For either of these treatments, can the transmission be treated as a whole, or does it need to be disassembled? I currently have a disassembled Getrag with 1.02 4th and 3.94 final drive. When my Northstar is fully built, I will eventually be turning over 8,000 RPM, maybe over 8,500, although I probably won't have more than 360-375 ftlbs peak at the crank, and less than 300 off idle. What would be the better treatment? Are the two compatible? cumulative?
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above
Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future
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08:08 PM
PFF
System Bot
mattm Member
Posts: 1647 From: lancaster, pa Registered: Aug 2003
For either of these treatments, can the transmission be treated as a whole, or does it need to be disassembled? What would be the better treatment? Are the two compatible? cumulative?
Trans has to be dis-assembled.
From what I've heard, both Treatments offer the same improvement.
Yes, parts using the different processes would work together.
Cumulative: Wouldn't want to go there, parts could get so hard, they are brittle.
The only thing negative I've heard about the freeze process, is that you might have to re-machine some parts. Ultrasonic, has no effect on dimensions.
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08:27 PM
fieroturbo Member
Posts: 1085 From: Orefield, PA Registered: Jan 2003
This I gotta see. WCF's cintered iron disc seems the only street clutch that can withstand anything close to the 500HP my Ecotec will pump out, but maybe the treatment will change that.
------------------ Petty Officer Michael C Casaceli Patrol Squadron Ten, United States Navy 1988 Pontiac Fiero 2.5L, soon to be 2.2L ECOTEC TURBO (THE PROJECT HAS STARTED!!!) 1988 Oldsmobile Firenza 2.0L non-turbo (R.I.P.my beloved J-body. K.I.A. by a Ford) 1994 Chevy S-10 4.3, it's finally here, and it is gorgeous!
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08:36 PM
Jul 19th, 2004
crouyer Member
Posts: 135 From: Pocahontas, AR Registered: Apr 2003
does anyone know about the titanium impregnation? I saw it on chop cut rebuild or ccr on speed, they did it to the subaru boxer engine. Does anyone know where to get this done? It's supposed to make parts stronger and it doesn't effect dimensions.
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12:42 AM
California Kid Member
Posts: 9541 From: Metro Detroit Area, Michigan Registered: Jul 2001
Unless it's a new process, the only way I know of is "Plasma Arc" where they high temp flame it in, but I thought that required some machining.
That's going to improve surface wear, but I don't think it's going to improve the strenght of a Trans Case, or improve the core strenght of the gears, and shafts.
[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 07-19-2004).]
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01:15 AM
Doug Chase Member
Posts: 1487 From: Seattle area, Washington State, USA Registered: Sep 2001
$250 for the cryo of all internals and case $100 for the media blasting afterwards. Cedar Machine Service here in town (highly recommend this guy) I am trying to find a # as we speak, since the guy relocated since then.
------------------
EDIT > one of these days I am going to get around to fixing that sticky key on the keyboard. Until then Ice cream is banned from the key board area.
[This message has been edited by Tina (edited 07-19-2004).]
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06:59 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14275 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
I talked to Dean at 300* below.They charge $3.50 per pound to treat things.He said there is no need to do any machine work on the parts after they are treated.
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09:21 PM
PFF
System Bot
Tina Member
Posts: 2858 From: At an elevation of 8564 feet. Registered: Nov 2000
Not necessary, but highly recommended. When cryo treating used parts such as our gears with some wear. Over time they do develop small imperfections, one of them could become the starting point or the cause for another part to show wear. If all it takes is a $100 to eliminate or even just reduce the chance of such thing happen. I say... SOLD.
Tina
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09:52 PM
Tina Member
Posts: 2858 From: At an elevation of 8564 feet. Registered: Nov 2000
does anyone know about the titanium impregnation? I saw it on chop cut rebuild or ccr on speed, they did it to the subaru boxer engine. Does anyone know where to get this done? It's supposed to make parts stronger and it doesn't effect dimensions.
