The question comes up often so I thought that I'd share what my 3800SC swap cost. My engine and trans is very low mile (near new) and an auto swap always costs more, and you can save a few bucks by fabricating mounts but when all is said and done these costs should be in the ballpark. I know Darkhorizon always claims that a 3800SC swap can be done for $1000 and you can find high mileage engines for that, but even so add up the parts cost and it becomes failr expensive.


2006 3800SC series III engine w 4T65eHD 60 miles on OD , harnmess but no PCM.
$2750.00 shipped Purchased in 2007 from Schramm Auto in MI. (these guys have many near new engines)
Custom axles $200.00 ( forget the formulas that you read about here, we've tried making them and the fit is terrible)
MSD Wires $75.00 ( you can't use the GTP wires as the coil pack need relocation)
Braided SS Fuel lines & Fittings 175.00 ( complete SS from rail to tank)
Fuel Pressure P Reg 48.00 ( added because engine was a series III)
LS1 SLP 85MM MAF $195.00 Flow improvement
N* Throttle body $75.00 Improvement
N* TB adapter 75.00 Needed to adapt N8 TB)
New belts $52.00
Water hoses (3) 68.00
A/C hose and adapter hdwre $155.00
Refrig pressure sensor $48.00
Boost and A/F gauges & Cups $135.00
Fuel Pressure gauge & Cup $110.00
Shifter reversal mechanism (WCF) $125.00 ( makes task of adapting Fiero mechanism to 4T65eHD shift lever) Works great!
Idler pulleys $35.00 ( when you low mount alternator they are required)
Motor Mounts (WCF) $275.00
Alternator (99 Astro w 4.3l type) 66.00 ( used a remanufactured one-great choice for low mounting)
custom CAI system $200.00 ( could be done cheaper but mine is a ram air type to the side scoop.)
( silicone couplings, 3 1/2" aluminum tube, K&N A/F)
Synthetic oil and filer $35.00 ( costs more but worth it)
Transmisson fluid fill $50.00 ( uses Dextron 6 $5 qt)
Transmission hoses and adapters $15..00
Throttle bracket, dog bone bracket,
Battery relocation and cables $70.00 ( battery now in truck right corner)
Cradle Bushings $55.00 ( recommended)
Primer/Paint for cradle $20.00
3.4" pulley $65.00 ( add only if you are a horsepower junkie and you'll need a special tool)
Injector connectors for harness $38.00
02 sensor $65.00
Speedometer calibration circuit parts 5.00
PCM $100.00
PCM Mounting tray $25.00 ( a GM OEM part) holds that PCM in place nicely)
Oil pressure sensor & Connector $78.00 ( use the 88 Fiero sensor as it fits, the old can type does not)
ETS (Engine temperature sensor) $35.00 ( need the 3 pin sensor that has the internal temp gauge sensor)
ETS Connector $18.00 ( you'll need the conector too)
OBD2 port connector $23.00 ( the harness doesn't seem to come with one)
Walbro HCHP fuel pump $100.00 ( these engines need lots of fuel at WOT)
New rear bearing hubs $160.00
R-123a refrigerent $22.00
Accumulator $35.00
Spark Plugs -Autolite 104's $12.00 ( need cooler plugs with 3.4" pulley)
Mandrel Bends for Exhaust (3" & 2 1/2") $112.00 ( used mild stell and painted w silicone paint)
Manifold exhaust connecting flange $22.00
Afterburner Muffler $95.00
Heddman Hot Tips (ex tips) $165.00
HP VCM Suite tuning software $499.00 ( horsepower is spark and fuel and if you make a change you'll need to scan and tune)
Grease, miscellaneous Hardware $20.00
fasteners, nuts, bolts, and it goes on.and on.

We have already spent over $5,500 in parts alone. Anyone care to add everything up? Yes we could have saved a few bucks by welding mounts and trying to figure out the shift reverse mechanism bu at best this would have saved about $300.00. and of course new hubs aren't a must but who wants old bearing hubs on a new more powerful engine? Then there is the 3.4" pulley so take $500 off and a true cost results. The series III swap can really add up when you convert it to a cable throttle body but the benefit is that you get the more efficient generation V supercharger which gives at least 20 more horsepower.
Bottom line is that swaps cost money and power costs money However, I would not hessitate to do it all over again as I wanted the power and performance that goes along with owning a fast Fiero. When you stomp down on that gas pedal , the power is instantaneous!
If you are looking for some real excitement, the supercharged 3800 may be for you.

