I've just about given up on my 3.4 Formula. I've had a lot of electrical problems with this car, the latest being a fuel pump relay that I can't get running, a smoked ECM, and an EGR solenoid that I can't make work, which means it can't pass smog (which is due this month). I'd been thinking that I'd like to build a car with a Caddy 4.9. I drove Ed Park's car last summer, and I really liked it. So I was doing some bench racing ideas with Pokeyfiero, and thought that if I switched to a 4.9, I'd end up with a more powerful engine, new wiring on the engine side (I assume). I could use the 3.4 in another Fiero. Pokey says "why not just do a 3800SC?". So, the questions are:

1. what is the weight difference between a 4.9 and a 3800SC? (assume series 2)

2. what kind of fuel economy do you get with a Fiero 4.9, 4 speed auto? (not a major concern, just curious)

well, i cant help you with the weight differences but ill give you alittle info:

4.9L is 200hp and 270-300ft/lbs and in a fiero gets 26-32MPG highway in stock form
3.8L superchargedd is 240HP and 280ft/lbs and in a fiero gets 28-32MPG highway in stock form

both using their stock automatic transaxles, and assuming everything is working properly

the 3.8L has alot more aftermarket, but the 4.9L's initial cost is normally cheaper.

the 3.8L clearly doesnt have a v8 sound, where the 4.9L will have a v8 sound.

im told the 3.8L is about 50-100lbs heavier than a stock 2.8L, and the 4.9L is nearly identicle in weight to a 2.8L

matthew

quote Originally posted by m0sh_man: im told the 3.8L is about 50-100lbs heavier than a stock 2.8L, and the 4.9L is nearly identicle in weight to a 2.8L matthew

WOW, that surprises me. Pokeyfiero thought I was crazy, calling the 4.9 a "boat anchor" (he thought it would be very heavy).

I really like the torque numbers of the 4.9. I don't need high end speed, which I assume, would be better with a more horsepower than torque oriented engine.

mOsh_man is right about the 4.9 weight, it is *slightly* heavier than the 2.8

A 4.9 with a manual is probably lighter than a 2.8 on an auto.

If I remember right the 4.9 has an aluminum block and heads and that is what makes it lighter than the 3.8. Correct?

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The Steel Lady: Pix to follow........

Super Bowl XL CHAMPS!!!

4.9 heads are iron the block is alloy only
the t60 trans is heavyer then the t125 by about 50lbs
4.9 is about equal to the 2.8/3.4
3800 is about 80 lbs heavyer

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Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

quote Originally posted by jscott1: A 4.9 with a manual is probably lighter than a 2.8 on an auto.

I'd have to stay with the manual to smog in California. That's OK, the car is (supposed to be) my daily driver, is already an auto, and I use it for driving around in Bay Area traffic.

For daily driver duty, you just might be thrilled with a 4.9 - they're light enough to avoid screwing up the handling of the car, and provide enough performance to be dangerous.

It's only a valid choice in CA if you use an automatic transmission - and for goodness sakes, use the 4 speed automatic that the Caddy engine came with.

Some may complain that there's better choices that are more powerful or faster or whatever - but nothing satisfies the need for greater performance at a lower cost than the Caddy 4.9 - it gets reasonable gas mileage, is very reliable, and makes that lovely V8 sound.

This isn't anything like the 3.4 swap where if you pay attention you can tell it's a little faster - this swap won't leave any doubt in your mind that your Fiero is a whole different car.

quote Originally posted by Whuffo: For daily driver duty, you just might be thrilled with a 4.9 - they're light enough to avoid screwing up the handling of the car, and provide enough performance to be dangerous. It's only a valid choice in CA if you use an automatic transmission - and for goodness sakes, use the 4 speed automatic that the Caddy engine came with.

I would DEFINATELY use the 4 speed. I was planning to swap a 4 speed into the 3.4, at one point, anyway.

quote Some may complain that there's better choices that are more powerful or faster or whatever - but nothing satisfies the need for greater performance at a lower cost than the Caddy 4.9 - it gets reasonable gas mileage, is very reliable, and makes that lovely V8 sound.

