Hi all, in my never ending quest to find a reasonably priced V8 for my fiero I have been searching for a Vortec 5.7L out of 96-99 trucks.

I stumbled upon a good deal on craigslist for one BUT Its a boat engine.

Whats the difference really? I know marinized engines are built to more strict specs but could I use this motor in the fiero with an archie kit? (The vortec 5.7L is a 1st gen sbc)

http://www.gm.com/experienc...2010_5700_Marine.pdf

I might be mistaken, but I thought Marine engines turned opposite direction. Thats what I remember being told by a guy who had a Chris Craft boat with a Mopar 6 cyl. I know ZR1 Corvettes had engines by the Marine builder, but dont really know if its a 'Marine' application. I know several guy with cigarette boats with 2 or 3 350s, but never paid attention to rotation direction. My jet boat had a 454, and never paid attention to it either.

Even if they did turn the other way, wouldnt a new cam an starter fix that issue?

And a new transmission! One that wound take input turning the other way.

HI all

PM V8Archie, a long while ago I seem to remember seeing a car with a V8 Mercury boat motor in a fiero on one of his older sites... Though I gotta tell ya, it's been sooooo long it may not have been his site atall....... Still, I would pm him anyways! Hope this does some good!!

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Me, I sell engines, the cars are for free, I need something to crate the engines in....
Enzo Ferrari....

Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines....
Enzo Ferrari...

Today they are called garage's, yesterday, they were stable's! Eric Jacobsen....

A marine engine wouldn't necessarily rotate backwards.
In twin engine applications they sometimes had one engine rotating backwards, so that the torque effects would offset the other.

That may be true and makes sense. Twin engine prop airplanes do both ways...counter-rotating and same direction .

If the engine rotates in the wrong direction, you would need a different transmission or you would have 1 forward speed and 4/5 reverse speeds.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: That may be true and makes sense. Twin engine prop airplanes do both ways...counter-rotating and same direction . If the engine rotates in the wrong direction, you would need a different transmission or you would have 1 forward speed and 4/5 reverse speeds.

Engine rotation is detremined by cam timing [how the lobes are situated on the cam blank]. All you would need is a different cam, maybe a distributor, maybe an oil pump, and possibly a waterpump if that was part of the deal, and that's assuming you have a counter rotation marine engine. Marine electronics have alot more stringent standards to prevent sparking because most boat engines are in an enclosed area with possibility of flammable fumes building up and igniting. These parts will work fine on the street. The majority of marine engines are standard rotation. The cranks, pistons, and rods are all the same no matter which way they turn. Some of the gaskets and freeze plugs are a little different on a marine engine but it will work fine in an automotive application. It works the opposite way as well. I just repowered my boat with an automotive 5.7l engine [changed the necessary gaskets and such]. If it's a good deal buy it.

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88blackchopv8

[This message has been edited by av8fiero (edited 02-04-2010).]

Just for the sake of argument, how would it be possible for a transmission to work the same regardless of which way the engine rotates ? If that was the case why dont a boat or airplane propeller work the same regardless of its rotation....

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Just for the sake of argument, how would it be possible for a transmission to work the same regardless of which way the engine rotates ? If that was the case why dont a boat or airplane propeller work the same regardless of its rotation....

Automatic transmissions cannot spin backwards. The pump will function backwards, taking oil from the circuitry and pumping it into the pan. No good. But, in some automatic transmissions, the mechanicals are reversable. They have these one way roller sprags inside them that are sometimes reversable, you put them in backwards and they will work in the other direction. The clutches, gears and governors don't care what direction you spin them. So it would only be a matter of getting the pump working. There is a possible issue with thrust load bearings, but It's probably not a big issue on an automatic.