------------------
87GT - 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

Thank you! This info was right on time.
+ for you.

Tim

I have a lot of respect for everything you've done, and all you know, but a much more appropriate title would be "How much I spent on MY 3.8SC swap" There is a LOT of items on that list that are purely optional, and quite a few that dont need to cost that much. Just saying, a newbie could walk into this thread and be completely turned off on the idea. I think I had about $2000 in my swap, final, out the door, passable for a stock Fiero engine, including $1200 for the drivetrain.

I think realistically I could knock a TON of money off that list.

For one, I got a 40k complete drivetrain, from axels to PCM, for like $1200

The axels can be easily assembled from J body axels for $100, and if you mount the tranny square in the engine bay, they fit perfect.

The AC hoses from an 88 4 cyl will bolt right to the Fiero and the L67

If you flip the fuel rail and snag the fittings of the Fiero engine, you can hook the fuel rail right to the stock fuel lines, looks fine.

I used stock L67 wires with my coil pack relocation

I think you paid a little too much for belts and hoses

I made my own shifter mechanism by welding the shift cable holder to the tranny mount and welding a "C" shaped selector lever $0

The PCM should come with the donor setup, and all the sensors allready on the engine can be used without problem

The rear hub replacement, good idea, yes, in any way required, no.

You could use the Fiero tips

There is no need to buy your own tuning software

Anyone with decent fab skills can mount the engine, adapt the shifter, and make an exhaust (with either a friendly shop, or a couple of U/J bends from jegs. Having done it the hard way, I would reccomend the low mount alternator bracket, though it can be done yourself.

Drivetrain
$2750.00 2006 3800SC series III engine w 4T65eHD 60 miles on OD , harnmess but no PCM.
Now thats not a bad price for the given engine, but add 20k and you can cut the cost in half, and it goes down from there. I dont know if I would take a 100k for $1000, but I got mine 40k for $1200
So we'll just leave that as a unknown variable.

Neccessary parts
$52.00 New belts (I'll let you splurge here)
$30 I'll give you that you might need to buy 88 AC hoses
$125.00 Shifter reversal mechanism (WCF) I'll give you that maybe our swapper cant fab or weld
$275.00 Motor Mounts (WCF) same as above
$35.00 Idler pulleys ( when you low mount alternator they are required)
$66.00 Alternator (99 Astro w 4.3l type) mine came with an alternator that worked, but okay
$35.00 Synthetic oil and filer ( costs more but worth it)
$50.00 Transmisson fluid fill ( uses Dextron 6 $5 qt)
$15.00Transmission hoses and adapters
$70.00 Throttle bracket, dog bone bracket, Battery relocation and cables My throttle cable slipped right into the engine, and the battery works in stock location (75 series only, not 78) but I'll give it to you
$20.00 Primer/Paint for cradle
$100.00 Walbro HCHP fuel pump - definitely a good idea
$22.00 R-123a refrigerent
$35.00 Accumulator
$12.00 Spark Plugs -Autolite 104's
$112.00 Mandrel Bends for Exhaust (3" & 2 1/2") (Again assuming no fab skills, I think I spent $40 for 2x3" U bends)
$22.00 Manifold exhaust connecting flange (though most engines will come with a flange)
$95.00 Afterburner Muffler (Though I got a great flowmaster for $20 less)
$20.00 Grease, miscellaneous Hardware
Total Parts - $1191 + drivetrain

Upgrade \Unrequired Parts
$175 Braided SS Fuel lines & Fittings
$48 Fuel Pressure P Reg
$195 LS1 SLP 85MM MAF $195.00 Flow improvement
$75 N* Throttle body $75.00 Improvement
$75 N* TB adapter 75.00 Needed to adapt N8 TB)
$155.00 A/C hose and adapter hdwre
$135 Boost and A/F gauges & Cups $135.00
$110 Fuel Pressure gauge & Cup $110.00
$200.00 custom CAI system -
$55.00 Cradle Bushings
$65.00 3.4" pulley
The next 5 parts should come with any engine, especially at $2000+
$100.00PCM
$78.00 Oil pressure sensor & Connector( use the 88 Fiero sensor as it fits, the old can type does not)
$35.00 ETS (Engine temperature sensor) ( need the 3 pin sensor that has the internal temp gauge sensor)
$18.00 ETS Connector ( you'll need the conector too)
$65.00 02 sensor (not to mention I paid less for a new one from a GM dealership)