From what I understand, this isn't that tough of a swap to do, and MUCH simpler than doing a 3800SC, with all the wiring/computer issues and so forth. I'm thinking it's someting that Andrew and I could do in my shop, with Andrew handling any welding duties.

quote This isn't anything like the 3.4 swap where if you pay attention you can tell it's a little faster - this swap won't leave any doubt in your mind that your Fiero is a whole different car.

Oh, I know first hand. I drove Ed Park's 4.9 at Osage Beach last summer. When I got on it (briefly, or I'd be doing over 100 in no time), the speedo went up like it was the tachometer. It got up in a HURRY.

Bear,

I'm doing a 4.9 build thread in the CFOGi forum if you want to take a look.

Dan

quote Originally posted by DanFiero: Bear, I'm doing a 4.9 build thread in the CFOGi forum if you want to take a look. Dan

That's cool, although it appears I'm not registered for the forum.

Bear; If I'd kown that you wanted to check out 4.9s at Osage, I'd have let you drive mine. The difference my exaust makes is very noticable. I drove Dan Bunkers GT wicth is an Ed Parks car and was amazed at the difference.

As for gas mileage mine's not running quite right at the moment, haven't had time to work on it, but I'm getting about 17 in town and 24 on the hwy. When it's right it's more like 19.5 and 28. Oh ya I don't drive it easy, if I could stay off the gas I'd do even better, it's just to much fun to drive.Cheers Beers n Gears. Joe

I don't believe that's right, Bear.

IIRC, the POWERTRAIN MUST STAY THE SAME and the Caddy never came with a manual. If you swap a 4.9 with the 4T60E and keep all emissions equipment intact, it should pass the visual inspection (keep a cat on it) and then you just have to pass the sniffer.

John Stricker

edited to add.......

We are just finishing up a 4.9 for Dan's Tweety with a fresh OH 4.9. The only thing it would need to be smog legal is a cat and to use the evap can from the caddy instead of the Fiero one, so we can use the purge connection. What car are you thinking about doing this on? I have no idea what I get for city mileage, I live in KS for cryin out loud! IF (and this is a big IF) I drive posted speed limits, I can get 31 mpg on the highway. If I step it up 10 over or so, I get about 28 mpg. PM me if you want more information.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: I'd have to stay with the manual to smog in California. That's OK, the car is (supposed to be) my daily driver, is already an auto, and I use it for driving around in Bay Area traffic.

[This message has been edited by jstricker (edited 03-29-2006).]

quote Originally posted by jstricker: I don't believe that's right, Bear. IIRC, the POWERTRAIN MUST STAY THE SAME and the Caddy never came with a manual. If you swap a 4.9 with the 4T60E and keep all emissions equipment intact, it should pass the visual inspection (keep a cat on it) and then you just have to pass the sniffer. John Stricker

Sorry, I meant to say automatic.

quote edited to add....... We are just finishing up a 4.9 for Dan's Tweety with a fresh OH 4.9. The only thing it would need to be smog legal is a cat and to use the evap can from the caddy instead of the Fiero one, so we can use the purge connection. What car are you thinking about doing this on? I have no idea what I get for city mileage, I live in KS for cryin out loud! IF (and this is a big IF) I drive posted speed limits, I can get 31 mpg on the highway. If I step it up 10 over or so, I get about 28 mpg. PM me if you want more information.

If you guys have a build thread, that would be helpful. Maybe we can drop you an email or two, if we get stuck. I'm sure pokeyfiero and I can do the swap in my shop.

Oh, and which car...my 3.4 Formula. It's already an auto. Read the first post for the background info on this.

[This message has been edited by fierobear (edited 03-29-2006).]

I don't know why you didn't take the Finale for a spin at Osage. Heck, I let Blake drive it, so that alone shows I'm not that picky Dan took it for a spin as well. I have one thing left to do to Dan's car and it's D O N E. Really, Dan. I wouldn't lie. A/C got charged today and had 80 degree air in, 41 coming out. Air Box even got mounted.

If you run into any snags, give me a shout.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by fierobear: If you guys have a build thread, that would be helpful. Maybe we can drop you an email or two, if we get stuck. I'm sure pokeyfiero and I can do the swap in my shop. Oh, and which car...my 3.4 Formula. It's already an auto. Read the first post for the background info on this.

