Hey, I was just wondering, what exactly do we have to do for prep on our plastic panels?

I imagine we wont be able to use standard degreaser? Can anyone outline exactly step by step for base/clear from after sanding down to primer?

You can treat it just like steel. Use a standard degreaser, sand/scuff everything with 320 or 400 grit paper, do any repairs and prime if necessary, and sand your primer smooth with 320 again. Then you can degrease again, remask the car, and spray!

Mark

Here are some pictures as I did mine. I did the prep work and had a friend shoot it for me.

http://webserv.absolute-net.com/jgunsett/Last.html

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Boys and Their Toys

If it is bare plastic use a plastic adihsion sp? promoter before you prime/paint bare plastic (very important).

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take ALL the clearcoat off... dont leave patches, they can somtimes show even through primer and paint... and if the old clearcaot starts to peel under your new paint, your new paint will go with it...

In answer to a few above. There is no need for any kind of flex agent or adhesion promoter, you just use the same paint and primers you use on any other car. Those are for doing interior painting like dash and door panels.

IF you have clearcoat peeling or turning white/milky, you do need to sand it completely off of that panel. If the clearcoat is ok on the whole car or other panels, its fine just to scuff sand it.

Ive been in the auto painting business since 1965, in my own shop since 76. I mostly agree with Firefox, who is also professional painter, because most of the time hes right

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http://my.core.com/~ferrari1/MyPhotos
http://groups.msn.com/RogersCarPhotos

Ok, so correct me if I am wrong, but I should sand to primer, put a 2k primer overtop, then paint as normal?
THanks guys

You just need to sand down to good surface which will probably be the basecoat if your clear is bad. No need to sand it down to primer. Im not sure what you mean by 2k primer. All that you need to primer with regular primer/surfacer is any panel you take all the clear off of, any bodywork spots, or any bare plastic spots. Some will primer the whole car, but thats really not necessary.

+ for you rogergarrison for being very informative you should charge for sharing all your knowledge.

I dont want to be rude, and thank you for the answer, but you have ran your own paint shop for 28 years and you don't know what a 2k primer is? Maybe it is a newer term, but in the research I have done, 2k primer has come up quite often. It is a highbuild primer / surfacer. I have also read countless times, that you need to remove all of the clearcoat. I know that I could just rough the clear if I wanted a garage paint job, but I am looking for showroom quality paint job.

I am confused, firefox has said to paint it just as you paint steel, and you roger said you agree with him, but then you say all I need to do is sand down to a good surface. I have always been told that when redoing a paint job on a steel car you should use a degreaser, sand to steel, self etching primer, 2k primer, wet sand any imperfections, automotive primer, base, intercoat clear (HOK paint) then any graphics as far as airbrushing goes, then clear coat. But if I were to use that, and sand down to bare panels, I would sand parts of the panels away, which I dont want to do. Not to mention, can I use a self etching primer on the fiero polymer panels? I dont really want to paint overtop of a 17 year old paint job that may or may not begin to flake in a few years. Especially seeing as how my clearcoat has started to crack and come off quite a bit.

Once again, I am not trying to be rude, just trying to find out for sure. I don't want to spend the money for my HOK paint, have all teh custom airbrushing done, just to see it peel, or show imperfections.

And I know you could say that if I need to ask these questions with having no experience, then I also wont be getting a showroom paint job, and should learn waht I am doing before I worry about a showroom paint job.. well I would agree with you, but I am not the one doing the painting. The painter is an airbrush artist who has just never painted on to the polymer panels of a fiero before, and I just wanted to hear from some people that have a lot of experience with Fiero panels.

And roger, I think it was you who almost a year ago now posted the pictures of the real dark purple GT with teh coupe nose? As far as I can remember, and from what I could tell from teh pictures, that was an amazing paint job, so I don't doubt you at all. I just want to be postive when I am dealing with this amount of money.