$25.00 PCM Mounting tray
$160.00 New rear bearing hubs
$165.00 Heddman Hot Tips (ex tips)
$499.00 HP VCM Suite tuning software
Total Options - $2433

Over Paid (but required) Parts
$75.00 MSD Wires
$ -30 Stock wires, or other wires would work just as well
$200 Custom Axels
$-100 excellent axles can be made in a matter of a couple of hours
$68 Water hoses (3) 68.00
$-23 I forget the exact cost of my hoses, but they wernt more than $12 each, I'll give you $45
$48 Refrig pressure sensor $48.00
$-25 Can get for ~20 at a parts store
$23.00 OBD2 port connector
-$18 Most people just snag one from a junkyard for free, but maybe you'd have to give 5$ for it.
Additional Parts true cost $218

So, by your swap, assuming no fabrication skills, I think a more realistic estamation of the total required cost is $1409 plus drivetrain costs.

[This message has been edited by 86GT3.4DOHC (edited 07-15-2008).]

I am going to say that I have about $5500 in my swap total including the car and everything on it. I would say in just the swap itself with all the MODs I have about $3500 or so give or take a little. While others spend alot more on a swap its becuase dont bargain shop for there parts and wait for good deals. This is what I did and why I dont have that much in my swap at all. I would say the cheapest you could get away with a 3800SC swap these days would be $2500 and thats doing most the work yourself.

I have about 3500$ plus or minus a hundred bucks maybe. That's with someone else doing the labour for me... not that expensive overall.

One thing I'm curious about is the time factor. How long did it take to find those deals so the swap itself was as cheap as it was done? An unsuspecting reader could see "I did mine for $cheap" in one place, then read "My swap only took a few days" somewhere else, then they put together in their head "I can do this swap in a few days for $cheap".

I still stand behind mine costing a bit less than $1000... And I included frilly things like, the whole car, lowering ball joints, and rims.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I still stand behind mine costing a bit less than $1000... And I included frilly things like, the whole car, lowering ball joints, and rims.

Work at a dealer or something? Whats your hook up for cheap stuff?

quote Originally posted by 2.5: Work at a dealer or something? Whats your hook up for cheap stuff?

Junkyard.... I got a load of spare parts buying and selling motors out of my local junkyard... I made profits on those deals, along with got parts for my car out of the deal.

If I added up all of the money I made off of parting out cars and motors, I would be nearly negative (rough guesses put me around $100-200 total fiero cost after parts profit).

quote Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC: I have a lot of respect for everything you've done, and all you know, but a much more appropriate title would be "How much I spent on MY 3.8SC swap" There is a LOT of items on that list that are purely optional, and quite a few that dont need to cost that much. Just saying, a newbie could walk into this thread and be completely turned off on the idea. I think I had about $2000 in my swap, final, out the door, passable for a stock Fiero engine, including $1200 for the drivetrain. I think realistically I could knock a TON of money off that list. For one, I got a 40k complete drivetrain, from axels to PCM, for like $1200 So, by your swap, assuming no fabrication skills, I think a more realistic estamation of the total required cost is $1409 plus drivetrain costs.

Here is my reply:

"How much I spent on MY 3.8SC swap" -Read my post again

The axels can be easily assembled from J body axels for $100, and if you mount the tranny square in the engine bay, they fit perfect. Maybe yes but maybe no. All mounting systems place the engine is a slightly different location.

The AC hoses from an 88 4 cyl will bolt right to the Fiero and the L67 Not the series II 7 CVC compressor- no way!

If you flip the fuel rail and snag the fittings of the Fiero engine, you can hook the fuel rail right to the stock fuel lines, looks fine. but fuel inector hose, rail to tak is not cheap!

I used stock L67 wires with my coil pack relocation- But does it look ok?

I think you paid a little too much for belts and hoses- See my comments below

I made my own shifter mechanism by welding the shift cable holder to the tranny mount and welding a "C" shaped selector lever $0
This places the plastic rod end very close to the exhaust. You know that's not going to last!

The PCM should come with the donor setup, and all the sensors allready on the engine can be used without problem. Actually I did get the series II PCM but wanted to stay awaty from ETC so we swapped in a 2003 GTP PCM.

