I've already started a couple other threads on a friends's recently purchased '86 with a "homebrew" SBC installation (links below)...

Questions on "universal" mini-starter for Fiero with a SBC

At what point does frame rail rust become dangerous to the integrity of a Fiero?

...but this thread pertains to something else that looks very questionable to me.

Isn't there an awful lot of sheet metal (and structural bracing) missing in this wheel well?

Is this Fiero still structurally sound after this hack job?

(If anyone has a picture of this same area unaltered, please post it.)

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 03-31-2013).]

wow. i went out and looked at mine just to be sure but it looks like one of the main structural members was cut and that piece of metal welded in. is that solid or some kind of square tubing?

just my 2 cents, but i would not trust that?

*any chance of a pic of the entire wheel well?*

[This message has been edited by etofun (edited 03-31-2013).]

Looks dangerous to me. Have a look at this drawing to see what's been done:



The green lines show the lower frame rail. It's a rectangular tube. It serves three main purposes: locate the strut tower, provide the anchor point for the rear cradle mount, and provide the main structural load path for the rear bumper.

In your photo, it appears the frame rail has been chopped away leaving only the upper wall and perhaps a return flange. It will have lost all of it's bending stiffness (ie lost any ability to control the shock tower and the cradle location) as well as having lost all of it's compression strength (rear crashworthiness).

That is quite scary... sad thing is that with his thin adapter plate, he could have ran a serpentine setup w/o any notch to the passenger side frame rail. I would suggest he swap out the accessory drive to something like this (much more compact and would allow rebuilding the lower frame rail):
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/118182.html

Then to drive his water pump, he should convert to the Archie wheel well drive (goes over/under the stock frame rail and keeps the rail intact) or switch to a remove mechanical one.

He could also just rebuilt the lower frame rail and have it kick out around the current pulley setup, something similar to this setup (a friend's 454 fiero swap):

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 04-03-2013).]

Yeah, that's pretty screwed up. I wouldn't want to drive it.

Time to take it apart and do some major reconstructive surgery. If that's the same car with the rusted out upper frame rail, it had to be done anyway. It will be a lot of work to fix that. Doesn't look like there's much left of the strut tower, either.

quote Originally posted by etofun: *any chance of a pic of the entire wheel well?*

This is the widest shot I have of the wheel well.

well whar we have here is a fiero that has a WAY worse issue than catching fire...breaking in half! I would never take that out without doing surgery to it. Any big pothole or speed bump taken too lively could possibly kill ya. especially coupled with the rusted out frame member!

quote Originally posted by Patrick: I've been talking to another friend with decent fabrication skills (but very limited time) about taking the engine/tranny out of this car and putting it into an '88 with a dead engine. However, when he saw how much of the wheel well has been removed in this Fiero to accomodate the V8 swap, he's very reluctant to have to butcher an '88 in order to swap this motor in.

If he is looking at swapping chassis, then by all means rework the accessory drive to pull it closer to the engine and greatly reduce or potentially eliminate the need for any frame modifications (but this would require a remote electric water pump). While doing the chassis swap, he could do a much better job of aligning it to the cradle as well.

The big concern would be how long has this swap been running (how many miles) and has it had a history of clutch/transmission issues. The reason I ask is that the adapter plate needed to be quite precise in locating the engine to the transmission to ensure proper alignment. Given the attention to detail and modification decisions on all the other areas of the swap, I would be highly suspect that the adapter plate was right. Typically if the adapter plate is off, it will break/wear out the hub on the clutch in a short order (under 5K miles).

This is why all the other guys at car shows laugh and are snarky to any fiero and their owners. That chop/weld abortion is just the reason....
Good luck,Patrick to your friend and his long recovery with that fiero... Like I am sure others have said,if the swap is worth saving,he needs to drop it in another spaceframe and send that one to China to be pressed into bean cans and washing machines.
Mark

quote Originally posted by etofun: wow. i went out and looked at mine just to be sure but it looks like one of the main structural members was cut and that piece of metal welded in. is that solid or some kind of square tubing?

It's just plate metal. It flexes in and out if you grab it with your hand.

I know, I know... it's really bad.

WOW. Thanks for sharing,Patrick... Sad part is someone actually DID go thru a ton of work to get this far....
I don't want to judge whoever it was... At least they had good intentions and put in the effort.. clearly a very amateur job. But obviously that set-up is going to have to be de-constructed bolt-by-bolt..
And yes the "snuggy" oil pan engine mount made me lol a little over coffee this a.m.
The adapter plate and its alignment had me just blinking at it for a few moments.. oh my....

The '88 you are looking at looks very clean! Good luck with it and hopefully it'll be a rust-free '88 SBC swap at the end of the day! Silver lining right?!


Keep us posted! This is a great thread.

quote Originally posted by Indyellowgt: The '88 you are looking at looks very clean! Good luck with it and hopefully it'll be a rust-free '88 SBC swap at the end of the day! Silver lining right?!

Interesting that you should say that. Here's why...

