Ok, I'm not trying to start a political discussion here;
But these prices are going to force all of us into hybrid gas/electric swaps or diesel swaps.
What did you pay for gas today?

$1.64 for 89 octane 10% Ethanol.

Just like last week.

And the week before that.

John Stricker

Might try living in Europe some place.
I hear that gas prices are at least double if not tripple of what we pay in the states.
Anyone across the big water (east or west) have some input on this one?

Excuse my rant here but,

"Uncle Bush!!!" You would think the blame could be put where it belongs, here. Squarely on democrat tree huggers who consistantly vote NIMBY (not in my back yeard). They will not allow any drilling for our vast reserves in west coast (Calif/Wash)water, Alaskan ANWR, off the eastern sea board (and yes, even off the coast of Republican held Florida). These so called environmentalists also haven't allowed a new refinery to be built in the last 15 years - always in the name of "environmental protection".

Remember Al Gore"s much ballyhooed book "Earth in the Balance" where he called for gas prices to be $4 to $5.00 per gallon. That makes "Bush's" $1.64/gal seem cheap.

So, next time you want ot blame uncle Bush, call any DIMocrat Senator or Congress critter and tell them to start drilling for the vast reserves of oil available to Americans all 'round the U.S. and stop buying from the price setting OPEC countries.

If we had our own oil fields going fully, the OPEC countries would start pricing their oil at market driven prices or go out of business and oil would likely be less than $15.00 a barrel instead of the recent $37.00/bbl.

I heard on news that places in calif are now $2.18 @ gal.

I heard some crap head on the TV talking about a country wide health plan for IRAQ.
Why are we spending so much money in a country that is one of the wealthiest Oil producers?
Our solders are dieing over there, people are starving here. Its getting harder and harder for most people to save anything. Sure I can afford to pay more for gas but I am one of the fortunate that have a good job.
But for how long. As the oil prices go up so will every thing that depends on them. Electricity, shipping, even food.
Something needs done but you don’t know who your voting for till they are actually in office and making good on campaign promises.
I am just glad I don’t have the Camaro any more, 10 miles to the gallon would be killing be.

$1.76 / gal - 93 octane.

$1.79/gal for the cheap ass swill.

..and when they finally get the chance to drill here stateside, they'll sell it to Europe and Japan because the profits will be bigger!

Electric hybrids just mean that in 10 years time they'll be bitchin' about the hazardous waste produced from these cars! Batteries are n-a-s-t-y things.

Let's just fulfill our destiny and 8-ball this planet like we're supposed to...

.this isnt politically correct here....3:00 a gallon aviation fuel for me...be glad our cars dont run on that or milk.
REd

Doesn't this belong in the O/T area?

Rather than make it political I think you should look at the record profits that the oil companies had last year when they have been peaked at capacity on production for some time. If their profits more than doubled and they are not refining anymore then where did all the profit come from?

Wasn't there a congressional investigation that was looming early last year?

Kinda went away didn't it? Price fixing? I even find that on a local level. In our neck of the woods Marathon owns all of the Speedway stations and they set the price so right before the weekend our gas goes up except there is a bright spot. One local retailer an independently owned station is trying to keep it down and surprisingly the others even though they jack it up at first find that the little guy did not so they lower their price back down.

Let's face it the oil companies are gouging us because there is no competition and they are fixing prices justy like OPEC so were screwed even if they open up our vast western reserves but how would you like to pay 1.79 a litre for gas like Europeans do?

As long as no great price hike comes along that will upset the economy this is the way it will be. On the other hand when the oil companies have to spend billions on hydrogen fueling systems hopefully they invested all of that profit to pay for it all.

Isn't it interesting that some of the refinerys are now in shut down on many of their cookers, so that they can do major overhaul? did someone mention high gas prices? I think I heard someone mention record profits by gasoline companies also. I like near to one of the largest Chevron refinerys in the US. They have several projects going on right now, at such a convienent time.
Maybe it is not the Demo's or the Republicans, as much as big business.
OPEC is not helping much at this time either, but, as usual, given some time, one of those illustrious countries will break rank and sell cheaper.
One needs to analyze it all and still I don't think we can figure it out. But Big Profit is the name of the game.