Thanks guys

I assume 2K primer means a 2 part catalyst primer. I dont ever use it myself. Ive only used it 2 times, and that was to seal a questionable paint job I was repainting. Etching primer is only needed on metal body cars that are stripped to bare metal. Ive never seen the need to strip paint off unnecessarily. Unless its been redone several times there is no reason. Whats on there has been on it for 20 years and didnt come off, especially if its the original paint. Just getting off the clearcoat that is bad is all you really need to do. A though cleaning with wax/grease remover and soap and water is always a given, usually at several differnet stages. I dont even bother mentioning it. You will see that no 2 painters will ever totally agree on anything, I do what works for me. A good example is disassembly. Some will only paint a car totally apart, but I dont ever do that except for very high dollar paint jobs. Airbrushing over the finish of a Fiero is no different than another car. I done airbrushed murals on van conversions for over 10 years at a local manufacturer. A buildup of too much stuff will not be good.

assuming you have a stock OEM finish with peeling clearcoat, heres what id do.
wash with strong soap and water, wipe down with wax/grease remover. remove any parts your taking off. do any body repairs needed. DA sand all the panels that have peeling clearcoat with #180 paper at least to the basecoat color, if its bad or pitted, sand it as necessary. dry sand all the rest with #400 open coat sandpaper. use a small pad or DA to sand any defects like chips, cracks, scratches. Go over every nook and cranny with maroon scotchbrite pad.Primer all places you have DAd or are bare plastic. Primer all of the car if you wish. I use plain laquer Primer/Surfacer myself. Some will use acrylic primer, or 2 part primer. sand that all by hand with #400 open coat again, followed by scotchbrite. On large flat areas like hood and roof, I DA primer with #360 just to speed it up. Then wash down again with wax and grease cleaner, wet towel in one hand and dry as you go. Blow thoughly, tack it off and spray 2-3 basecolor coats depending on how well it covers. Then follow with 2-3 coats of clearcoat. Option: if your doing airbrush work, i wetsand that panel with #400-#600 followed by the airbrushing. Then 2-3 coats more of clear over just those panels. For durability, I wouldnt put more clear on the rest. after a couple of days air drying, you can wetsand all the clearcoat with #1200 or finer and buff with compound. I use 3M SuperDuty, then Perfect II medium, then 3M swirl mark remover. That will give you a much better than showroom finish, it will be smoother than the glass windshield and will last a long time. So many people brag about 20 coats of clear - thats going to crack sooner or later in use. You only see the top layer, and if its smooth and shiny enough, it wont get any better than 2 or 3 coats and yours will last much longer.

Remember that painting involves LOTS of different specialized instructions and posting everything would make a book (or several volumes ..) If you do a forum search you will find enough reading for a weekend. I try to be general in answers, but will answer a specific question with a specific answer with how 'I' do whatever your asking.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 02-28-2004).]

Ok, cool thanks. That answers most of it. I guess the only question left is what about the degreaser. I haven't looked around that much, but there also arent too many stores around here... but I haven't seen a degreaser that doesnt say "do not use on platics" Could you recommend a brand? or know of the exact chemical to use? Or does it just mean dont use directly on plastic, and it should be ok to use as long as I dont sand past the basecoat?

I added a lot more to my post above. You can get that at any automotive paint store, any brand is fine. Wax and grease remover will not hurt anything you wash and dry with it except vinyl or leather upholstery. Just wet a paper towel and wipe panel and keep a dry paper towell in other hand to dry it as you do. Dont just let it set wet. It will take off tar and other contaminant as well. I use paper towells because their virgin. Rags, even cleaned have chemicals in them that can get onto the surface. When sanding make sure your hands are very clean with good soap and no kind of lotion, Even fingerprints/palmprints will affect the paint. I like to keep my hands dusty when sanding so no skin grease gets transferred.

Thanks Roger! That's awesome.. exactly what I needed know, and even some I wouldnt have though of! Thanks again! SOrry for being such a pain in the a**

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: because most of the time hes right

Thanks, Roger......Everyone has their own style and methods, and with different products available there are certainly different ways of doing things. The way that I do things is only one way of doing things, and Roger and I do things pretty much the same way. There are certainly other ways.

Mark

Hey all, I'm soups brother, the guy doing the painting.

quote Originally posted by Firefox: First, the 2k primer is a heavy primer/surfacer that is used when your body work sucks. I've used it, and I'd rather do my body work correctly instead of using that stuff, which is very expensive. It's made by PPG, if I remember correctly, and Roger doesn't use PPG so he doesn't see the PPG designations for their products.

