1987 Fiero GT v6 Getrag 5-speed
well, been a while since i have done any work on the Fiero, but the jeep is gone and i now need a car, so i got in the thing the other day, and pressed on the clutch pedal and there was virtually no resistance, like there was no fluid in the line. now previously i had gotten it to the point where it was pretty good, i had bleed it out, and it was ok, still not quite enough travel to fully disengage the clutch, but close, but that could be due to the slightly tweaked banjo rod. I was even able to go out for a test drive. So what could have happened? The car has done nothing but sit in the parking lot. The last time i tried to move it, it was obvious the clutch was not even close to disengaged with my foot on the floor.

The issue is that despite the time i spent bleeding it out, mityvac and all, let it sit a couple months and now we're back to square one...why?
I have taken apart both the master and slave cylinders. The seals were ok in both, there was no scoring on the walls, and only minor corrosion in the area where the seals don’t go, which i polished out.
Mind you, while i would not be against resealing them both with new seals and maybe doing a little more work honing out the cylinders, i don’t see a need to replace them, they appear to be fine. This is where I’m stuck.

Edit: Hamster thought: is it possible that in bleeding the last time that i broke the bubbles up finely enough for that thing to work, and now they have had a chance to congregate into pockets large enough to cause this malfunction? Just theorizing here, cause I’m stuck.


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Wyotech Sacramento Alumni. ASE A6, A8, L1 and Certified. CA SMOG License.
1987 Pontiac Fiero GT 5-speed, 102k -Amber- been sitting for 10 years, the resurection has begun!
1987 Pontiac Fiero GT, 151,000 miles! decklid window, More pics of my 87 GT can be found here <-SOLD
1985 Pontiac Fiero 2m4 auto, 222K miles and counting <-recently lost to arson (6yo bro playing with fire) RIP!
2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee 3.7L 4x4, 78K <-Ex. Daily driver -Lost to the repo man
A 4 year olds knowledge of science: No matter how much jello you put into a swimming pool you still can't walk on water.

[This message has been edited by tednelson83 (edited 11-07-2009).]

Did you use V8 Archies method of bleeding the slave cylinder? Archie suggests compressing the slave cylinder then perform the bleeding process, you'll get the results that you described if you don't because there is an air bubble that gets trapped. V8 Archies is listed in the vendors section, look for "archisms". I would pull back the boot on the slave, pull back the carpet under the master check for leaks then try bleeding it w/o the mityvac.

edit.... I knew I had a picture to help explain.I jammed a door stop between arm and push rod.



http://www.v8archie.com/

[This message has been edited by jetman (edited 11-07-2009).]

yup, i did that last, i dismounted the slave held the thing at a slant with the bleader up, and pushed it in by hand, just like he said. i did this a few times.

Has the fluid level changed at all in the reservoir?

nope, still full, hence the confusion. frankly i wish it had droped or something. that would give me something to trace.

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Wyotech Sacramento Alumni. ASE A6, A8, L1 and Certified. CA SMOG License.
1987 Pontiac Fiero GT 5-speed, 102k -Amber- been sitting for 10 years, the resurection has begun!
1987 Pontiac Fiero GT, 151,000 miles! decklid window, More pics of my 87 GT can be found here <-SOLD
1985 Pontiac Fiero 2m4 auto, 222K miles and counting <-recently lost to arson (6yo bro playing with fire) RIP!
2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee 3.7L 4x4, 78K <-Ex. Daily driver -Lost to the repo man
A 4 year olds knowledge of science: No matter how much jello you put into a swimming pool you still can't walk on water.

ok, im back at this now, and still at the same place. im gonna go out and bleed the system again. see if that works. thinking about just replaceing the cylinders to see if itat fixes the problem, but i hate just plindly throwing money at a problem.

I like the two person bleeding method much more. I think the sudden movement of the fluid tends to get the air bubbles to move (out the bleeder). I suspect the mighty vac tends to suck air into the bleeder threads, and also might tend to suck air in through the seals. I can get a firm pedal much quicker with the two person method than I can with the mighty vac method.

Two person method - pump the pedal three times and hold it - second person cracks the bleeder till the pedal drops to about the floor, and then retightens the bleeder right away.

idk on why you lost your 'bleed'

No on the tiny bubbles thought - they would have compressed the same if they were many tiny bubbles or one large one.

