Well, I have been working on a replacement transmission for the Fiero. The 282 is not the best manual transmission for V6 with 250plus, nor V8's period... This was happening before Archie started the G6 6 speed project. I did not research the G6 at the time because it was not really available in the salvage yards. I have researched the
MU3
MT2
MG3
M86

With me, its really all about the gear ratios first, then the strenght. Not everyone is beating the quarter mile every weekend, but everyone does want to enjoy driving their Fiero.

Looking at ratios, OEM support, and most important for the hot rodder... 3rd party support.

First ratios....

I have a webpage setup with the ratio broken down by speed vs RPM... I want to turn 6200 as my redline for daily driving. I know the 3800SC can turn 7000, but its not like it needs to turn 7000 every time you shift.

http://www.fastfieros.com/NEW_manual_transmission_ratios.htm

Then if you look at load designed for the transmission.. The MU3/F35 was designed in Europe for towing. This thing can support 5000 lbs.

Then the OEM support. You can now order a Ion or a cobalt with a Quaife for 06... http://www.quaifeamerica.com/news.htm

If a person is going to use an adapter plate in a V8 application, then you might as well have whatever transmission. Yes, the G6 would have bolted right to the 3800SC, but the other supporting items to this 6 speed does not make it very well suited either.

The MU3/F35 is available for $650. If an adapter plate is going to be designed, it might as well be around something that is available in several cars vs only one car. The G6 GTP is the only getting the 6 speed this year.

Here's another page I had worked on and it has some different information http://www.fastfieros.com/tech/2006_transmissions.htm

What do you guys think?

Ratios?
Strenght?
Available in several cars?

Loyde

[This message has been edited by FastFieros (edited 10-17-2005).]

for me its reliability before gear ratios - I can't fully enjoy it if i have to worry about it breaking on me

hense the current v6 4speed since the differential is its weak link
ideal tranny would be atleast as strong as that one with the same gear ratios on 1-4 with a long 5th

[This message has been edited by Kohburn (edited 10-17-2005).]

I more interested in gearing, and smoothness. I like tight close ratio transmissions. Plus, I don't need 300++ HP, I'd be quite happy with 200-250 HP with awesome gears. This is actually the entire reason I started becoming interested in swapping a saturn 1.9L into my fiero.

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AIM= Fish100770
96 Saturn SL2 Turbo (evil SL2)

My cardomain site: cardomain.com/memberpage/702872

I want 500+ hp stable. 230mph top speed. Ok thats alittle much but you get the point. 6 speed would be nice for both top speed and fuel economy. If its in 20 diffrent stock car types all the better. with a 6 speed you could have short low gears and longer high gears giving you both 1/4 quick and top speed fast.

The ratios dont add up for the 6 speed compared to the GETRAG 282 Fiero however...

Look at the chart... I will make a pic of it so I can post it. >

The speed of first gear is 37 in a 282... in the G6 it is 34

Each time you shift, it is a negative to speed and time. A human cannot shift a cable actuated transmission consistant every time. Now todays transmission is better built, and the cables are getting better.

The gears being stronger? The MU3/F35 is designed for towing in mind. Build to GVW 5000 lbs. I would say that is strong for a 2700 lb car. Then the OEM support is going to be there for the drifting. Its in the Ion and Cobalt SS... This is a supercharged 2.0 engine making a claimed 200HP, but independent testing has shown 200HP at the TIRES...

I am liking the EcoTech engine with the SC option. This looks like a ecomony and performance setup for the Fiero. The transmission developed to the Fiero, an adapter plate for the V8's and V6 3800's, then the other supporting items.

Loyde

ANYTHING Loyde !!! just hurry it up, make it affordable, oh and hurry up !!!!!!

I'd prefer a Stronger 5speed over the 'socal cooness' of the 6th gear anyday.

LMK when that adapter is ready for the 5speed

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 10-17-2005).]

Unfortunately, it's like anything else--I want it all.