2k primer is a medium to high solids primer that is commonly used by almost any professional painter. It's not manufacturer specific, every paint manufacturer makes it. It's catylized, relying on a chemical reaction to cure rather than evaporation of solvents. It doesn't apply to primer only, it can refer to any coating that relies on a chemical reaction to cure. Usually though, '2k primer' refers to catylized urethane with good filling properties, sands well, and needs undercoating. To say it's only used to hide bad body work is, well, to put it nicely "uneducated".

quote Originally posted by Firefox: You don't need to remove the old clearcoat when you sand unless you need to. My reference to painting a steel car did not mean to remove the old paint and primer, just that your prep is the same for the Fiero as it would be for a regular car. When Roger said to sand to a good surface, that means that you sand off any paint that is not sticking to the car properly....like a peeling clear coat. If you have a good foundation, which could be just color or color/clear, yuo can stop there. It's always better to paint over old good paint than to remove it all and start with primer on steel. Spray a sealer on the old finish and spray your new paint. Sand to steel (or plastic or fiberglass) for your body work, feather it into the surrounding panel, and prime and sand.

"always better to paint over old paint than start over on steel"? I don't want to start an argument, but NO NO NO NO NO NO NO. You trust that factory job won't chip or flake off next year? You know theres no rust under waiting to bubble in 6 months? You bought it brand new, so you know someone didn't just do some body work and touch ups incorrectly that are going to fall apart? Do you know 5 guys before you didn't think the same way, and theres an inch of material already? So many reasons why you're dead wrong. In every case, it's better to start over with a fresh substrate, no matter what it is. ALWAYS. The only reason it wouldn't be is when you want to save time and materials, which in many (most) cases you would want to, because the benifits outweigh the risks. If you're talking quality above all, then you strip to substrate, period. Many top quality custom painters will refuse to touch a job unless they strip it bare, they will flat out refuse to pin their rep on the hope that someone elses paint job will hold up, no matter how much you're paying.

Roger: You sound knowledgeable although I would never paint with your method (primer I mean). I think anyone would be pretty hard pressed to argue the benifits of lacquer over 2k primer in terms of quality, and quality is what I'm concerned with. Obviously it has other benifits (and some pretty good ones), like a lower price, non-isocyanate, quicker cure time, more forgiving to mix, etc, etc, etc. I much prefer to spray lacquer, I use it as a guide coat, but when you're looking for the best primer you can put on your car then it's not lacquer by a long shot.

I've never painted enduroflex, or whatever these panels are made of, so I'm still wondering what to use to get the best adhesion on the bare panel, assuming price and ease of application are no object. You say you put lacquer over the bare panel, have you ever had loss of adhesion doing that? I'm going to do my own tests but I'm still interested in other people's experience primering the bare panels. Given that stripping this car is only a few hours work with the right tools, and the fact that I'm the painter, Soup's car is going to be stripped bare. I'm not going to rely on a 17 year old paint job that I know has a factory defect on at least 1 layer to keep my hundred hours of artwork from flying off the hood.

I have a custom and production shop. Ive done laquer primed show cars that still look great 15 years later. I need to be able to just get a primer gun and respray a spot many times during a day. I need it to dry in minutes, not hours. I dont have time to mix catalyzed primer 10 times a day, not to mention all the waste throwing whats left over away every few hours. I agree with Firefox that a good original factory job is the best to paint over, its stayed on for 20 years now, its not going to fall off next year. There are quite a few ways to accomplish a paint job, no one way is the only way, every painter has their method. Just do what works for you. Mines worked for me for 40 years and I have a house full of show trophies to back me up. Always stripping to bare body is generally reserved for guys who are willing to spend $20,000 to paint their $80,000 collector car. Fieros usually dont fall in that catagory

*Prep it how your painter wants you to is my best advice.

I missed one of your points. If you have a new virgin plastic panel, not a urathane one, It can be painted with NO primer at all. I have done that with no problems at all. One example- a local grooup of entertainment parks have these SMC bodied go karts for rides. I painted over 50 of them in the last 10 years to resemble Nascar race cars. All are multiple colors of basecoat/clearcoat paint over sanded, unprimed plastic. This was to keep their costs to a minimum each. There outdoors nearly year round, powerwashed several times a week, ran into wall and each other. Yes there is a lot of scuffs and chips, but not one of them has shown any signs of peeling/ defective paint, just damage from collisions. Only ones Ive had to redo were ones that had major broken panels. Sanding those with a DA during repair, the paint even feathered out nicely and those repaired spots were primered with laquer primer. The point that Firefox was trying to make I think, is that 2 part, high build primer, is usually used to put a thick coat, all at once over body work. That way the thickness is sufficient to block it smooth without having to keep repriming several times. I prefer to put several thin primer coats on, block, reprime, block as many times as necessary untill i feel its done.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 03-10-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Aberrant: Hey all, I'm soups brother, the guy doing the painting..... So many reasons why you're dead wrong....... I've never painted enduroflex, or whatever these panels are made of, so I'm still wondering what to use to get the best adhesion on the bare panel, assuming price and ease of application are no object.

