I own a 1981 Ferrari 308 that has been retrofitted with a Fiero 2.8 liter and 5 speed tranny. The entire rear subframe from the Fiero was used, including the engine cradle, transaxle, etc. At some point I will likely want to upgrade the engine to something more powerful. I don't want anything too radical, and I want something that's dependable and reasonably easy to service. I'd like some suggestions on what I could put in the car, given that it's basically a Fiero rear end. I know about V-8 Archie, but I'm sure other options have also been explored within the Fiero community. This isn't something I can do myself, so I'd also appreciate any suggestions on who I might hire to do this for me, and what it might cost. And in case this question comes up - yes, it is a real Ferrari, not a Mera or knock off 308 body. I look forward to any input. Thanks
[This message has been edited by TEW (edited 11-17-2006).]
Anything with webers looks nice for euro cars. Why not drop in the original engine and keep the value? I work on them and they are high maintenance and expensive to service. Pretty much, figure your budget and make whatever you want fit. Or take a chevy small block and make a custom intake manifold and valve covers to resemble the ferrari. Dave
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10:19 PM
Derek2M6 Member
Posts: 289 From: Guelph, Ontario, Canada Registered: May 2006
The guy who did this install got rid of all the fuel injection stuff from the 2.8 and used a 4 barrel Holley. The car has a slight hesitation whenever you step on the gas. It's like it pauses for a milisecond, and then takes off. A few weeks ago I thought the problem had cleared up, but it's back again. I did notice at that time that the engine idle was running faster. Any suggestions on what's causing this?
[This message has been edited by TEW (edited 11-18-2006).]
Anything with webers looks nice for euro cars. Why not drop in the original engine and keep the value? I work on them and they are high maintenance and expensive to service. Pretty much, figure your budget and make whatever you want fit. Or take a chevy small block and make a custom intake manifold and valve covers to resemble the ferrari. Dave
A lot of people say I shoudl put it back to original, but I bought this car specifically because I wanted a Ferrari with motor that's easier and less costly to maintain. As for the value, I'm not so sure the value is hurt that much.
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07:05 AM
topcat Member
Posts: 5486 From: Charleston SC Registered: Dec 2001
I would go with something that has a higher rev limit to give it more of an exotic sound. Having said that my pick would be either the Northstar or the 3.4 DOHC. The only issue is who could you pay for an install?
The SC3800II is a fun engine (I have one), and there are a few folks that can do one for you. FastFiero in Texas, and Darth Fiero comes to mind. Come to think of it, I believe Darth has done a few DOHC installs. He is in the forum, and you can PM or email him to see if he is available for an install.
All good stuff! Thanks! From what I've read thus far, the 3800SC seems to offer the best bang for the buck the LS1 also looks attractive. Any comments on how these two compare in terms or reliability, MPG, ease to service? Thanks again
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08:14 AM
Deabionni Member
Posts: 4086 From: Kalkaska, MI Registered: Mar 2004
I think I may know of your car. Was it purchased on ebay? If so, there was a thread on here about that car, when it was for sale on ebay. (The ebay link is in that thread).
Here's a few pics of the ebay car.
If that's the car you have, it's a great looking car.
In answer to your question, I would choose a DOHC (4.6L Northstar, 3.5L Shortstar, or the 3.4DOHC) engine. The Northstar with 300HP/300TQ would be more than enough engine to keep the Ferrari as quick as it looks.
A good alternative is the 3800SC, as it comes stock with 240HP/280TQ. It's a pushrod/supercharged V6, but installs much easier than the Northstar; and has a HUGE amount of aftermarket support, so it's not very hard or costly to extract more power from that motor.
[This message has been edited by Deabionni (edited 11-18-2006).]
The guy who did this install got rid of all the fuel injection stuff from the 2.8 and used a 4 barrel Holley. The car has a slight hesitation whenever you step on the gas. It's like it pauses for a milisecond, and then takes off. A few weeks ago I thought the problem had cleared up, but it's back again. I did notice at that time that the engine idle was running faster. Any suggestions on what's causing this?
Well you are in luck. I know exactly what is causing this. The accellerator pump on the Holley 8007 is too heavy for the engine's displacement. Holley does not make a shooter or cam that is correct for the engine. Your accellerator pump is delivering too much gas causing an initial stumble
Here is the fix.