The rear hub replacement, good idea, yes, in any way required, no. - Right but just say your prayers when you hit the 1/4 mile traps at 100 MPH on old high mileage hubs

You could use the Fiero tips- 2" is a bit restrictive but they might work in pairs butmost are really old and in bad shape

There is no need to buy your own tuning software- > so you like installing and racing without any tuning? I pity your engine and the reliability that you'll get from it.
Anyone with decent fab skills can mount the engine, adapt the shifter, and make an exhaust (with either a friendly shop, or a couple of U/J bends from jegs. Having done it the hard way, I would reccomend the low mount alternator bracket, though it can be done yourself.

Drivetrain
$2750.00 2006 3800SC series III engine w 4T65eHD 60 miles on OD , harnmess but no PCM.
Now thats not a bad price for the given engine, but add 20k and you can cut the cost in half, and it goes down from there. I dont know if I would take a 100k for $1000, but I got mine 40k for $1200
So we'll just leave that as a unknown variable.

Neccessary parts
$52.00 New belts (I'll let you splurge here) - Two new belts. One for the supercharger (3.4" pulley) and the other to accomodate the low mount alternator.
W/O 3.4" pulley deduct about $25.00 about $65.00 actually
$30 I'll give you that you might need to buy 88 AC hoses . no Fiero hoses fit the 7 CVC comprressor used on the series III engines
$125.00 Shifter reversal mechanism (WCF) I'll give you that maybe our swapper can't fab or weld - yes this could be fabricated but time is money
$275.00 Motor Mounts (WCF) same as above
$35.00 Idler pulleys ( when you low mount alternator they are required)
$66.00 Alternator (99 Astro w 4.3l type) mine came with an alternator that worked, but okay Easier to mount the Astro alternator but the GTP alt can be used.
$35.00 Synthetic oil and filer ( costs more but worth it)
$50.00 Transmisson fluid fill ( uses Dextron 6 $5 qt)
$15.00Transmission hoses and adapters
$70.00 Throttle bracket, dog bone bracket, Battery relocation and cables My throttle cable slipped right into the engine, and the battery works in stock location (75 series only, not 78) but I'll give it to you - Used N* TB with spacer. Yes std swap could reuse GTP bracket but you still need all the ther items.
$20.00 Primer/Paint for cradle
$100.00 Walbro HCHP fuel pump - definitely a good idea
$22.00 R-123a refrigerent
$35.00 Accumulator
$12.00 Spark Plugs -Autolite 104's pr std GTP if no pulley upgrade.
$112.00 Mandrel Bends for Exhaust (3" & 2 1/2") (Again assuming no fab skills, I think I spent $40 for 2x3" U bends)- NO that's with fab skills I did all the welding and the exhaust needed four mandrel bends. Can't see how any kind of exhaust can be made with only two bends.
$22.00 Manifold exhaust connecting flange (though most engines will come with a flange)
$95.00 Afterburner Muffler (Though I got a great flowmaster for $20 less)
$20.00 Grease, miscellaneous Hardware
Total Parts - $1191 + drivetrain

Upgrade \Unrequired Parts
$175 Braided SS Fuel lines & Fittings ( regular fuel line is nearly as expensive- don't forget this is a tank to rail run of lines)
$48 Fuel Pressure P Reg - Ihad to add this as the seires III rail didn't have one
$195 LS1 SLP 85MM MAF $195.00 Flow improvement ( yes these are upgrade parts but needed on a series III w cable control))
$75 N* Throttle body $75.00 Improvement -correct but again cable TB on a series III neds one)
$75 N* TB adapter 75.00 Needed to adapt N8 TB)
$155.00 A/C hose and adapter hdwre ( again no Fiero hose is a direct fit on a later 3800SC engine w the 7 CVC compressor.)
$135 Boost and A/F gauges & Cups $135.00 - these are important gauges IF you want your engine to stay together
$110 Fuel Pressure gauge & Cup $110.00 same as above- WOT + low fuel presure = engine toasted.
$200.00 custom CAI system - You can make a cheap on for around $50.00
$55.00 Cradle Bushings - Is it really a good idea to reuse 25 yr old rubber bushings????
$65.00 3.4" pulley - un upgrade part)
The next 5 parts should come with any engine, especially at $2000+ They dont supply them on new engines so this is an opinion.
$100.00PCM
$78.00 Oil pressure sensor & Connector( use the 88 Fiero sensor as it fits, the old can type does not) You want to read oil pressure right?
$35.00 ETS (Engine temperature sensor) ( need the 3 pin sensor that has the internal temp gauge sensor) some 3800SC engines have them and some don't. My engine did not and I like seeing thre engine temps
$18.00 ETS Connector ( you'll need the conector too) not all GTP harnesses have the 3 pin ETS
$65.00 02 sensor (not to mention I paid less for a new one from a GM dealership) How much less $10 maybe.