Whether it has 5 or 6 gears isn't a big deal because the gearing is what counts. I would want something where the low gears promote fun and spirited driving, while 5th (or 6th) really stretches to salvage some gas mileage.

Strength would be a close second when choosing a transmission because a weak or broken tranny doesn't promote the driving excitement I wished for above. Ideally, something you wouldn't mind sticking behind a mildly upgraded V8 would be more than sufficient for anything I would want to do. In the real world however, I would narrow my choices using gear ratios then make my final decision with strength in mind.

Sorry I can't usefully comment on any of the transmissions in your links, but I haven't really experienced the stock 282 to compare them to. I’m still waiting to find my first Fiero.

The early Saturn had a F25... The later one is F35.. They look the same however from what I can find on the Saturn forums.

Ok, now there's one thought I had not being thinking until now... Gas Mileage... I am not very mileage thoughtful when I drive, but when I hit that gas pump, the sticker shock saids I wish I better mileage in something fun to drive...

OK, so the G6 trans has a 0.62 6th gear.. This works out to 1925RPM@65MPH

The MU3 works out to 2479RPM@65

The 282(Fiero GETRAG) for reference is 2168RPM@65MPH

Ok, now one area I really stress here on the MU3, is support. OEM support, 3rd party vendor support. What will really become available for this transmission as more and more Ion's or Cobalts are tried in Drifting, NHRA, and other events where GM likes to get involved in.

If gears become available, this opens up this transmission to other gear potential.

Quaife already jumped on board and GM responded with an OEM option for the LSD. I also read on a Saturn forum that a 6 speed UPGRADE was coming for a 5 speed transmission? That would be pulling a rabbit out of the hat in my opinion.

The cases must be strong enough for this to have GM approve it.

Loyde

[This message has been edited by FastFieros (edited 10-17-2005).]

IMO, it depends on the engine.

Something like a V8 or 3800, with a broad torque band, doesn't need alot of gear ratios to get up to speed. Actually, shifting alot of gears will waste time. So for a "torque-monster" engine, I'd say a 4-spd or a 5-spd with the top gear sized for highway cruising.

Now, if you have a high-RPM screamer, or an engine with a big turbo, then you're going to need a short-ratio transmission with alot of gear ratios. So, for something like that, a 6-spd gearbox might be a good idea.

I found the upgrade option for the F25 finally...

Here are the numbers..

Quaife UPGRADE F25 to 6 Speed

Not a gas mileage transmission ratio for sure... Talk about a 1st gear however.. 47MPH at 6200RPM...

Loyde

if we could find a 6spd with nice gearing that can handle v8 power that would be great and everybody would be happy, to bad nobody knows of one.

or do they (hopefully)

I am a SBC guy:
1. 1st gear that will last to at least 45-50 at 6000 rpm
2. Cruise the interstate at 2000 rpms or less at 75 mph.
3. Hold up to 400+ lb-ft all day long.
As far as the number of speeds... it doesn't really matter if it satisfies all 3.

I have been looking at transmission ratios for the last couple years and have a spreadsheet with the ratios, mph/gear, cruise at 70mph, etc for the stock fiero manual trannys, 17 other 5 speeds, and 10 FWD 6 speeds. If you want a copy, just PM me with your email.

The 76 MM Isuzu has been a research project for quite some time and I "suspect" that many of the gear sets of the Isuzu 76 MM family interchange - I have not proven this yet. These 5 speeds were in a wide variety of cars and have a mix of ratios. 87 Turbo Spectrum is "rumored" to have a 2.83 final drive as a 1 year only option which would drop cruise RPM big time! Also the turbo Isuzu cars had a 3.50 and 3.43 1st gears, which would eliminate the excessive RPM drop on the 1/2 upshift. Another unproven area is that GM cheaped out on the heat treating on the gears used in GM cars and that the import/pure Isuzu gearsets are much, much stronger. If the 76 MM Isuzu family interchanges, then an Isuzu with the following ratio is theoretically possible:

3.43, 2.15, 1.45, 1.03, .74 and with a 2.83 final drive you get 45 mph at 6000 rpm in 1st gear (24.6 Dia tires), 2000 RPM at 70 and less RPM drop between gears. I don't know how strong this tranny would be, but it is the closest thing ratio-wise to my ideal tranny and would be great for my planned 4.3 swap.

