Hi all. As I was putting a new nut on one of my exhaust studs, I thought I'd pull my cruise control vacuum can off to see what kind of shape it was in. I've been having some problems with the car that makes me think I've got a nasty exhaust or vacuum leak somewhere and I *might* have found a little of each tonight. First, I had a loose nut and a missing nut on the trunk-side exhaust manifold that I rectified.

Then when I went to check the cruise can one of the vacuum hoses was loose. Also, upon further inspection I've found my juice can to be leaky. I read some time back about how to fix the can by soldering the lid onto another new can and I thought I'd try it: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...050119-2-053731.html

So first I pulled the can out and popped the lid off -- not with a regular can opener but with the kind that umcrimps the seam like in the above thread. I took a look inside and its got quite a bit of rust debris. After scuffing up the outside and cleaning it up a bit, I found the source, well, one of the sources.Fantabulous.







After I checked the can, I checked the lid. Its got a good deal of rust too



So I have this OJ can handy. Nice. A fix AND a drink







And now for some questions:

1. Would these leaks in the cruise system affect the overall performance of the rest of the engine? I get pretty crappy fuel economy, stumbling on start-up, and the occasional code 44 (lean exhaust -- which is why I was looking/found the loose/missing exhaust nuts).

I may actually drive it for a while without the cruise system hooked up and the one vacuum port on the metal line sealed off just to see.

2. I have some flux and solder and a MAPP torch. Is the MAPP torch overkill? Also, will the solder work for the holes in the top of the lid or would I have better luck with JB weld? Actually, would JB weld work for sealing the top as well?

You're supposed to use a tomato juice can

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...100421-2-097491.html


---

Yeah - try driving it with the hose plugged, but my guess is that you won't notice much of a difference. In closed loop operation the ECM adjusts the fuel to get the best mixture as indicated by the O2 sensor. As long as the engine is in closed loop - the ECM actually compensates for the vacuum leak. FYI - disconnnecting the battery will remove the ECM's memory of that and it will then re-learn it the right way right away. Not totally needed but if you want to you could.

--

Re-sealing the can - Acid core solder (plumbing solder) with seperate flux. Not sure if that is going to hold. I think you would have better results with the JB weld. Test it on a recycle can before you muck up the one you want to use on the car. MAPP gas torch - thats fine to use.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 07-10-2010).]

Easier just to go to a junk yard and get one of those black plastic balls used on a bunch of GM cars

The black plastic balls get soft and collapse, so thats a no-go.

I've never soldered anything before other than with a tiny soldering iron, so I think I'll go with the JB since I need to use it to seal up the topside of the can anyway. I'll just make up a big batch of it and do it all at once. If I muck it up... well... I guess I can always replace the can. This is just to keep me from spending the $30 at TheFieroStore if I don't have to. That, and its kind of fun

I'd much rather drink OJ than tomato juice, although I seriously considered getting a can of V8 juice to use and leave the label on except that I only have a v6.

On the vac leak, I drove it around some and it doesn't really seem to change how its been driving like you said it probably wouldn't. I dug out my Snap-on scanner and pulled up two codes: 44 and 45 for lean and rich exhaust. I ran all the suggested diagnostic tests on the other sensors and everything seems to indicate that I've got a vacuum leak somewhere thats making the computer run the injectors with more fuel than it really needs. I tried spraying carb cleaner around the hoses but I didn't notice an RPM change so I haven't found it yet. I might just take it to a shop and see if they can find the leak and then I'll fix it myself.

I just did the tomato can for a vette I am building to reglue the lid on. First take a grinder and grind the top lip off the can lid were it is crimped this will give u a nice flange to re bond it with then get some 8115 3m panel adhesive and put a bead of it around the lip of your can and push the lid back on after u add your can nipples to it then u just sand off the extra glue wich leaves the seam back to original looking after u paint it, done! ill add a few pics if I can find them

[This message has been edited by jetsnvettes2000 (edited 07-10-2010).]

