I have a 3.4l pushrod in my car that I was told makes 210HP by a dyno shop when they tuned it. I have had many people tell me this is impossible.

The engine has been rebuilt with performance parts. It features

Comp Cams 1.6:1 Roller Rockers and Cam
Comp Cams Pushrods
Trueleo long runner upper intake/Ported lower intake
Darrel Morse Throttle body
Functional "Ram Air" Intake
Larger Than Stock Injectors
Ported/Polished/Gasket matched/High flow Spintech muffler exhaust
Low Temp Thermostat that keeps the engine running at about 185-200 degrees
Dyno Tuned (Obviously) to take advantage of Premium Fuel. Fuel maps are dead on.

It was mated to a 4spd Manual transmission.

So, before I go to the dyno again at some point, can anyone that isn't a 3800 fanboy make an educated guess as to whether or not this is possible? The dyno shop did not charge me extra to get more HP, so I do not see why they would have lied to me, but who knows.

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86GT Modded 3.4l Pushrod V6 with Trueleo

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Well, the 3.4 pushrod motor in the grand am GT "ram air" made near that HP stock (200 I think) so I dont see why not...expecially with a cam and some freeflowing exhaust! You are talking at the wheels, correct?

[This message has been edited by AWDimprezaL (edited 02-02-2010).]

Yes, at the wheels. I have no doubt whatsoever it would make 210 HP at the crank.

Well, does it feel like a 210whp car? it would need to be making about 235-245 hp at the crank to make 210 at the wheels. I say have it dynoed again, lots of dynos differ in readings.

[This message has been edited by AWDimprezaL (edited 02-02-2010).]

Given, it'd s stick and I can drive one, but I would have won in a race against myself in my old 4.9l GT. It feels about the same or slightly faster than the N/A 3800 4spd I drove once. I'm not at all skeptical if I'm going by the seat of my pants meter, but according to some 210 is not possible on a 3.4l without even more extensive modification than the one I have does.

Stock the engine has 160hp right?

You've eliminated the two biggest restrictions the motor has - intake and exhaust. That alone should provide you a pretty nice boost in horsepower. I don't see why it couldn't do it.

Given your mods, and the fact that the engine was "tuned" by someone who knows what they are doing, then ya, it is very possible to get those numbers. If you just slapped all that together and did not have the car tuned properly I would say no, but in the hands of someone capable you can always squeeze some good numbers out of a decent build with a properly tuned engine.

Yeah, the tune is close to perfect.

what kind of MPG are you getting with the 4 speed?

1990 turbo grand prix made 205 from the factory with a 3.1 engine.
There are people with 300+hp gen II and III engines.
Pretty sure most of them use some type of power adder though like turbo or juice.

I got around 29mpg hwy.

quote Originally posted by MadDanceSkillz: I have a 3.4l pushrod in my car that I was told makes 210HP by a dyno shop when they tuned it. I have had many people tell me this is impossible.

Depending upon how the HP is being measured, it already could have been done, so it's not impossible. More specifically, fellow Pennock's Fiero Forum member, Oreif, already made 206 HP at the rear wheels of a fuel-injected 3.4L Fiero with a Trueleo intake manifold, a Crane 272 cam, and some other mods (all naturally aspirated) for better breathing.


Archived on Pennock's Fiero Forum, his 2005 thread dealing with that 3.4L build-up is titled, "3.4L carb'd VS. 3.4L EFI Results" (readily accessible via this link): ( https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...060206-2-066575.html ).

In fairness, however, there may be at least two potential limiters with the combination you have. Perhaps I misunderstood your statement about porting, but I didn't see any reference to cylinder head work or headers (although apparently the stock exhaust system, and hopefully its Y-pipe, was ported). Also, your statement that you've a Comp Cams' cam doesn't reveal anything about that cam's duration and lift specs to enable someone to determine if they are anywhere near the specs of the 272 Crane cam that Oreif used.

I never believe numbers in a theoretical engine on a computer. I believe dyno numbers if the operator knows what there doing. Id say its completely possible, lots more if you turbo or supercharge it. My 3.1 in my Ferrari kit was turboed, was build by a nascar race shop, and dynoed at 275 at flywheel if I remember right. Im sure they knew how to work a dyno. It was street driven and not a bunch of exotic mods. I drove it for 100K.

It's actually a crane 272 cam; I typed comp cams on accident. The heads and headers are opened up a lot further than stock.

quote Originally posted by MadDanceSkillz: It's actually a crane 272 cam; I typed comp cams on accident. The heads and headers are opened up a lot further than stock.