If you still have the original shooter it is a 25. You maybe want to go to a 31. A 31 puts the shot at the front end. I am using the #25
Your accellerator pump cam, if original, is a white cam. You need to shorten up the cam stroke. You do this by getting an orange cam. You have to do this with the carb off the car. Otherwise it is a PITA. You install the orange cam without putting in the screw. You rotate the cam until the #1 bracket hole is exactly between the 2 cam holes. You mark it with a black marker, take the cam out, and drill a new hole between the old holes. You then install the cam and screw in the hold down screw into the new hole.
This shortens up your cam stroke to bring you down to about 12-13 cc's of gas. However, your cam lever is now out of adjustment. You have to tighten the cam lever adjustment nut&screw until the pump lever is just slightly loose.
Now you have a correct shot, but you are not done. The jetting may be too rich. And your secondaries on the jetting plate are definitely too rich. The stock plate is #56 and you need about a #51 or #52. You want about #51 stock primary jets.
Well you are in luck. I know exactly what is causing this. The accellerator pump on the Holley 8007 is too heavy for the engine's displacement. Holley does not make a shooter or cam that is correct for the engine. Your accellerator pump is delivering too much gas causing an initial stumble
Here is the fix.
If you still have the original shooter it is a 25. You maybe want to go to a 31. A 31 puts the shot at the front end. I am using the #25
Your accellerator pump cam, if original, is a white cam. You need to shorten up the cam stroke. You do this by getting an orange cam. You have to do this with the carb off the car. Otherwise it is a PITA. You install the orange cam without putting in the screw. You rotate the cam until the #1 bracket hole is exactly between the 2 cam holes. You mark it with a black marker, take the cam out, and drill a new hole between the old holes. You then install the cam and screw in the hold down screw into the new hole.
This shortens up your cam stroke to bring you down to about 12-13 cc's of gas. However, your cam lever is now out of adjustment. You have to tighten the cam lever adjustment nut&screw until the pump lever is just slightly loose.
Now you have a correct shot, but you are not done. The jetting may be too rich. And your secondaries on the jetting plate are definitely too rich. The stock plate is #56 and you need about a #51 or #52. You want about #51 stock primary jets.
There is alot more but this should cure it.
Man, I appreciate your help on this. Only problem is this is WAY out of my skill sets. I might be able to print out your instructions and find someone knowledable enough to do it, but I'd like to make it as easy as possibe. Is there an easier fix, like installing a different carburator?
I think I may know of your car. Was it purchased on ebay? If so, there was a thread on here about that car, when it was for sale on ebay. (The ebay link is in that thread).
Here's a few pics of the ebay car.
If that's the car you have, it's a great looking car.
In answer to your question, I would choose a DOHC (4.6L Northstar, 3.5L Shortstar, or the 3.4DOHC) engine. The Northstar with 300HP/300TQ would be more than enough engine to keep the Ferrari as quick as it looks.
A good alternative is the 3800SC, as it comes stock with 240HP/280TQ. It's a pushrod/supercharged V6, but installs much easier than the Northstar; and has a HUGE amount of aftermarket support, so it's not very hard or costly to extract more power from that motor.
Yep, that's my car. I didn't like the red wheel centers. Painted them a dark grey. Looks MUCH better I've been lurking around the Ferrari forums for information on various things I want to do . Of couse, I get some flack when the engine conversion comes up. The car's in pretty good shape. I've spent another 3k or so on front suspension, shocks and a few misc. things. I've had it since June and I dont' regret buying it for a second. As for any dimenished value, I don't think it's an issue. The bidders on Ebay had run the price up to almost $15k with 3-4 days left on the auction. When I saw it, the reserve had not been met and the Buy it Now option was $19995. It took me about a minute to decide to take it, and I think I got a good deal. I've owned several 308 replicas over the years, but driving those cars is kind of like wearing a fake Rolex if you know what I mean. This car offers the best of both worlds imo. Bear in mind the original V8 in these cars is pretty anemic by today's standards, but still expensive to maintain.
I have some better pictures if anyone's interested. How do I post a pic in this thread?
[This message has been edited by TEW (edited 11-18-2006).]
Man, I appreciate your help on this. Only problem is this is WAY out of my skill sets. I might be able to print out your instructions and find someone knowledable enough to do it, but I'd like to make it as easy as possibe. Is there an easier fix, like installing a different carburator?
In short no. You can get an adapter plate and install the Holley 350 cfm 2-barrel, but, you will end up with the same issue for a 2.8 engine. Both carbs have the same accellerator pump circuit.
This job is not impossible for you if you have a wrench set, a drill, and a slot screw driver.
