So I'm going to paint my 87 gt this weekend. Doing it a cheaply as I can so I'm keeping my finers crossed. I have never painted anything in my life. After about 30 minutes on google I now consider my self a pro . Anyways here is my plan of attack. If there is anything I left out please let me know.

Wetsand the whole car down to bare plastic. About 25 bucks

Rent a 20 gallon air compress or. 50-70 bucks.

Buy 10 dollar gun from harbor freight

Shoot dupli color paint shop series primer. 25 bucks

Then shoot 5-8 coats of the duplicolor silver or blue. 50 bucks

Shoot many coats of duplicolor clear coat. 25 bucks

Wetsand again. 25 bucks

Buff out the final product. 25 bucks.

Like I said I am a noob on this painting stuff. My spray booth is rather state of the art. There is plenty of light (the sun). A lot of good ventilation (a soft wind from the east). And the perfect temputure (summer at last!!!). So what I'm saying I'm painting my car outside in my driveway. If there are any steps or suggested you have please let me know. Or if anyone around the Sacramento area wants to help I will give you gas and 1 hour at my parts car. So any help will be used. Thanks

I don't want to discourage you, but you're wasting your time. If I'm not mistaken, you're talking about laquer primer & paint. It may turn out OK, but it will not last (especially outside in the weather), & you'll wind up having to strip it all off when you do it right. Laquer primer is NOT the thing to use on any fiberglass, plastic, or urethane panels.
My advice:
1) Don't buy any paint or rent the compressor untill you're ready to paint it.
2) Do all the prep & get everything slick & clean. If you need to do repairs, you'll need to prime (see below) & block out those areas.
3) When you're ready, buy PPG epoxy primer & Dupont Nason base/clear. Nason is a cheap alternative to better quality paint, but it's not bad. I use it on my own cars, when they are not "worth" (I'm a poor man) using the Sikkens clear I useally use. http://angelonearth.net/BMW.html
4) If the car is slick, you can prime, paint, & clear all in the same day without sanding (using the PPG epoxy primer).
Do a search for my username & I think you'll find all the info you'll need to do the car right.
HTH,
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Readin' don't not never done nuttin' for not nobody.
"I think you mean not nonebody."
Excuse me: not nonebody. Never not no one. Didn't about no reason not never. And, by God, they never not ain't gonna' will!

I just did the math --- go to Maaco - or your local discount national paint chain and let them do it! Prep the car as best you can but let a painter paint the car --- you'll be glad you did. But if you do it yourself --best of luck and I hope it turns out well.

You do not have to sand down to bare plastic. Even if you have sun fading. Use sandable primer. Lay on a couple of coats then wet sand. The imperfections will then show up. For larger imperfections use body putty. It is red and comes in a tube. It is much thinner than bondo. This stage is where you should spend the most time. Preparation is the most important. When you think you are close, then wet sand with 220, then 400.
Now you are ready for the final primer.
Make sure that you use a prep solvent then a tack cloth before you prime.

After priming I lightly sand with 400 grit. Dry not wet.
Then blow it off, and tack rag.

now comes the color coat. If you use a metalic paint your are most likely to have a less than acceptable final paint job.
It is much harder to screw up a non metalic color like red, yellow, blue, black, etc.
4-6 light coats should give you good coverage.
Again light sand dry, blow off and tack rag before clear coat.

You need to lay on enough clear so that you can wet sand off about half of it. 4-6 coats should do it.

Dont worry if it looks like you painted it with spray cans. You can easily get it looking like glass after a wet sand and polish

wait about 2 days or more for the paint to dry.
Remember not to over sand in any areas specially edges. You can sand right through the clear coat. That is why you want a lot of clear on it. You could even put 8-10 coats of clear on it.
Start with 600 grit and wet sand the entire car. Take it about 50% to final sand. Do not use 220 or 400 since these go too deap and you could end up with deap scratches.
Then use 1000 grit
Then 1500 grit
Finally 2000 grit. You want to be at about 90% smooth when you finish the 2000 grit.
Remember not to over sand.
Now comes the polish.
Do not use rubbing compound, it is too course.
You will need to use about 4 levels of polish. The polish is available at the auto body paint supply store.
It cannot contain any wax or silicones.
Start with medium, then light , then a standard polish then finally pre wax cleaner. Meguires makes all of these.
You cannot wax the car for at least 3 months. You must allow the solvents to get out. Waxing early could result in blistering.

You don't need to rent a compressor. You can buy one for about a hundred dollars or less. Look for a Sears outlet in the area or a sale at Sears. Buy a dryer also. It will keep the moisture out of the line. Drain the moistur out of the tank frequently.
Do not paint if the humidity is high, this will cause clouding.
Since there is a lot of sanding you may need the compressor for 2 weekends. Plus it is nice to own a compressor. Think of touch ups in the future and all kinds of other uses.
The Harbor Freight spray guns are very good, so that is a good choice.
I would be a little reluctant to buy their compressor. It may be good I dont know, but the Sears stuff is good and will last for years. I have a Campbel Hausfeld I got at Sears and it is over 25 years old.
I have painted a lot of cars in the driveway. If you do a good initial prep, you can correct most of the paint mistakes with a good wet sand and polish. Email me at glenroble@att.net and I will be happy to answer as many questions as I can.

