Let me clarify that, obviously something small, like a quad 4, will fit more easily, but it has the wrong bell housing bolt pattern. I am looking for information on which swaps require the least modifications to the frame. If it will bolt in with only new motor mounts it is number one, if it requires extensive fabrication or modification then it is off the list. I am not referring to mechanicals such as flywheel and clutch, after all only the DOHC has been offered with a manual transmission, isn't that correct?

So here is the list (note my car is a 1985 Iron Duke 5 speed):
- the DOHC 3.4 V6 (Twin Dual Cam??)
- the 3800 (SC or not)
- the Caddy 4.5/4.9
- FWD 60 degree 2.8, 3.1 or 3.4

I am leaving out SBCs 4.3s and Quad 4s because they all require an adapter kit. Are there any other valid choices I have missed?

This is just for curiousity for the moment, that is why I am posting here and not in the tech forum, but in the future, who knows?

Ira

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The Iron Duke Resource Site

Sig design by MinnGreenGT

The hardest is front engine..

IMO

DOHC 3.4 v6, high rpm, high maint mtr, suits a fiero perfectly. can be pricy.

3800 s/c, excellent torque, tonnes of h/p too, suits a fiero perfectly. usually big $'s

4.9, tonnes of torque, good h/p, v8 sound and suits a fiero perfectly. Cheap, don't rebuild just put it in and if it fails buy another.

3.1, 3.4 bolts right in.

Pete

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Pete has the engines down right. You also need to consider availability of engines and service.

Good 4.9 or 3800 engines are laying all over the ground in London.

There should be a lot of 3.1 cars around. No matter what you pick you'll need v-6 items to make it fit your car.

Personally, I would pick a 3800 n/a (s/c if you happen to find one). Probably not a lot of extra work in a 4 to 6 upgrade, other than exhaust, and a nice upgrade for a Fiero.

I would reject a 4.9 on insurance purposes and no offence meant, a 3.4 DOHC is just too darn complex for normal NFLD living.

Gary

Is the 3800 n/a really worth it? I mean wouldnt it just be better to go the extra distance and get the supercharger? After all you have to do pretty much the same amount of work to get the engine to work in the Fiero, may as well go with more HP and Torque right?

I mean 205 HP is nothing to shake a stick at either but how much torque does this engine give anyways?

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Alex

1987 GT 2.8 V6

the 3.1/3.4 is probably THE easiest as these engines blocks are identical to the Fieros 2.8 (except the starter bolt hole on the 3.4) and you can even use the Fieros upper intake manifold.

Tyler

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85 LT4 GT
Custom Everything
in progress

I got one of the first kits from IRM for the Quad 4 conversion.I"ve had a Quad in my Fiero for over 8 years and it has been the easiest swap that there is.
I"m not sure what adapter you are talking about.
If you throw out Fieros tranny and use the one that comes with the Quad it just bolts right in.
If you want a real screamer use the W41/W42 Quad found in Olds 442 and hold on!!!
My W41 after mild polishing and tuning and with a red line of 7400RPM puts out a screaming 220hp.
It cost me under $1500 to put together.

LT1

quote Originally posted by FieroBUZZ: I would reject a 4.9 on insurance purposes and no offence meant, Gary

I don't understand this comment? Do you mean that after the swap you are going to call up your insurance agent and request that he raise your rates because you have swapped your 4 cylinder for a V8? How else are they going to know, (or care)?

we did and they insure the car for the book value, if you get it appraised for a different value then you will pay a different rate. They did not care the engine size.

While the Q4 has a different bellhousing pattern, it also uses the Getrag transaxle. If you find a Q4 and transmission complete, the trans will bolt to stock Fiero mounts.

So if I can find a rusted Beretta GTZ, or Grand Am GT or any other HO Quad 4 with 5 speed, all I will need to do is transfer the complete drivetrain and electronics to the fiero? With Rodney Dickmans shift adapter, can I use my Isuzu shifter? I like the Quad 4 idea since I am not as interested in absolute power, I want a good handling car with a sporty engine. I like the fact that 4 cylinder engines are easier to work on in the confines of the Fiero engine compartment.

Ira

Ira

quote Originally posted by ThaFieroMunk: Is the 3800 n/a really worth it? I mean wouldnt it just be better to go the extra distance and get the supercharger? After all you have to do pretty much the same amount of work to get the engine to work in the Fiero, may as well go with more HP and Torque right? I mean 205 HP is nothing to shake a stick at either but how much torque does this engine give anyways?

I think the highest torque 3800NA is the S2 at 230 ft-lbs. The SC has 280. If you are going to put in a 3800, go the distance and get an SC. It's about the same effort.

