quote Originally posted by Big Paul: Hey guys, I'm planning on making a roll bar for my final project in metal working this year. Just a simple hoop with some sort of brace in it. I might connect it to the firewall, I'm not sure yet. This won't be anything near SCCA legal most likely as I don't want to go through my rear window to attach it to the strut tower, and I don't want to have to climb over a bar every time I get into my car. (Daily Driver). What I'm looking for is any tips/hints to make it something good. Also, all of my interior trim is out of my car, and so is my headliner. I plan to instal this stuff before I put the bar in. I got my max width 46.5" wide, 38" tall, and the glove box starts about 10" below the roof. So I am planning on subtracting an 1-1.5 inches off of my measurements and having that be the max width of the bar if that makes any sense. Also, I've seen a few styles of bars. This kind: And This kind: Which type would be better to make? The second one looks quite a bit easier... However I know that it probably isn't as wide as the other one as you would need to bring the bottom ends inward to get it inside of the seat to weld to the frame wouldn't you? If anyone could help me out a bit, It would be greatly appreciated! And If someone could take measurement of any bars they have installed currently that would be fantastic!! Thanks, Paul

This thread is now my roll bar build thread. I am going to build an SCCA legal roll bar instead of what I had previously stated. Stay tuned, I'll Try to keep you guys updated!

[This message has been edited by Big Paul (edited 04-23-2012).]

Use the 1st one as your example.
The mounting points are the ones to use. The firewall and the floor.
Mine is not in yet, but if needed I could get some measurments.

The second one, while looks ok, has that bar for mounting the 4 or 5 point harness as well as support. That may be good IF you want to use a harness. (I don't like them for the street)

P.S. put the bar in 1st.

Thanks for the reply! If you could get me measurements that would be great! I'm going to order 129" of 2" tubing .120 thick and bend it into shape, but I'm not sure exactly how long each section should be. Or if I'm using the correct size of tubing for the job. What do you mean by put the bar in first?

Thanks,
Paul

Sorry I ment to say to mount the roll bar in the interior first then put the interior back in seats, panels etc. well maybe the headliner and the side panels should go in first, but do a dry fit without everything in there.

You may even remove the carpet just to see where to drill for bolts or to weld. The 1st has the mounting plates where they should mounted. behind the seats on the floor and on the back firewall. WATCH OUT for the battery and where the water and fuel lines run under the car

What kind of measurments do you need? Like from where to where? I think the tubing size sounds about right. Is this just for show?? If so 2 would be fine, IF this is for racing, check out their requirments for the sizes.

I will measure tonight and maybe a pic if possable.

My Question would be, Does a Fiero NEED a roll bar ? the main loop in the roof behind the seats is already twice as strong as a loop of 2" steel isn't it ? maybe I'm wrong. OR, is it just for "Looks" ?

Yes this bar will mostly be for show. I don't want to have to cut holes in my rear window or hop over a bar like actual ones require. And I don't think my car will ever get fast enough that it needs an actual one with the stock 2.8. I can't afford to do an engine swap until after college and I have an actual job. Which is in a while. This was the coolest thing I could think of to make for my car out of metal that would take up the majority of a quarter of school.

The measurements I'm looking for are the height, width, and how far the two bottom parts come in to fit inside the seats (or the distance between them). Any other measurements would be handy, but these are the ones I'm looking for.

I'll make sure I don't hit any gas/water/batteries when I'm drilling. The last thing I want to do is destroy my car haha. Thanks for the heads up!

Paul

Having a roll bar that close to your head without a helmet is not safe, even if it is padded.

quote Originally posted by gusshotrod: Having a roll bar that close to your head without a helmet is not safe, even if it is padded.

+1. I know of someone that died in a car accident from his head hitting the roll bar in a simple accident of hitting a street lamp, or pole. He would have walked away from it if there wasn't a roll bar near his head.

Just something to keep in mind. Make sure it's as far away as possible. How far that needs to be, I don't know, ask a roll cage manufacturer, SCCA, NASA guidelines for reference. Make sure the bottom plates are big enough, as I've seen full blown race cars' roof collapse in videos and the roll bar just poked through the floor boards in the roll over.