If you're looking for cheap, relatively easy, and better results than you might imagine, look into implement enamel at your local farm store. Comes in lots of colors, very durable (who waxes farm implements ?) and easy to spray with moderately priced equipment.

If you go this route, be sure to use the enamel hardener as it gives gloss comparable to base/clear and cures a lot faster.

One gallon implement enamel, one gallon lacquer thinner, a pint of hardener, a Wagner Control Spray HVLP sprayer and some masking tape was all less than $125.

Laquer does take a lot more care to keep it looking great. Ive painted cars in it 30 years ago that still look good enough to win car shows. Some of George Barris's (King of custom cars) did custome jobs in the 50s in laquer that still show today. All those old custom candy paint jobs are ALL laquer. I wont use ANY primer other than laquer primer surfacer to this day. Everything thats come to me with catalyzed primer ended as a nitemare that I had to eat. Ive been doing custom and exotic cars since 1960s. I just retired this past fall after owning my own custom and exotic business in the same location for 25 years. I have so many satisfied repeat customers, I cant count them. Even dealers in Corvettes and European exotics send me their customers cars. New basecoat clearcoat urathane IS far more durable. But ask any biker with a custom motorcycle if its laquer and in most cases it is still. On some older exotics that were done in laquer originally, customer wants repairs done to match their original parts. You cant hardly find colors anymore except in basecoat colors. So I do the new basecoat color and topcoat it with laquer clear. Basecoat paints right now are more comparable to old laquer than any other paint. If you read the label on basecoat color, it reads nearly identical to what a can of laquer says on it. People brought up on new paint only dont know what their talking about when it comes to older stuff. Shops I worked at invented most of the custom techniques that are still done....some that CANT be done with anything other than laquer. We done some of the first pearl paint jobs by using gallons of fingernail polish (which is also laquer) to achieve the look. Others were using powdered and ground fish scales disolved in laquer to get the translucent shimmering colors before Dupont ever thought of anything like it. Airbrushed woodgrain that looks like REAL wood HAS to be done with laquer to get the effect.

Would your job be good for an amature....maybe no, maybe yes. Using laquer or any other paint dont have anything to do with it. Some of the best jobs I seen done in the 50s were with plain old straight Enamel. It took days to dry if you didnt have a bake oven, but those jobs looked like they were coated in porcelin. You can still find parts in junkyards that will polish up and look good that have been there for 50 years.

(steps off of stool)

------------------

Owner / Operator Custom Paint and Body...
specializing in Corvette & Higher End Autos for 40+ years
Ferrari, Mercedes and Porsche Approved
____________________________________________

05 Dodge Magnum Custom Hemi R/T
66 Dodge Killer Bee Coronet

This is Nason paint. I used 2K primer not epoxy, your call.
I did not sand down to the plastic, but did in most cases to the original primer.
Hats off to anyone that can, prime, base and clear in the same day. I just don't have that much energy anymore!

Also I sprayed 2-3 coats of base and clear, I don't see any need to spray 5 coats, too thick!
sparx22

[This message has been edited by sparx22 (edited 06-08-2009).]

in any event, when base clearing, 2 coats base, 2 coats clear. any more is a waste & looking for trouble.

Your both right

You cant sand enamel untill its cured a longggggggg time at least several months. Baking can speed it up.

I always do 2 coats of base (except rare hard to cover colors), 2 coats of clear (3 if im color sanding and buffing it, you remove one).

Do your self a big favor do not sand down to the plastic. you will be asking for trouble.
other than that go for it. paint is better than no paint
D.

quote Originally posted by groble: For larger imperfections use body putty. It is red and comes in a tube.

Do NOT use this product! It's the world's WORST product ever made in the hands of am ametuer, & it's FOUR DECADES out of date (so is laquer primer). It was made to fill VERY FINE scratches ONLY. Used for anything else it will never dry.
You can use laquer if you like. It just seems to me that with all the time it takes to do the prep, it makes a LOT more sense to use the current technology that WILL make it MUCH MORE DURABLE so that you will not have to wax it every week, & still re-do it later (stripping all the laquer off). Sure, if you keep the car in a heated garage & don't drive it except on nice weekends & to shows a laquer paintjob will last for decades. I've painted a lot of laquer show cars myself, back before there was such a thing as epoxy primer & base/clear.
PPG epoxy primer will stick better to the original primer/paint/material, & paint will stick better to it. Base/clear will be as easy to paint as laquer, & will last for decades if left out in the weather & ignored. I can't see ANY reason to shortcut it after you spend so much time on the prep (& you will). Save up & spend the extra $150 or so on quality materials.
It's not a big deal to prime & paint all in the same day. You can do that ONLY with epoxy primer (& only if the car is slick - sanded wet with 320 is fine). I usually prep the car with 180, epoxy prime, & let it dry for a few days & wet sand it with 400. But the OP has to rent a compressor, so I told him the technique & materials to do it all at once. I did that with the BMW (in the above link) & it works out quite well.
Again, check out my other posts on the subject for just about everything you need to know to prep, paint, sand, & buff the car out for a show quality job.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

"James Lewis - get away from that wheelbarrow; you know you don't know nutin' 'bout machinery!"