I guess Roger and I don't know what the hell we are talking about, do we? Dead wrong? Listen up, sparky, we've been doing this for years, and there are different beliefs in using the original paint as a base for the new paint job. If you have an original paint job in good condition, it's better than primer over steel or plastic. You don't know that? Uneducated? Part of the training process in the painting field is being able to spot a good finish. Don't come in here and tell us we don't know what we are talking about. We HAVE painted Fieros before and know what works, but apparently we don't know what we are talking about, do we?

As for 2K primer, I use an epoxy primer, but not as a thick primer/surfacer. I'll pull sanding scratches out with it, but that's about it. If you are using a heavy primer/surfacer in place of good body work, you aren't going to touch MY car. Uneducated? Learn how to do proper body work.

As for your posting on here, please be a little more respectful. You don't want to start an arguement? Your manners suck. You have a difference of opinion? That's fine. Don't come on here and act like king sh*t and we don't know what we are talking about. But.....I guess you don't need us, do you?

Why did Soup even ask us for any assistance with a know-it-all brother who paints?

Mark

Very pissed.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: In answer to a few above. There is no need for any kind of flex agent or adhesion promoter, you just use the same paint and primers you use on any other car.

So you're saying if you had a new GM bumper. That was bare plastic. Urathane whatever. Or bare patches on a fiero fender. You would not use a plastic adhesion promoter. Then why dose Du pont, PPG, and most other paint companys recomend it. I have seen first hand what happens to a bare bumper. Not sparyed with an adhesion promoter before sealer and it's not pretty. Even most primers need a adhesion promoter, The only one that i've used that dosen't is the RM UV primer. What brand of paint do you use???? I would honsetly like to know cause if it is Du pont (which are shop uses) It be nice to know there paint reps are full of **** .

I haven't been in a shop as long as Roger and I will be the first to admit that I don't know everything, but in 19 years I've learned a little too. The guy I work with is the instructor at a local trade school so we get to have access to all the latest materials and supplies, mostly PPG and Dupont because there is no longer a R-M (BASF) jobber around here.
When we start a project, it is usually steam cleaned with a strong detergent first. This is to remove most of the road film, wax and tar. Most of the trim is then removed and the car is solvent cleaned. Then we DA (orbital sand) the whole car with 400 grit. The reason for this is to knock the gloss of the finish to make for easier water sanding later. When you use the DA correctly, it lays flat against the surface and any small dings will show up because they are still shiny. Then all body work is done next. If the finish is in good condition, there is no need to take it down past the clear or base coat. When it comes time to primer, we mostly use lacquer based primer for the reason Roger named- it might sit in the gun for a day or two and the activated primers will dry in the gun and are next to impossible to remove. About the only time we use the urethane primer is when the finish on the vehicle reacts to the lacquer thinner in the primer- some aftermarket paints will wrinkle when the primer hits them and the solvents in the urethane primer are milder. The problems I have with the urethane primer is the amount of time it takes to dry and when it is dry, it is like trying to sand the concrete! The stuff just won't cut and I usually block it with 180 grit and reprime it with regular lacquer so that it can be wet sanded easily. When the body work is done, the car is wet sanded with 400 or 600 grit and pressure washed again to get the filler dust out of all the cracks and crevices. If we are painting new, unprimed flexible parts (bumper covers, etc...) they are washed, wet sanded, sprayed with an adhesion promoter and then painted like the rest of the car. If the flexible panels already have a factory primer, then they do not get the adhesion promoter. When it comes time to paint, we use a single stage sealer over the repaired areas. If the color is going to be changed, then the whole car gets sealer but there is no need in covering good color with sealer if you are going to spray the same color right back over the top of it unless the finish is subject to a reaction with the solvents in the base coat. That's about it- other than finishing up

The majority of new bumpers I get, most are not plastic, there urathane btw, come delivered in black water base primer from the manufacturer and all they require is scuffing and painting per the printed label attached to them. Plastic ones like on BMWs are not urathane and it CAN be just painted with no primer, sealer, adhesion chemical or other prep other than lightly sanding per service bulletin from BMW. I will use adhesion promoter on 'soft' interior painted parts like dash or armrests only. I will use it on rare occasion I get a new bumper in the bare yellow urathane.. I do lightly prime new plastic bumpers as necessary anyway to clean up any minor scratches or blemishes before i paint them.