As someone else stated, I'm not sure if a bar along the A-pillar would serve a better structural purpose, but as a style bar, and final project it's not a bad idea.

So you think I should build some bars that run along the roof and go down the a pillar? Wouldn't that be even closer to my head and more likely for me to hit it in an accident? I mean I can swerve back and forth and make my little brother hit his head on the roof without crashing!

I guess I don't see the point. The rollbar is not functional, could be dangerous and only adds unneeded weight. For a welding project, how about pulling the manifolds off and cleaning/welding them up? Or make some ramps to drive your car up on? Or make an engine stand, or an engine lift? Or and engine support, so you can remove the cradle? Just a thought, as I don't see the real value in this project, vs the benefit.

Is there a reason you want a bar in your car?
The only logical reason is the use as a race car.
The SCCA requires them for certain class' of autocross and time trial usage.
I run in F Prepaired and have one if you run in X Prepaired or in a Mod class you will need a 4 point bar.
2 on the floor and 2 to the fire wall are acceptable with backing plates.
A helmet is required too.
Make sure the bar is as high and to the rear as much as possible.
It can interfere with seat travel.
You will also need to triangulate it too. One diagonal bar from the lower right corner to the upper left corner is needed.
If you have a horizontal bar for belts the diagonal bar must intersect it.
It must also be made from DOM tubing not iron pipe from Home Depot. SCCA dictates the diameter and wall thickness base on car weight. Check their rules for what you need. I don't have it handy but will check it out later.
Hope it helps.

quote Originally posted by mcguiver3: Is there a reason you want a bar in your car? The only logical reason is the use as a race car. The SCCA requires them for certain class' of autocross and time trial usage. I run in F Prepaired and have one if you run in X Prepaired or in a Mod class you will need a 4 point bar. 2 on the floor and 2 to the fire wall are acceptable with backing plates. A helmet is required too. Make sure the bar is as high and to the rear as much as possible. It can interfere with seat travel. You will also need to triangulate it too. One diagonal bar from the lower right corner to the upper left corner is needed. If you have a horizontal bar for belts the diagonal bar must intersect it. It must also be made from DOM tubing not iron pipe from Home Depot. SCCA dictates the diameter and wall thickness base on car weight. Check their rules for what you need. I don't have it handy but will check it out later. Hope it helps.

I was planning on autocrossing my car this summer although I'm not sure what class I will be in. But I read that you either need to have braces through the window to the frame, or from a plate on the bar to the stock shoulder harness location (Not sure about what they are trying to say there..) and another one from the top of the main hoop to the lower front passenger side. Is it true that I can have a SCCA legal one with the two plates on the floor and then the two connected to the fire wall? What are you doing about the glove box if you have the brace across it? Is it removed?

My 86 Fiero GT should weigh around 2700 lbs correct? So I have the choices of 1.5 x .120 1.75 x .095 and 2.00 x .080 Which size would you recommend using?

I would like a SCCA legal cage, however I thought it would be impossible to make without going through the rear window or having a large bar across the passenger side door opening. If the floor and fire wall mounts are SCCA legal, then I would like to make my bar comply with the other rules. How large must the plates connecting the bar to the floor be (thickness and length/width?)

Thanks very much,
Paul

quote Originally posted by Big Paul: I was planning on autocrossing my car this summer although I'm not sure what class I will be in. But I read that you either need to have braces through the window to the frame, or from a plate on the bar to the stock shoulder harness location (Not sure about what they are trying to say there..) and another one from the top of the main hoop to the lower front passenger side. Is it true that I can have a SCCA legal one with the two plates on the floor and then the two connected to the fire wall? What are you doing about the glove box if you have the brace across it? Is it removed? My 86 Fiero GT should weigh around 2700 lbs correct? So I have the choices of 1.5 x .120 1.75 x .095 and 2.00 x .080 Which size would you recommend using? I would like a SCCA legal cage, however I thought it would be impossible to make without going through the rear window or having a large bar across the passenger side door opening. If the floor and fire wall mounts are SCCA legal, then I would like to make my bar comply with the other rules. How large must the plates connecting the bar to the floor be (thickness and length/width?) Thanks very much, Paul

For standard autocrossing, I didn't think you needed a rollbar. Which class do you want to compete in?