I had a similar problem and even replaced my master. I'm now 99% sure it's my slave seals and have purchased the MR2 rebuild kit and will report my findings back after I get it going.

quote Originally posted by Freshj: I had a similar problem and even replaced my master. I'm now 99% sure it's my slave seals and have purchased the MR2 rebuild kit and will report my findings back after I get it going.

mr2 kit? explain please.

The MR2 kit only works with 4-speed and Isuzu slaves. But you can get the same thing (a dual seal piston) if you get Rodney Dickman's new Getrag slave. See his website for details.

ah, yes i was planning on using rodneys if i need to replace the slave. for now i jusw went to tognottis to order a new master since i know it needs to be replaced.

I was having the same problem with my '88 Getrag system. I found that it was the brand new seal on the slave leaking air but not fluid. It wasn't pressing against the cylinder wall hard enough to allow normal bleeding to work because letting up on the pedal would just let air into the slave. Applying pressure would expand the cup seal and no fluid would leave the system.

I fixed it by inserting an o-ring 'under' the cup seal. It acts as a spring to hold the sealing surface against the cylinder wall more firmly. Now the system acts normally and I haven't had any trouble out of the inferior cast-iron slave in 2 years or so. That said, my next one will be one of Rodney's dual-seal units.

No, I don't remember the size of the o-ring... It came from a Harbor-Freight kit with all kinds of different sizes. I just picked the one that fit under there and barely pushed out on the seal.

Red 5spd Formula
Trot, the gravity-bled, fox...

I have similar experience with the slave on my Formula. It seems that if I let the system go for 4 yrs without a flush, it will gradually stop holding while stopped. It slowly bleeds down and slowly starts engaging the clutch. When this happens, I can still drive it if I shift quickly and don't hold the clutch in at a stop. There's no fluid loss, so there's no external leak. To fix it, I disassemble the system, hone the slave cylinder (the master always looks fine), clean everything out, reassemble, and bleed. Then I'm good for another 3-4 yrs. Now, I try to do a flush every year or two. I haven't done this long enough to know if it is working.

I highly, highly recommend anyone working on the clutch or brake system of a vehicle to at least have something like this, or find someone who does.

http://www.harborfreight.co...&zmac=112&zmap=39522

I replaced the clutch master cylinder on my Indy a couple of months ago, and using this tool was able to bleed and replaced all the old fluid in the clutch line with new in about 15 to 20 minutes.
I put the cluch master cylinder on dry, and filled the reservoir and pulled the fluid through keeping the reservoir full. Did not block the slave either. I did have the car slightly elevated on the driver side, in case air would get in the slave. Pedal is best it has ever been. Releases closer to the half way or point or just above, instead of closer to the floor.

Kevin

Is it possible to do a gravity bleed and see if the seals in the slave are indeed failing somehow? Have the slave cylinder lower than the master cylinder.
Leave the car, for a while, with the front up on jack stands and let the fluid gravity bleed to the slave, and just let it stay that way for a week or more and see if the slave cylinder seal is letting fluid out.
Just a thought.
-Dave

hey guys, is it possible to see visualy if the pedal is bent? i noticed that it is not above the brake pedle as it should be. as i recall it could be pulled up into proper position with the banjo rod disconnected so i dismissed it as a possability, but now as i think about it, i know the banjo rod is slightly tweaked and weakened from being bent and straitened twice, hence the need to replace it, but i know it cant be THAT bent. the clutch pedle sits just below the brake. so is there any visual clues that it is bent with out removing it? can it be straitened if it is bent? i have confirmed this IS the steel one, magnets dont stick to aluminum.

quote Originally posted by Lambo nut: I highly, highly recommend anyone working on the clutch or brake system of a vehicle to at least have something like this, or find someone who does. http://www.harborfreight.co...&zmac=112&zmap=39522

These aren't bad, but sometimes they will suck air around seals or pistons if they're a bit worn. I recommend a pressure bleeder. I have a Mityvac and a Motive pressure bleeder.

I don't use the Mityvac anymore. I bled my clutch last week. I messed up on getting the bleeding started and introduced air. But then it bled out the air in about 10 seconds.

