce feedback or have low profile but you go through tires faster.
I agree, the 3.4TDC/DOHC is a very logical (and attractive) choice for a low budget Fiero racecar. Of course, I would agree because I came to that conclusion before I bought all my parts and started building it. It's not the ultimate racing engine (I believe the Northstar would be as far as transverse setups go), but it gets the job done for very little money.
Bryce 88 GT
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01:38 AM
FierOmar Member
Posts: 1639 From: Glendale, California, USA Registered: Dec 2001
Good tire choice... happens to be the exact sizes I have on the sports racer. There was an interesting thread a few month back relating the Fiero’s handling. The general conclusion is that on the Fiero, the width of the rear tire should be about 10-15% greater than the width of the front tires. Quoting Will on 7/28/03: “...when the tire width matches the weight distribution, the CT [Center of Traction] is coincident with the CG [Center of Gravity].” As I understand, having the CT “coincident” with the CG is ideal.
A couple questions come to mind. Would the use of 15" wheels allow you to use the brake upgrade that you desire? How about with the 88 chassis?
With such a light car, the stock '88 brakes with some good pads would be fine. My 88 GT (the heaviest Fiero!) did fine at Waterford with well maintained brakes and Carbotech pads. Losing a few hundred pounds makes a huge difference in the braking ability of the car, I'm guessing the cars should get down to at least 2400 pounds or so in race trim. If I were to use an early chassis, I'd go with the '88 rear cradle and Beretta brake swap if it were allowed. Those will easily fit within 15" wheels.
This is assuming we're talking about the "entry level" spec class, where speeds probably wouldn't get above 100 much at all. With a higher performance class at higher top speeds, it's a whole new ballgame.
Bryce 88 GT
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06:11 PM
FierOmar Member
Posts: 1639 From: Glendale, California, USA Registered: Dec 2001
Hello Ok I have a question what specs do we need for building a roll cage as I contacted doug chase about building one and he needs some guidelines maybe SCCA or NHRA rules could apply what do you think. Also removing the back window for bars to go to the rear struts is that something that we can do. thanks Norm
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11:34 PM
Feb 2nd, 2004
FierOmar Member
Posts: 1639 From: Glendale, California, USA Registered: Dec 2001
Take a look at NASA's rules: http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/ccr.pdf The list of safety equipment required in every car starts on page 57 of their rules; roll cages are covered on page 60 et seq. You will note that the Fiero as well as the Porsche 914 is exempt from the rear bracing bar requirement. Instead a "Petty bar" is used.
It is my understanding the NASA's rules parallel those of SCCA, and cars that are qualified to race in SCCA events will likely pass NASA tech. Alan Hamilton was running an 88 Fiero in the San Franscisco Region. I think I saw something from him indication that he would be at the 20th event. Perhaps you saw him there. Both Doug and Alan have been contributors on the Fiero Racing List (a Yahoo Groups list dedicated for those interested in racing the Fiero).
Forget NHRA rules for cages. Their cages generally do not comply with NASA/SCCA rules.
------------------ FierOmar
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01:27 AM
Nashco Member
Posts: 4144 From: Portland, OR Registered: Dec 2000
O.K., let's talk upgrade for a minute. Which wheels? Which tires? What brake upgrade, if any?
I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the Beretta upgrade is not needed in the rear if the 88 cradle is used on the early chassis.
I wasn't clear enough; I meant I'd use an '88 rear cradle and Beretta brakes on the front of an early chassis.
Upgrades? I'm steering clear of that pit, now, rather than start any more debates. Let's build one class at a time. I would help to pound out some in-depth details, rules, etc. for the class if there was more interest. I can't believe more people haven't replied to this thread, apparently nobody is willing to spend 5 grand on a Fiero to go racing.