With those clarifications, it sounds to me like you've a well-thought-out, nicely tuned combination, so I can think of only one reason people told you the 210 HP your 3.4L dynoed is "impossible," namely:

Enjoy!

210whp would mean a 13.1 or a 13.2 quarter mile.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: 210whp would mean a 13.1 or a 13.2 quarter mile.

I think more close to 14s. 13.9 on a 2900lbs car calculated here: http://robrobinette.com/et.htm

If you want to achieve 210 HP on a chassis dyno on an engine rated 160HP at the crank; IMO, even with mods, that goal is an agresssive one. I'd say that its possible but rather unlikly that you will see this type of horsepower without boosting or nitrous. However, 210 HP at the crank might be achievable but dyno shops all use chassis dynos. .

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

We'll see what it earns at the track soon.

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: I think more close to 14s. 13.9 on a 2900lbs car calculated here: http://robrobinette.com/et.htm

using that calculator, I would need 340 crank hp, and like 250whp to run what I did... with a stock L67/m90 I do not see that happening.

I think it's possible, but you're really pushing it for those heads.
If my 3.4 is as strong as the sum of its parts, I figure it ought to be making ~200 at the crank with a "dialed in" tune.
With just a cobbled together tune, it's pretty much as fast as my 4.9.
I might get around to a few dyno runs if I ever get the time to tweak it.

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Raydar
88 4.9 Formula IMSA Fasback..........................88 3.4 coupe -soon to be something other than red

Read Nealz Nuze! Praise the Lowered!

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 02-02-2010).]

Well, if you figure out how to get that kind of horsepower, be sure to tell me how. I have a very well built performance 3.4PR with a crane 2030 cam, headers, ocelot exhaust, bigger injectors, performance chip and massaged heads. The best it's ever done on a chassis dyno was 150 HP. Granted, the induction system is stock, but I seriously doubt anything less than gas or a turbo is going to make up that kind of a difference. Bottom line is, the cylinder heads on these engines are boat anchors. I've seen better breathing Briggs and Stratton heads.

quote Originally posted by rpro: Well, if you figure out how to get that kind of horsepower, be sure to tell me how. I have a very well built performance 3.4PR with a crane 2030 cam, headers, ocelot exhaust, bigger injectors, performance chip and massaged heads. The best it's ever done on a chassis dyno was 150 HP. Granted, the induction system is stock, but I seriously doubt anything less than gas or a turbo is going to make up that kind of a difference. Bottom line is, the cylinder heads on these engines are boat anchors. I've seen better breathing Briggs and Stratton heads.

First, you need to ditch the stock upper intake. On a 3.4, the stock intake is all done by about 4500.
Get a Trueleo or something else that flows. A 63mm throttlebody would be helpful too.
Many people consider the 2030 to be only a mild improvement over stock. A 272 would help. There's a Crower cam that's even a bit more radical.
Tuned headers. Trueleos or FOCOAs. Even WCF. (Not an endorsement.) Cloyes true roller timing set. Installed with the cam "retarded" to enhance top end.

But yeah... once the intake is opened up, the heads are the next restriction. They're pretty bad.

Did you read Oreif's thread(s)? That kind of power is possible. He did it. Twice.

Sorry. You did ask.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 02-02-2010).]

Yes, 210 at the crank is doable.

The thing done to your engine sound right, except for the larger injectors, which are probably a waste of time - that tune should be well within normal duty cycle for stock injectors.

I run the 272 cam as well and quite like it. This sort of engine works really nicely if you only have 2100 lbs. to drag around!

Raydar - All of that is already done.

quote Originally posted by MadDanceSkillz: Raydar - All of that is already done.

He knows... he was replying to rpro...

I would definately get it dyno'd. It doesn't matter what people think about your mods, what matters is just what the car does. Dyno, Dyno, Dyno...

[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 02-03-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: I think more close to 14s. 13.9 on a 2900lbs car calculated here: http://robrobinette.com/et.htm

I don't put much stock in those calculators. They don't take into consideration engine powerband or transmission gearing. If I had an engine that had a totally flat torque curve like a VVT V6 motor, it would produce linear strong acceleration through the power band. As apposed to say a 200hp Honda 2.2 liter motor which lacks displacement... it's torque-band would be fairly peaked... it wouldn't produce much power at all in the lower rpms (and be quite slow unless you really wound out the gears and dropped the clutch).

The 4-Speed of course also has a 3.65:1 gear ratio, unless it's the eco or the performance one with the 4.10 that someone swapped in. Compared to a Th-125c that would only come with a 2.84:1, 3.08:1, or a 3.33:1... it doesn't have the same response either.