You may be referring to the Titanium Nitride coating process. The two most common are CVD ( chemical vapor deposition) and PVD (particle vapor deposition). They are both accomplished in a vacuum furnace but PVD is a lower temp process ( 425 deg. F) that will not substantially affect the temper of the core material being coated. The CVD process is done at much higher temps of 1100 degs F or more and for longer duration. The coating thickness is also less for PVD with typical thickness less than 3 microns.
The process slightly improves surface strength, but it's main benefit is improved lubricity and reduced wear. Both processes are common for use in cutting tools, but the PVD coatings are gaining in popularity for internal combustion / turbine engines and power transfer applications as well.
In addition to Titanium Nitride, PVD coatings using ceramic, diamond, and Cubic Boron Nitride are also used for wear or heat resistance.
It can be done by a host of companies who specailize in the process.
Kerry
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10:56 PM
Tina Member
Posts: 2858 From: At an elevation of 8564 feet. Registered: Nov 2000
You may be referring to the Titanium Nitride coating process. The two most common are CVD ( chemical vapor deposition) and PVD (particle vapor deposition). They are both accomplished in a vacuum furnace but PVD is a lower temp process ( 425 deg. F) that will not substantially affect the temper of the core material being coated. The CVD process is done at much higher temps of 1100 degs F or more and for longer duration. The coating thickness is also less for PVD with typical thickness less than 3 microns.
The process slightly improves surface strength, but it's main benefit is improved lubricity and reduced wear. Both processes are common for use in cutting tools, but the PVD coatings are gaining in popularity for internal combustion / turbine engines and power transfer applications as well.
In addition to Titanium Nitride, PVD coatings using ceramic, diamond, and Cubic Boron Nitride are also used for wear or heat resistance.
It can be done by a host of companies who specailize in the process.
Kerry
Holy cow
With all this knowledge stored up there ... I just got one question Do you remember where you left your car keys, or is there just plain no room for such idle... J/k
Very informative, thanks for posting
------------------
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11:02 PM
fierodog Member
Posts: 972 From: Mantua, Ohio, USA Registered: Jun 2004
thats all thats in a getrag????????? have a major question that none ever answers for me, Tina looks sounds like the woman with an answer. How hard is it to rebuild a getrag? Why are so many people scared to work on trannys? I am dying to learn so I can tear into mine! Any help would be great! thanks
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11:04 PM
fierodog Member
Posts: 972 From: Mantua, Ohio, USA Registered: Jun 2004
You may be referring to the Titanium Nitride coating process. The two most common are CVD ( chemical vapor deposition) and PVD (particle vapor deposition). They are both accomplished in a vacuum furnace but PVD is a lower temp process ( 425 deg. F) that will not substantially affect the temper of the core material being coated. The CVD process is done at much higher temps of 1100 degs F or more and for longer duration. The coating thickness is also less for PVD with typical thickness less than 3 microns.
The process slightly improves surface strength, but it's main benefit is improved lubricity and reduced wear. Both processes are common for use in cutting tools, but the PVD coatings are gaining in popularity for internal combustion / turbine engines and power transfer applications as well.
In addition to Titanium Nitride, PVD coatings using ceramic, diamond, and Cubic Boron Nitride are also used for wear or heat resistance.
It can be done by a host of companies who specailize in the process.
Kerry
you must be a machinist I just learned all that at my shop!! It is the way some machine tools are made.
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11:08 PM
Tina Member
Posts: 2858 From: At an elevation of 8564 feet. Registered: Nov 2000
How hard is it to rebuild a getrag? Why are so many people scared to work on trannys? I am dying to learn so I can tear into mine! Any help would be great! thanks
Well you need these things below as well. ( Alright, limited slip is optional)
Look at this this way ... how many of todays cars are actually a manual. Not too many. That itself reduces the pool of mechanics you can pick from. Who wan't to carry all these specialty tools. Parts are getting harder and harder to find. In the case of the Getrag some parts actually need to be heated up to install. The guy who ended up tearing mine apart and then putting it back together never done one before. Did another version of the Getrag though, not made to be rebuilt and made it work. (The one that's stamped with the "Do not disasemble, return to manufacturer, forget what this particular one is called now) Plus he came highly recommended from the local 6,7,8, second club people and was willing to give it a shot.