Paul,
A cage is different than a bar.
You do not need a bar for auto crossing.
The bar is needed for time trials and most any other track day running if you are in a Prepared or Modified class.
As long as you don't strip out the interior and stay in a stock or street tire class no bar required.
A cage should be constructed by someone who has experience do it. Many factors need to be considered when doing one.
The bar can be built as long as you have the welding skills and the mandrel bender.
A 4 point bar is a basic hoop with a diagonal section and a horizontal section with mountings at the floor and in the case of the Fiero at 2 points to the fire wall. not through the window to the strut towers.
If I were you I would try AX in a stock class to check things out before making any decisions on what to do to the car to modify it.
Understand the rules and classing and see where you want to play.
It takes some money to make mods, it's also exponential. Experience is the thing here and time behind the wheel.

Bob

Thanks Bob, I know I probably won't need it for the class I'm competing in, but I thought it would be a cool project that I could make for my car. And oops your right, I had been reading about cages and not bars. Are the sizes of bar the same minimum requirements? So I should probably go with the thinner diameter with the wider wall because of how little space there is in a Fiero.

My car has a few suspension mods: all Polly bushings up front, KYB shocks and struts, Fiero store rear 7/8 sway bar. Hopefully that doesn't put me in too competitve of a class

Any info is appreciated! Thanks guys!
Paul

but you are adding extra weight, which will make you less competitive.

Paul,
Unfortunately the addition of the rear sway bar puts you in a street prepared class.
Lots of competition there.
The smaller diam. stock is good. If you are doing a cage I don't have a lot of info to draw on.
I would still recommend that be left to a professional. The cage most always is made to go into the door cavity after it is gutted (including the side impact beam) to allow enough room for impact deformation. It also makes egress and entry a chore. Some SCCA class' will allow you to incorporate a removable side section with the approved connectors I Think?
But the side section is not just a single bar it's 3 bars high I believe.
Don't attempt this unless you know exactly what is required because if you do something that's not up to spec they will not let you run.

I don't plan on making a cage. Just a bar. And It will be bolt on so I can remove it later if I want to. I know that It will add more weight. It's too bad the rear swaybar will put me in a higher class, but I'm more interested in trying out the sport and having a good time. I'm building my car to how I want it. Maybe if I get into Autocross a lot I will remove it so I can run in an easier class. I know I can make different things as my final project, but I already have access to the stuff jackispyder mentioned and I am going to college next year so I wouldn't have a place to put them if I took it with me. I appreciate everyone's concern, but I've already decided that I want to make a roll bar. Maybe I'm just being an ignorant teenager, but even if I end up taking it out and not using it I can always just sell it and make money. It will cost me roughly $20 to make one, not a huge investment.

Sincerely,
Paul

Yes, an A-pillar roll bar would be equally dangerous. I was just suggesting a more functional roll bar placement.

Paul,
I wish you good luck with the project.
We will be looking for some pics on the finished product.
If you ever come to CT and want to run with our club (not SCCA)
we would welcome the competition.
We are also a bit lenient with some stuff too.

Bob

Dang I had a long thing written up but I hit clear fields and i dont have time to write it all again.

Here's where I'm at:


I'm going to make a template when I get home to be sure it fits and shoulder harness bar is at the right height. It's going to be a bit more than I thought, roughly $70.

I'll keep you guys updated. Maybe this will help others in the future.

[This message has been edited by Big Paul (edited 03-22-2012).]

Paul,
place the diagonal section opposite of what is drawn.
It will interfere with vision out the rear window if you don't.
Also make sure it clears the center console. Is the car gutted?
If not the computer/glove box will be an issue as well.
In both of my cars we relocated the computer to the passenger side of the fire wall.
Remember the floor plates will not be easy to fab.

Bob

Ok thanks, I'll change the diagonal bar. The car is not gutted, but I'm thinking I will try my hand at making a fiberglass center console with space for the bars to go through it, but I will probably relocate the computer as well. It isn't too hard to relocate is it? The wires to the fire wall are long enough to where I don't need to cut and extend them right?