Even if you can't find the 2.83 final drive, the swap to the 3.43 1st gear would be a great improvement for the Fiero Isuzu

The reality is there probably isn’t a trans that will hold up to a lot of torque.

So this is what I would like.
1) A reasonably priced trans.
2) Top Gear (5th or 6th) to be an overdrive gear to keep the RPMs as low as possible on the highway.
3) After market support. The availability of an LSD and a choice of clutches.

another thought is i have no problem with 1st and 2nd gears being straight cut for added strength - but the cruising gears should be helical to be quiet

It sounds like you may be getting into the business of installing ecotechs into fieros. If this is so I want to give you all the encouragement I can because this is the type of swap I am interested in. Are you thinking of doing installations only or selling Kits?

Jon

quote Originally posted by cy1clown: It sounds like you may be getting into the business of installing ecotechs into fieros. If this is so I want to give you all the encouragement I can because this is the type of swap I am interested in. Are you thinking of doing installations only or selling Kits? Jon

If its got a supercharger on it, and OBDII, I want to be a part of it.

I think this is the gas mileage replacement to the 32MPG duke, plus performance.

That SC is a GEN 5 looking version from the S3 3800...

Been doing alot of reading on the Cobalt and Ion forums.. That transmission is very upgradeable, and the OEM support looks promising.

Loyde

If I remember correctly didn't several car mags criticized the gear ratios in the ion redline and cobalt SS? That is one of my worries with this swap. Other than that I agree that this would be a good swap to provide good performance with decent gas mileage.

Jon

I'd want something that will handle 300 HP 300 FT/lbs in the fiero with a top gear that will drop my 60 mph rpms lowers (about 1700). Basically I like the gearing on my 4 speed (3.65 final drive) but I want a 5th gear added on to drop the cruising rpms.

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Low 14 sec 99 Pontiac GTP, 3.2L V6 4 sp 86 Fiero GT

why dont the gear ratio number add up for my trans?
i have a 282 out of a cavalier. first 28mph. second is 55mph. third is 80mph.
70 cruise is 2600 rpm.
?

It will be nice to see how you guys tackle the HP/TQ problems on this trannies...then...it will also be nice to see how you will market this trannies...I personally see this project costing in the neigborhood of $3500 minimum...and that is just throwing the numbers out there...it will look closer to $4XXX.00 when everything is said and done for those wanting custom amenities...

Luck Good...a journey it will be

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: 1. 1st gear that will last to at least 45-50 at 6000 rpm 2. Cruise the interstate at 2000 rpms or less at 75 mph. 3. Hold up to 400+ lb-ft all day long.

Ditto, with modifications.

Build it to stand 500+ horsepower. As time goes by and technology progresses, we're going to be putting more and more horsepower to the wheels. Might as well do this right the first time around and finally rid the Fiero community of the problem of trannies being our weak link in achieving good, reliable performance.

A first gear that'll last to 45 at 6000rpm would be a good compromise for the different horsepower/torque ratings and power band engines that will use the tranny.

Having the first few gears pretty close would be preferred for some good quarter miles times, with sixth as far out there as it needs to be for good low-rpm crusing and top speed.

As long as all can be said and done for under $10k, it'll be worth it. Half that price would be nicely competitive, but maybe not feasible for what's being asked?

[This message has been edited by timwdegner (edited 10-18-2005).]

Bump.

Loyde, how did I miss this thread??

I am a die hard stick guy, and I regret allowing my 4.9 to stay mated to the 4T60e. But, I was afraid of mating it to a rickety Isuzu or even a 282 because of the lousy ratios. Now if there were an option for a reliable and ratio friendly 6 speed I would be all over it.