"From what I understand, this isn't that tough of a swap to do, and MUCH simpler than doing a 3800SC, with all the wiring/computer issues and so forth."
Is that right, MUCH easier?

quote Originally posted by countach711: "From what I understand, this isn't that tough of a swap to do, and MUCH simpler than doing a 3800SC, with all the wiring/computer issues and so forth." Is that right, MUCH easier?

I don't know. That's why I'm posting in Tech.

The only thing I want to commit on is the torque of these motors.. I have driven both, and worked on both engines extensively...

The 4.9 makes the torque right now to about 5200, and it is flat and falling.. It might peak at 300, but its not a broad 300...

The 3800SC makes the torque right now also. Its torque band is board however, and the engine will pull to 6000 with no problem, and some Grand Prixs have turn 7000 with stock bottom ends. I personally set the manual installs to 6200 upper limit for 6000 shift points. Same with the automatics, but it is seamless at WOT.

So, I would put a bone stock 3800SC in a Fiero up against a 4.9 with same automatic transmissions any day, and feel the 3800sc will win.

ok, one more thing.. the bolt on mods for the 3800sc bring the HP and torque to new levels.. 3.4 pulley, CAI, good exhaust, 72mm TB will get you about 265HP and 300 torque.. Add a stage 2 IC, you got a 12 second car ...

Loyde

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: The only thing I want to commit on is the torque of these motors.. I have driven both, and worked on both engines extensively... The 4.9 makes the torque right now to about 5200, and it is flat and falling.. It might peak at 300, but its not a broad 300... The 3800SC makes the torque right now also. Its torque band is board however, and the engine will pull to 6000 with no problem, and some Grand Prixs have turn 7000 with stock bottom ends. I personally set the manual installs to 6200 upper limit for 6000 shift points. Same with the automatics, but it is seamless at WOT. So, I would put a bone stock 3800SC in a Fiero up against a 4.9 with same automatic transmissions any day, and feel the 3800sc will win. ok, one more thing.. the bolt on mods for the 3800sc bring the HP and torque to new levels.. 3.4 pulley, CAI, good exhaust, 72mm TB will get you about 265HP and 300 torque.. Add a stage 2 IC, you got a 12 second car ... Loyde

Thanks for the info, Loyde.

I'm not worried about having the most powerful engine, or the fastest car. It seems like an easier swap, and easier to smog in CA, and cheaper overall. I drove Ed's car, and liked it. I'm happy with an automatic as a daily driver, which will be good in stop and go traffic in this area.

I agree with Loyde Iv`e driven the 4.9 & own a 3800SC , because I did drive a 4.9. But the important thing is --its your car --and what makes you happy in the end, Good luck on your new project...

It all depends on what things one person considers "hard". For instance, if you can't weld and have no fabricating skills, then you're going to have a problem with any swap although it would be possible to do a 4.9L with NO welding whatsoever. I prefer to weld the mounts, but they could be bolted. If you find wiring hard and use a pre made wiring harness either like Ed's for the 4.9 or one from Loyde for the 3800 SC then there's really no difference in that regard.

I personally think the 4.9 is a MUCH easier swap than the SBC and a much nicer fit in the Fiero. The 3800 fits well too, it just depends on what you want to do. I'm not real sure how Loyde is comparing the 4.9 torque to the 3800SC. They may both have the same numbers, but when I had the 4.9 on the dyno I was making almost 280 ft lbs at about 2,000 rpm. Coincidentally, on Interstate, I cruise at about 2,000 or 2,100 rpm. The 3800SC can't touch that. Don't get me wrong, I like the SC and have one in my Riviera. I think it's a great engine to swap in to the Fiero. But there is no comparison on low end torque of the two motors.