I totally agree, the stuff in the tube was OK for Earl Shieb, 40 years ago, but is real garbage. for "spot putty" use "polyester spot putty" comes in a can & must use hardener. dries faster, harder, easy to sand, & does not shrink. was in autobody bussiness for 30 years.

Well I'm not going to paint with the duplicolor. I instead am going to use bmw graphite gunmetal. At 214 dollars a gallon it better be a good looking paint.

quote Originally posted by 87antuzzi: Well I'm not going to paint with the duplicolor. I instead am going to use bmw graphite gunmetal. At 214 dollars a gallon it better be a good looking paint.

You won't be able to sand & buff it if it's single stage, without disturbing the metallic.
You can get the same color in Nason basecoat at probably less than half that. About $120 for the Nason clear & catalysts, & you have paint that is eaiser to shoot & buff out.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

You just shot an unarmed man!
"Well, he should have armed himself." - Clint Eastwood

my bad i meant 114 a gallon. and the guy said it is a 1 stage paint. so who knows

I can primer a car and sand it 20 mins later for paint. I have NO use for 2 part epoxy primer except maybe to put over a crap Sheib paint job to keep it from lifting. I will say theyre right about tube putty. Its not good for anything except small pinholes that can be filled with laquer primer quite easily. Ferrari specifies to use Nitrocellulose primer over a coat of zinc-chromate in body repairs (laquer).

If you use hardener in the single stage, you can color sand and buff it just like base/clear in a month or so. Ive done show cars in it. Imron is a single stage glossy 2 part paint thats used to paint commercial (and private) aircraft. Its whats on an airliner where its constantly subjected to huge temp changes from 80* to -50* during nearly every flight. There never garaged and in the sky high where most of the UV protection of the atmospere is non existant. Theyre bombarded with sand and rain hitting them at 600 mph like a sandblaster. Seems to hold up OK for them.

Anything else you wanna throw at me to debunk, go ahead, im having a bad day.

------------------

Owner / Operator Custom Paint and Body...
specializing in Corvette & Higher End Autos for 40+ years
Ferrari, Mercedes and Porsche Approved
____________________________________________

05 Dodge Magnum Custom Hemi R/T
66 Dodge Killer Bee Coronet

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 06-08-2009).]

ok here is my final plan of attack! i am going to use this paint http://www.tcpglobal.com/ku...o=RSP%20UB2510-KIT-M and im going to candy it with this http://www.tcpglobal.com/ku...No=KUS%20UKK-8214-4Z so my big question will this look like a really deep blueish purple? i want a super deep paint job without having super deep pockets.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: I can primer a car and sand it 20 mins later for paint. I have NO use for 2 part epoxy primer except maybe to put over a crap Sheib paint job to keep it from lifting. I will say theyre right about tube putty. Its not good for anything except small pinholes that can be filled with laquer primer quite easily. Ferrari specifies to use Nitrocellulose primer over a coat of zinc-chromate in body repairs (laquer). If you use hardener in the single stage, you can color sand and buff it just like base/clear in a month or so. Ive done show cars in it. Imron is a single stage glossy 2 part paint thats used to paint commercial (and private) aircraft. Its whats on an airliner where its constantly subjected to huge temp changes from 80* to -50* during nearly every flight. There never garaged and in the sky high where most of the UV protection of the atmospere is non existant. Theyre bombarded with sand and rain hitting them at 600 mph like a sandblaster. Seems to hold up OK for them. Anything else you wanna throw at me to debunk, go ahead, im having a bad day.

Yeah Roger we know.
You use Zinc Chromate primer on Ferraris because they're made of aluminum. You couldn't use laquer primer on the aluminum, but you COULD use epoxy primer & it will stick as well or better than the zinc chromate - imagine that. You also couldn't use zinc chromate on a Fiero, which is what we're talking about here. The absolute BEST primer to use on the Fiero (& metal cars too for that matter) is PPG epoxy. If it wasn't, I wouldn't spend my money on it 'cause I don't have much money.
You ever seen an airplane primed with laquer primer? Wouldn't last six months.
The problem with sanding & buffing single stage metallics, is that the metallic has to be laid down PERFECTLY even all the way through. If it's not it will become blotchy when you sand it. I've done it several times before, but I wouldn't recomend it for the beginner. As for Imron, in fact I painted my mother's Cordoba with Imron (but I striped & cleared it) & it's never had a single coat of wax on it, & it still looks good after 20 years (except for where it rusted through from the inside 'cause my stupid neice parked it in the woods for 7 years). But it dosen't have laquer primer under it either.
I hope you have a lot better days than yesterday.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Headline: APATHY RUNS RAMPANT - Nobody cares.

[This message has been edited by Tha Driver (edited 06-09-2009).]