I replaced the vacuum reservoir on one of mine with a juice can too. I used seam-sealer... it's great stuff and stays semi-flexible. Worked like a charm.

Oooh! I have some 2 part epoxy kicking around here too... I bet that would work just as well Keep the ideas coming, I think I'll be finishing this either tonight or tomorrow depending on how long it takes to finish a couple other projects.

id stay away from the two part epoxy, after while it will get brittle and fall apart w the heat and flexing the can will go thru in the engine bay however like above the jb weld is verry similar to the panel glue and will hold up.

Ah, I didn't know 2-part does that. Hmm, back to JB then. I think I have a some around here somewhere...

Interesting discussion here. The tomato can tip is a great one.

quote Originally posted by Alibi: I've been having some problems with the car that makes me think I've got a nasty exhaust or vacuum leak somewhere....

What kind of problems? I have to wonder what kind of "issues" my car has that I don't even notice or think about because, to me, they seem perfectly normal. I'm thinking that if some of you "car guys" were to drive my car, you'd experience things that make you think, "Hmmm, something is wrong here," whereas I'm completely oblivious.

i cleaned the rust off of mine one day but i painted it with high heat gass grill paint and it did smell for about a week. i could not belive how much vacum the can held till i pulled the hoses off. it now looks like the day it was put on the car. what does this can doo, does it have something to do with cruze control.

the can is a storage tank for vacum that allows the cruise to hold constant vccum while engine goes thru its cycles of low and high rpm, obviously during its use the vacum changes with the amount of rpms the engine is at at any givin moment, think of it as a shock absorber in a way or in reverse the air tank on your compressor it also helps with keeping a constant vacum for the engine as well during those cycles, on older cars like the corvette the tank got to be huge taking up the whole front part of the frame and operated the headlights and cruise and in my opinion is still a perfect desighn when kept up, it has no eletric motors to burn out and is verry easy to maintain. Far as the fiero well it controls the cruise ya but even without cruise id add one inline with the plentum just to even out the vacum while the engine is in its diffrent loads.

x2 on the excellent tomato can advice. I already have my OJ can so I'll just stick with it. I assume the tomatoes are too acidic for just the bare metal in the can which necessitates the plastic lining?

On my vacuum issues, I'm getting error codes 44 and 45 for lean and rich exhaust at the O2 sensor. This means that I either have a vacuum leak letting too much air into the motor and the injectors are being fed more gas to compensate or the exhaust before the O2 leaks and is fooling the O2 into thinking theres a leak and telling the ECM to burn more fuel. As such, my fuel economy sucks and it idles funny. The more you fiddle with your car the better attuned to it you'll be so no worries if you aren't car-knowledgeable. With a Fiero, you just have to learn along the way.

The vacuum can is a constant supply of vacuum for the engine and for the cruise, as explained. A rusted up can won't hold a vacuum and therefore will not allow for the cruise control system to work (a diaphragm controlled by vacuum pressure pulls and holds a cable back that is attached to the throttle to keep it at a set speed) and it will allow for general vacuum issues with the rest of the engine.

You guys do realize you are all going to die, by simply messing with the factory vacuum can...

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...100421-2-097491.html

Kevin

when u do restorations and certine parts are discontinued u have to be creative I restore corvettes for a living and I guarantee the can I made is six times better than the factory one

1. has rubber lining
2.has polyurathane gasket under the original nipple wich is re atached via a 10/32 socket head cap screw vs the half ass factory rolled over rivit
3. the panel gue holds entire cars together the can is not going to cave in plus I leave a lip on top so their is no way it can
4.its just fun to make stuff people cant even tell the diffrence

the vacum can isnt going to kill you thats like saying its a guns falt someone got shot. anyway about your error codes I just tackled same problem with mine check the large vacum tube that plugs into the throttle body on the bottom side, my leak was their and was fixed with alittle rtv around the fitting since ive done it ive had no problems

[This message has been edited by jetsnvettes2000 (edited 07-12-2010).]