I don't see the 3.4L DOHC being a high maintenance engine but it does help to change the oil regularly, watch the distributor/oil pump drive plug's o-ring for leaks and check the timing belt. There are many DOHC's out there with tons of miles on them. The fit it good other than the rear plugs being a bit tricky to replace unless your lower the rear of the cradle.

If I do another swap, I'll do a DOHC again. The SC's were fun but I prefer the DOHC.

I've driven a few V8 Fiero's (SBC) and liked none of them. I haven't driven a 4.9L though. Might be ok.

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 07-27-2003).]

quote Originally posted by TK: I think the highest torque 3800NA is the S2 at 230 ft-lbs. The SC has 280. If you are going to put in a 3800, go the distance and get an SC. It's about the same effort. I don't see the 3.4L DOHC being a high maintenance engine but it does help to change the oil regularly, watch the distributor/oil pump drive plug's o-ring for leaks and check the timing belt. There are many DOHC's out there with tons of miles on them. The fit it good other than the rear plugs being a bit tricky to replace unless your lower the rear of the cradle. If I do another swap, I'll do a DOHC again. The SC's were fun but I prefer the DOHC. I've driven a few V8 Fiero's (SBC) and liked none of them. I haven't driven a 4.9L though. Might be ok. [This message has been edited by TK (edited 07-27-2003).]

Just curious, what didn't you like about the SBC Fieros you drove?

quote Originally posted by Quad GT: I got one of the first kits from IRM for the Quad 4 conversion.I"ve had a Quad in my Fiero for over 8 years and it has been the easiest swap that there is. I"m not sure what adapter you are talking about. If you throw out Fieros tranny and use the one that comes with the Quad it just bolts right in. If you want a real screamer use the W41/W42 Quad found in Olds 442 and hold on!!! My W41 after mild polishing and tuning and with a red line of 7400RPM puts out a screaming 220hp. It cost me under $1500 to put together.

Yeah, try to find some *reasonably* priced W41 cams. I am just going with the stock HO cams for now (swap is still in progress for those wondering). I have about $850 into it so far, not including price of Fiero) . $250 for a whole '90GTZ, and $600 in parts and block work so far. I am doing everything myself but the boring of the block, and the valve grind job.

Ok Monza,

You cant use the Isuzu shifter especially if you have the 4 speed. Just get the 5 speed Getrag shifter and install it and thats all. You obviously have to mount new motor mounts and put in a new fuel H.O. pump. Its basically a simple conversion. Im in the process of doing a second conversion and so far its going very easily. Doing the exhaust is going to be a bit difficult but nothing out of the reach of a good exhaustt shop.

Thanks Quad GT, BTW all the Isuzus are 5 speeds, the 4 speeds are Muncie transmissions. On the same basic idea here, what about the 2.4 Twin Cam, I know it loses at least 30hp from the HO Quad 4, but it is still a 50%+ improvement over the Iron Duke and may be easier to find. Other than the lack of power is there any particular problem with this engine, they may be easier to find so I want to know if it is worth it.

I have heard of some head gasket problems with the Quad 4s, anything to that claim? If that is the case has it been fixed in the later 2.4?

No flames here guys, I am just gathering information and confirming (or dispelling) myths.

Ira

If your looking for an engine back in NFLD, try autoparts network in St. John's. www.autopartsnetwork.ca I checked there one time and they had both a series 2 3800 supercharged and a 3.4 TDC/DOHC, already pulled and ready to be picked up. I never checked on Quad 4's, they compression test there engines and usually come with a warranty.

Just a bump to see if anyone has used the 150hp 2.4 Twin Cam, it seems that it is basically a Quad 4 with less power but better NVH. 150hp would make me happy so I was wondering if there are any complications I should know about. Meanwhile I will be watching for late 80s early 90s HO Quad 4s in rust buckets so that I can get the entire package.

Ira

BTW does anyone know of a website which has details of the entire quad 4 swap, preferebly with pictures. This seems like another swap I can add to my possibles, list along with the 4.9. The quads and 2.4s should give decent gas mileage as well.

[This message has been edited by Monza76 (edited 07-27-2003).]

quote Originally posted by Monza76: Just a bump to see if anyone has used the 150hp 2.4 Twin Cam, it seems that it is basically a Quad 4 with less power but better NVH. 150hp would make me happy so I was wondering if there are any complications I should know about. Meanwhile I will be watching for late 80s early 90s HO Quad 4s in rust buckets so that I can get the entire package. Ira [This message has been edited by Monza76 (edited 07-27-2003).]

Ira, Why go thru the trouble of swapping out the Duke for a Quad4 to gain 50 hp or so? After reading here it seems that for less money you can hop up the stock Duke and get 130-150hp with no conversion headaches.

I am going to work on my Duke a little but If I do a swap Im gonna do a SWAP (SD4 or Something with 300+ HP!)