$25.00 PCM Mounting tray- how do you hold the PCM in place. Isn't a $25 tray that thye PCM drops into nice
$160.00 New rear bearing hubs - did you do your 3800SC swap using old high mileage bearing hubs. If so say your prayers before going down the 1/4 mile
$165.00 Heddman Hot Tips (ex tips) A number of choices are available but the dual tips look better than a stright pipe
$499.00 HP VCM Suite tuning software - not needed?? You don't believe in tuning your 3800SC swap? Then how do you optimize power and eliminate KR's???
Total Options - $2433

Over Paid (but required) Parts
$75.00 MSD Wires
$ -30 Stock wires, or other wires would work just as well- NO coil pack needs relocation. Stock wires will not fit
$200 Custom Axels- you can try the many formulas presented on this forum but they don't work. Proper fit is to have the tripod in the erxact center of the tripot at road height. Any les of a fit is unacceptable to me. As they say you can do it the cheap way or the right way
$-100 excellent axles can be made in a matter of a couple of hours
$68 Water hoses (3) 68.00 you can buy two coolant to pipe hoses and at least one length of 5/8" heater hose for less. If so give us the numbers.
$-23 I forget the exact cost of my hoses, but they wernt more than $12 each, I'll give you $45
$48 Refrig pressure sensor $48.00 - required for PCM control of the A/C system. Won't work without one.
$-25 Can get for ~20 at a parts store- I checked all around. What parts store has them for $25.00 Please show us online where I can buy a trinary switch for $20.00 .
$23.00 OBD2 port connector -
-$18 Most people just snag one from a junkyard for free, but maybe you'd have to give 5$ for it. So we should spend $20 in gas to buy a $5.00 junkyard part? Perhapos true if you lived next to a junkyard.
Additional Parts true cost $218

Folks you can believe the guys that say that 3800SC swaps are far cheaper than mine was and perhaps they were but if you want to end up with a solid low miles properly installed and tuned engine you will see that $5,000 in parts is not unreasonable and for the record,....... we did much of the welding and fabrication here in my garage including the exhaust system , dog bone mount. throttle cable bracket, alternator low mount brackets, rt idler pulley bracket custom CAI system, kill switch bracket, battery support, coil pack mounting bracket, and fuze box mounts ( my unique install uses the GTP power center that contains the A/C and fuel pump relays and other supply feeds)
You might get lucky and do a 3800Sc install for less so expect the least while planning for the most!


------------------
87GT - 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 07-15-2008).]

The first thing that caught my eye in your above post - (required) MSD wires - $75

YEAH RIGHT. This list is ridiculous. If you spent $5000 on your swap, you need to think about wasting your money on a new hobby people think monetarily of, such as an F355, Corvette, **list goes on**.

I've seen Fiero's equipped with L67's in the mall for $5000 before.

quote Originally posted by Emc209i: The first thing that caught my eye in your above post - (required) MSD wires - $75 YEAH RIGHT. This list is ridiculous. If you spent $5000 on your swap, you need to think about wasting your money on a new hobby people think monetarily of, such as an F355, Corvette, **list goes on**. I've seen Fiero's equipped with L67's in the mall for $5000 before.

There are those that speak with substance and those that speak without any factual information. There are some of us that care about quality, attention to detail, technology, performance, appearance, fit and reliability and those that don't. If you do a QUALITY engine swap it WILL cost money.
That is because quality engines are usually not cheap.
Judging from your criticism you are obviously an expert in the field of swaps, engines and tuning. We would appreciate a few tips on how the job should be done.

------------------
87GT - 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

Theres too much there, and its too crammed up in your response to read through the whole thing, but.

My shifter cable is nowhere near the exhaust.
The 88 AC hoses bolted right to my 02 L67 compressor
Hub bearings dont explode and send the wheel flying when they go out
You dont need to tune the engine when you do a stock swap, not everyone mods the crap out of the engine. Plus, you could just have the ECM tuned for $100 or less
Axels, its not asking too much to mount the tranny square, and it doesnt actually have to be perfectly centered, and there isnt that much room to mount it too far either way

There is no need to replace the entire fuel system with hose, its better off with the steel lines anyway
My wires look fine to me, but its not a show car, but like I said, I could pass it off as stock if I wanted. MSD wires are by no means absolutely required
Even if you had to replace all those sensors, I think you paid way over list price at a dealership.
Tips, 2"x2 = 4", if you're running 3" exhaust, thats the right size. Actually I had to reduce my tail pipes to 2.25" each, it sounded like crap with anything bigger.