------------------
Egore

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: I heard on news that places in calif are now $2.18 @ gal.

Where?
< Goes to get the 55 gal drum >

Locally it's 2.33 a gal

[This message has been edited by mcaanda (edited 03-06-2004).]

Wasn't it "Uncle Bush" who was for exploration of Alaska to find cheaper sources of oil? I believe it was the Dems who shot that one down. So we are still forced to buy from our "friends" in the middle east. If we were to stop exporting our own oil and find more sources of it here in our country, maybe the price of oil would drop worldwide when we stopped being the largest consumer of oil from OPEC.

Well, it was "Uncle Bush" who killed research on alternatives. What do you expect from an oil man?

GL

All VP Cheny has to do is tell us what when on in the meeting he had with Big Oil Executives and Ken Lay (aka Kenny Boy). Remember when gas went from $1.10 to $1.30 and the Republicans were screaming for repeal of the 5 cent gas tax they blamed on Clinton. Mightly quiet now. Face it Big Oil contributed to bush, high prices are just his payment for them making him president. bush's $175 million war chest is paid for by higher gas prices. If you like bush then pay for the gas and quit blaming Democrats. Get used to higher gas, low job growth, and exploding deficits. When you put a monkey in the White House, you should expect monkey business.

This will eventually end up in OT, but I'll comment anyway.

It's my understanding/opinion that drilling the ANWR would not significantly decrease the price of oil or the price/availability of gasoline. Estimated crude reserves aren't that high there. Drilling/exploration/transportation to the lower 48 costs would be quite high. Subject for another time I guess.

It doesn't matter who is in the White House. Gas rices will continue to bee volatile, with a steady rise, punctuated by sudden swings upward, and rarely downward.
There will never be a glut of gasoline suplies. Yes, refineries are running at or near capacity. They are stretched to the limit. They have to run at capacity, in order to meet demand, especially in high demand(usage) periods. These are traditionally mid winter and mid summer months-summer because of driving habits during vacations and because the weather is just more conducive to increased driving. Winter, because the same reineries that make gasoline also make heating oil, kerosene, aviation fuel, and diesel. As heating fuel production has to be increased, gasoline production has to curtailed, as equipment usage is shifted from one to another. Cracking towers, pumping facilities, and storage facilities are just part of the shared downstream production sequence. Gas in Calif is always higher for 2 or more reasons. State law requires cleaner burning gas, which is higher in production time and cost, and transportation costs. Calif does have refineries, but lacks enough capacity to supply Calif and neighboring states. Gasoline has to be pipelined into the southwest and west coast to make up the difference. As a matter of fact, some of the gasoline produced in Calif is also pipelined out to Nev and Ariz to ensure they have adequate supplies. It's balancing act, that results in less on hand supplies, and that means demand is higher than supply. In any case where supply is less than demand, the price always goes up-not down. No new refineries of any size have been built in 20-25 yrs, anywhere in the USA. Now, throw in a problem, such as 2 of Calif's Valero refineries having to be shut down last year, because they did not meet Calif's clean air act, and you reallly magnify the problem. Even a pipeline rupture can cause serious problems in a system already stretched to the limits. Calif BTW, leads the nation in both gasoline usage and imported refined gasoline pipelined from Mexico and tanker shipped from S. America.

Do gasoline companys make a huge profit? Sure they do. So does everyone esle who is involved in a situation that has such a limited capacity:supply ratio. An example:
A dry summer and extremely bitter winter results in 2 things to the consumer. Reduced cattle feed stocks and reduced beef and milk production. Supply drops, while demand remains stedy, or even increases. Beef prices go up as a result, and those beef producers who have adequate stocks of feed make big profits.