I would think 13s would be pretty exxagerated... but maybe more like consistent low 14s.

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Todd,
2008 Jeep Patriot Limited 4x2
2002 Ford Explorer Sport 2dr 4x2
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter

Yes, your car could have hit 210hp on a dyno. You probably have an estmated 230-240 hp at the crank.
Whoever said that it is impossible has no clue about these engines. Some of the S-10 folks have gotten normally asprated 3.4L pushrods as high as 240 rwhp on the trucks. With boost I've seen the 3.4L pushrods with iron heads get over 330rwhp.

Some things to take into account, Different dyno's (brands) can vary the readings by as much as 10%. Mustang Dyno's and Dynojets tend to vary that much between them. The two 3.4L engines I built had an estimated 232hp at the crank based on the rwhp reading on a mustang dyno. I could have probably gained 5-10 rwhp by running across a dynojet. So if you happen to run your car on a dyno and not get the same results, It could be a simple matter of being a different style/brand of dyno.

quote Originally posted by rpro: Well, if you figure out how to get that kind of horsepower, be sure to tell me how. I have a very well built performance 3.4PR with a crane 2030 cam, headers, ocelot exhaust, bigger injectors, performance chip and massaged heads. The best it's ever done on a chassis dyno was 150 HP. Granted, the induction system is stock, but I seriously doubt anything less than gas or a turbo is going to make up that kind of a difference. Bottom line is, the cylinder heads on these engines are boat anchors. I've seen better breathing Briggs and Stratton heads.

2030 cam??? That isn't much larger than the stock cam and it's only a single profile cam. A larger dual profile cam will really wake up the engines power.
To give you some idea as to why the 2030 cam isn't a good performance cam,
Stock cam max lift is .420 on the intake and the Crane is .423. So you increased lift by .003. You would have gained more lift (.425) going to a 1.52 rocker arm and even more if you went with a 1.6 rocker arm.
The 2030 has a power range of 1500-4500 RPM. The 60* V-6's like to run up into the high 5000 RPM range and can run over 6000 rpm when built for performance.
All the 2030 does is increase your mid/upper horsepower slightly by shifting the torque curve higher up in the RPM range. While you may see a few HP increase at 4500 rpm, You will lose some low end torque because of the shift.

Ocelot exhaust is the same size as stock. Are you using the stock crossover pipe? With a stock intake and a small cam, you are not going to get much gain.
If it is an aftermarket performance chip, They do very little as well.
Bigger injectors are a waste if you are using the stock restrictive intake set-up. Think of it like putting the same size straw in a larger cup with more water in it. Here are some numbers to consider: The stock intake flows about 310 cfm max, (ported/polished they can get to around 325 cfm) The 2.8L engine needs 300 cfm at 6000rpm, the 3.4L needs 354 cfm at 6000 rpm. Do you see a problem there? FYI ~ The Trueleo EFI intake and the Edelbrock 4-bbl carb'd intake flow around 400cfm.

The H.O. iron heads (like the ones used on the Fiero 2.8L and the F-body 3.4L) when properly ported/polished can flow enough air for up to 300hp normally aspirated.
When ported properly they outflow the stock series II (aluminum heads) The heads I had done for both of the 3.4L engines were ported, polished, decked .010 (raised compression up slightly to 9.4:1) and used the SS valves.

If you want to get over 200 rwhp:

1. Get rid of the tiny cam and get a decent cam like the Crane 272 (if you can find one on a shelf) or the Crower Cams HI-DRAULIC HAULER / Performance Level 4 P/N 03050 which will make power in the RPM Power Range of 2200 to 6200.
I used the Comp Cams 1.52 roller tipped rockers and the Edelbrock performance lifters on my engine and it redlined at 6500 rpm.

2. Ditch the Ocelot and get a Borla or the WCF spintek set-up and either port the stock crossover pipe at the "Y" or go to full headers like the WCF or Trueleo set-up.

3. Ditch the stock intake set-up and get the Trueleo intake and a J-body 62mm TB. I use Accel 19# injectors as well (not sure what size your "larger injectors" are) Don't forget to use the Holley adjustable fuel pressure regulator to assist in tuning.

4. Ditch the "performance" chip and get a chip programmed off a dyno-tuning session.

That should get you the 50 or so rwhp you are missing.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 02-03-2010).]

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: using that calculator, I would need 340 crank hp, and like 250whp to run what I did... with a stock L67/m90 I do not see that happening.