Manual transmissions generally work fine in either direction. There is 3 things you would need to consider.
One, lubrication is dependent on the gears throwing oil around, often the passage ways for the oil expect the oil to come from a certain direction.
Two, Synchros usually work better for an upshift, but they can downshift, but that isn't as easy, so synchros do work backwards, but sometimes not as well.
Three, Some transmissions are designed to take large thrust loads in only one direction, notice the gears are all slanted, they tend to deliver an axial force (and a huge side load) on the bearings whenever they are loaded. If the transmission isn't built to take full force in both directions, the thrust bearing will fail.
So a Manual transmission is almost guaranteed to work, but how well it shifts, and the longevity, and reliability of the mechanicals may suffer.

On a boat, they took considerations of both directions of rotation. Clearly, on car transmissions, if they would have done a few things different, the transmissions wouldn't have any trouble rotating backwards, as there is only a few reasons it wouldn't work, and those reasons are only because they had zero expectation of reverse rotation.

I have done this many times. Used marine engines in cars. Marine engines are either standard or counter rotating. If you look at the flywheel end as its running the flywheel should turn to counter clockwise. This is a standard rotation. If the engine is turning clockwise this is counter rotating. If its standard rotating your fine but I would change the cam probably because the engine is cammed to make max power at a higher rpm. If its counter rotating you will have to change the cam because the timing will be off. (enterance on to the cam lobes)You will allso need to change the starter, some marine engines just mount the starter backwards. The dist. will work fine you just need to change the firing order on the cap. If its a good deal I would get it.

[This message has been edited by traderguy (edited 02-04-2010).]

quote Originally posted by av8fiero: Engine rotation is detremined by cam timing [how the lobes are situated on the cam blank]. All you would need is a different cam, maybe a distributor, maybe an oil pump, and possibly a waterpump if that was part of the deal, and that's assuming you have a counter rotation marine engine. Marine electronics have alot more stringent standards to prevent sparking because most boat engines are in an enclosed area with possibility of flammable fumes building up and igniting. These parts will work fine on the street. The majority of marine engines are standard rotation. The cranks, pistons, and rods are all the same no matter which way they turn. Some of the gaskets and freeze plugs are a little different on a marine engine but it will work fine in an automotive application. It works the opposite way as well. I just repowered my boat with an automotive 5.7l engine [changed the necessary gaskets and such]. If it's a good deal buy it.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Just for the sake of argument, how would it be possible for a transmission to work the same regardless of which way the engine rotates ? If that was the case why dont a boat or airplane propeller work the same regardless of its rotation....

The trans will only work properly with a standard rotation engine. A counter rotation marine engine would need to have the parts I mentioned replaced to change the rotation of the engine back to standard rotation. The cam is what actually determines rotation direction. IF you change the cam to a standard rotation cam it will spin and function properly in an automotive application

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88blackchopv8

It's done all the time.
In fact a big upgrade for the vortec truck engine's is the intake from the marine vortecs that use a conventional injector.
The difference's in marine engines are things like hardened internals,4 bolt main usually,cam specs for low end torque etc..
Boats don't generally have gears or gearing,so you will stay in higher rpm's depending on boat,water,hull type etc..
Shouldn't be any issue's bolting one up in a car,will be a torquey monster though usually.

for specs on the marine engine check out pacificp.com/forum

most newer boats that use twin engines have the reverse rotation done in the gearbox thereby using the same motor. it is cheaper and easier to do this way. not sure when they started this but a friend says they started at least a few years ago.

OK, I get how you can make the engine spin either way, thats relatively simple then. I may be missing something though in the transmission. I know it can turn either way, but Im still not understanding how it will work the same way regardless of which direction its input shaft is turning. In a model RC car for example to keep it simple, we have one forward gear. If you run the electric motor it spins one way moving the car forward. If you reverse the wires to make the motor run the opposite way, the car will now go in reverse. So if im understanding you guys, you HAVE to modify the engine to turn in the right direction to work thru a stock transmission?