The carb comes off easily. You just have to remember your hoses. You don't even need to undo the throttle cable. You get a piece of plywood and set it on the dogbone and thermostat housing and you move the carb over. You will need to unhook the gas line feed. Again, this is not hard once you are into it. It all goes back together easily.
You can do the cam change with the carb in, but, you need to be skinny and work overtop of the engine with a good strong light. You'll maybe want a magnet wand incase you drop a screw (been there)
I tried a #21 and a #18 shooter to try to cure it, but the car took off like a limousine, not a sports car. The only thing I can think of, which is not as good, is to really shorten up your accellerator pump lever stroke. But, you end up "loading" your accellerator pump diaphram and with the circuit open, your gas mileage will go down and you'll be rich.
You aren't far from the Holley head office. They are a big help. You probably have some local good 'ol boys with SBC's in their hotrods who know carbs real well and could do it for you. Take it out to a show 'n shine and talk up the carb guys. Of course, they don't have experience with this engine and will give you all sorts of their theories, but print out what I gave you and show it to them and they'll understand. Good luck in any case.
Arn
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11:27 AM
Scurvy Member
Posts: 865 From: Richmond, Va Registered: Nov 2005
I have some better pictures if anyone's interested. How do I post a pic in this thread?
I'm interested. To post pics, you can either use the "Pennocks Image Poster" at the bottom of every page, or you can use a site like www.photobucket.com to host your pics; and then link the pics to your thread.
I'll be gone until later tonight, but if you'd like; I could also post some pics for you. Just email them to deabionni@gmail.com and I'll be happy to post them when I get back home tonight.
Personally, My choice would be a 3.4DOHC, since you already have the 2.8l V6, and the 3.4DOHC is based off these V6's, a lot of the same hardware could be used. But since right now it is carbed, and based on what you said, you would like to keep it simple and easy to repair, I would recomend a Small Block Chevy,V8archie the resident installer/and kit seller, would be the best to advise you on this route. If it does have the fiero cradle the install will be very doable like a regular fiero, but if it has the ferrari cradle with custom mounts it will be hard, since new mount will have to be designed. But the cool thing about a Smal Block Chevy V8 is that they can be built to satisfy anyones needs for the right price.
------------------ PROJECT 1986 GT Stormbringer
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12:22 PM
vortecfiero Member
Posts: 996 From: Toronto Area, Canada Registered: Feb 2002
please put a Ferrari engine in there !!!! any Ferrari engine ! by the time you spend a pile of $$ to do a conversion from a conversion... you will probably have spent more than if you retrofitted the origonal setup... and when its time to sell... it will pay off bigtime
------------------ GT just waiting for the conversion 84 Fiero Turbo Vortec 4300 Phantom GT L35 block, Syclone Intake and ECM T31 turbine with T04B S3 compressor super T61 waiting for next winter www.cardomain.com/id/vortecfiero Murphy's Constant Matter will be damaged in direct proportion to its value Murphy's Law of Thermodynamics Things get worse under pressure. Arthur C. Clarke "Any significantly advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
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12:52 PM
THE BEAST Member
Posts: 1177 From: PORT SAINT LUCIE,FLORIDA,USA Registered: Dec 2000
I own a 1981 Ferrari 308 that has been retrofitted with a Fiero 2.8 liter and 5 speed tranny. The entire rear subframe from the Fiero was used, including the engine cradle, transaxle, etc. At some point I will likely want to upgrade the engine to something more powerful. I don't want anything too radical, and I want something that's dependable and reasonably easy to service. I'd like some suggestions on what I could put in the car, given that it's basically a Fiero rear end. I know about V-8 Archie, but I'm sure other options have also been explored within the Fiero community. This isn't something I can do myself, so I'd also appreciate any suggestions on who I might hire to do this for me, and what it might cost. And in case this question comes up - yes, it is a real Ferrari, not a Mera or knock off 308 body. I look forward to any input. Thanks
First let me welcome you to this forum, I have seen your car before, from the ebay auction. Not a bad deal if you ask me. More over I believe that we all be more than happy to help you on your quest for more power, so we that been said. I believe your car will definitely fit the personality of the 3.4 DOCH (Best one for sound and somewhat more affordable than the N*) or the N* V8 and both of this swaps are kind of popular on fieros so many of us here can help you, and like you said it they require nearly not maintenance when compare to Ferrari engines.