[This message has been edited by Formula Owner (edited 03-07-2010).]

quote Originally posted by tednelson83: ah, yes i was planning on using rodneys if i need to replace the slave. for now i jusw went to tognottis to order a new master since i know it needs to be replaced.

Leaking at the carpet?

quote Originally posted by phonedawgz: Leaking at the carpet?

nope, bent banjo rod. but no fluid leaks. i had both cylingers apart. i cleaned them out, checked the seals, all looked good, but i still have a problem. so gonna replace the master, and if i still have a problem im gonna throw rodneys slave at it. car has been dormant tor the last 10 years so i suppose replaceing them wouldnt be a bad thing, and if nothing else ill have some spares. still need an answer on the pedle thing.

did you find any physical leaks around the car? the entire clutch line?
if the slave is bled and you say the master and slave are in good condition then it should operate at its potential.
does the line have a rubber hose below the slave cylinder ... maybe the reinforcement broke and it just balloons out
when you press the pedal, its a stretch but maybe.

quote Originally posted by Formula Owner: These aren't bad, but sometimes they will suck air around seals or pistons if they're a bit worn. I recommend a pressure bleeder. I have a Mityvac and a Motive pressure bleeder. I don't use the Mityvac anymore. I bled my clutch last week. I messed up on getting the bleeding started and introduced air. But then it bled out the air in about 10 seconds.

Agreed the pressure bleeding system would be better, but also cost more. That's why I said "at least have something like this", afraid even that might be more then some would want to spend.
I have had good luck with my Mighy Vac so far. I usually gravity bleed, but it was going to take a while with the clutch cylinder is why I grabbed it.

Kevin.

Hey y'all,
I'm tackling a similar situation right now. I'm glad I found this one. Thanks everyone for posting.

I'm suspecting a bent clutch pedal, but, as far as I can tell, it already has the steel one in there. I'll check tomorrow with a magnet. What's the geometry of the brake and clutch pedals when sitting next to each other. Right now they look about even with each other. Also, is it difficult to remove. Looking up under the dash it looks like a pita.

Ted, if I think of any ideas for your situation I'll tell 'em. Maybe we have the same problem. I'll be interested to see what yours is.

-Michael

so nothing on spotting a bent pedle int eh car guys? i would find that usefull to know.

EDIT: ok, i just looked, and i think it looks like the pin that holds the banjo rod is bent towards the inside of the car. can i just bend it back?

[This message has been edited by tednelson83 (edited 03-09-2010).]

quote Originally posted by tednelson83: so nothing on spotting a bent pedle int eh car guys? i would find that usefull to know. EDIT: ok, i just looked, and i think it looks like the pin that holds the banjo rod is bent towards the inside of the car. can i just bend it back?

id think it would get fatigued and possibly break. On a side note. do you still want the clutch master you emailed me about

quote Originally posted by 87antuzzi: id think it would get fatigued and possibly break. On a side note. do you still want the clutch master you emailed me about

no, i ended up buying one from togontti's, but i could use a good clutch peddle.

i probably will try bending it back, it is not too far off. i removed it earlier today. only took like a half an hour to get off using the directions on archies site. i want to gat this damn car on the road ASAP! i am growing tired of watching it sit around, and i need a car of my own instead of borrowing cars.

quote Originally posted by tednelson83: no, i ended up buying one from togontti's, but i could use a good clutch peddle. i probably will try bending it back, it is not too far off. i removed it earlier today. only took like a half an hour to get off using the directions on archies site. i want to gat this damn car on the road ASAP! i am growing tired of watching it sit around, and i need a car of my own instead of borrowing cars.

i was at tognattias yesterday . i was going to give ya a call but lost your number

ok, i pulled the peddle, and tweaked it sone, stuck it back in, and now it sits a little above the brake peddle. i suppose i could tweak it a little more if i have to, but it seems ok for now. i also adjusted the shift cable. i can now get into every gear while the car is running except reverse. i cant even get into reverse with the car off. is there some lock out i dont know about? i dont think there is. also, in every gear, while it may go in, it is not smoothe. it takes a fair bit of effort, more than i think there should be, is this normal? could it be that this is the result of sitting for so many years? or is my tranny messed up? hmmm, perhaps i should start a new thread since this is no longer a hydraulic issue.

[This message has been edited by tednelson83 (edited 03-11-2010).]