Yes, Exactly. I misunderstood the question earlier. To get the transmission to work, and the wheels to spin the correct direction, the engine must spin the correct direction as well. There is no Engine Direction correcting device in the transmission. With automatics, the transmission won't work at all, and in a manual car, the car will have 1 forward gear (reverse) and all the others would be reverse speeds.

Boats with multiple engines, that have engines that spin in opposite directions have props that have Oppositly pitched blades. So even though they spin the opposite direction, the thrust direction is still correct.

For GM built FWD's, the engine spins the same direction as the wheels if that makes sense, consider that set in stone.

You Guys are missing the point......

No one is saying you can use a counter rotating engine with the stock tranny. What they are saying is if you start with a counter rotating engine you can convert it to spin the right way before you install it in the car.

However as it has been pointed out counter rotating engines are only used in dual engine aplications so you would have no problem getting a marine engine that spins the right way from the start....

Sebring is right..It really easy making a counter rotating engine turn the right way. A single engine boat is usually allways going to have a normal rotating engine. On a dual engine boat the counter rotating is allways on the starboard side.

Why is everyone thinking it's wrong rotation?
I've seen these engines singly in wayyy more boats than i've seen them in dual setups.
In fact most dual setup's i've seen are either older express,aft cabin unit's using older 302 dual setup's or 454.

I've mostly seen these things in 22-28ft cuddy and open bow boats in single setup's.
I've never seen dual 350's around here (grew up on,around boats on a lake).
My 24ft SeaRay Cuddy even had a single 454,as the 350 wasn't torquey enough for the large hull.
Most dual engines are NOT 350's,they're are much better alternatives.

You shouldn't need to worry about reverse anything,there will be a few difference's and shouldn't be anything that should mess up an install into a car really.

Check out pacificp.com/forum
We developed the marine injection swap for the SFI/poppit vortecs to be an almost plug and play deal,along with the LS1/0411 pcm swap with it.
Send a pm to Hog over there,and he'll tell you what if anything you will need to change.
Check it out cause you will more than likely need the 0411 swap (easy to do) if you keep the injection,and they will buy the marine injection setup in the classifieds if you decide to go carb.

Hope some of this helps.
(and the vortec is actually considered a GEN II engine built on the GEN I architecture-roller block/cam/lifters,one peice rear main,different heads etc.. it's a bastard motor but an excellent one-have a few myself,a daily driver and one for the track.)

[This message has been edited by DefEddie (edited 02-06-2010).]

You can search for mercruiser

The yellow and white car at the bottom is Jim Duff's car, out of Illinois. It's powered by a Mercruiser 350. Jim works for Crownline Boats. It's mounted with an Archie kit. Jim is/was a member of Midwest Fieros.

He was a member of this forum at one time. Some jerks gave him grief about the boat theme of his car. Haven't really heard much from him in the last few years.







Archie

boat modders have been using car/truck engines for years. I can recall 18' cuddy fishing boats in the 60's with Buick or Olds engines in them. (very fast BTW).

We should put the measure of logic on this question. Why would somebody like GM or Mercury Marine go to all the tooling and manufacturing expense to produce a specialized reverse rotating engine when they can simply produce a reverse pitch prop?

If it gets down to it, a reverse running tranny is way easier to produce than a reverse rotating engine.

The marine engines are good reliable engines however, their camming and other gear are designed to run WOT and designed to be serviced by the hours run, not mileage. The Vortec is a pretty solid engine. It seems to me it is a good choice, however, you might want the truck version if you have the choice. Less mods.

Hope this helps.

Arn

modern boats motors, last 15 years definately are all standard rotation motors. they reverse in the tranny or I/O unit.
If by some wierd chance you got an older reverse rotation motor, you have to replace the CRANK, as they are weighted differently for reverse rotation. Then the cam to matche the firing order change, and convert the cam drive.
Depending on the year/make, the cam spins in the normal direction, as does the distirbutor, as they are gear driven not chain driven, tho I think there were a few that spun backwards.