Let's look at Fiero related stuff. GT tail lights. They are much higher than notchback lights because they are harder to find, and more in demnd. Iron dukes versus a SD4. Not exactly a great compaison, but if SD4s were as abundant as Dukes, the price would be a heck of a lot cheaper. You may say, "Yeah, but these are out of production items". It doesn't matter-any demand that exceeds capacity is also 'out of production'. Remember when computer memory was sky hi? Now, supply is abundant and prices are much more affordable.

That limited refinery capacity is really going to hit hard in a few years, as gasoline demand continues to increase. The oil companies will again get the blame, but it is really our own fault. We have made it extremely costly to build new refiineries, thru environmental concerns. Having spent decades on the gulf coast, I can sympathize with those who don't want a smelly refinery in their localle, but the fact remains that gasoline on the gulf coast is always cheaper and more abundant than anywhere else. Until that 'no new refineries in my hometown' attitude changes, usage decreases, or more people switch to alternative fuels, we will continue to
be at the mercy of hi pump prices.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 03-06-2004).]

well guy's
i live in this great sunny state of CA and like that say you have to pay to play
i am paying up too and not limited to 2.78 cents a gal for 91 at my local shell station
some might say i'm crazy for doing this but what am i to do turn my car into a electric car or wait maybe a propane humm maybe perpane would not be that bad of an idea it's only like 1.19 a gal
come to think of it has anyone ever done this?
but for me i will keep paying the out of this world gas prices and keep driveing the car i love till the price of gas once again goes back down...i heard on the news the other day the reason id that shut down a plant or two for matience so here is me hopeing once again for the gas gods to give up sunny CA guy's a brake and to let us drive the cars we love so much......
later,

WOLF
RED 88 GT
prd # 1212

Gas is currently around $2.30 US here in Canada so its not Bush screwing your around.This is actually quite low compared to what we pay in the summer. Thank the oil companies and our buddies out in the middle east for the high prices. Actually, I would love nothing more than the world to switch over to alternative fuels just so the middle east would be left with a bunch of useless sand and would literally self destruct. Muahahahaha!

quote Originally posted by Indiana_resto_guy: Might try living in Europe some place. I hear that gas prices are at least double if not tripple of what we pay in the states. Anyone across the big water (east or west) have some input on this one?

Yep, at the current exchange rate UK GAS is $7.04 a gallon.
It hurts my pocket to fill my Fiero twice a week.

------------------
Regards,

Paul Taylor, England.
85 GT Notchback, 2.8 V6, 4 speed manual. Custom made Tubular branch exhaust manifolds with true twin 3in exhaust system. No CAT, No EGR. No Crossover pipe. ADS Road Race SuperChip & 160 deg stat. Gen 4 eRam. Poly bushes all round. Lowered 2 inches. 16" alloys with 225/45 rubber. 0-60mph in 5.5 sec.

www.fieroforum.co.uk/Paul85gt.htm

quote Originally posted by loafer87gt: Gas is currently around $2.30 US here in Canada so its not Bush screwing your around.This is actually quite low compared to what we pay in the summer. Thank the oil companies and our buddies out in the middle east for the high prices. Actually, I would love nothing more than the world to switch over to alternative fuels just so the middle east would be left with a bunch of useless sand and would literally self destruct. Muahahahaha!

I've always understood that Canada is pretty much oil independant, and is actually an exporter.

this is SO the WRONG PLACE for this thread...

edit 'cause i used HTML in a UBB world...

[This message has been edited by Jeremiah (edited 03-06-2004).]

quote Originally posted by WingNut - MD: Wasn't it "Uncle Bush" who was for exploration of Alaska to find cheaper sources of oil? I believe it was the Dems who shot that one down. So we are still forced to buy from our "friends" in the middle east. If we were to stop exporting our own oil and find more sources of it here in our country, maybe the price of oil would drop worldwide when we stopped being the largest consumer of oil from OPEC.

Wingnut, you do realize that even if ANWR was opened for oil development the best-case most optimistic estimate of the amount of oil reserves there wouldn't even last the US 12 months, right? There are not enough oil reserves left in the US to keep us going for more than a few years at best, and that's including oil that is locked up geologically such that it would take $50/barrel just to extract it.