Im not saying you did anything wrong, but you are by no means represnting the "required" cost to swap a 3.8SC. You have a ton of things you dont even argue that are extras. Just like Dark's claim of $1000 is not realistic either. Yes, thats what he was out of pocket, but as he said, he traded and sold and whatnot. You can say thats what you spent all you want, but its not accurate to say that is what it costs to do a swap

Realistic cost you are looking at $400-$1500 + drivetrain depending on how much you do yourself. You can spend about as much as you could possibly imagine if you tried, Im sure I could come up with a $30,000 L67 swap if I tried, but that wouldnt mean that is what it cost to do a swap

[This message has been edited by 86GT3.4DOHC (edited 07-15-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: There are those that speak with substance and those that speak without any factual information. There are some of us that care about quality, attention to detail, technology, performance, appearance, fit and reliability and those that don't. If you do a QUALITY engine swap it WILL cost money. That is because quality engines are usually not cheap. Judging from your criticism you are obviously an expert in the field of swaps, engines and tuning. We would appreciate a few tips on how the job should be done.

There is a link to my build thread below my signature. To date, I've never seen a picture or read positive reviews about your work. That being said I can only look at your list subjectively; but as so, it seems inflated to the highest degree. I'm not a stranger to people who think doing something the "right" way includes spending countless thousands of dollars, I live with one. I know people here who have put their cars together at half of your estimate. Jncomutt is perfect point and place- He's into the 12's, and he drives his car to and from New England from here (about 3 times a year). I've never seen the car have a problem.

So what is it that makes you abstract? I'd question your ideals about frugality and creativity.


------------------

_______________1988 Pontiac Fiero: Formula/GT - 3.4 DOHC - 5 Speed_______________

[This message has been edited by Emc209i (edited 07-15-2008).]

i was wrong in my thoughts :P

[This message has been edited by Billybo455 (edited 07-15-2008).]

I would have to agree, there is a large population that seem to think, no matter what, the more money you spend the better something is.

As for Billybo455, again, every single item you have listed is an upgrade. Nothing wrong with that, but its very innaccurate to say that is what it costs to do a swap. Some people are happy just to have the power, reliabilitlly and MPG that comes with a stock swap, and the cost therein.

Ive never had a lick of problem with my car, other than the Map sensor popped out of the vaccum line, that is only because I neglected to put the mounting screws back in after I had removed it to test another car. It runs 13.6's and gets 32MPG, and cost about $2k including the engine.

I have literally had a 3.4" pulley rolling around in the trunk since I started driving the car, I just dont see the need to add more power.

that's true, but i would have still had to pay for two engines and trannys. but i bet you like the sound of the dohc better if you got a good motor and trans on the first attempt i think a decent swap would be around 2500-3000 depending on how anal you are.

Mine could have came in around $2500 if half my first motor didnt get thrown out durring my winter break. Thats also not including the performance stuff, but that does include the re-gasket of the second motor.

quote To date, I've never seen a picture or read positive reviews about your work. That being said I can only look at your list subjectively; but as so, it seems inflated to the highest degree

My swap work but on the 3.4L turbo and on the 3800SC has been posted here on this forum many times but if you are unfamiliar with it take a peak.













I am well known in Fiero circles and my swaps are real!!!! ... and so were the prices that I posted for everything. Don't have a website yet of the build but hope to in the near future.
Sure I could have skimped and saved a few hundred bucks but I'm fussy and wanted the best swap that I could build. For instance take a look at the axles that we used. Pretty big axle stock wouldn't you say? ....and they fit with precision. Point is quality costs money my friend.
You get what you pay for

------------------
87GT - 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

Not to hijack the thread but there are less expensive routes. Ex. N/A instead of S/C

I bought an 87 Coupe for less than a grand w/3800 Series 1 V6, 4t60 & Grand Am brake conversions. 70K on engine, 74 k on car.

More details at https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/052684.html.

I probably spent another grand fixing it up. I'm very pleased w/ the results.

the cheapest 3800n/a I ever did was about 300 this was of course bare bones just the swap stock plugs wires stock everything

the cost for pretty much everything in the swap is variable.. we're talking used cars/engines... even new parts can be found for different prices depending on where you go...