Airplanes are NEVER primered. For one thing no one ever sands them which primer must be. For those you use a special zinc chromate that is a non sanding sealer then immediately paint over that. The bare aluminum is also anodyzed to make a superior adhesion. Another major factor is the weight. If you use a 55 gallon drum of paint, that weight is added to the airframe. Without doing the math, each drum would add the same weight as 2 passengers or 55 gallons of fuel. A large twin engine plane can use 2-3 drums of paint...I did them for Aero Commander in Okla. Laquer primer is self etching to actually 'burn' into metal. Far as I know cataylzed primer just sets there on top of the surface. If I leave laquer primer in my gun for long times, it actually eats the metal up. I have to replace my primer gun every year or so. Laquer primer softens to some extent when you paint over it to form a bond between the 2. (per Ferrari repair manual). Wouldnt they use epoxy if it was that much better on a $200,000+ car. As far as I know, 2 part primer when its dry, is impervious to just about anything...even hard to get off with thinner. So your paint just ends up setting on the surface. I can take a razor blade and shave the paint off of it. The best 'primer' for a plastic Fiero is the base coat of the original paint if its good. Sand off the bad spots and the bad clear and paint right on it. I also dont have to keep putting a car in a booth everytime I need to spray a spot of primer or covering everything in the shop with it. The laquer primer dries in the air within a few feet of leaving the gun.
Cost...whats 2 part primer, like $50-$75 a quart? acrylic laquer primer/ surfacer costs me $35 @ gallon. 2 full hard coats on a whole body ends up costing me maybe $20 total. Same thing with 2 part probably closer to $100+. Laquer primer sands easier (dry anyway, which I do) and you can reprime places over and over again as much as you want in a very short time. No need to let it set for hours. Shop near me did a beautiful job last summer on an old Hudson. The guy did his own body work (pretty decent job too) and used your epoxy gray primer. They painted it in PPG base/clear. They got it back a few months ago with all the paint peeling off the primer. Theyre redoing it. You do what you want and Ill do what I want. Just dont keep telling people your the only one that knows exactly how to do it and theres no other way but yours. I seen the pics of your BMW and it looks great and if you did it all your way good for you. But people like Barris and Winfield done superior work with what they used too.

------------------

Owner / Operator Custom Paint and Body...
specializing in Corvette & Higher End Autos for 40+ years
Ferrari, Mercedes and Porsche Approved
____________________________________________

05 Dodge Magnum Custom Hemi R/T
66 Dodge Killer Bee Coronet

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 06-09-2009).]

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Airplanes are NEVER primered. For one thing no one ever sands them which primer must be. For those you use a special zinc chromate that is a non sanding sealer then immediately paint over that. The bare aluminum is also anodyzed to make a superior adhesion. Another major factor is the weight. If you use a 55 gallon drum of paint, that weight is added to the airframe. Without doing the math, each drum would add the same weight as 2 passengers or 55 gallons of fuel. A large twin engine plane can use 2-3 drums of paint...I did them for Aero Commander in Okla. Laquer primer is self etching to actually 'burn' into metal. Far as I know cataylzed primer just sets there on top of the surface. If I leave laquer primer in my gun for long times, it actually eats the metal up. I have to replace my primer gun every year or so. Laquer primer softens to some extent when you paint over it to form a bond between the 2. (per Ferrari repair manual). Wouldnt they use epoxy if it was that much better on a $200,000+ car. As far as I know, 2 part primer when its dry, is impervious to just about anything...even hard to get off with thinner. So your paint just ends up setting on the surface. I can take a razor blade and shave the paint off of it. The best 'primer' for a plastic Fiero is the base coat of the original paint if its good. Sand off the bad spots and the bad clear and paint right on it. I also dont have to keep putting a car in a booth everytime I need to spray a spot of primer or covering everything in the shop with it. The laquer primer dries in the air within a few feet of leaving the gun. Cost...whats 2 part primer, like $50-$75 a quart? acrylic laquer primer/ surfacer costs me $35 @ gallon. 2 full hard coats on a whole body ends up costing me maybe $20 total. Same thing with 2 part probably closer to $100+. Laquer primer sands easier (dry anyway, which I do) and you can reprime places over and over again as much as you want in a very short time. No need to let it set for hours. Shop near me did a beautiful job last summer on an old Hudson. The guy did his own body work (pretty decent job too) and used your epoxy gray primer. They painted it in PPG base/clear. They got it back a few months ago with all the paint peeling off the primer. Theyre redoing it. You do what you want and Ill do what I want. Just dont keep telling people your the only one that knows exactly how to do it and theres no other way but yours. I seen the pics of your BMW and it looks great and if you did it all your way good for you. But people like Barris and Winfield done superior work with what they used too.