It's like cracking open the little glass piggybank when the mortgage payment is due.

JazzMan

You do have to wonder about some of the "experts" when they say how much is left, where it is, how long it will last, etc. When I was in High School (69-74) one of the years our debate topic was on ecology and conservation of natural resources. If you don't know how debate works (worked??), you have to be prepared to argue both sides because you don't know if you're going to argue the affirmative or the negative side of the issue and you have to do the research to support both arguments. Back then, we did it by scouring libraries for books, periodicals, etc., and copying quotes and supporting evidence onto notecards that we could reference during the debate to rebut arguments. (I suppose they use laptops and PDA's now.....). Anyway, a major part of this research was just how long we had before we ran out of natural resources. The most OPTIMISTIC of the experts said there wouldn't be a drop of oil left by 2010 and many were predicting that there would be none left by the Orwellian year of 1984. (It was also commonly reported that there would be mass starvation and food riots world wide before the year 2000 because the Earth could no longer sustain the human population)

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Wingnut, you do realize that even if ANWR was opened for oil development the best-case most optimistic estimate of the amount of oil reserves there wouldn't even last the US 12 months, right? There are not enough oil reserves left in the US to keep us going for more than a few years at best, and that's including oil that is locked up geologically such that it would take $50/barrel just to extract it. It's like cracking open the little glass piggybank when the mortgage payment is due. JazzMan

I've been doing some reading of related research studies and articles in recent months. There seems to be emerging a more consistent picture among experts which I'll suggest in a very rough analogy.

If we talk audio electronics and quote power in watts, RMS watts is the real term to seek. Peak or "music" watts would yield a quite higher number that is better for advertising compelling claims only, and is much more inconsistent from brand to brand.

A compelling argument can be made to the contrary...but it seems like "good" oil is really becoming scarce. By "good" they mean quality and "easy to pump out". The latter is the biggest issue. Large portions of the currently proven reserves are at hard-to-reach points/low yield fields and very expensive to reclaim. Therefore, some experts are saying, we'll pay much more and the world will be feeling scarcities (real) even before 2010. The fast growth of underdevelped economies like China will become a major factor.

No politician is willing to say this, it seems. Better to advertise that they are heroes ready to deal with any challenge if elected. In any event, the solutions are not easy to do, or to swallow for many in our nation.

Me? I think good ol' capitalist inventiveness will kick in before we get to $4/gallon in America and save our seating pads. But that is no excuse to keep polluting our world...ooops yet another O/T subject!

Beno

quote Originally posted by 1MohrFiero: Doesn't this belong in the O/T area?

It certainly doesn't belong in the Tech section.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: I've always understood that Canada is pretty much oil independant, and is actually an exporter.

Canada exports 62% of its crude oil to the US because we lack the capacity to refine it into lighter oil. As such, we buy back the refined oil from the US at a significant markup.Why the Canadian oil companies don't try and become more self sufficient; refining their own crude, is beyond me. Here is a page with some good info on the Canadian oil industry. According to this article, Canada actually has more oil sands than Saudi Arabia. You sure couldn't tell though when you go to the pumps!

Part of the problem with our gas prices is that on top of all the other taxes we have to pay a road tax which is supposed to go towards maintaining our highways. Unfortunately, if you check where the money brought in from this tax actually goes you will find that less than 10% goes towards its intended purpose. The rest is squandered by our politicians and goes god knows where.