Both the '86 SBC Fiero and the '88 (5-spd duke with an engine "knock") belong to a friend of mine. He's ended up having more Fieros than he's comfortable with (it's a common problem with these cars ) and he offered both of these Fieros to me. I would love to have a 5-spd SBC Fiero, but this particular car is way too much of a project for me. I don't have the facilities to do frame rebuilds and/or engine swaps here. Another friend of mine stepped up to the plate and offered to help transplant the SBC into the '88 at his place. However, that was before I discovered that the entire SBC conversion (including adapter plate, motor mounts, etc) is a complete fiasco. The friend of mine who offered to help is a very busy fella and simply cannot invest the time into redoing everything that would've been required to properly do the SBC transplant into the '88. We'd basically have to start from scratch. It's not going to happen.

However, I have a basketcase 4-spd '86 GT here (gutted interior, etc) that has an apparently healthy 2.8 in it. So... the plan now is to put this engine and other associated GT "goodies" into/onto the '88 coupe. I haven't decided yet whether to use the Getrag 4-spd or the Isuzu 5-spd, but that's probably discussion for a different thread.

This should be a noticeable upgrade in power and handling compared to the '84 duke I've been using as a daily driver/autocrossing for the last three years. (Very reliable car though. I've quite enjoyed it.)

So thanks to everyone who offered opinions and advice in this thread. Much appreciated.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 04-01-2013).]

quote Originally posted by Patrick: ...but seriously, the Fiero I'm dealing with does not compare any which way with the the basket-case rustbucket that RWDPLZ resurrected.

quote Originally posted by RWDPLZ:

I hope you don't think I was mocking your Fiero in This thread. I was sincerely impressed that you wanted and were able to rebuild such a rusted out Fiero.

This SBC Fiero has a whole lot less rust, but yes, it's a basket-case for other reasons.

Maybe someone else with your skills and perseverance will come along and save it from the great scrap-heap in the sky... but it won't be me.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 04-02-2013).]

It has been an enjoyable and informative comparison in a number of ways...can't wait to find out what happens next!...

I wouldnt be particularly afraid of what you have there.. I feel like it could be signfiicantly improved if you can replace some steel back onto the parts to the "rear' of the water pump modification. Outside of the strut pocket there is not much chassis strength in that area, its mostly crash related.

quote Originally posted by Gall757: It has been an enjoyable and informative comparison in a number of ways...can't wait to find out what happens next!...

Thanks. I always try to make my posts/threads entertaining... although judging from my ratings bar, I suspect people often misinterpret my sense of humour.

I'll certainly report in this thread what becomes of the SBC Fiero.

And no doubt I'll be starting new threads regarding the '88 duke "parts car" which will be re-born with '86 GT goodies including engine and assorted body panels.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 04-02-2013).]

This install looks flawed but V8 Archie is the best guy to ask. Having done 100's of Fiero SBC swaps he can tell you exactly what you lack and what you need. There may be some tough love involved in your communications but if you expect to succeed his input will prove invaluable. If I were to do a V8 SBC type install that's who I would ask.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by Patrick: I hope you don't think I was mocking your Fiero in This thread.

No no, I just thought it ironic how the car turned out, in the end, to be in significantly worse shape than what I ended up fixing. I don't envy anyone who tries to fix that mess.

You COULD try to fix it just as practice, because frankly you really can't make it any worse. You would need an Archie kit to get the V8 setup useable.

quote If anyone reading this thread is interested in being the person to buy and rebuilt this SBC Fiero

backs away slowly

Actually I'd love to meet the guy who did it, and ask WTF he was smoking.

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: This install looks flawed but V8 Archie is the best guy to ask.

I agree, but it won't be me who'll be needing to ask the questions. I looked, I saw, I ran.

quote Originally posted by RWDPLZ: Actually I'd love to meet the guy who did it, and ask WTF he was smoking.

The car was originally from BC, so the guy probably had access to some rather potent weed.

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: I would suggest he swap out the accessory drive to something like this (much more compact and would allow rebuilding the lower frame rail): https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/065193.html

Curious as to what that link is supposed to be. That link redirects to a brake kit sale.

quote Originally posted by FieroSBF: Curious as to what that link is supposed to be. That link redirects to a brake kit sale.

lol, gotta advertise somehow....

quote Originally posted by FieroSBF: Curious as to what that link is supposed to be. That link redirects to a brake kit sale.

It was supposed to go to the thread about a serpentine belt conversion I did that remained tucked closely to the front of the engine which would greatly reduce the needed clearance on the passenger frame rail, but I linked the wrong thread some how. Here is the actual thread I wanted to reference:
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/118182.html

quote Originally posted by ericjon262: lol, gotta advertise somehow....

It was accidental, grabbed the wrong link. When I purposely make a post in someone's thread for strictly advertizing purposes, I normally include it in brackets like this:
[shameless plug] [/shameless plug]

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 04-03-2013).]

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: It was accidental, grabbed the wrong link. When I purposely make a post in someone's thread for strictly advertizing purposes, I normally include it in brackets like this: [shameless plug] [/shameless plug]

I was joking, no worries.

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: It was supposed to go to the thread about a serpentine belt conversion I did that remained tucked closely to the front of the engine which would greatly reduce the needed clearance on the passenger frame rail, but I linked the wrong thread some how. Here is the actual thread I wanted to reference.

Isn't it simpler just to hack the frame rail right out of there?

Beautiful job you did in that thread.