I think arguing the cost is pointless.. because everyone's degree of experience/preference is different.

basically.. whatever the person doing the swap is willing to pay.. is what the swap is going to cost.

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: I am well known in Fiero circles and my swaps are real!!!! ... and so were the prices that I posted for everything. Don't have a website yet of the build but hope to in the near future. Sure I could have skimped and saved a few hundred bucks but I'm fussy and wanted the best swap that I could build. For instance take a look at the axles that we used. Pretty big axle stock wouldn't you say?

I tried doing a small amount of research on you, but only found threads with dead links and abrupt endings.

I don't doubt that your prices were real, rather the need to purchase items at said price. The axles are the only thing I see in any of those pictures that is different from any other typical $2500-3000 swap.Furthermore I find them completely unnecessary and not at all worth a $2500 premium at which you price your build at. Also, normal axles fit with precision...

quote Point is quality costs money my friend. You get what you pay for

Wrong! You get what you consciously invest in. The difference being you make the rational choice about which product's longevity will serve your purpose more. I could sell you pennies for $6 dollars apiece, that doesn't mean they're worth more than quarters. "You get what you pay for" is a cop out for people with more money than they know what to do with (also runs in my family), and salesman wearing stolen suites.

You spent to much, and you're the only person that disagrees. That's fine. I'm sure the piece of mind you get from thinking your "ship is unsinkable" is worth $2500.


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_______________1988 Pontiac Fiero: Formula/GT - 3.4 DOHC - 5 Speed_______________

[This message has been edited by Emc209i (edited 07-15-2008).]

quote Wrong! You get what you consciously invest in. The difference being you make the rational choice about which product's longevity will serve your purpose more. I could sell you pennies for $6 dollars apiece, that doesn't mean they're worth more than quarters. "You get what you pay for" is a cop out for people with more money than they know what to do with (also runs in my family), and salesman wearing stolen suites.

I agree with this so much! If anything money buys time, but i know it does not buy quality. I made things exponentially cheaper waiting around for nice deals on stuff, I didnt just search till I found something, then bought it the second I found it.

quote 97 L67 longblock $500 98 4t65e-hd trans $250 98 wiring harness $100 Various engine parts $60 86SE parts car $Free 88 coupe with 100k miles $150 new brake pads for 88 $free Spare 88GT cradle /w swaybar $free Walbro fuel pump $90 Gaskets for motor $70 Rubber for mounts $22 Junkyard Axel parts $10 Used SC belt $free ACC belt $16 PS coolant hose $12 Hospital bill for broken knuckles $Millions Downpipe $44 Muffler and some tailpipe material $78

That is my build cost sheet... I really can chunk out most all of the motor costs, because I ended up re-arranging my money in that area. I didnt add in fluids because I filled it with water first, and used some oil I had laying around.

I think you guys are debating two very different things here. You are comparing a build with practically brand new engine, transmission and most of the other parts to junk yard builds that you pray everything works and keeps working for the first 100 miles. When Dennis was done with his build, he had pretty much a brand new power train. The builds you are comparing to his all have 70k+ and are more likely to be over 100k miles on them. Also, not everyone is a welder nor can everyone do their own wiring.

I think the most fair way to state the cost would be $2000-7000 depending on your fabrication and electrical skills, how much you pay someone else to do the work, the quality of the parts you use, and how thrifty you are with what you buy. If you can do it for less than $2000, then you are a skinflint, good fabricator and got really lucky with some good deals. I don't think the "average" PFF member can do this build for less than $1000. It is misleading to say that anyone can do it for that price.

EMC - why the hate? for what he did i think the cost is about right.

Folks:

I think Dennis' post is of great value to all of us.

There are many great build threads here, but few with costs. I am on my second build with WCF and I found some interesting info and some things to look into.

The other thing is that when you see the parts and costs together, it gives you a point of reference as to what you will be getting into for a first-class build and the other folks costs give you the cost of a functional transplant.

Makes me wonder who had the most fun during their projects and the greatest sense of accomplishment after their project was completed.

Regards,

David

quote Originally posted by Emc209i: You should have titled the thread "What a 3800SC swap done by someone with excessive standards costs". Your build does not encompass the norm. The addition cost did not buy you better parts per se, rather parts that appealed to your meticulous nature. You can buy a Rolex watch or a Casio watch. Both serve a purpose, but one costs $1000 more. I say good for you, but don't start threads about Rolex's being the only watch that ticks. Now Emc leaves....