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87 2M4 5 spd "Almost" Daily Driver with working A/C!
86 "PoSE" Needs every thing but a Sunroof Seal!!!
http://home.cfl.rr.com/fierose

Kento, you are right, I am just testing the waters. I would prefer a 4 cylinder engine (although the 4.9 is tempting) and a reliable 130hp Iron duke which will stay together with regular 5000rpm shifts, would suit me just fine. The Quad 4 seems like the only other 4 cylinder alternative, the advantage is that the Quad has nearly 2000rpm of usable revs beyond the Duke. I will probably keep asking these questions and do nothing but keep my Duke alive, but it is fun to know things.

Keep me informed of any work you do on your Duke, meanwhile I am going to keep my eyes open for an S10 block with a side mount water pump (if such an animal actually exists, it may be more like the search for the Loch Ness monster) and if I ever find one I will work on a much more powerful Duke, 150hp seems quite reasonable then. It is easy to get 300hp from a 5L Ford V8, so it reasons that it should be possible to get 150hp from a 2.5 four of similar technology.

I just want to explore all of my options.

Ira

quote Originally posted by Monza76: Just a bump to see if anyone has used the 150hp 2.4 Twin Cam, it seems that it is basically a Quad 4 with less power but better NVH. 150hp would make me happy so I was wondering if there are any complications I should know about. Meanwhile I will be watching for late 80s early 90s HO Quad 4s in rust buckets so that I can get the entire package. Ira BTW does anyone know of a website which has details of the entire quad 4 swap, preferebly with pictures. This seems like another swap I can add to my possibles, list along with the 4.9. The quads and 2.4s should give decent gas mileage as well.

The 2.4 IS a quad4, just with a different name so people wont assosiate it with head gasket failure. It has some minoot (sp?) changes, but is the same basic motor.

Detailed Q4 swap sites? HA! They all turn up a "page not found", all that I could find anyways. There are a few with some basic pics, but nothing in great detail.

Well I might as well continue gathering info:

How hard is it to change spark plugs on a:
- 3800 (SC or not shouldn't matter)?
- 4.9 Caddy?
- FWD 3.1 moved to the rear (since my car is a 2.5 I would need all of the intake etc.. from the FWD donor.

Ira

quote Originally posted by ThaFieroMunk: Is the 3800 n/a really worth it? I mean wouldnt it just be better to go the extra distance and get the supercharger? After all you have to do pretty much the same amount of work to get the engine to work in the Fiero, may as well go with more HP and Torque right? I mean 205 HP is nothing to shake a stick at either but how much torque does this engine give anyways?

A 3800 Series II N/A engine in a Fiero mated to a 4T60-E is a solid mid-14 sec performer that you can run 87 octane thru and get 33+ MPG on the HWY. 205HP, 230TQ.

Of course, I am waiting to see a few 3400 V6 (97-up GM minivan engine) swaps done. Those engines are supposed to put out 185 HP and 205+tq. With their aluminum heads, I believe they are the lightest V6 available and should sport low 14 sec timeslips even with an auto trans.

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1987 Fiero Coupe 3800 Series II Intercooled Turbo
1987 Trans Am GTA 5.7L Superram 4L60-E
1985 Fiero SE 2.8 (soon to have an L36)

Fiero-related Conversions Performed:
1985 SE 3800 Series 1 SC 4T60-E
1987 Coupe 3800 Series II Turbocharged 4T60-E
1987 SE 3.4 TDC 5-speed
1984 Coupe SBC V8 non-OD to 4T60 OD swap, electric power steering install
1985 SE 3800 Series II Supercharged 4T60-E

http://dtcc.cz28.com

So it is actually easier to change plugs on the 90degree 3800 than it is on the 60degree 2.8? Interesting, I had always thought it would be worse. I need to look at some 3800 ehgines again. BTW how hard is it to mate a 3800 to a manual transmission?

The 3400 minivan engine is a 60degree as well isn't it? Could it use a stock 2.8 or 3.1 flywheel to mate to the manual transmission?

People keep giving me new choices.

Ira

BTW no talk about 3.4L iron head Camaro motors please, I do not have a 2.8, I have the 2.5L 4cylinder. To me the minivan engine, complete with its electronics would be an easier package for a swap.

[This message has been edited by Monza76 (edited 07-27-2003).]

quote Originally posted by Monza76: So it is actually easier to change plugs on the 90degree 3800 than it is on the 60degree 2.8? Interesting, I had always thought it would be worse. I need to look at some 3800 ehgines again. BTW how hard is it to mate a 3800 to a manual transmission?

Series II engines are easier to do spark plugs in than series I because the block is smaller. The 3800 will bolt right up to any GM FWD manual trans but doing the clutch will require a little work.

quote The 3400 minivan engine is a 60degree as well isn't it? Could it use a stock 2.8 or 3.1 flywheel to mate to the manual transmission?