I think that you can swap the 4.9L in for quite a bit less money. Once you find your donor car and make sure everything on it is functional that you'll need (Engine, Trans, PCM) it will cost you:

Axles (about $250)
Wiring Harness (about $600)
Mounts (about $350)
New Rubber mounts ($75)
A/C lines ($75)
Idlers, tensioner, belt($100)
New water pump ($65)
Miscellaneous parts, pieces, and stuff to buy ($500)

Total: $2,000

Now those prices are what Ed used to charge, he's not selling a lot of his stuff anymore to the public, only doing installs. You can make up your own axles, so the cost will be a little less but the work required will be more. You can still get the wiring harness from another vendor here on the forum but as I understand it, he does NOT modify the water outlet on the 4.9L to accept the '88 temp sender and include it like Ed used to do, so that will have to be done. You don't HAVE to have new A/C lines made, you can take the bracket loose from the frame and if you can make your lines fit in the required space that will work, but I don't like it as it leaves a lot of the line unsupported. You don't HAVE to put a new water pump on when the engine is out, but you're nuts if you don't. I'm pretty particular about how I route and mount my fuel lines and heater hoses and that costs money. MPI fuel line will cost you almost $100 if you're going to the 4.9L from the V6. If you had the 4 cylinder it will cost less because the lines are in a better location from Pontiac to get to the 4.9 fittings.

When you find your donor, don't throw anything away. If possible, drive or bring the Caddy home with you. It is a treasure of small parts. CUT THE FUEL LINES OFF ON THE CADDY ON THE RUBBER SOMEWHERE because you're not going to easily find those ends unless you're going to AN braided hose. There are two GM part numbers for steel brackets for the transmission mounts that if you get them for about $7 each you can use the stock Fiero transmission mounts in the stock locations, no hole drilling required. Over the swaps I've done I've learned a lot of little tricks and tips but when I'm writing this stuff out, I can't remember them. It's when you're actually doing the swap that you remember what it is you need to do. Most people say that you need to use the late 4 cylinder throttle cable and it is a direct fit, but you can also use the V6 cable if you modify it and it's mount. You need to cut and weld the cruise bracket to make the caddy cable fit the Fiero cruise. You need to cut and weld the shift arm and cable bracket. I like to use the exhaust manifolds that have a crossover running over the trans, like the 2.8 Fiero engien, and then cut the bottom of the trunk to get a good, freeflowing 2.5" exhaust system. Some people don't want to cut their trunks and that makes the exhaust more difficult.

If your engine comes out of an Eldorado, Ed's style mounting bracket won't work on the front/left/odd cylinder side of the motor. I did take some time when we put Dan's in to make patterns to make a mount that will work on the large, cast aluminum mount that is used on these cars. If you have the smaller, stamped steel mount on the car Ed's mount works fine on that side. This is the one we made patterns for.

We use different pulley and belt combinations than Ed recommends because I think they give better adjustment range with the tensioner and more clearance between the front idler and the firewall. A lot of this stuff is personal preference and just one persons way of doing things vs. another. Either will work, either has it's advantages and disadvantages.

I looked on CFOGi's web site last night and didn't see Dan's thread on the 4.9 install so I don't think he's actually got it up yet. I took few pictures of Dan's swap because he was snapping them, but I did take one of his exhaust since we finished that when he was gone.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by countach711: "From what I understand, this isn't that tough of a swap to do, and MUCH simpler than doing a 3800SC, with all the wiring/computer issues and so forth." Is that right, MUCH easier?

[This message has been edited by jstricker (edited 03-30-2006).]

quote Originally posted by jstricker: I'm not real sure how Loyde is comparing the 4.9 torque to the 3800SC. They may both have the same numbers, but when I had the 4.9 on the dyno I was making almost 280 ft lbs at about 2,000 rpm. Coincidentally, on Interstate, I cruise at about 2,000 or 2,100 rpm. The 3800SC can't touch that. Don't get me wrong, I like the SC and have one in my Riviera. I think it's a great engine to swap in to the Fiero. But there is no comparison on low end torque of the two motors.

But, you dont have a 3800SC in a FastFiero... its the 3500 lbs to 2800 lbs thing in Riviera to Fiero...

Naturally I have some bias to the 3800sc. The engine is modern and still in production. The PCM is based on some of the best fuel and spark management. The transmission code is not where I wish it was, or the tuner software is not one or the other.

When you base decisions on what you will do with the car, and what future performance you expect, I think you get a better idea of the platform you should chose.