Almost forgot the link:

http://www2.nrcan.gc.ca/es/ener2000/online/html/chap3a_e.cfm

[This message has been edited by loafer87gt (edited 03-06-2004).]

quote Originally posted by red wolf: some might say i'm crazy for doing this but what am i to do turn my car into a electric car or wait maybe a propane humm maybe perpane would not be that bad of an idea it's only like 1.19 a gal come to think of it has anyone ever done this? WOLF RED 88 GT prd # 1212

My auto teacher has been seting up propaine and natural gas cars for a long time. it quit expensive to do. but once its done its very clean burning. and expect your engine life to be greatly increased because the fuel is so clean burning.
Another idea that has been thrown around is creating your own still. BY using anything organic such as kitchen scraps the alcohol is basically free. But one down side is it take sabout twice as much alcohol to run a car compaired to fossil fuel. BUT if running up to 20% alcohol is your cafr you get increased gas milage and power. Anything more than that and milage will start to decrease. sounds interesting as an alternitave.
Yu my wonder why im talking about alternitaves. Because we can sit here until the end of time arguing when the oil is going to run out and point fingers of who is making the prices higher. but it will get us no were. I like the raw power of gas gussling sports cars just as much as the next inthusist. But sooner or later were going to have to face it. We need alternatives. probably at the sacrafice of profourmance for right now. until the thecnology permits. I mean c.mon we cant have our cake and eat it too.

well I paid 1.50 here in Oklahoma City today. Yes I am very lucky to have it so low here. I really don't see what the ***** is really about. 10 years ago none of us would ever have imagined that we would be paying more for bottled water than a gallon of gas. All of my friends are bitching about the cost of gas while they hold a 20 oz bottle of $1.50 water. I tell them to turn on a faucet and fill their cars with what the save on their water. Not to get another different debate started on what someone will pay to get water, It just is a stupid fad that everybody has gotten into, that really seems to make me feel like we all have just a little to much money to be bitching to much. Thats just my opinion. Has anyone really died from drinking city water? has bottled water made people live 40 years longer?? What am I missing here? I like a drinking fountain.

Back on the gas thing, I am glad that we are fans of a car that does get good gas milage, so we aren't hit as bad as when we have to fill up our SUV's and such.

Darren

quote Originally posted by Tugboat: Well, it was "Uncle Bush" who killed research on alternatives. What do you expect from an oil man? GL

You moron, the main focus of President Bush's energy policy is the funding of hydrogen-based energy for not only transportation, but power production.

Check the facts before you, just like everybody else in this country, accuses our great president of anything less than he is, the best leader our country has had in over 20 years.

quote Originally posted by loafer87gt: Canada exports 62% of its crude oil to the US Part of the problem with our gas prices is that on top of all the other taxes we have to pay a road tax

Canada IS an exporter of oil, but ALL oil is sold at WORLD PRICE. The same is true of oil produced in the U.S.
So when prices go up because of Middle East cutbacks, so does the price at which we "SELL to OURSELVES".
That's what happens with any commodity in a global market.

------------------
Fiero Fiesta - August 1, 2004 - Calgary, Alberta

3.4L S/C 87 GT www.fierosound.com
2002/2003 World of Wheels Winner &
Multiple IASCA Stereo Award Winner

Yup. Must be Bush's fault. We all know Bush is in charge of OPEC.
Can't be a Democrat's fault... nope, they don't control OPEC like Bush does.

You know, OPEC is a division of Halliburton. Yeah. That's it.

When I was in Oklahoma city we paid between 9 and 11 cents a gallon in the late 60s. Of course our paycheck was only $60-70 @ week.

Propane USED to be a good alternative, we had lots of taxis and like Electric company vehicles using it. Trouble is now the propane is as high, or higher than the gas.

Electric, unless theyre self recharging like Honda, wont help even if all cars were. Then all the power stations would be using it up to make more electric to charge them. And power stations are far more wasteful of fuel than the worst car. Wed have to go to nuclear plants to supply it, and no one will allow one near them.........so theres really no alternative.......just use it up and find a fix when you dont have any more.

quote Originally posted by iluvmacs: You moron, the main focus of President Bush's energy policy is the funding of hydrogen-based energy for not only transportation, but power production. Check the facts before you, just like everybody else in this country, accuses our great president of anything less than he is, the best leader our country has had in over 20 years.

You know, if you call somebody names when you don't know what you're talking about, it doesn't make you look good.