Zinc chromate IS a primer & that's what they prime planes with. Laquer would just peel off of the aluminum. You're right about one thing: the reason they don't use epoxy is the weight. Zinc chromate is very thin & will weigh a lot less than a coat of epoxy on a large plane.
Com'on Roger, you know laquer primer dosen't "burn" into the metal. It's not "self etching". Any chemical will eat into your gun if you leave it in all the time like you do.
You're right laquer softens when you shoot over it. That will help LAQUER PAINT to stick to it, as the laquer THINNER can still evaporate THRIUGH the laquer paint. Paint over it with urethane or anything catalyzed, & you TRAP THE REDUCER IN THE PRIMER. That is why you can shave off the paint with a razor blade when laquer primer is used. There is NO WAY to shave off paint with a blade if you use epoxy primer; your infomation is wrong!
Did the guy with the hudson use PPG epoxy primer??? Did they prep it right??? I'll bet the answer to both is NO! I've NEVER seen paint peel off of PPG epoxy primer under ANY circumstance. I had a car here that was primed with another brand of epoxy, & it was HARD AS A ROCK. I had to use 80 grit to sand it off. I'll bet the Hudson was primed with similiar cheap crap, & they didn't sand it well enough for the paint to stick. Find out more & let us know.
There are a LOT of ways to paint a car: I'm telling the fine folks here the BEST way to do it. The BEST way to make it look good & LAST. After all the work that goes into prep, I'd think that most of them want this info. If they choose to do it your way - using laquer primer so they don't have to clean out the gun & so they can sand it 30 minites later, it's their problem not mine.
I just can't understand why you always argue that laquer primer is better (or just as good) as epoxy when you KNOW it's EIGHTY year old technology & the new catalyzed shtuff is SO MUCH BETTER!
I CAN understand why YOU use it since you can turn out production work VERY quickly & make that $200,000 a year. I could too if I didn't care about how long my paintjobs would last. Painting a car in two days & getting $3,500 for it; yeah it's a great gig. I won't do it.
EDIT: Barris & Winfield used laquer because they built cars IN THE 50's & 60's!!! THAT was SIXTY YEARS ago!
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

If you can't take the heat, get out of the nuclear reactor.

[This message has been edited by Tha Driver (edited 06-09-2009).]

Sorry to burst your unknowing bubble but laquer primer surfacer IS SELF ETCHING (attaches into the metal surface). Again you dont know what the frick your talking about. It is as good as, not better than 2 part primer (if your one that likes it). Chromate is NOT a primer, only a chemical seal that lets the paint stick to aluminum. Its even transparent yellow, except the green that is not painted over. You cant tell me squat about planes since I painted them for the Aero Commander factory. Again you dont know what the frick your talking about. I do lots of high end and custom cars, quickie used cars are just filler to keep the cash flowing. Ive probably owned more show winning cars than youve even worked on for however many decades youve done it. Earl Shiebs been in business for 50 years too with the crap they put out. I have many show jobs out there that have been done for 10, 20 years or more and still look like the day they were done. Ive only seen paint peel in 2 circumstances off the primer. The few epoxy / 2 parts that have been brought to me, and anything put over the gray crap everyone sells. Ive never had anything peel off red oxide primer in my life unless you poured stripper on it. Its not my information, its my first hand personal experience. The only thing your obviously expert at is spouting off what you read in all the propaganda the paint suppliers tell ya. Ill bet they tell you that you cant put laquer clear over basecoat too. Guess what, it works just fine on the Ferraris Ive done that on. Ya, its still on one fine I did over 10 years ago that belongs to someone I know. All I know is the Hudson primer was sanded just like any other car they do, I have no idea what epoxy primer they used. They use PPG paint exclusively though. Ya Barris and Winfield were 60 years ago AND THEIR LAQUER PAINT JOBS STILL LOOK GOOD ...that my whole point you babbling idiot. When I see one of your jobs looking good after 60 years, then maybe you have a case.

Im too tired of all your stupid crap to keep going on and on and on and on with you here. Just take a can of your epoxy and pour it up your a---. Im not conceding anything to you, I just dont feel like arguing with a rock anymore. Most of the guys here want a nice looking car without breaking the bank, they dont need $1000 material bills for a car they have $1500 in. Just the same as a $80,000 engine might be better than a $1500 one, but how many Fiero people are gonna do that ? Cumon, most here dont want to spend $100 on a new interior, but I know people that spend $50,000 without blinking an eye.

Oh yea, if my work was so poorly done and customers were so dissatisfied....why do i have so many repeat customer and been in business all these years ? If I didnt know what I was doing, id have been out of business 20 years ago as I see it. I dont even advertise, and still have people beating my door down after I retired in October. This is the first full week Ive had since then to work on my own stuff for this years Mopar Nats. What have you been doing lately ?

Just for kicks, you know everything about primer and never heard of etching laquer primer. Heres a little info to show you know nothing about what your talking about.

"
Self Etching Primer

Primers, Surfacers, & Sealers Self Etching Primer (#5414-15) Hi-Solids Acrylic Lacquer Primer Surfacer (#5400C) Hi-Solids Acrylic Lacquer Primer Surfacer - Gray (#5400NR) Hot Rod Black Acrylic Lacquer Primer Surfacer - 2.1 VOC (#5401) Hot Rod Black Acrylic Lacquer Primer Surfacer - 4.8 VOC (#5403, 04) Maxx Fill 2K 2.1 High Build Urethane Primer Surfacer – Buff (#5455, 58) Maxx Fill 2K 4.4 High Build Urethane Primer Surfacer – Buff (#5453, 57) Maxx Fill 2K 2.1 High Build Urethane Primer Surfacer – Gray (#5452, 58) Maxx Fill 2K 4.4 High Build Urethane Primer Surfacer – Gray (#5451, 57) XTREME DTM High Build Primer – Black (#5424) XTREME DTM High Build Primer – Gray (#5425-26) XTREME Original Urethane Primer Surfacer/Sealer – Gray (#5885)

Enlarge Image




5414 5415

Filler primer for use on steel, fiberglass, aluminum and certain galvanized and zinc coated steel. Can be topcoated directly.