California has the challenge in the smog laws. Performance and smog management does not go together very well. It is getting better however as the OEM's release cars with 300+ HP and still getting 22MPG...

This weight difference thing... I just never worry that much about weight. I have no intentions to professionally race a Fiero in autoX where the CG and overall left and right handling needs to be address'ed.. The weight in drag racing is a factor in HP to weight ratio. If you really want to go fast, the LS2 would be the top of the list choice, or a LS1/6 punched out to 427 by companies like MTI in Houston.

Ed Parks has done a great job in promoting and installing the 4.9 based engines. If you can talk him out of a kit, it is the way to go on that install. I have tried to always provide some of the key install hardware for the 3800's, but I just never got into the mounts thing.

Loyde

quote Originally posted by jstricker: I looked on CFOGi's web site last night and didn't see Dan's thread on the 4.9 install so I don't think he's actually got it up yet. I took few pictures of Dan's swap because he was snapping them, but I did take one of his exhaust since we finished that when he was gone. John Stricker

It's there, I put it in General Fiero Chat since it's not a kit/Rebody. I'll probably add more today if I have some time. My decision while helped by John's offer to help me was mainly the fact that I wanted good torque numbers and decent HP. Since I have no desire to race or drag my car the 4.9 seemed the best choice for me. I've had many people tell me a 3800 sc is better and the way to go, but I also need to keep in mind the budget and frankly a 3800 would be more expensive (plus there is a wife factor involved ). I was able to pick up my 4.9 engine with ECM for $150 (and hear it run before it was pulled) and really didn't want to pass that up. By getting the motor cheap we were able do a total rebuild of the engine and stay within my budget.

So it really just boils down to whatever you want is the best choice regardless of what other people say. Heck I'm happy as hell with what we've done.

Dan

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Oh, I know first hand. I drove Ed Park's 4.9 at Osage Beach last summer. When I got on it (briefly, or I'd be doing over 100 in no time), the speedo went up like it was the tachometer. It got up in a HURRY.

Actually I recall talking with PBJ after he started doing the 3800's and he felt the were much easier than the 4.9 becuase of how they fit. of course this is IIRC

quote Originally posted by jstricker: It all depends on what things one person considers "hard". For instance, if you can't weld and have no fabricating skills, then you're going to have a problem with any swap although it would be possible to do a 4.9L with NO welding whatsoever. I prefer to weld the mounts, but they could be bolted. If you find wiring hard and use a pre made wiring harness either like Ed's for the 4.9 or one from Loyde for the 3800 SC then there's really no difference in that regard. John Stricker

Great writeup, John.

How would you like to do another one?

Sure, call me or email me.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Great writeup, John. How would you like to do another one?

Bear if I were you I would go for the 4.9. You are not going to race the car, you just want to drive it around. Why the 4.9 over the 3800SC? For the sound and bragging rights of having a V8. The two engines are around the same power output, for what you want to do with it. So just pick up a 4.9 and have a reputable machine shop do a good rebuild on it. I would also use the stock 4 speed tranny that came with the V8 and have it refreshed. The black 88GT that am did the ZR1 Vette power steering for May get an engine transplant? and the 4.9 is one of the engines I am considering. For a high performance engine swap I would do the 3800SC. For obvious reasons, more after market and MUCH more power potential because of the huffer on top.

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Bear:

While I agree with what Rick said, how do you deny this

I have been reading, and I’m wondering about the use of a 4 speed. Although they are stock for the Fiero, the SMOG guys are going to be asking about the stock trans from the orig. vehicle to which the motor was pulled. I’m sure that Rick, being that he's had 2 Fiero motor swaps completed & tagged could help out in the info department for what needs to be completed for that ever important inspection. If I've read wrong, please excuse me.

Oh yea; there's all this talk about "sound" and what not - here's my thoughts:

If you can hear the motor, your not going fast enough -
You need to be going FASTER to make your passenger SCREAM LOUDER!
Listen to your inner "FAST"

Good Luck on your decision - either way it's going to knock your socks off.

--Allen

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[This message has been edited by mcaanda (edited 03-31-2006).]