I owned an LT1 trans am with the 6 speed transmission and that combination was awesome, it pulled hard in every gear and top speed and acceleration was amazing.

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: Been doing alot of reading on the Cobalt and Ion forums.. That transmission is very upgradeable, and the OEM support looks promising. Loyde

that's what i want in my next daily driver fiero.

thomas...

Is enough room for the supercharger and the firewall on a Fiero?

This is a fun engine. I drove a Saturn Ion with it last year at a GM Auto Show in Motion event. They rev like a chain saw.

quote Originally posted by sanderson: Is enough room for the supercharger and the firewall on a Fiero? This is a fun engine. I drove a Saturn Ion with it last year at a GM Auto Show in Motion event. They rev like a chain saw.

Not sure at this time. Maybe in 3 weeks I can answer this

Loyde

Loyde, You need a clone.

so any pregress?

One supercharged 2.0 EcoTec and 5 speed MU3 transmission on the way to FastFieros...

Going to be at least December however before I can work this between my current workload on swaps...

The more interest in this conbination the more moviated I am to work. That is one problem with the LS1 installs, not enough interest at the price that is needed to install an LS1 to a Fiero today. I cannot help that a LS1 engine with low miles is $4000 - $6000 dollars.

I hope that development for a 5 speed that can handle 500HP is excepted and wanted..

Loyde

Loyde,

A good fit for a light, bare bones '84. Just move the C500 over and up by the driver's side deck lid hinge. No harness splicing required. There's already enough length in the harness to do this.

Finish it up and bring it down to Canyon Lake some weekend and we'll go straighten out some twisted Hill Country roads.

I am interested!! This would look good in my Indy. I like the idea of this and the F35 in a Fiero. This could be THE swap of the 21st century.

I should really start a new thread, but lets see if I can generate some interest in this little EcoTec 2.0 4 banger... First off, supercharged vs turbo... We are talking 100% realiable daily driver, gas mileage, and performance. In that order...

This is some nice pics of the EcoTec in action of the supercharger flow.. Guys, this is INTERCOOLED from the factory... These engines are good to 500HP with a supercharger or turbo.. The supercharger will need alot of upgrading to hit 500, but it can handle 325HP from what I have read...

You can download the build book for this engine in several places on the web, but here it is on my website if you want it.. This is a reference from STOCK to 250HP...

http://www.fastfieros.com/tech/ecotecstock_250.pdf

Here is a story that is kind of hard to find on the web about the EcoTec developement..

http://www.fastfieros.com/tech/ecotec.pdf

Loyde

Loyde, what would be the advantage of going with the EcoTech instead of a 3800SC ?

quote Originally posted by PaulJK: Loyde, what would be the advantage of going with the EcoTech instead of a 3800SC ?

About 250 lbs or more, longer rev range factory, factory intercooler, big power potential, (GM has ecotecs putting out 800-1000HP from 2.0 turbo's), assuming better gas mileage, etc.

------------------
AIM= Fish100770
96 Saturn SL2 Turbo (evil SL2)

My cardomain site: cardomain.com/memberpage/702872

quote Originally posted by PaulJK: Loyde, what would be the advantage of going with the EcoTech instead of a 3800SC ?

Advantage? Humm, this falls under opinion....

V8 = No replacement for displacement
V6 supercharged = $$$ for $$$ ratio in value
4 cylinder supercharged = Never been done

I guess weight is the advantage. In todays performance world we have V6 engines out running V8's, and now we have 4 cylinder engines capable of out running V8's. What is the V8 world coming to?

I sit here and think about a 4 cylinder engine as daily driver for fuel mileage. Then I read all the material that GM takes these engines and makes 1400HP out of 4 pistons popping up and down. Its not like they are boring this thing to 4 inch pistons and stoking the thing to 350 cu inches either. I use to do this. I raced in the midgets and we used the iron duke engine of all things. I built 52 2.5 engines in 2 years time for racing. Finally the engine would turn 6200 RPM, and make about 205HP after many ported heads, and many broke parts. Now we have a engine that can make 250HP from the factory with just fuel changes and minor hardware. Back in those days of my racing it was power to weight ratio. 725lbs total weight of the car. Its still the same thoughts today in driving a car on the street. Get the weight as low as possible, and HP as high as your pocket book allows.