I have always admire Ferraris so much that I still want one whenever the time and money are good, but for now I think the Fiero can be dial and upgrade enough to satisfy my appetite/being competitive at a reasonable price, although for now and I don't even have planned to ever sale my Fiero.
JG
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01:08 PM
SCCAFiero Member
Posts: 1144 From: Boca Raton, Fl USA Registered: Apr 2006
If I had a 308 I would have done the same thing except used a 3800SC in the first place. A lot more power for a fraction of the maintenance is worth every penny of the conversion. Stock 308s are pretty lame in the power department but handle really well.
The last 308 I played with cost over $800 for a water pump and that was a few years ago.
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01:10 PM
Francis T Member
Posts: 6620 From: spotsylvania va. usa Registered: Oct 2003
First off, Very nice looking car. So you've been to the Ferari forurms huh, and they haven't sent a hit man to house yet? I appreciate you concern with maint cost if you went back to org equip not mention what that intial cost would be do that! I almost probably rebuild my engine for the cost of just a new Ferari clutch. As for hurting the valuve, it dont much anymore with that GM drive train. But then hopefully you didnt pay top $ for it. Also 308s were made in decent numbers os it not like you did in 250 by dumping the V-12. BTW: do have any idea on what the car weighs now? You may have in way turn the tables some, whereas Farari owners etc, like to ***** about Fiero kit cars with Farari bages on them.
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01:13 PM
Mr.PBody Member
Posts: 3172 From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA Registered: Oct 2006
You should race it against a 308 with the original V8, with the spec sheets I've seen, the Fiero was faster but the chassis on the 308 was better on the twisties. So is it really the best of both worlds? I know that that Ferrari motor was a complete POS in terms of maintenence.
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02:46 PM
bmwguru Member
Posts: 4692 From: Howell, NJ USA Registered: Sep 2006
The belts on the 308 should be replaced about evry 10k miles. Let me tell you they are the skinniest belts I have ever seen. Yes they are high maintenance...but so are most of the owners. Our shop joke...and it is so true. What is the difference between a Porsche and a porcuipine (spelling?)
The pricks are on the inside of a Porsche.
I actually trun away about 50% of the Porsche and Ferrari owners that come into my shop for repairs because I can't deal with the attitudes. The other 50% are golden. Dave
I'm told the entire rear subframe from a Fiero was used, so it's got the stock Fiero engine cradle. Given that, maybe V8 Archie? Will they do the install, and how much will it cost turnkey? What kind of MPG would I get with that setup? Also, good A/C is important to me. I believe the rear suspension is all Fiero as well, but it may have been modified. Handles fine on smooth pavement, but I live in a rural area and I've noticed that the rear end will boucne and skip around a bit at high speeds when on rough pavement. Would this indicate bad struts? Recomendations ? As for the motor, I'm not all that disappointed with the performance as is. The biggest issue I have is that momentary hesitation mentioned earlier, which happens when you step hard on the gas. I owned several Fieros in my day, including a couple of 308 replicas. One thing I can tell you is, a Fiero is more comfortable to sit in and drive. The Ferrari is quite uncomfortable to sit in and drive, but you get used to it. You have to adjust the seat back in order to have enough headroom with the top on. I am considering bolting the seats directly to the floor or trying to find a set of racing seats that will sit lower. The car does get attention. Just today I was sitting in a Sonic drive up having lunch and a lady came with her 12 year old son who wanted to see the car. I invited him to sit in the drivers seat. My 16 year old daughter hates it because she says it attracts too much attention. For a 25 year + design, the 308 still looks incredible to me.
[This message has been edited by TEW (edited 11-18-2006).]
I tend to agree that the car needs a 3800sc engine. The supercharger will sound more Ferrari-like, and the 3800sc gives lots of performance.
If you have the $$ though, an Archie kit with an SBC is a pretty reliable and powerful drivetrain.
Arn
Personally I've never heard a ferrari Whine, but Ive only heard a few. Keep in mind if you looking for something that has some ferrari-ness to it, a 3800sc only revs to about 5500rpm. and they have enough torque to shred your 5-speed.
[This message has been edited by FieroWannaBe (edited 11-18-2006).]
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04:46 PM
THE BEAST Member
Posts: 1177 From: PORT SAINT LUCIE,FLORIDA,USA Registered: Dec 2000
I will not attempt to used any engine that is much heavier than the stock, since that will involve a lot of suspension dialing, the F-308 engines where tiny all aluminium V8, so this is one thing you might want to keep in mind, a Small Chevi Block is quite heavy (Iron block and heads) you could shave off some of the weight by using aluminum heads, but the way I see it do you really want to own the First F308 with 5,500 rpm redline Ferrari???????