Yes, but no OBDII 3400 minivan PCM was ever programmed for use with a manual trans so you will need to get a PCM done.

quote Originally posted by Mastermind: Just curious, what didn't you like about the SBC Fieros you drove?

Rough and crude. I think people are much more accepting of a rough car than I am. Sure, there was pleeennntttty of power on tap but they just didn't strike me as something I'd enjoy driving around except to go out and pound on stuff. I have another car for that anyway.

I'm not at all impressed by a car that has tons of power but no finese. Not of the V8 Fiero's had that, just tons of power.

While the 3.4L DOHC has far less power, it's much funner to drive and the car keeps it's roots. I like the 3800SC next. I'd like to drive a 4.9L to see how that feels. I know many people get a woody from any V8 in a Fiero. Ooooooook. Just put an Olds 804 in there and get it over with. "My V8's bigger than your V8".

Monza I"ll find you some info on the Quad 4 conversion just give me some time. In the mean time look at Paul Jay"s Quad 4 Web Page some interesting stuff on the different Quad Fours...also www.gigaparts.com/users/fiero

Also see www.mantapart.com its a Quad 4 parts shop they make high performance stuff for the engine

You can also go to Yahoo Forums and search for Quad 4 forums .....there are a lot of used Quads you can purchase from the guys there, its a chat forum like ours here but its based just on the Quad 4. There are guys in there that have the know how and knowledge as to how do your conversion.
I go by the name quadgt in there. I just picked up a W41 from a fellow for US$300, the cams alone are worth that alone ....I got the Quad W41 along with the special gear 5 speed tranny all for 300.

quote Originally posted by Quad GT: Ok Monza, You cant use the Isuzu shifter especially if you have the 4 speed. Just get the 5 speed Getrag shifter and install it and thats all. You obviously have to mount new motor mounts and put in a new fuel H.O. pump. Its basically a simple conversion. Im in the process of doing a second conversion and so far its going very easily. Doing the exhaust is going to be a bit difficult but nothing out of the reach of a good exhaustt shop.

Aren't ALL the 5 speed shifters the same? I just thought that you couldn't use a 4 speed shifter with a 5 speed.

So Will, the 2.4 has less power but better reliability. This would suit me just fine, with a freer flowing exhaust and intake system it would probably pick up 10 hp anyway. I could check out the J-car guys to see what the latest hp tricks are for this engine. Not the 180-190hp I could expect from a 2.3HO but probably a reliable 160-170hp.

Any other comments. BTW Will, we better check out this shifter question, if you get an answer let me know.

Ira

Oh! One silly question, are the top aluminum covers necessary on these engines (you know the fancy name plate over the cam boxes), or are they just dress ups? I think the engine would look cool without it, but I was assuming that it was an integral part of the cooling or ignition suppression system. Anyone have an answer?

[This message has been edited by Monza76 (edited 07-28-2003).]

This is a 3800SC installed the clean way.

More pics > http://www.fastfieros.com/carsavailable/88GT5speed.htm

Loyde

Very nice Loyde.

yes all 5 speed fieros used the same shift assmebly, just different shift cables.

What do you mean the clean way Loyde?

quote Originally posted by TK: I'm not at all impressed by a car that has tons of power but no finese. None of the V8 Fiero's had that, just tons of power.

TK- I like your honesty on the topic It's also a pretty good description of why I do like the SBC swap - raw power, LOL!

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: This is a 3800SC installed the clean way. http://www.fastfieros.com/carsavailable/images/3800cars/88gtwhite5speed/ebay_88gt006.j pg

Loyde- what size exhaust do you have going into that muffler? ...it's huge! Also, what muffler is that anyway?

BTW: Ira, you should really see if you can locate a few owners with the swaps that you're interested in... and see if they'll take you for a ride, or even let you test drive them. It might help you make up your mind (I know it did for me).

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Looking for Fiero posters?

[This message has been edited by MinnGreenGT (edited 07-28-2003).]

Regarding the 2.4 Twin Cam, I have one in my '97 Grand Am. It's been a fine motor. It's not the fastest thing on the streets but it does keep up with traffic. It revs to 6,000 willingly, gets good gas mileage, and has decent torque. I drove it to San Diego (1,000 miles)at 80 mph and got 30 mpg. Seems to me on a twisty road its powerband would be great. Not enough power to spin out necessarily but very useable. One of the nice things about this motor is that its installed in economy cars. It didn't have some of the luxury features like passkey (at least in '97). I have no idea how hard it would be to swap but I've often thought that the 2.4 would be a great everyday driver engine.

Robert

What kind of driving do you plan to do with your car after the engine swap? There are several "easy fit" choices - but the best one depends on you. What works good at the drag strip isn't so good on the street, etc.

And BTW, your username - did you ever own a 76 Monza?