I will work something out with the floor plates. What did you do for them?

Thanks again for all the help Bob

Paul.
When I made my first bar I used 1 1/2" PVC pipe for the template. Heated it and bent it, notched the other pieces t fit and test fitted it in the car. I will be better than doing it with cardboard.
The floor plates were trial and error and took about an hour to fab up.
The plates for the fire wall were 4x4x 1/8" with 4 bolts each.
I only wish I could figure out how to take pics and post them?????

Bob

Sorry, but I'm not quite sure what your talking about here:

quote Originally posted by mcguiver3: Almost perpendicular to the floor with a slight downward pull to the rear if you use a race seat with a cut out for them.

Are you referring to the angle of the bar compared to the floor of the car?

Good thinking with the pvc pipe, I'll pick some up tomorrow and break out the old heat gun!

To post pics you can use pennocks image poster (link on the bottom of each page). Or use PhotoBucket, I've never used pennocks image poster so I'll tell you how to use photobucket. You need to make an account and then you can start uploading pictures. Once you upload them you can copy the link into a post. You want to use the one with the [img] tags in it. The downside to using another type of thing like photobucket is eventually the pictures will be gone. (after a long time I believe they delete your accont if your not active) I'm not sure if thats true or not. However that's why some threads that used to have pictures don't.

The shoulder harness needs to not angle down from the shoulders to the rear of the car to prevent spinal injury due to spinal compression in the event of a crash. This stuff is kind of important.

quote Originally posted by gusshotrod: The shoulder harness needs to not angle down from the shoulders to the rear of the car to prevent spinal injury due to spinal compression in the event of a crash. This stuff is kind of important.

Ah gotcha, I wasn't saying it wasn't important. I was just unclear what he was trying to say. Thanks for clarifying

Paul,
He is right about the belt angle but if you raise the height of the bar so the shoulder belts are perfectly level the horizontal bar will be half way up the rear window and block your vision out back.
Mine are angled very slightly downward about 5 deg. and the seat has the hole for them to go through.
I will try the picture thing tomorrow.

Bob

Paul, I think i've got it now.
Here are a few pics of my car





Some of these are older shots and I've made a few improvements for this season

Bob

Sorry I didn't notice you had posted. Your car looks very nice! Do you have any interior shots?

Few quick questions...

The bar doesn't need to be perpendicular to the floor does it?

Can the floor mounting plates be bent so they are on both the floor and firewall?

Does it all need to be on the same plane?

All of my tubing came in yesterday and I'm going to start bending next week. I just want to finalize my plans and mock it up in the car with the pvc pipe I have. Need to be certain this will fit once I make it!

Paul,
The bar shoould be tipped back to fit as close to the fire wall as possible about 1" to 2" is OK more is bad.
The floor plate can wrap up the fire wall but the floor is where the force ends up so spread the load as far as possible.
Here are some pics I took Sunday. Sorry the interior is not the clearest.
Bob

Sorry, It's been a while since I've updated this. I haven't had much motivation as my senior year is winding to a close Thanks for the pictures.

Here is where I am now. I have the PVC pipes bent and I've tested them out in the car. At the shop I have 22' of DOM tubing to play with. Hopefully I can start bending the actual bar tomorrow or later this week.

In one of the pictures you can see my amp. I am going to relocate this when I install the bar

I also think that I want it to sit a wee bit higher even though I am going to be reinstalling the headliner before it goes in permanently.

Let me know what you guys think.

Paul,
When you actually bend the bar at the top corners the radius will allow you to get the top of the bar closer to the roof so leave a little extra length om the legs.
It should be a close to the under side of the roof as possible.
Do you have a mandrel bender?

Bob

This is what we have at the shop

I was planning on leaving very bottom a bit longer just to be safe and I can trim/grind it to the exact length

that's what you need all right.

quote Originally posted by mcguiver3: that's what you need all right.

Okay sweet!

I measured out the PVC mock up and put it into a cool program my professor had and it spat out all the angles to bend and where to bend them. Here's what I've got:




If people really want me to I can make scans of it and upload them for better quality...