As to tips, Rodney does sell the manual on how to rebuilt one. Another would be http://www.drivetrain.com. They do offer a rebuilt service. Pretty reasonably too and are very helpful in locating the parts they don't stock needed for a rebuilt.
Tina
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11:34 PM
Jul 20th, 2004
Kerry Member
Posts: 233 From: Farmington, Missouri Registered: Mar 2002
With all this knowledge stored up there ... I just got one question Do you remember where you left your car keys, or is there just plain no room for such idle... J/k
Very informative, thanks for posting
Tina,
Finding my keys is not the problem... Walking into a room and forgetting what I came to get is the problem.
BTW, when I returned home from Topeka and played the drag race video I recorded from the tower, my wife wanted to know who the woman was next to me, with the sexy voice, doing the Fiero vs. Fiero narration..! I had to deal with "50 questions" for the rest of the night...!
Kerry
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12:32 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14275 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Tina, are you actually leaving Isuzus and getting on the Getrag wagon? Have you gotten a chance to drive it yet? I recall you saying that the Getrag didn't shift as nicely as the Isuzu. You may change your mind when you drive one that's freshly overhauled and full of GM Synchromesh fluid. There's a night and day difference between a fresh trans with the right lubricant and a high mileage trans.
What media did they use to blast things? I wouldn't have thought anybody would want to go anywhere near gear teeth with any kind of media blasting. Please let us know how it turns out.
I've been thinking for a while that I may have to disassemble one of those "do not disassemble" transmissions... (Getrag 284, BTW)
Fierodog: www.rodneydickman.com sells copies of the '88 Fiero manual section that deals with overhauling the Getrag. There are a LOT more pieces than are in Tina's picture. You'll also need a 10 ton press to disassemble. Inside you'll find scary stuff: all the torque of 3rd 4th and 5th gears is transmitted entirely by heat-shrink press fit... no splines at all. The manual calls for all sorts of specialty tools, some of which cost more than $700.
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above
Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future
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08:31 AM
Tina Member
Posts: 2858 From: At an elevation of 8564 feet. Registered: Nov 2000
Tina, are you actually leaving Isuzus and getting on the Getrag wagon?
Left the station and now on the Getrag wagon for the past months. I tried to stick to my orginal game plan to see how far a rebuilt Isuzu would take me, but when push came to shove and I needed to deliver a trans to the rebuilt guy, I could not find one. In the mean time just about every junkyard was trying to throw me Getrag.
quote
Have you gotten a chance to drive it yet? There's a night and day difference between a fresh trans with the right lubricant and a high mileage trans.
Yes, been driving it now and got about 2000 miles on it. (High way, city, some beating, but no 4000 clutch dumps yet.) The difference between a high milage Isuzu compared to a rebuilt Getrag both with fresh Synro mesh. Not much, but I am still messing around wih the shift cable linkage a bit since I am running the "Rodney products" with this 88 Beratta trans too.
quote
What media did they use...
Still trying to get in touch with the guy. Not only did he buy a new house, but relocated his Biz too.
We will see how it's going to hold up in the ultimate stress test. The Drag strip. Before this will happen though, I have to manage to get some kind of airflow on my back header. Using the new AFR head really puts the heat out in high RPM situations and in order to keep my headers in one piece I need to find a way to funnel air in this direction.
BTW Some interesting info here. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/gearoiltest.htm I know quite a few people playing around with moly, but seems somebody figured out how to keep it in circulation rather than sinking into the filter after a while.
Tina
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06:14 PM
PFF
System Bot
Tina Member
Posts: 2858 From: At an elevation of 8564 feet. Registered: Nov 2000
and back on topic, http://www.300below.com/ They have a couple of videos about cryo on their site.