PRODUCT DESCRIPTION:
#5414 Self-Etching Primer and #5415 Etching Filler Reducer is a Chromate Free Metal Etching Filler that is ideal for spot/panel repairs where bare metal is present. It increases both adhesion and corrosion protection on bare substrates. It fills minor surface imperfections and may be topcoated directly for quick and easy repairs.

SUITABLE SUBSTRATES:
Steel, Fiberglass, Galvanized Steel, Cured Body Filler, Aluminum, OEM Enamel, OEM Lacquers.

PHYSICAL DATA:
V.O.C 5.83 lbs/gal
Volume Solids 11% (Mixed)
Film build full wet coats 1mil
Flash Point 48º F
Pot Life 24 Hours
Theoretical Coverage 176 sq. ft.

PRODUCTS:
Gallon Quart
Self-Etching Primer #5414-1 #5414-4
Etching Filler Reducer #5415-1 #5415-4

Mixing - National Rule:
1 part D.T.M. Etching Filler to 1 part D.T.M. Etching Filler Reducer

Mixing - West Coast S.C.A.Q.M.D.:
1 part D.T.M. Etching Filler to 1 part D.T.M. Etching Filler Reducer to 2 Parts 5 Star #5705 Medium Acrylic Lacquer Thinner.

Surface Preparation:
1. Solvent clean surface with 5 Star #5900 or #5905 wax and grease remover
2. Grind repair area to remove paint and all rust as needed
3. Apply body filler, if required
4. Sand all areas to be refinished and featheredge all broken film areas with 320 grit
5. Use 36" masking paper to prevent overspray problems

Application:
Spray at 5-9 PSI at the cap for HVLP or 30-35 PSI for conventional guns. Apply 2-3 medium wet coats allowing 2-3 minutes flash time between coats.

Drying:
Recoat in 30 minutes, Sand in 60 minutes, After 24 hours must be lightly scuffed before topcoating. Final dry film thickness should be a minimum of 1.0 mil.

SAFETY INFORMATION FOR INDUSTRY USE ONLY:
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BYE !

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 06-09-2009).]

Omg. We sorta get off topic quick lol.

quote Originally posted by 87antuzzi: Omg. We sorta get off topic quick lol.

They're on topic, just in the detail and facts section. This is actually very good debate dialogue because unlike many of the debates that occur here, you have two pros throwing around a lot of great information in an effort to prove a point, much if not all of which was correct at some point if not now. Somewhere along the lines the current facts will come out. I've learned a lot just reading through it.

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: They're on topic, just in the detail and facts section. This is actually very good debate dialogue because unlike many of the debates that occur here, you have two pros throwing around a lot of great information in an effort to prove a point, much if not all of which was correct at some point if not now. Somewhere along the lines the current facts will come out. I've learned a lot just reading through it.

Yeah I agree: it's an interesting debate. I would just give up on Roger but I want to make sure the folks here have up-to-date info. As such:
Roger; how many planes have you painted with laquer primer instead of zinc chromate? Try painting laquer primer on SMOOTH steel & see how well it "etches" & sticks. Yes Barris' cars still look good. They have been kept in garages all of their life & not driven AT ALL, & MOST of them have been re-done two or three times. I'd be willing to bet my life that a good job woth epoxy primer & urethane paint will last for AT LEAST 100 YEARS stored inside in a museum. What do I base my claim on? My paintjobs still look good after TWENTY YEARS having NEVER BEEN WAXED & LEFT OUTSIDE FOR THEIR ENTIRE LIFE. Can you say that about ANYTHING you've done in laquer?
I'm not gonna waste my time trying to convince you; it's obvious you're stuck in your ways & are not willing to bring your materials up to date. I can't say that I blame you, as you've made a killing using the cheaper materials & cutting corners. Wish I could do the same doing them RIGHT (as in to last as long as possobe).
Heh: I just checked the website you used & it's 5-Star products - which are CRAP.
Bottom line is if you want the BEST paintjob that will LAST the longest - but on a tight budget - you should use the PPG epoxy primer, & a quality decent paint such as the Dupont Nason. It just makes no sense to me WHATSOEVER to spend sooooo much time prepping a car only to use the CHEAPEST POSSIBLE primer & paint that WILL NOT last near as long or be near as durable in the REAL WORLD. On the cars I do for others, I use very expensive PPG or Sikkins clear, because I've seen the difference in DURABILITY & LONGEVITY. It's just that not everyone doing their own cars can afford to spend $450 just for clear alone - myself included.
I WILL say that a Fiero painted with laquer primer & paint WILL look great & much better than it does with peeling/faded original paint. It's just that it won't last near as long & when the owner has to re-do it they'll need to sand off ALL of the laquer to do it right.
I'm done here. The great folks here will have to decide for themselves what they're looking for & have to spend. On a side note; if you're buying a car that's been repainted - no matter how good it looks - ALWAYS make sure to find out what kind of prep & paint they used. If they can't answer satisfatorilly deduct at least $500 off of the value of the car just for stripping off the cheap paint job.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