quote Originally posted by jetsnvettes2000: when u do restorations and certine parts are discontinued u have to be creative I restore corvettes for a living and I guaruntee the can I made is six times better than the factory one 1. has rubber lining 2.has polyurathane gasket under the original nipple wich is re atached via a 10/32 socket head cap screw vs the half ass factory rolled over rivit 3. the panel gue holds entire cars together the can is not going to cave in plus I leave a lip on top so their is no way it can 4.its just fun to make stuff people cant even tell the diffrence the vacum can isnt going to kill you thats like saying its a guns falt someone got shot. anyway about your error codes I just tackled same problem with mine check the large vacum tube that plugs into the throttle body on the bottom side, my leak was their and was fixed with alittle rtv around the fitting since ive done it ive had no problems

I couldn't agree with you more, but if you had taken the time to read the thread I posted, you would see why I posted what I did......someone else had something totally different to say on the matter, and was pretty amusing to boot.

Kevin

quote Originally posted by jetsnvettes2000: id stay away from the two part epoxy, after while it will get brittle and fall apart w the heat and flexing the can will go thru in the engine bay however like above the jb weld is verry similar to the panel glue and will hold up.

JB Weld is two part epoxy.

quote Originally posted by Lambo nut: You guys do realize you are all going to die, by simply messing with the factory vacuum can... https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...100421-2-097491.html Kevin

Death by juice can

jb weld is yes a form of epoxy but has compounds that strengthen it as well. Pure epoxy has no body, it would be like using fiberglass resin to do a repair without using any type of filler like micro beads or fiberglass matt. It too will fail on its own, u need somthing within it to give it a good interlace within the chemical makeup.
When u mix paint this is an important thing as well, when u mix your paint you should always only mix the paint first and then add the thinner later after a dozen minuts or so to give it time to mix this period of time is called the induction time and this allows the resins and hardners to bond chemically with the filler pigments and metals or flake, glue works the same way after you mix it,
it needs somthing to bolster its strength and thats were jb weld differs from standard epoxy, it has those fillers within it to help give it a bit more tinsile strength. but with all that said its just a juice can its not going to take extream flexing it will just take even load via vacum and not that much of it either.

quote Originally posted by Lambo nut: ...if you had taken the time to read the thread I posted, you would see why I posted what I did......someone else had something totally different to say on the matter, and was pretty amusing to boot.

Judging exclusively by that thread, PaulJK is a person who doubts himself and trusts experts. He won't personally be able to find a flaw in the design of one of the tomato-can repairs, but he won't accept them as reliable because the experts at Pontiac didn't endorse them. I don't really know how to communicate with someone like that, but I suppose I'd start by pointing out that the "appeal to authority" is a very weak argument.

Appeal to Authority (Fallacy)

Premise 1: Person A is an authority on subject S.
Premise 2: Person A makes claim C about subject S.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion: Therefore, C is true.

So if the Appeal to Authority is fallacious, just how much worse is the claim, "Person A (in this case, Pontiac) did NOT make claim C about S (tomato juice can repair is reliable), therefore claim C about S is false (tomato juice can repair is not reliable).

I'm not sure it's amusing. If it is, it's because it's ridiculous, and if being the object of ridicule in this situation prods some to begin "standing on their own two feet", so to speak, then I suppose it could be amusing. There's probably a better way, though.

[This message has been edited by OuroborosNS (edited 07-12-2010).]

quote Originally posted by OuroborosNS: Judging exclusively by that thread, PaulJK is a person who doubts himself and trusts experts. He won't personally be able to find a flaw in the design of one of the tomato-can repairs, but he won't accept them as reliable because the experts at Pontiac didn't endorse them. I don't really know how to communicate with someone like that, but I suppose I'd start by pointing out that the "appeal to authority" is a very weak argument. Appeal to Authority (Fallacy) Premise 1: Person A is an authority on subject S. Premise 2: Person A makes claim C about subject S. So if the Appeal to Authority is fallacious, just how much worse is the claim, "Person A (in this case, Pontiac) did NOT make claim C about S (tomato juice can repair is reliable), therefore claim C about S is false (tomato juice can repair is not reliable). I'm not sure it's amusing. If it is, it's because it's ridiculous, and if being the object of ridicule in this situation prods some to begin "standing on their own two feet", so to speak, then I suppose it could be amusing. There's probably a better way, though.