Bryce 88 GT
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01:06 PM
FierOmar Member
Posts: 1639 From: Glendale, California, USA Registered: Dec 2001
Because of the limitations imposed by the various SCCA classifications, it has been my opinion that a lot a people have discounted the possibility of racing a Fiero. On the other hand, NASA will allow us to create our own Fiero class with as few as 6-8 cars on the starting grid. NASA general competition rules provide a basic framework for all classes (e.g. see my last post). Individual class rules are found in the various supplements which are orgainzed by individual class. I will start to write a set of [proposed] rules for the Fiero challenge.
------------------ FierOmar
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01:19 PM
normsf Member
Posts: 1682 From: mishawaka, In Registered: Oct 2003
There's enough effort trying to spearhead this project, just no SUPPORT. Where is everybody? I just don't understand, this is so cheap for how much fun it would be on the track.
Bryce 88 GT
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11:33 PM
Feb 5th, 2004
FierOmar Member
Posts: 1639 From: Glendale, California, USA Registered: Dec 2001
Bryce: Quoting you from prior thread on 10/23/03: "Pretty interesting stuff George. I read through the rules this morning; it looks to be exactly like you said, anybody can start for under 5 grand! I'm willing to bet those willing to work for it could get the car started for MUCH less than that even. I think if I was going to do it, I could be very competitive for 5 grand, which is ridiculously cheap for a race car."
I have looked through the Fiero Racing List and haven't seen those proposed rules. Can you point me to the correct message number(s)?
If you have followed the various threads on that list, you will have a better understanding of why NASA offers a better opportunity than SCCA to create a Fiero spec class.
------------------ FierOmar
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11:06 AM
PFF
System Bot
blackrams Member
Posts: 31841 From: Hattiesburg, MS, USA Registered: Feb 2003
A few comments, I don't pretend to be a competition or racing expert. But I would love an opportunity to put my Fiero (s) on the track. I totally understand that if I put my stock T Top 2.8 L on the track and there is a 300 horespower monster on the same track that I am not going to be able to compete with him/her. But I'm not intending to or pretending to be able to compete with the "monster". I believe I represent the majority of "average/normal" Fiero owners that would love to put our cars on the track but if I am required to build a race Fiero in order to go to the track to participate, I'll probably be just an observer. Now I know that not every Fiero owner has four Formulas, and not every Fiero owner has the engine combinations that I currently posses, but, the point still stands. the average Fiero person is pretty much stuck with what he has and doesn't want to nor can they afford to start building a race Fiero. Most of us don't give a hoot about points, we just want to be able to go out and run and do it safely. Yeah, it would be great to have an honary dinner and receive a huge trophy at the end of the season stating to the world that I'm the best/fastest Fiero driver out there. But honestly, those kind of awards always go to the guys that have the budgets. One question still exists in my mind and I'm not trying to be critical, but if's it's head to head competitive racing you want, then by all means set up the rules that way but you'll find a bunch of us small guys sitting in the stands and only a small number of folks that can go out and race which in the end will end up killing the whole idea. As I stated in an earlier post, with the limited number of Fieros out there, (remembering this kind of racing will effectively lower that number in time due to incidents), if you make it too restrictive/costly, you will have a very small number of folks that can race and a large number of us want to be's. I guess that same thing applies to NASCAR though and it's wildly popular. I just want to be able to run and do it safely, you could very easily legislate me out of that opportunity and I wanted you to be aware that I am not the only one in that boat. So what if an 84 duke powered 3 spd auto pulls out to run against my 3800SC or any of my other cars, that person isn't really racing against me and my car, he's out there racing himself and the clock, seeing what he can do and trying to improve. I doubt that I would ever take my T Top to the track to run, but I would like to be able to run it if I choose to. If the other guy has better braking or acceleration, then I guess he'll get to the finish line before me. I'm not advocating that all should be put into one class, I'm also not saying that anyone could just pull some piece of junk out onto a course, but please, the little guy can run what he brung within reason. We all don't have budgets that will allow Fiero racing, but most of us would still like to be able to run for fun. Just my $.02 worth. Happy Fieroing. I hope this makes sense.