I agree with almost everything you said on this thread except this part Rolexs don't tick its what makes them Rolexs.

One thing to bare in mind is that there are 2 distinctly different camps, regardless of what engine your swapping in...

# 1 - those of which that just want to motor in and want to go fast, regardless of aesthetics and do not anticipate a judges discretion at a car show.

#2 - quite the opposite, those who will pay attention to detail ( Cali kid, Skitime, Chris West, Chris Sideris, Keith Huff, John Parenti, etc... ) regardless of the money, time, headache factor. These are the cars that tend to set the bar and give rise to those in camp # 1 who say ( often proove ) that they can do something faster, cheaper, etc...

Could I do a 3800 install for $1,000.00? Yeah - would I be proud to lift the hood and show what that $1,000.00 got me? Hell no

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Recanizin' Flat-Buns Since 2001

Eric Nelson
Internet Sales Manager
Power Ford Valencia
nelsone@autonation.com

quote Originally posted by Ace McCloud: I agree with almost everything you said on this thread except this part Rolexs don't tick its what makes them Rolexs.

You are right! I learned something, thanks for sharing.

I do not believe that my swap is all that extravagant for what it is. There is also another factor that is not being discussed- the NHRA rule book. For instance with a supercharged engine stainless braided steel lines are a must, so is a power disconnect switch. I guess we can divide the engine swap group into those that just want a 3800SC and wish to have the cheapest setup, then we have the show car guys where appearance is everything, next we have the high quality swap guys like myself that want a clean premium modified engine using all new parts ( "more go than show") and last we have the guy that wants to do some of the above and also be NHRA legal. I still stand by my previous comment that the best always costs more... for instance Gatrback Belts , SS braided fuel lines, high strength custom axles, a new engine, a generation V supercharger, PRJ fuel rails, SLP 85MM MAF sensor etc etc.. They cost more for a reason and you won't get race track level reliability and performance for less.
BTW, EMC, your posts seem to have a notably hostile tone. Is there a reason for this? This post was just done to be helpful. Perhaps you are just having a bad day?

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87GT - 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

The prices for the 3800sc's ae only going to go up. Right now the bigger yards are crushing those cars and selling them for scrap as the price of scrap is going up fast. I watched a truckload of GTP's and other GM cars that has the 3800/3800sc in them that were smashed flat truck on down 696 last week. Probably had 4 3800sc's and a many 3800's on it all going to a smelter.

It's like how hard the 95 3.4L pushrods are getting very hard to find, the 3800sc series II engines are disappearing. so the prices will go up.

Heck two of the local yards increased all their prices by 15% recently. The old guy told me he get's more money crushing the cars than selling the parts.

So, a 3800sc swap done 3 years ago for $1200.00 will cost a LOT more now, and next year even more.... I am betting that unless you had inside connections at a yard there is no way you can do that swap for the $1200-$1500 price anymore.

timgray does bring up another variable into the cost that I did not consider - AVAILABILITY

Dennis LaGrua also brings out valid points with the addition of groups using the cars for race only, which I did not consider

What diameter are those axels?

BTW, Id watch it, you're starting to sound rather elitist. Nothing wrong with wanting or building a nice car, but its starting to sound like you're saying anything less isnt worth doing. If everyone followed your line of thinking, we'd have a whole crapload of 2.8L fieros, with a few select running swapped show cars, basically youd be able to count the number of engine swapped Fieros on your hands.

Im more than happy with my swap, its no show car, it may or may not be NHRA legal, but I dont even know what you need that for, all I care is they let me run it at the local track, it looks professionally done, and its completely reliable, and as I like to say, it runs a 13.60 @ 32 MPG. Open the hood and you would think it was any other stock Fiero engine out there, for about $800 in swap costs + DT, im happy, and I think %95 of the people on here would be happy with that.

i agree with that. there are different classes of 3800sc swaps. show, go, and cheap.

An old axion comes to my mind. You can build a car to be:

A. Fast
B. Reliable
C. Cheap

Pick 2

quote Originally posted by Billybo455: i agree with that. there are different classes of 3800sc swaps. show, go, and cheap.

THATS IT - thats it right there, that is the perfect cloassification system

quote Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC: BTW, Id watch it, you're starting to sound rather elitist. Nothing wrong with wanting or building a nice car, but its starting to sound like you're saying anything less isnt worth doing.

Yep, that's Dennis. He is kind of like the rock of Gibraltar that way.