As for salesmen recommending adhesion promoters, for the most part there just pushing more products on you so they make more money. It also gives them 'and easy out' IF you a problem with the paint later. You dont properly prepare the panel, it peels, and you gripe at the paint rep. "did you put on adhesion promoter?" "No". "sorry, not our fault then".

Same salesmen will try to sell you Flex Agent. It hasnt been needed for 20 years if not more. BUT, they have a million cans of it they have to get rid of somehow

Most paint 'salesmen' are just that, selling you whatever they can get you to buy. The majority of them Ive met have never even held a paint gun in their life except to show it to a potential buyer. All they know is what the Manufacturers want them to tell you.

And finally, no you do not use promoter under primer , except like where your making a tear repair, and you have ground down into the urathane. And you CANNOT use flex in primer / surfacer at all.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 03-10-2004).]

Excellent information everyone. Thanks a ton.

Sour

P.S. Keep it coming!

Firefox: You need to relax before you have a heart attack. A difference of opinion isn't lack of respect, getting pissed because someone says your wrong is what 3rd graders do. My point is that when you paint over an existing finish you're trusting your new paint job to 2 things - that the existing finish was properly applied and won't come off, and that there isn't any hidden damage that is about to ruin the paint such as rust. For most paint jobs it's no big deal, if it lasts 20 years chances are it'll last another 20, if it's not metal panels you don't need to worry about rust. Because of that, fiero panels are probably safer to repaint over a factory finish. If you want to be 100% certain that the paint won't fail, then you need to strip it. How can you be 100% certain about a finish that you don't know when or how it was applied? Theres just so many things that could go wrong... maybe somebody did a spot repair incorrectly and theres a fist sized area on the hood that will start chipping after a year on the highway... all I'm saying is that if you're looking for a job that you can be 100% sure is top quality all around then you have to strip it. To do anything else will hold up fine 99% of the time, but eventually you will get caught with something under the paint that you can't see that will cause problems. For 99% of people lacquer over factory finish works great, however it's not for me because I want to be 100% certain that every job I do is top quality and will never fail.

Pretty easy to say that others do lousy body work that they need to use a filling primer for when you use epoxy. It's a totally different system, the fact that you don't sand your primer isn't because of your immense skill in body work, it's because epoxy sands like crap so you have to spend more time on the body work. Both ways have benifits, use whatever you prefer.

Roger: I'll be the first to admit lacquer is much easier to mix, spray, cure, and clean up. My point is that catylized primer is much stronger and has a much better bond with what's underneath it, due to the fact that there is a chemical reaction that cures the paint. Try spraying lacquer and 2k over a test panel, side by side. Something fairly smooth so neither one can bite as well as it should. Now score it with an xacto in a crosshatch pattern creating tiny squares of paint between your lines. Put some masking tape over it and really scrape it down hard, then lift it straight up by pulling both ends up at the same time. Now count the missing squares from each primer. I've done this on several surfaces, the lacquer loses every time. That being said, I agree with you that lacquer over a factory finish is going to hold just fine if you do prep right. However there's a reason that pro shops use 2k when it's more dangerous, expensive, harder to apply, longer to cure, etc. There obviously has to be some benifits given how much easier lacquer is to work with, or everyone would use lacquer. I believe that lacquer can also hold moisture and 2k can''t.

Primer has nothing to do with show finishes... you can win trophies and have your paint flake off next week. Thats not a jab, I saw some of your cars and they look great... given your experience you have something that you know works and you do great work with it, so keep doing great work. Thanks for replying, I always want to hear how other painters work even if our methods differ.

And thats the last I'll say on lacquer or stripping factory finishes since I don't want a pissing contest.

quote Originally posted by Aberrant: ... And thats the last I'll say on lacquer or stripping factory finishes since I don't want a pissing contest.

It is never advisable to get into a pissing contest with a skunk! As a casual observer, you did come across as quite rude and confrontational. Agreeably, opinions are like armpits... everyone has a couple; however, Firefox and Roger seemed to be sincere, not overly opinionated, in their explanations. I guess my curiosity is the same as Firefox's... why didn't you just instruct your brother exactly how YOU wanted it done? It certainly seems that's the way it will be done anyway?