Not everybody is a pro drag racer like you

quote Originally posted by rpro: Well, if you figure out how to get that kind of horsepower, be sure to tell me how. I have a very well built performance 3.4PR with a crane 2030 cam, headers, ocelot exhaust, bigger injectors, performance chip and massaged heads. The best it's ever done on a chassis dyno was 150 HP. Granted, the induction system is stock, but I seriously doubt anything less than gas or a turbo is going to make up that kind of a difference. Bottom line is, the cylinder heads on these engines are boat anchors. I've seen better breathing Briggs and Stratton heads.

Was it dyno'ed in the city you live in? Elevation is 6724'

quote Originally posted by rpro: Well, if you figure out how to get that kind of horsepower, be sure to tell me how. I have a very well built performance 3.4PR with a crane 2030 cam, headers, ocelot exhaust, bigger injectors, performance chip and massaged heads. The best it's ever done on a chassis dyno was 150 HP. Granted, the induction system is stock, but I seriously doubt anything less than gas or a turbo is going to make up that kind of a difference. Bottom line is, the cylinder heads on these engines are boat anchors. I've seen better breathing Briggs and Stratton heads.

That's about right for a stock intake 3.4 to the max. That's what mine got with that same cam, stock intake and Borla / FOCOA headers combo. Over last 7yrs I haven't seen anything higher with that combo.

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: Not everybody is a pro drag racer like you

Yea, Justins manual car with sub 280 CRANK HP, went 12.3@109mph.

If this 60degree motor cant muster a low 13, it is not making 200whp.

DarkHorizon,

I have never drag raced a car before, although I have spanked my share of ricers in a manual transmission Fiero. You're telling me that if I couldn't go down to the track without much experience I should be able to muster a low 13? An N/A 3800 makes similar stats and I have not seen one of those pull a low 13 stock before, but I could be wrong.

A car, PARTICULARLY a manual transmission car, is going to have times heavily affected by driver skill/clutch.

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: Not everybody is a pro drag racer like you

*snicker*
...
...
...
anyway...
Um... The question was could you hit 210hp with your configuration. Yes you could. Key word is Could. Let us know when you run it on the dyno.

I have already had it dyno tuned and they said 210HP...the reason I asked if that was possible is because several people told me that it was impossible or that I must have broken some kind of record, which is obviously not true.

quote Originally posted by MadDanceSkillz: I have already had it dyno tuned and they said 210HP...the reason I asked if that was possible is because several people told me that it was impossible or that I must have broken some kind of record, which is obviously not true.

Did they give you the dyno chart? That would be nice evidence to you. If you are happy with it then I wouldn't worry to prove anything here. With your mods and a tune from an experienced tuner (no mail order nor backyard tuner) I think it could get there. If you don't have evidence from the tuner and just want to verify the results then a dyno session would bring peace of mind.

quote Originally posted by MadDanceSkillz: DarkHorizon, I have never drag raced a car before, although I have spanked my share of ricers in a manual transmission Fiero. You're telling me that if I couldn't go down to the track without much experience I should be able to muster a low 13? An N/A 3800 makes similar stats and I have not seen one of those pull a low 13 stock before, but I could be wrong. A car, PARTICULARLY a manual transmission car, is going to have times heavily affected by driver skill/clutch.

Meh, my "average" times with an auto were high 12's, and justins "average" times with the manual were mid 12's. take away 10-15hp, and average times in the low 13s would result.

I am far from a pro, and Justin ran mid 12's the first time he drove the car at the track fully... the 60ft times were far from amazing.

I had a printout with lines for torque and HP, but I lost it. I think it blew out of the car during the wreck along with a bunch of my other papers (And some of my money!)

I'm not worried about proving anything here. The only reason people are giving me crap about it is because they spent more on their swap than I did for the whole car this engine came in and mine is within a few HP of theirs. haha. I guess I did do some modding myself, but it was nothing terribly major.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Yea, Justins manual car with sub 280 CRANK HP, went 12.3@109mph. If this 60degree motor cant muster a low 13, it is not making 200whp.

You are way incorrect or have no clue what you are talking about.

200 rwhp will give you a high 13 second run in a Fiero.

Whoever "Justin" is lied to you. He has to be near 300 rwhp to run a low 12 run if he is driving a Fiero.

Way back in the day 1FST2M6 dyno'd his car around 270 rwhp (2.8L with NOS) and ran a 12.9 second run.

Sorry but there is no way a 2700-2800 lbs vehicle is going to run a low 13 second run with 200 rwhp. Not unless it can somehow break the laws of physics.

EDIT: I am not saying you didn't run those times, I am saying that the amout of rwhp is more than you think if you ran those times.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 02-03-2010).]