So, if a Fiero weights 2700lbs with a 2.8V6 and it makes 145HP, you can imagine what that same feeling is going to be at 2600lbs at 250HP..

Then there is the wow factor. Thats the wow, a 4 cylinder just out ran a V8 SBC car.

There's the has not been done yet factor. I when back to the archives and I see I missed alot of threads on ecotec conversations in the last 2 years. CetiCars is working on putting a 2.2 engine in a stretched Fiero chassis. He has called me many times but never mentioned he was doing this. I see a couple others might have purchased engines, but does not look like they even have the engine and transmission mounted to cradles.

The EcoTec supercharged engine should be a gas mileage and daily driver, then performance to satisfy the guy that just needs that extra boost getting on the freeway, or occasional fun run with his buddies. I dont see putting a 350HP ecotec engine in Fiero over a 3800SC or LS1 personally.

I heard one of these things the other day that was mod'ed out to about 250 with nitrous. It turn so many RPM's before it shifted, it sounded like an Indy car making 10k RPM's.

Now, the advantage to me really in the long run is the 5 speed transmission. I did not realize until very recent the LSJ 2.0 Supercharged engine only came on the MU3 5 speed. The automatic is not on the LSJ engine. If you read alot about where this transmission came from, it is designed for power and heavy loads. Then there is the OEM support behind this transmission. I favor the 4T65eHD because GM is behind this transmission to make it strong and handle power. When I call various race shops to talk about whats in development, its about what GM is supporting in the racing programs. Currently GM is allowing two types of upgrades in the Cobalt SS and Ion redline. Stage 2 is said to be 250HP at the tires. GM is allowing an LSD to be installed. These are things that still carry a factory warrantty. Can you imagine the testing that was done to see when it really breaks to allow upgrades and RPO ordering on these types of items.

I am excited to try it at least. Its not difficult for me to look at all the computers and modules needed to make this work in the Fiero. Then the EPS (electric power steering) was just something that I figured I might as well try also since the BCM has to be in the install for the PCM. There's still one more little surprise about this package that makes it very unique to install and work in a Fiero.

Well, that is the many thoughts I have about this…

Loyde

[This message has been edited by FastFieros (edited 10-25-2005).]

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: I should really start a new thread, but lets see if I can generate some interest in this little EcoTec 2.0 4 banger... First off, supercharged vs turbo... We are talking 100% realiable daily driver, gas mileage, and performance. In that order... This is some nice pics of the EcoTec in action of the supercharger flow.. Guys, this is INTERCOOLED from the factory... These engines are good to 500HP with a supercharger or turbo.. The supercharger will need alot of upgrading to hit 500, but it can handle 325HP from what I have read... Loyde

Doh. Wish I would have known you were moving toward the ecotecs before I went 3800 haha. Can't wait to see what you can make those puppies do. Keep us updated, I have been very interested in the high performance ecotecs for a while.

--Will

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My Cardomain Website: BLACKHEART FIERO

Loyde

This is great I am looking at being in the market for a swap next spring/summer. It looks like you might be ready for another install about then.
The things I like about this swap are the light weight, I autocross, and the decent gas mileage, I daily drive the car, and of course the HORSEPOWER.
Great work, keep us posted.

Jon

quote Originally posted by cy1clown: Loyde This is great I am looking at being in the market for a swap next spring/summer. It looks like you might be ready for another install about then. The things I like about this swap are the light weight, I autocross, and the decent gas mileage, I daily drive the car, and of course the HORSEPOWER. Great work, keep us posted. Jon

Well, the new stuff will be here Thursday.. Yeah... I have been sick and need some medicene...

Loyde