Only primer you need for a Ford

Just trying to lighten everyone up.
I am sure that there are several ways to do most anything, doesn’t prove one is wrong or right.
Glad that we have such knowledgeable people willing to share different ways to do things.

quote Originally posted by Aberrant: Firefox: You need to relax before you have a heart attack. A difference of opinion isn't lack of respect, getting pissed because someone says your wrong is what 3rd graders do.

I'm nice and relaxed. Your 'opinion' is certainly welcome, but telling me that I'm "uneducated" isn't designed to make me look respectable, and that's why I'm pissed. Roger and I spend a lot of time trying to help the folks on here with their projects, and even though Roger and I have different methods in some areas, I have great respect for him because I know how hard it is to paint a car and he does great work. I've been painting for over 25 years, and I don't have cars coming back because the paint doesn't stick to it.

quote Originally posted by Aberrant: My point is that when you paint over an existing finish you're trusting your new paint job to 2 things - that the existing finish was properly applied and won't come off, and that there isn't any hidden damage that is about to ruin the paint such as rust. For most paint jobs it's no big deal, if it lasts 20 years chances are it'll last another 20, if it's not metal panels you don't need to worry about rust. Because of that, fiero panels are probably safer to repaint over a factory finish. If you want to be 100% certain that the paint won't fail, then you need to strip it. How can you be 100% certain about a finish that you don't know when or how it was applied?

Part of being "educated" is knowing when you can paint over an old surface. That's part of the body business. You can't strip every car you paint because the customer isn't going to pay for it. As for painting over bare steel, it's still better to paint over a PROPERLY prepared GOOD finish that to paint over bare steel with primer.

quote Originally posted by Aberrant: Pretty easy to say that others do lousy body work that they need to use a filling primer for when you use epoxy. It's a totally different system, the fact that you don't sand your primer isn't because of your immense skill in body work, it's because epoxy sands like crap so you have to spend more time on the body work. Both ways have benifits, use whatever you prefer.

Why do you use a primer surfacer? Because the surface isn't perfectly smooth and you use the primer to help smooth out the imperfections. I don't use much in the way of primer/surfacers because I make sure my panels are smooth. I use an epoxy primer as a sealer because it doesn't shrink over time and sanding scratches won't reappear down the road.

quote Originally posted by Aberrant: Primer has nothing to do with show finishes... you can win trophies and have your paint flake off next week. Thats not a jab, I saw some of your cars and they look great... given your experience you have something that you know works and you do great work with it, so keep doing great work. Thanks for replying, I always want to hear how other painters work even if our methods differ. And thats the last I'll say on lacquer or stripping factory finishes since I don't want a pissing contest.

So we keep doing great work? But.....I thought I was "uneducated"? Roger doesn't use the right primer and adhesion promoter? We both paint over old surfaces and in your own words "NO NO NO NO NO NO NO." But you don't want to start an arguement.

As I said before, you're welcome to come here and offer your opinion, but don't come here and tell us we suck. We know what we are doing, and we're going to continue to help out our friends as best we can. We are certainly willing to learn, and if you want to offer some useful information, by all means pass it along.

Just don't be rude doing it.

Mark-looking for an apology

They never should have messed with what isnt broken. Go to a junkyard that may have some 50s cars. A lot of that no good laquer paint and primer is still in good shape with a quick rubout. I quarantee none of the 90s cars will be in near that shape in 40 years. I painted my Mercedes in 1987 with laquer primer and its still a show winner anywhere it goes. Painted a friends 63 Corvette back in early 80s and its still a winner at Bloomington Gold every time he shows it. Primer and paint are both laquer. Ill not keep harping on this. Like said already, you can do it any number of ways. All the graphics/ murals I did on vans for the conversion shop, from 73-85 were all done in laquer and I did 3-5 a week for the whole time. Never had one peeling. Only ones I ever had a problem with at all were 2 that were done in early urathane. Im done. Hope your job turns out to your expectations. Just trying to save you both some time. If you want to spend a 1,000 hours doing a paint job, Im happy for you.