Your memory is shorter than your peter probably is. When Bush got into office he got a bunch of energy company cronies to write his energy policy. It included more drilling for gas and oil (in national parks and roadless wilderness), and more coal fired powerplants. Remember the flap about that? They never have come clean.

From http://www.nrdc.org/media/pressreleases/020327.asp :
"These documents show how the White House task force turned coal and oil company wish lists directly into national policy while ignoring proven technologies that can help us meet our energy needs cleanly and reliably," explained Sharon Buccino, an NRDC senior attorney."

Let's see, he tied aternative energy money to drilling money
http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/text/2003/jan/31/013110269.html

The hydrogen deal has problems too: http://www.cornellsun.com/articles/7455/

I really loved his theory that global warming will reduce heating bills.

Leader?? ROFLOL!!! I think Cheney's in charge.

GL

[This message has been edited by Tugboat (edited 03-06-2004).]

Don’t we get enough of the blame game on T-V? What the hell is this subject doing in tech discussion?

it's not bush and its not america , its OPEC rattling its own sabers by decreasing output....
some say that opec is affraid of running out of resources but honestly their just attacking us on the financial side

plus you have to add in the amount of fuel usage that has increased with military usage
and the fact that many suppliers and distributors in america decreased their demand for fuel for months after 911 "anticipating a decrease in demand" are still skeptical about a lasting recovery "they dont know if we're gonna get hit again"

quote Originally posted by Tugboat: You know, if you call somebody names when you don't know what you're talking about, it doesn't make you look good. Your memory is shorter than your peter probably is.

And comments like this really up your credibility, don't they?

ICELAND!!! That is the key people.

Iceland has a limitless supply of energy: Geothermal, Wind power, Hydro-electric, and during the summer there's nearly 24 hours of solar power.

If you have free energy, you can make hydrogen for free. Internal Combustion engines can run on hydrogen, fuel cells as well, and oil tanker ships can haul it without worrying about spills.

Iceland is the next middle east (in the good way).

Hydrogen is the best way to harness energy. Not batteries. Just as it was said above, batteries have chemicals. If hydrogen leaks, it dissipates so quickly, you don't even realize it.

AND DON'T MENTION THE HINDENBURG!!!!!!! Yet another LIE told by CNN, along with Saddam not having WMD's.

The hindenburg caught on fire because two of the metals used in the shell of the blimp are what we use to make rocket fuel today. Lightning struck the top of the blimp, igniting the metal. Yes the hydrogen burned, but the flames from that lasted a fraction of a second. Want proof? Look at the video of the incident. The flames started up on top of the blimp. Proof that lightning was the cause.

And BTW, Hydrogen's flame is invisible. If you ever see a hydrogen flame, it's because it had organic substances added to make it visible on purpose.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, about CNN and the WMD's... If Saddam didn't have WMD's, then what did he dispurse chemicals with on his own people back in the 80's??? Hope's and Dreams?!?! NO! We know for sure that back in the 80's, he had WMD's. 15,000 dead Iraqi's can't be wrong. Plus, 2 weeks into the war, we found 55 Mig-25 Foxbats outfitted to carry biological weapons. 55 MIG's!!!!!!! That's the grim reaper in my book. Luckily, they never got the chance to take off.

Did he have WMD's in the 90's? Definitley. Did he have them in 2000 and up? Heck yeah. But I think the fact that he formulated a plot to assasinate Bush Sr. back when Clinton first took office is good enough reason to remove Saddam from power, let alone the fact that he's a dictator.

I'm in the military, and I can certainly say that we've been waiting to take him out for a long time.

FUC* CNN!!!!!

You don't know how overjoyed my squadron was when Saddam was captured.

------------------
Airman Michael C Casaceli
Patrol Squadron Ten, United States Navy
1988 Pontiac Fiero 2.5L, soon to be 2.2L Ecotec Turbo (THE PROJECT HAS STARTED!!!)
1988 Oldsmobile Firenza 2.0L non-turbo (R.I.P.my beloved J-body. KIA by a Ford)
1994 Chevy S-10 4.3, it's finally here, and it is gorgeous!