------------------ Ron 88 Formula, 4.9, auto, daily driver 88 Formula, 3800 SCII/4T65E Swap in Process, almost done. 88 Formula, 5 Spd, 3.4 TDC Swap in Process, just started. 88 Formula, Stock, 5 Spd, T Top, Special Days Only!
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 02-05-2004).]
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12:35 PM
normsf Member
Posts: 1682 From: mishawaka, In Registered: Oct 2003
Hello. I couldnt agree more with you guys, now lets get something down on paper with rules we all can live with to race against each other or the clock so we can do it safely and still have fun. Id like to use my 3.4dohc.5spd getrag, and tilt front end and will build the roll cage to SCCA specs which NASA seems to agree with maybe we can get something happening late summer or fall depending where an event may take place. thanks Norm
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01:07 PM
FierOmar Member
Posts: 1639 From: Glendale, California, USA Registered: Dec 2001
Blackrams: That's another nice thing about NASA... they usually run a High Performance Driving Event (HPDE) in conjunction with their race events. Anyone who wants to test the capabilities of his (or her) Fiero can take it on the track so long as it meets the minimal safety standards. Again, the HPDE is not a race, but more like a time trial with restricted "passing" zones, all of which is intended to provide the opportunity for performance driving under a controlled environment. I have seen Vipers and Vettes participating in these events as well as Civics and Minis. The URL for NASA was listed a few posts earlier. Check out their rules for HPDE. Although your car would not meet NASA's rules for racing, it should qualify for HPDE. BTW, as I understand it, the upcoming Wheatstock event will be more akin to the HPDE than a true race.
------------------ FierOmar
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05:37 PM
Feb 6th, 2004
Nashco Member
Posts: 4144 From: Portland, OR Registered: Dec 2000
Scroll down and you will see "SPEC FIERO.doc" dated 10/22/2002 and posted by cadero2dmax. Take two lefts and turn right on the first dirt road, if you see a bridge you went too far. Or something like that.
If you still can't find the file, I can email it to you, I've got it on my hard drive. I had forgotten that George actually had some proposed rules until I re-read my post the other day. There are a few minor disagreements I have, but they are exactly that...minor.
I don't think balancing/blueprinting should be allowed (Spec Miata doesn't, allows more power for more $, not in the spirit of the class). I don't like the, "modification of the resistance values of the sensors that feed the computer," being allowed, as it is fairly pointless and the chip can be reprogrammed anyway. There should be either all stock injection controls (very hard to monitor) or no limitation to injection controls as long as the stock type components (sensors, injectors, etc.) are used in their original position and function. I also think that the stock manifolds should be required, but may be ported; all the Fieros came with tubular headers, so there's no way to do major porting, but it allows the *horrible* craftsmanship on the headers to be taken care of (the V6's have a particularly large amount of excess tubing in the flow path, basically allowing a $20 and 4 hour job to gain 2-3hp and ft-lbf torque). I believe that stock type water pump should be required. I think removing the heater core and hoses should be allowed, as this has negligible performance gains but allows for a safer, easier to maintain car by reducing the potential of broken components and spilled coolant. I don't like wheel spacers...at all. I don't even know why they would be considered given that the maximum wheel width is 7" in the rules. Why force the removal of driver's window, but require the passenger window stay in place (as well as door panel)....broken glass can fly that three feet! Molding/trim pieces can be a pain to find, and can come off in racing OFTEN....why would they be required other than for looks? Why allow an optional on board fire suppression system, but require it must be larger than the standard fire extinguisher...why not a smaller one if it's optional?
The rules contradict themselves about what can touch the ground when a tire goes flat (exhaust, etc.).
I'm torn between allowing autos; I think such a situation should require special permission, such as those with disabilities that keep them from driving a manual. The potential of fluid loss in an automatic is much higher than with a manual, and fluid loss on a race track is BAD news.
Bryce 88 GT
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12:54 AM
FierOmar Member
Posts: 1639 From: Glendale, California, USA Registered: Dec 2001
It's not the ultimate racing engine (I believe the Northstar would be as far as transverse setups go), but it gets the job done for very little money.