Does anyone really know if this cryo does any good? The only info I've ever heard about it was from the people who are trying to sell you the treatment. Any independent studies (like consumer reports) on this subject?
-Tim
[This message has been edited by TimGully (edited 07-21-2004).]
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11:59 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14275 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
and back on topic, http://www.300below.com/ They have a couple of videos about cryo on their site.
Does anyone really know if this cryo does any good? The only info I've ever heard about it was from the people who are trying to sell you the treatment. Any independent studies (like consumer reports) on this subject?
-Tim
Crogenic treatments do work in many applications but may not be cost effective for the benefits achieved.
At the Kennametal cutting tool lab in Latrobe PA our personnel evaluated the benefit of crogenic treatments on Tungsten Carbide cutting inserts and on High Speed Steel Cobalt alloy end mills. On the HSS end mills, wear resistance improved an average of 28% over the same untreated endmills used as a control. On the Tungsten Carbide inserts, no wear benefit was observed, but the microstructure became more uniform. This uniformity provided an improvement in transverse rupture strength. In otherwords, the carbide inserts didn't last any longer when edge wear was the failure mode, but they did last longer when impact shock or thermal shock was the failure mode.
Bottom line: crogenic treatment can provide positive improvements in the mechanical properties of SOME materials. It is not a marketing ploy or "smoke and mirrors" engineering. However, the benefits may not always be cost justified for the benefit received. On some materials the improvement may be substantial while on other materials the improvement is only marginal.
The problem with the crogenic process is that it is time consuming, therefore relatively expensive for any large volume production.
To validate the process for a production part requires that a specific alloy, in a well defined application be tested to determine if the process is economically feasible. In many cases, a change in alloy or an alternate process can achieve a similar benefit to crogenic freezing, at lower cost. That's why you don't see it used to any great extent in large volume production, even though the process is effective.
However, in those rare or difficult applications where ulimate life or part performance are required, and where cost is not an overiding issue, the process is used to good effect.
For example, one of Boeing's vendors uses the crogenic freezing process on critical landing gear components of the F18 E/F fighter to stress relieve these parts. In this example, cost is not an issue. This reduction of internal stress, results in improved fatigue strength. The resultant extention of life cycles on these highly loaded components justifies the cost.
Kerry
[This message has been edited by Kerry (edited 07-22-2004).]
The thing with the manual transaxles is that it would cost a fortune to have new & stronger parts machined. If this Cryo treatment is for real, it may be well worth it.
-Tim
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09:20 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14275 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
I was thinking of the problem more along the lines of wear resistance and surface finish than torque...
The Northstar is probably not going to put out much more than 350 ftlbs, which isn't extreme for a Getrag, but it will be turning 8,000 or more RPM. I'm more concerned about the bearings and races (and even the gear teeth) at that surface speed than I am about the capacity of the transmission to handle the torque.
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above
Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future
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09:53 AM
Jul 27th, 2004
Will Member
Posts: 14275 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Heard lots about Cryogenic... does anyone have a website for ultrasonic treatment? I've tried google, but there are lots of other ultrasonic processes around (like ultrasonic welding). Is there a good phrase for which to search, like "ultrasonic stress relief" or "ultrasonic hardening"?
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above
Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future
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09:41 AM
Kento Member
Posts: 4218 From: Beautifull Winston Salem NC Registered: Jun 2003
So would anyone recommend this or any treatment for an Isuzu in a Stock 4.9 application to reduce the chances of Granade effect (yes I said Reduce cause I'm no dummy)
thats all thats in a getrag????????? have a major question that none ever answers for me, Tina looks sounds like the woman with an answer. How hard is it to rebuild a getrag? Why are so many people scared to work on trannys? I am dying to learn so I can tear into mine! Any help would be great! thanks
Sorry to but in, I had taken 2 trannys apart while still in school...and let me tell you...it was NOT easy....I thought it would be at first...i mean how hard is taking something apart and putting it back together...well it was...the manual wasnt AS bad...but the auto was a @#@%#...
(yes I said Reduce cause I'm no dummy)