You're Just Jealous that the voices talk to ME!

something to think about: if you prime 1 piece of Bare metal with laquer primer, & prime another piece of bare metal with a 2 part primer, put them both out in the rain.... the one with laquer primer WILL RUST ! laquer primer sucks up moisture. Been doing bodywork for 35 years, Laquer primer was good IN IT'S DAY. it's now obsolete. Alot of states have even outlawed it's use. A matter of what you like . 2 part can be sanded within an hour, & fills much better in my oppinion.

Hence why I use lacquer based basecoats for graphics so they can be masked and sanded quickly in between coats and top it with a good quality Urethane clearcoat.

quote Originally posted by IMSA GT: Hence why I use lacquer based basecoats for graphics so they can be masked and sanded quickly in between coats and top it with a good quality Urethane clearcoat.

Pretty much all basecoats (at least all I've tried, & that's several) can be masked off within 1/2 hour. I like to give them a little extra time, though. With the BMW I gave them about an hour after shooting the last coat of each color, before masking & shooting the next color. Custom paintjobs have been my "speciality" (if I have one) for nearly 40 years.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Each year, more children drown in buckets or pails than are accidentally killed with a firearm.

Sorry I forgot to thank Roger for the compliment on my BMW.
THANKS, Roger!
~ Paul

quote Originally posted by 87antuzzi: ... i have no idea what im doing!

Good luck to you. I think you're underestimating the materials and time you're going to need to paint your car and there's the chance you'll end up having something you won't be happy with. You'll then have wasted a lot of time and effort.

The best suggestion here was to prep the car yourself - remove the moldings, mirrors, sail panels, wheelwell liners etc, sand the entire car and fill any chips with the appropriate filler. Then have Maaco do a final prep and prime/sand/paint the car for you. There should be at least one Maaco where you can get an estimate. You could even look around and find someone who does body work in a "Garage Paintshop" at home.

Either way, an experienced "shooter" can lay the paint on properly - whereas all your tedious prep work could all be wasted if you screw up laying on the paint.

Good luck in whatever approach you take.

------------------

World of Wheels Winners
My 3.4L S/C 87 GT
& My SD4 Indy

quote Originally posted by Lou6t4gto: something to think about: if you prime 1 piece of Bare metal with laquer primer, & prime another piece of bare metal with a 2 part primer, put them both out in the rain.... the one with laquer primer WILL RUST ! laquer primer sucks up moisture. Been doing bodywork for 35 years, Laquer primer was good IN IT'S DAY. it's now obsolete. Alot of states have even outlawed it's use. A matter of what you like . 2 part can be sanded within an hour, & fills much better in my oppinion.

I'm with Lou and others on this one. I started painting over 25 years ago. Used laquer paint and primer in the begining, tried enamel later, then when I tried base/clear with 2 part primers, I never looked back.
I've done rally stripes on hoods (taped approx twenty/thirty minutes after the first base color was applied), and various other projects, and have yet to have anything peel off anywhere.

Kevin

quote Originally posted by Lambo nut: I'm with Lou and others on this one. I started painting over 25 years ago. Used laquer paint and primer in the begining, tried enamel later, then when I tried base/clear with 2 part primers, I never looked back. I've done rally stripes on hoods (taped approx twenty/thirty minutes after the first base color was applied), and various other projects, and have yet to have anything peel off anywhere. Kevin

Lambo,
So what type of tape did you use for this, it could save some time when painting the two tone bumper covers on Fieros/
Sparx22

quote Originally posted by steve308: I just did the math --- go to Maaco - or your local discount national paint chain and let them do it! Prep the car as best you can but let a painter paint the car --- you'll be glad you did. But if you do it yourself --best of luck and I hope it turns out well.

Out of all the expert advice here I think this is the best. You are way underestimating this work. I have been there. Next good advice I would give is to prep the car youself and hire someone to shoot paint. Painting and buffing car requires great skills but is quick compared to preping the car. You will save a lot of money and may end up with a way better paint job than the open garage tacky job.

"Roger; how many planes have you painted with laquer primer instead of zinc chromate?" where did I even come close to saying that. I said I painted planes for the factory with zinc chromate followed by Imron. Theres no mention of putting primer...i said just the opposite. Do you even read before you answer?

yes laquer primer does soak up water if left bare. I have said 2 part primer is fine for a bare metal car your going to have to leave outside while working on it...it does seal out moisture and rust. Once its painted over, laquer primer cant absorb it any more, so its a moot point.

That was just the first site that popped up when I googled self etching primer that Driver said didnt exist.