I just wanted to add that on a 4.9 swap while replacing the water pump, do not forget the gasket for the housing that is behind the pump. When I got mine together last year I didn't do that gasket, when I put fluids in the car You can guess where I had a leak. It is so hard to get to that I droped the cradle to fix it, I'm not saying it can't be done I just wasn't that patient. Cheers Beers n Gears. Joe

quote Originally posted by mcaanda: I have been reading, and I’m wondering about the use of a 4 speed. Although they are stock for the Fiero, the SMOG guys are going to be asking about the stock trans from the orig. vehicle to which the motor was pulled. I’m sure that Rick, being that he's had 2 Fiero motor swaps completed & tagged could help out in the info department for what needs to be completed for that ever important inspection. If I've read wrong, please excuse me. --Allen [/COLOR]

We're talking about the 4 speed automatic (as opposed to the 3 speed auto, or any Fiero stick tranny).

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: Naturally I have some bias to the 3800sc. The engine is modern and still in production...Loyde

The 3800SC is a nice motor, and it is more modern than a 4.9, but it won't still be in production for long...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
GM North America's Four Point Turnaround Plan
GM Press Release 21nov2005

DETROIT, Nov. 21 /PRNewswire/ — Following is a brief update and summary of the other key elements of the GMNA turnaround plan beyond structural cost reductions.

STAMPING, SERVICE AND PARTS OPERATIONS AND POWERTRAIN FACILITIES:

Flint, Mich., North 3800 engine facility ("Factory 36") will cease production in 2008.

I would say a 4.9 all the way, nothing like that V-8 sound pulsating behind your head while whipping down the interstate. I have done 1.5(almost finished with my 5 speed swap) 3800SC installs and the second one was just a big disappointment to me. After all I put into it and all I get out of it is a motor that pulls to no end, a motor that will blow the tires off thru 3rd gear, a supercharger that just whines like it needs to be shot, enough torque to lend to some of the 4.9 guys so they know what if really feels like and the priceless look on ppls face when I go WOT on them. All that is just gloating over my swap and the 3800SC. I would say go with the 3800SC/65E being there are plenty of them, they are getting so much cheaper, the swap is more common now so the price of the swap is cheaper, tunning the motor to pass emmision. Not to mention the looks of the 3800SC compared to the 4.9, there is really no comparison when it comes to the looks on the install. If your going to do an engine swap, why not spend an extra few dollars and swap in something that has many MODs that can be added to it in the future, if you wanna more HP. This is just my opinion on the 4.9 VS the 3800SC.

Disclaimer: I have never ridden in a 4.9 powered Fiero so I have no clue what it pulls like, feels like, ect. Most of the above was just a late night burst of boredom and lack of sleep.

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: I would say a 4.9 all the way, nothing like that V-8 sound pulsating behind your head while whipping down the interstate. I have done 1.5(almost finished with my 5 speed swap) 3800SC installs and the second one was just a big disappointment to me. After all I put into it and all I get out of it is a motor that pulls to no end, a motor that will blow the tires off thru 3rd gear, a supercharger that just whines like it needs to be shot, enough torque to lend to some of the 4.9 guys so they know what if really feels like and the priceless look on ppls face when I go WOT on them. All that is just gloating over my swap and the 3800SC. I would say go with the 3800SC/65E being there are plenty of them, they are getting so much cheaper, the swap is more common now so the price of the swap is cheaper, tunning the motor to pass emmision. Not to mention the looks of the 3800SC compared to the 4.9, there is really no comparison when it comes to the looks on the install. If your going to do an engine swap, why not spend an extra few dollars and swap in something that has many MODs that can be added to it in the future, if you wanna more HP. This is just my opinion on the 4.9 VS the 3800SC. Disclaimer: I have never ridden in a 4.9 powered Fiero so I have no clue what it pulls like, feels like, ect. Most of the above was just a late night burst of boredom and lack of sleep.

The 4.9 was designed to hustle a big old DeVille around and be smooth and quiet doing it. It's got gobs of low end torque and runs incredibly smoothly. With this engine and it's matching auto transaxle in a Fiero it's very much a "point and click" kind of driving experience. Press the throttle, it sets you back in your seat and away it goes - and it keeps on pulling hard until you back off.