I know this can be improve, but wherever is available to make the valve train to take higher rpms is never compare to the Over head Cams design and one of the many proof to this is Ferraris engines. The nature of this SBC engines is to have tons of torque at LOW rpms, why? Because (Who better to know than GM it self) how reliable their push rod engines are at 7000+rpms. yes there are some Custom Built high rpm push rod engines out there but it does begs the question Why so few ?
I will not attempt to used any engine that is much heavier than the stock, since that will involve a lot of suspension dialing, the F-308 engines where tiny all aluminium V8, so this is one thing you might want to keep in mind, a Small Chevi Block is quite heavy (Iron block and heads) you could shave off some of the weight by using aluminum heads, but the way I see it do you really want to own the First F308 with 5,500 rpm redline Ferrari???????
I know this can be improve, but wherever is available to make the valve train to take higher rpms is never compare to the Over head Cams design and one of the many proof to this is Ferraris engines. The nature of this SBC engines is to have tons of torque at LOW rpms, why? Because (Who better to know than GM it self) how reliable their push rod engines are at 7000+rpms. yes there are some Custom Built high rpm push rod engines out there but it does begs the question Why so few ?
Well a Aluminum Headed 327 with a roller cam can hit 7000 rpm no problem. Dont get me wrong a dohc engine is right at home in a ferrari but if he is looking for a reliable cheap engine, an sbc is the way to go, He doesnt have to worry about wiring or computers or timing belts. Im not a SBC adict either hell im working on TDC swap in my fiero, which BTW is a heavy motor itself cast block and alum. heads. It realy depends on what the owner wants. A northstar is nice, but expensive the only place with aftermarket stuff is http://chrfab.com and they have kind of a monopoly going. If he wants EFI thats a huge hassle. espicially the wiring in this unique setup, I cant imagine what a headache it would be to wire a gm engine to work with all the component of this Ferrari.
Im gonna say what do relaly want this motor to be? A fiero has had almost any type of motor shoe-horned in it.
What i love is that when a normal fiero owners asks what motor is a good swap most people say why dont you search and do you own research, or find out what you want first. It's happened to me. now this unique situation, everyone has an opinion on what is best for him.
V8-archie should be up to the challenge if your paying. or a nothrstar with this on it could be cool, IDK anyone that does installs however, maybe PBJ?
I will not attempt to used any engine that is much heavier than the stock, since that will involve a lot of suspension dialing, the F-308 engines where tiny all aluminium V8, so this is one thing you might want to keep in mind, a Small Chevi Block is quite heavy (Iron block and heads) you could shave off some of the weight by using aluminum heads, but the way I see it do you really want to own the First F308 with 5,500 rpm redline Ferrari???????
I know this can be improve, but wherever is available to make the valve train to take higher rpms is never compare to the Over head Cams design and one of the many proof to this is Ferraris engines. The nature of this SBC engines is to have tons of torque at LOW rpms, why? Because (Who better to know than GM it self) how reliable their push rod engines are at 7000+rpms. yes there are some Custom Built high rpm push rod engines out there but it does begs the question Why so few ?
Ok. So how does the weight of the Fiero 2.8 compare to the all aluminum Ferrari V8?
As stated earlier, I believe I may need some weight/suspension tuning now, given the rear tends to skip around at high speeds on rough roads. I would have thought the suspension needs to be stiffer, but a mechanic friend of mine said tire skipping would indicate the suspension is TOO stiff.
Ok. So how does the weight of the Fiero 2.8 compare to the all aluminum Ferrari V8?
As stated earlier, I believe I may need some weight/suspension tuning now, given the rear tends to skip around at high speeds on rough roads. I would have thought the suspension needs to be stiffer, but a mechanic friend of mine said tire skipping would indicate the suspension is TOO stiff.
I would imagine a v6 maybe bieng a tad lighter if not almost equal, DOHC adds a lot of metal. If it has the fiero A-arms and toe links its gonna jump around on bumpy roads. But you siad youve owned fieros before is it typicall bump-steer?
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06:49 PM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
If it has the fiero A-arms and toe links its gonna jump around on bumpy roads. But you siad youve owned fieros before is it typicall bump-steer?
Well, it's been years since I've owned a Fiero, so I'm not sure. I've been driving 3000GT's for the last 4-5 years. Aren't there fixes/upgrades for the Fiero suspension?
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