Yes my Mercedes, the Ferrari kit, and all my cars have laquer primer and were driven and sat out all winter and summer for over 15 years. I will give you that most cars ive completely refinished in laquer (all the Ferrari work, and older Corvettes) dont sit out in the weather all year but still look fine after 25 years. But I can find parts on 50s cars in junkyards here that have been and will polish right up if theyre not otherwise damaged. You dont have to sand off old laquer to put on a new paint job unless its been painted many times already or it has some other issue. Just taking it off because its laquer is being brainless. ANY paint will go over laquer anytime. Not completely true with any other type paint. Some will craze or wrinkle if you paint over it, even years later. I just had that happen to a new part a few weeks ago on a Mercedes. I painted it basecoat/clearcoat over the factory preprimered part per Mercedes manual. I scraped it putting it on and had to repaint a few days later. It wrinkled up the paint I already did like stripper, so had to peel it all off back down to the still good primer to repaint it again. Would never happen with laquer.

Even saying your right and it would hold up better than laquer (which Ive never said...only it was a more reasonable price alternative), i always said laquer requires some care that basecoat/clearcoat dont need. I never said laquer was better, only equal if taken care of. How many people on here really believe there going to keep the same car with the same paint for 25 years. Some cars Ive had I changed paint jobs every couple of years for the show circuit. Longest Ive owned any car was the mercedes for like 11 years. People just get tired of same old. Some of my friends and customers keep cars for 30 years if not forever. Id be too bored with it myself. I wonder how many here actually believe there going to keep their Fiero for life.

I've had 3 of my cars for 31-38 years ! the 3 fieros only 6.

There are some Maccos that do pretty good work. Just check that particuliar shop's reputation, & ask to see several finished paintjobs. Make sure to tell them you want base/clear, & enough clear to sand & buff it. If it were my car, I'd also make sure they sealed it with epoxy primer before painting. Sorry, but I REALLY want a paintjob that I've spent soooooooo much time on the prep to LAST.
Annie (the yellow baja bug - full name Baja-Barann) was painted over 30 years ago, using laquer primer, laquer paint, & cleared with acilyc enamel with a hardner. (they didn't have epoxy primer back then). Pretty much looks like crap now. I'd hate to think what it would look like if it had laquer clear. Pic of Annie is here: http://angelonearth.net/photo.html I've had her for about 36 years...
Roger's right: most folks don't keep their driver for more than a few years at most. That's why repair shops get away with using the cheapest materials possible, & cut all kinds of corners on the prep (scuff & douche). Most don't last for 6 months.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Since I gave up hope I feel much better.

I have two part urethane high fill primer in the garage on the paint shelf. It says on the label that it can be sanded within 30 minutes of application. Have used it this way with no problems at all. I've also had good luck with Dupont single stage Centari enamel. As long as you add hardner to it, it CAN be wet sanded in a few days. I've done it many times. As for basecoat/clearcoat I'll leave that to the expert painters to apply.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: I have two part urethane high fill primer in the garage on the paint shelf. It says on the label that it can be sanded within 30 minutes of application. Have used it this way with no problems at all. I've also had good luck with Dupont single stage Centari enamel. As long as you add hardner to it, it CAN be wet sanded in a few days. I've done it many times. As for basecoat/clearcoat I'll leave that to the expert painters to apply.

I use the high-build in areas that have been worked & need to be blocked out. (Over the first coat of epoxy, & seal it woth epoxy before painting.) I always give it at least overnight to dry, though. I've found that any time you rush anything with body & paint it will cause future problems. Yeah, it takes me longer to paint a car than most body shops.
You should try base/clear next time you paint something Dennis. It's a lot eaiser to shoot, sand & buff. Plus you get the benefit of UV protection from the clear (helps prevent fade).
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

To resist the influence of others, knowledge of one's self is most important.

Well, you dont use it on airplanes (again) because 1) it adds too much weight, 2) you never put anything on an aircraft skin you have to sand. Any idea how much time it would take to hand sand an airplane.....? As for using laquer primer on aluminum. The first business I worked for learning paint and body was a truck shop. We painted new and used semi tractors and American LeFrance fire engines. Fire engines generally go their entire life on their original paint job. The bare aluminum got a coat of yellow zinc chromate, primered with red oxide laquer primer and either Imron or Acrylic Enamel with stripping done in laquer. All the two tone graphics were shot on the primer first, masked off and the remainder shot in the acrylic enamel. Thats the same process every vehicle there was done with no exception. I worked there for 5 years, before I moved to painting planes at Downtown Airpark, Okla.

Anyone can use anything they want, there are just to many falicies here about primer and laquer to let go. I just say, its worked for me in the past, works for me presently, and some people (like Ferrari factory) still apparently also recommend my way. Hardened primer on anything has never given me anything but grief. By the way I use SW Ultra Fill or Evercoat (suppliers of factory products for finishing plastic and fiberglass boats hulls) . I should think what works for a boat hull would be fine for a similar material on a car (Fiero). Their submerged in water most of their life and Id consider that, especially salt water, a pretty harsh environment.

add: forgot to add this tidbit... the F4s I flew in VN were all painted camoflage with laquer. Of course there, longevity wasnt an issue....

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 06-11-2009).]