This V8 might not be the right engine for you if you're after the very most speed or acceleration - there's other engines that can be fit into a Fiero that will go even faster. But let's be realistic for a moment; if you're going to be daily driving your Fiero then the difference between a 13 second or 11 second quarter mile time is irrelevant. Either one would blow past almost anything else on the street.

What the 4.9 has that most of the other choices don't is a certain grace; none of that whirring and thrashing, just a smooth application of thrust when you want it. And it does make that wonderful V8 sound...

quote Originally posted by jscott1: The 3800SC is a nice motor, and it is more modern than a 4.9, but it won't still be in production for long...

Sad, but this is true.... One good thing however. They started this great engine in 97 and even at 250,000 units a year, that makes alot of engines available for several years to come. With the 3.8 being a cast block, the rebuilding is realistic too. That is one big disadvantange of the LSX series engines. You buy a bad one, theres no taking to the local machine shop for an overbore. Places like MTI still charge about $2500 to install the overbore cylinder kits.

Loyde

quote Originally posted by Whuffo: One more tip - buy the whole DeVille. That way you can drive it and make sure the drivetrain is in good shape - then as you swap it into the Fiero and discover bits and pieces that'd be nice to have you can just pull them off the DeVille. When you're all done, send the Caddy remains to the junkyard.

I have a friend that actually made money off his swap. He bought the whole car, pulled the engine, and sold parts off the car to make a profit. A win, win situation.

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quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: Disclaimer: I have never ridden in a 4.9 powered Fiero so I have no clue what it pulls like, feels like, ect. Most of the above was just a late night burst of boredom and lack of sleep.

Next time we are in the same timezone I'll let you drive mine. It's no 3800SC, but for what it is...(a cheap easy to swap V8) it get's the job done.

If you want to do endless mods and build an 11 sec drag car, the 4.9 is not for you. But for normal daily driving on the street, my 4.9 is quieter at idle than the 2.8 V6, but once you get on it, it wakes up and pulls like a train until you let off. You can't beat the bang for the buck with the 4.9 in my opinion.

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 03-31-2006).]

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: I would say a 4.9 all the way, nothing like that V-8 sound pulsating behind your head while whipping down the interstate. I have done 1.5(almost finished with my 5 speed swap) 3800SC installs and the second one was just a big disappointment to me. After all I put into it and all I get out of it is a motor that pulls to no end, a motor that will blow the tires off thru 3rd gear, a supercharger that just whines like it needs to be shot, enough torque to lend to some of the 4.9 guys so they know what if really feels like and the priceless look on ppls face when I go WOT on them. All that is just gloating over my swap and the 3800SC. I would say go with the 3800SC/65E being there are plenty of them, they are getting so much cheaper, the swap is more common now so the price of the swap is cheaper, tunning the motor to pass emmision. Not to mention the looks of the 3800SC compared to the 4.9, there is really no comparison when it comes to the looks on the install. If your going to do an engine swap, why not spend an extra few dollars and swap in something that has many MODs that can be added to it in the future, if you wanna more HP. This is just my opinion on the 4.9 VS the 3800SC. Disclaimer: I have never ridden in a 4.9 powered Fiero so I have no clue what it pulls like, feels like, ect. Most of the above was just a late night burst of boredom and lack of sleep.

This may all be very true, but he is not building a race car. And it needs to pass CA emissions standards so all the after market stuff don't count. The stock 3800SC has practically no advantage over the 4.9 V8 except that it "might" be more reliable, cheaper to rebuild and easier to find replacement parts for it. If you keep the two stock, it all comes down to looks sound and bragging rights (cool to say you have a V8 in your Fiero) I am not saying the 4.9 is better and I am not even saying the 4.9 is the better stock swap. I am just saying if Bear wants to do a daily driver that will turn heads just by sound alone, the V8 is the right choice. I have heard many 3800's and none of them sounded like a V8. They all have a distinctive high performance V6 sound. Then if you go the extra mile and dress up the engine you could even show people what makes all that noise. In my opinion the 4.9 is the ugliest gas V8 GM ever made. So a dress up is a MUST. I have seen some good looking 4.9's so it can be done right.