Holy Cow!
You put alot more thought into it then I did. After not being able to get into his head the juice can modification would not kill you, all I could think was, "What an Ass!"

Kevin

i looked at my nasty can and decided to go digital cruise

------------------



87 Fiero GT 5sp with Vortec L35 4300 Turbocharged V6
Bully Stage 2 clutch
Syclone intake manifold and engine management with Moates adapter and chip burner
Air/water intercooler and Devil's Own progressive water/alky injection
50lb injectors, 3 bar map sensor, Walboro fuel pump and Jabasco Intercooler pump
LM1 wideband on custom manifolds and 3" stainless exhaust system
T31 P trim T04B H3 turbo and a S10 caliper conversion.
Murphy's Constant Matter will be damaged in direct proportion to its value
Murphy's Law of Thermodynamics Things get worse under pressure.
Arthur C. Clarke "Any significantly advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

lol too funny guys!

Well this has turned into an interesting thread

Anyway, I rattle-canned the inside of my OJ can today. Its just a preventative measure against rust. I'll sand down the lip of the OJ can and the lid of the OEM can after the paint has cured and then JB weld them together. I'll take some pictures of that process when I do.

If my can doesn't work or fails in a short amount of time I figure I'm only out a couple dollars for my supplies and maybe an hour or two of my time. Definitely not a big deal. I can always buy a FieroStore can or convert to digital as mentioned above... BUT if this DOES work out for me, then I'm out no $$ and everything will still look/function as stock.

Got a little more done today. I spray painted the inside of the OJ can and the bottom of the vac can lid. The vac can lid has a fair amount of rust and some holes in it so I'm not sure how well its going to hold up but I guess we'll just have to see.



After they dried, I mixed up a batch of JB weld. I smeared the JB generously on the bottom of the can to reinforce the weak metal and hopefully fill in some pin holes. Then I smeared some around the edge of the can (both mating surfaces were wire-brushed before) and pressed the two pieces together. I had a little blob of JB left, so I put that on the top of lid where the metal was weak.



Its supposed to be cured after 4 hours so I'm going to clean up the "weld", paint the outside of the can, and install tomorrow. Weather permitting, of course.

the little line is going to be hard to feel get a five dollar vacum gun from autozone and hook it to end of line it will read on the guage then

I've got a vacuum gun somewhere. I'll have to dig it out and give it a try then.

Got it all painted up and bolted back in. I need some new vacuum line so I'll have to wait till tomorrow to test it. I hope I can get the cruise to work at least.

[This message has been edited by Alibi (edited 07-15-2010).]

If you do die because of the dangerous juice can please have your next of kin make a post in this thread.

quote Originally posted by phonedawgz: If you do die because of the dangerous juice can please have your next of kin make a post in this thread.

lol maby write us into the ol will too!

"I will a case of Juice Cans to Pennocks Fiero Forum members upon my death"

Anyway, going to get a vacuum hose and try out the cruise on my way to a friends place in a bit. I'll post back tonight if it works or not.

I'm glad that old thread actually was useful for someone! I've actually moved away from the vacuum type cruise systems and am retro-fitting to the newer style servo type cruise control units. Maybe I should do a thread on what parts to use when doing that update. -Jason

I know one can do a digital cruise but I don't want to mess with that just yet. Other styles that are still bolt-on without too much wiring would be interesting though

Anyway, I got my vacuum can in with some new hoses but I can't get my cruise to work. When I press the button the cruise light doesn't come on my dash. I think that I just have a bad multifunction stalk because I've got phantom wipers too. Oh well, just one more thing to track down.