LOL Firefox. Ya, I dont get why he asked in the first place myself. I just kept running it on myself, so others would have all the info too. They can all make their own decisions. A lot of the new painters go to vocational school, where all you really learn is the textbook part. Experience out in the real world is what really counts. A few people I know that run dealers/ independent shops wont even hire someone out of vocational body/ paint school. They start them as tapers and sanders anyway for the same pay rate. I had one come in one day last summer and ask if he could have a job, and he was ' willing' to start for $18 @ hour. Laughed my ass off at that and informed him I own the business, been here for years and I only take home about $20 @ hour. BTW, i notice my rating went from 224 to 220 so quit whining......

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 03-10-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Deezlfitr: It is never advisable to get into a pissing contest with a skunk! As a casual observer, you did come across as quite rude and confrontational. Agreeably, opinions are like armpits... everyone has a couple; however, Firefox and Roger seemed to be sincere, not overly opinionated, in their explanations. I guess my curiosity is the same as Firefox's... why didn't you just instruct your brother exactly how YOU wanted it done? It certainly seems that's the way it will be done anyway?

Maybe I came off rude, I'm a rude person and that's what rude people do. Keep in mind that written words don't include gestures, intonation, and expressions, so I don't know how to be 'nice' without putting dorky smileys at the end of every sentence Besides, I think the only rude part is when I called him uneducated, but thinking that 2k primer is a PPG product to hide bad body work is uneducated.

To answer your curiosity I was hoping to hear some people's experience with painting bare panels. Hearing a bit about how roger works was a bonus, and all the basic info on paint and prep here for the newbies gives me a warm fuzzy feeling deep in my chest.

quote Originally posted by Aberrant: thinking that 2k primer is a PPG product to hide bad body work is uneducated.

I wasn't sure if it was a PPG product, as I stated above, but heavy primer/surfacer is designed to help deal with an uneven surface, hence rough bodywork. What part don't you understand?

You still owe me an apology.

Mark

quote Originally posted by Firefox: You still owe me an apology.

I'm sorry. Can I have a hug?

Great info guy's!

Thanks.

quote Originally posted by Firefox: Hey, Roger.....how come no one ever gives me a + for helping???

I just did... Then scrolled down and saw you post this... HAHA!!

Uneducated...?? LMMFAO!! NOT!!!

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AKA. "SmoothGT"....
Custom Built W I D E BODY~GT!!

"I would rather be hatefully remembered, then just forgotten!!"

ok, can you guys tell me why, when after i JUST got my nose painted that it started spidering on me and then when i had a meeting w/ a guard rail, it shattered like glass?

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- Why you stuck up, half-witted, scruffy looking, NERF HERDER!!!
- Who's scruffy lookin'?

Arty: a.k.a. FestYboy or Fieroman87
'87 GT 5 spd.
'88 Festiva 5 spd.
Yahoo messanger: AMAbonus
AIM: FestYboy88L

quote Originally posted by fieroman87: ok, can you guys tell me why, when after i JUST got my nose painted that it started spidering on me and then when i had a meeting w/ a guard rail, it shattered like glass?

My first thought for the spider cracking and shattering was that the paint used for the cover was acrylic enamel. Enamel will flex a bit, but with a hard bend, it will shatter. With acrylic urethane, you can paint any flexible part you can find and it won't crack at all.

Two examples. I painted the rear bumper filler panels on my '86 Cutlass Supreme, and when they were dry, actually twisted them as far as I could. No cracking at all. Nothing. I also had painted a front bumper cover for a Dodge Omni 024 (it's been a while), which has the grill molded into the cover (and is VERY flexible), and that too never cracked.

One of my neighbors had an early 80's Firebird painted black in enamel, and if you pushed at all on the rubber fillr between the rear bumper and the rear end panel, the paint just cracked. No flex at all.

I never use acrylic enamel, but there are many places that do use it and it has it's place. I use acrylic urethane (PPG Deltron). Enamel has much less flex than urethane, but still has a good amount of 'give' to it.

It's possible that the paint never adhered to the primer, and instead of flexing, it just let go. It might not be a paint problem at all. Without actually looking at it, I really wouldn't be sure.

Sorry for being so vague.

Mark

thanks Mark, i'll keep that in mind when i get it repainted.

------------------
- Why you stuck up, half-witted, scruffy looking, NERF HERDER!!!
- Who's scruffy lookin'?

Arty: a.k.a. FestYboy or Fieroman87
'87 GT 5 spd.
'88 Festiva 5 spd.
Yahoo messanger: AMAbonus
AIM: FestYboy88L

Not running into things will do wonders for saving your paint...........LOL. If you ran into a guard rail, spider cracks are prob the least of the problem